Guild Wars 2

I know its the point of the class mechanic but its why it doesnt work. Every other class has the ability to have so much more versatility depending on what heal utilties and elite to the battle. On rev u get basically 2 choices condi one if u a condi build if not shiro then jalis cus the healing one sux and probably always will cus healing sux in gw2.

Just ask yourself this: if Revenant had access to 3 or even all 4 legends all the time, would he be OP?
It might put him on par with something like a d/d ele imo.

I’m not at all saying they should give revenant access to more than 2 legends, that’s just how UP his utilities (coupled with the energy mechanic) are imo.

Being able to choose from a small list of utility abilities for each Legend would be a huge boon, and wouldn’t necessarily be overpowered, though it could be. It would go a long ways for customization.

My impressions after the BWE:

Swords:
-Unrelenting assault needs one of three things: 1 evasion, 2 a damage increase, or 3, the possibility to cancel the skill by moving. Right now it’s just too risky to use for what you get in return.

-All around damage is too low. This was presented as the damage dealing set of a dps focused legend (Shiro). I expected this to be on par with other professions top dps builds. In fact, I thought Revenant’s damage should be even higher, considered that the whole profession gives up variety to fully specialize on the role.

Staff
-Still not enough perceived damage. Probably the weapon is too slow? Not sure.
-Activation times are too long and healing/buffing is too low and clunky (orbs) to be really useful as support.
-Surge of the Mists needs invulnerability
-Staff could’ve been amazing. The animations are beautiful, the skill concepts are good but the weapon is not there yet.

Shiro Legend/Devastation line
-Riposting Shadows costs too much energy
-Assassin’s Presence should give something to the Revenant as well.
-Impossible Odds is perfect and by that I mean it is too strong :P
It’s perfect because Revenant can’t pick his utilities, so the ones available to him should be exceptionally good and fit multiple builds. Impossible Odds does just that.

Ventari
-I can’t stress enough how important this is: Ventari needs the tablet to spawn on Legend activation.
-Having the tablet to automatically follow behind you would be good too, but that’s a quality of life issue more than a mandatory requirement.

Energy mechanic
-Still not the best. Weapon skills use too much of it, same with utilities.
-A cooldown for weapon skills is enough, no need for an energy cost on top of that.
-Give a way to increase energy regeneration speed/reduce energy costs through traits.

Traits/Skills
-The class needs more cheap and instant stun breakers (obviously on cd), or stun breaking passives.
I’m not saying that every Legend should have one, but being forced to take the Invocation line just to have it removes customization options. Also having to swap Legends to break stuns is not the best, in my opinion :P

Class as a whole
-Legends feel too…stand alone. We use 2 of them but it’s really hard to have them fit together.
-Still lacks damage
-Energy and Endurance regeneration options are severely lacking.
-If we can’t customize our utilities, every single one of them has to be good and adaptable to multiple builds, right now it is not the case.
-Revenant feels too squishy for a heavy armor profession, especially if you spec for damage. I created different beta professions to check this (same armor stats and runes, dps build and all) and Revenant felt less powerful and frail in comparison, even in the original GW2 zones.

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

zorokai.1486:

I personally think the Revenant needs a skill that can help mobility out of combat – its soo slow – no escape capabilities at all.

I’m not entirely sure it needs any more mobility. Shiro has a stun, a gap closer, and one fairly decent disengage. Add staff 5 and, yeah, it’s pretty mobile.

On the other hand, why does Phase Traversal need a target? Adjust the skill tooltip and make it like Warrior’s Bull’s Charge. Hell, it already shares the animation. Sword 4 is also a good disengage, but doesn’t help people that don’t use sword. I do think it needs an invul, but that could be solved with Glint/shield elite spec.

I’ve gotten used to self-blasting swiftness using mace and Legendary Inspiration. I actually think it’s kinda fun.

zorokai.1486:

Unrelenting Assault needs to give user like evade, invun, or stab. Imo otherwise skill looks nice.

I think the Displacement needs to be looked at when in downed state – By this i mean many times i’ve displaced someone who was a foot of two infront of me and the displacement puts them basically more ontop of me. I think it should be displaced away from the downed player at a random location rather than a random location ontop.

The randomness can be a double-edged sword, and I’m warming up to it. I’ve displaced people onto terrain lower than me that makes them unable to get back up to me. I’ve also displaced them straight into their deaths on Skyhammer, and the middle of a nearby melee that doesn’t end well for them. But I’ve also displaced them right on top of me mid-stomp, which, yeah, doesn’t help.

As much as i would like to agree – the staff is still just too weak to even bother picking up alongside SS. Using the staff just for the mobility seems unproductive (double close quarter combat weapons also puts you at a massive disadvantage) even if you use gap closer (also the Gap closer (Phase traversal) atm – not sure if its a bug – only covers like 200 distance without a target it does not achieve its 1200. So realistically its pretty bad for an escape.
I do think Phase traversal needs to be like bulls charge that would be much better (multi functional).

Jade winds for a stun is Terrible – its so telegraphed that anyone with half a brain could dodge with ease.

only escape (Riposting shadows) 35 energy – you’ll be lucky to pull off 2 of these in a fight (as you use energy to attack.

As for swiftness – having Jalis for the swiftness – is nice but then the rest of the skills are pretty jank… Forced Engagement – 2s taunt, 2s slow, 50 energy (why is it as much as an ulti for something so bad?) Ulti (5s, 50% damage reduction) maybe useful, 5s maybe to run? but again conditions will kill you, + you’d need like 75 energy minimum for that to be any good – for the inspiring reinforcement stab – jalis ulti – + 5 for heal.

I dunno right now there’s not a lot of synergy with the legendary heroes, also its kinda annoying you cant pick what utilities to run – its set in stone for you. No choice whatsoever… that bums me out.

The class needs a bit more Stun breaks, and for me i think the Swords needs to be a bit faster if the damage stay this low. (in general all the weapons are lacking any damage even as a pure zerker SS you rely on the last hit on the sword skills for Vulnerability to even deal any damage) – got laughed at in full zerker gear hitting 700 normally… on a medium target golem.

Dont want to start a new threat since i think it is better to have feedback in only one.
This may be long After 15 hours of Rev testing in PvE, sPvP and WvW here are my thoughts.

- The class is overall slow for melee, no real option for swiftness or passive 25% movement which is really needed. Blast finishers to get swift in dwarf or burning Shiro 3 to move faster is not good enough.

-No CC. The luck of CC and CC resistance is really big. Needs options for cripple AND Imobilize. Needs more reliable option for stability not only from dodge rolling.

-Synergy between weapons/traits/specializations is really not there, besides sword nothing else exists. Need more Weapon traits (e.g. reduced cd+something special for each weapon).

Example of synergy from warrior sword: leap+cripple+immobilize+double leap finisher, aka synergy from passive/active traits and specialization.

-Energy. ALL energy cost from weapon skills AND Heal skills should be removed, having cd is more then enough. Also i really feel the class should start with 100% power and start burning it and afterwards worry about management, either that or reduce the cost of everything (elite skills cost 50!?).

As it is now you use 1-2 weapon skills and 1 utility and you are pretty much burned, this is not working well.

-Furry access from utilities and/or weapon attacks, not stance swap. It is really simple, stance swap should be optional for stun break or to use a different skill depending on situation NOT mandatory to dps (see synergy?)

-2 stances i feel are not enough, having 3 would be ideal imo. Ele has 4 attunements and Engi can have up to 4 kits to use skills.

-overall dmg is really low for power builds and condition builds are mixed and weird.

Sword 1 needs dmg increase, sword 2 needs to be 5 targets remove chill and make it cripple, sword 3 needs imobilize and to hit only 1 target, on top it needs evade AND be able to cancel it with dodge, dmg deffinatelly needs to be more.

Sword off 4 needs 1 more sec block, sword 6 imo should be changed to a pull not the complicated skill it is atm.

Mace 1 needs to be range attack, 300 or 600 or 900. As it is everything in condition set can be used in range EXCEPT your main attacks…? Mace 2 looks fine, Mace 3 does really good dmg and its better in a power build then condi.

Axe 4 does really good dmg for power build but you need it for cond?Axe 5 needs bigger area to pull its too short and really easy to avoid it.

While im at the weapon comments, why we cant have mace/mace or axe/axe?

Specializations

Shiro
Heal needs to be changed bad. Make it closer/similar to Necro signet, passive life steal with attacks and when used a small heal or something.
teleport (2nd utility) needs a 1sec stun add to it, you port to target and pretty much walks away before u attack.
3rd utility is draining you really bad (see energy issues)
Elite…cant even use it with the energy costs atm.

Demon
Heal is really low, imo needs more base heal.
1st utility, you draw conditions, get resistance and then…?die!? needs a second use to send those conditions to enemy.
2nd utility is ok-ish
3rd utility you teleport and add 1 torment or more depending on your conditions with a huge energy cost, maybe make this one send conditions after you use 1?
Elite is ok-ish but needs more conditions to be transfered or interval changed, its not bad, its not great either.

Dwarf
Heal is okish could need a bit more base
1st utility, the only decent one the class has imo
2nd utility is really really really bad, its a waste of energy to use it. Make it AoE and add a decent CC on it and maybe it will work.
3rd utility Hammer dmg is low , maybe add a third hammer? increase the dmg?
Elite needs stability while casting it.

Overall the class is not bad, but it is still far apart from competive or even close to the ones we have atm. Does not bring something new to the table and everything it does all other classes do it better. :/

Since it’s a new class, I’ve not mastered Revenant like I have Mesmer, but I’ll give you the best feedback I can. I went with the stock trait line you spawn in with, and ended up using Hammer, Sword/Axe, and Shiro and Jalis.

The damage this time around was much better. I was very happy with the hammer’s damage. And with all the aoe in the story, I really ended up needing it, too, and the range it came with. Hammer’s great! Love it!

Duel swords ended up being, surprisingly, too slow. I also prefer to shadowstep to my enemies rather than pull them to me, so the second sword just didn’t fit my playstyle. That’s why I swapped to axe. I like its immediate shadowstep-to-enemy, and the damage it does on its last skill. In the end, my sword/axe combo did more damage more quickly, and I immediately started having more fun.

Since I was learning Shiro, I didn’t swap stances; I stayed on Shiro, still survived well, and knew Jalis was there if I needed to tank a lot better.

Melee damage was good. Running Revenant this beta weekend felt a lot better than the first. I know I still need more time on it to finish forming a complete opinion, but I hope that helps! But I still have to say, I enjoyed Chronomancer more, though I could be biased. Revenant’s gonna make it into my top 3 favorites, where mesmer is 1 and thief is 2. It hasn’t placed itself quite yet. Need more time to master.

First off… I’m loving the Revenant.

However, here are some of my issues with the current state after doing a lot of Stronghold games.

- The skill rotations on Revenant are REALLY slow. Not only do you have cooldowns, but you also have energy management. You can’t just flow your skills like you can do other skills.

- There aren’t many gap closers that are reliable as much as guardians and warriors have with teleports, swiftness, and ranged CC’s. Again, the energy+CD double disadvantage might have something to do with it.

- The damage output is kinda lack luster. I can go glass cannon, but I get downed faster than a light armor elementalist. Sustained damage is ok, but other classes get enough condi clears and escapes that counter because of the two points I just made above.

- Ventari’s Tablet is fun in PVP, but WAY too slow to do anything meaningful. It takes too much of my time to re-position the tablet for the fast-pace flow of sPVP with cast times and ICD.

- Degeneration skills are costly and make no sense if you don’t have anyway for energy regeneration. If you are going to work off GW1 style energy management, you need some sort of upkeep. If you use one of the degen skills, you won’t have energy for any other skills, and then you have to swap legends, forcing you to now fight in your secondary legend and taking off the degen skills.

I may have some more input later, and this is all imho.

Okay i will say that Revenant i had the most fun with playing with Shiro, the thing is that i think Shiro might be a little to powerful on the leeching/live drain side as i’m tanking and is like i’m not take any dmg, but see the green numbers, and i did die the dungeon because i was getting tired with the about of mobs i was fighting. though the 3 skill should take off the heal hits it seemed that i only took 3 off.

Still low survivability imo.

The Legendary Demon Stance Elite, Embrace the Darkness, applies torment to the player in pulses….. but only applies resistance once (if traited).

The elite should re-apply resistance as often as torment is applied, otherwise this elite will be so situational that it will never get any use.

Even in pvp when the circumstances where you will get stacked with conditions actually can arise, the measly amount of resistance applied does not even give you a chance to survive long enough to use them against your foes.

Lich form, Plague form, Rampage, Tornado, etc…. all reapply stability every few seconds…

This elite needs to reapply resistance in the same fashion.

The Corruption Grandmaster traits need to be looked at.

Diabolic Inferno is 4seconds of PBAoE Burn on a 10 second cooldown that has a gating criteria of requiring you to use an Elite skill. The Elite skills take 50 Energy and aren’t the kind of things it seems you’ll be able to spam every 10 seconds making this trait terrible. It would be decent (Dhuumfire like) if it applied burning on your target when you hit it with a 10 second cooldown, AoE or not.

Maniacal Persistance increases crit chance 2% per second until you crit when it resets. Given that the number of attacks a typical character throws out in combat, a reasonable expectation is this bonus will be 4-8% most of the time, probably closer to 4, and we’ve already heard that a GM trait giving 10% crit while under Fury is woefully underpowered and will be bumped to 20%. 4-8% static crit chance for a GM trait (in the condition tree) is terrible, please reconsider.

Pulsating Pestilance has a 15% chance to copy conditions on you to nearby (240) foes with a 15 second cooldown. While interesting in concept, in implementation it is also very conditional and woefully underpowered. With no gate on the number of conditions to trigger, this is entirely RNG and very likely the majority of the time it will trigger with very few conditions on you and/or no enemies nearby and then go on a 15 second cooldown. Its flavorful and terrible, not good in any sense.

Please give us at least one GM Corruption trait that has general application across situations and game modes that a player using conditions would want to take. I’d take a static +100 condition damage over any of these traits, heck, I’d take a second chance and cooldown on Rampant Vex, the first Corruption Minor over any of these GM traits.

I tested Mallyx with Settler’s, and I found it survivable in the Silverwaste/Demo areas. It’s just that it seems like there are two weapons that give conditions, and few traits that would support a condi build.

Why are people upset about stunbreaks? You can stunbreak every 10 seconds on legend swap and there’s an extra one on Shiro. I won’t count the Jalis elite because it’s… well, it’s crap. There are many other classes and builds that can’t stunbreak that often, Medi guard being one that I play often that immediately springs to mind. Ranger can’t. Most Warrior builds can’t. Most Ele builds can’t. Necro? LOL.

Thief, engi, mesmer are exceptions, and even then it’s about on par.

Nice to see how many people took time to give some feedback and trying to improve this class
Hopefully someone at A-Net will see some of the mentioned points.
After further testing of Rev and other classes i also think Rev is pretty kitten slow. With S/S i would like to feel like a heavier thief cracking skulls. But for me it feels more like a reaper without a GS ^^
One more bug i had while going through the beginning of beta and defending the fort, I used sword#3 while my foe was running away ending with me somehow clipping between sand and a wall, becoming stuck in it. Maybe i was just unlucky but i think this could happen more often as soon as Rev gets fully into dungeons and stuff.

I couldn’t play as much as I wanted this weekend, but I have some scattered feedback for the revenant:
-For Shiro, Precision Strike is a little underwhelming. I didn’t find myself using it a whole lot: even as a snare with the chill effect, I preferred to just use Unrelenting Assault to chase down enemies. Maybe making this a whirling attack with higher DPS would make it more effective.
-For Shiro: the auto attack doesn’t seem to fit in with the overall theme of the legend. It might just be that the animation isn’t the frenzy of blades that I imagined, but I feel as if the auto attack slows down the flow of the Shiro legend.
-For Shiro: I love love love Unrelenting Assault. It’s pretty. It’s deadly. However, making it an evade might make it even sweeter.
-For Shiro: I wasn’t a huge fan of Enchanted Daggers: it fit with the theme, but it just seemed too weak in terms of healing.
-For Malyx: I’m glad the casting times were decreased. It felt a lot better to play overall, and it was pretty fun switching between Shiro and Malyx.
-Stray observation: I remember reading a blog post about the revenant that said that sometimes the legends will speak to the player. I noticed that a little when I invoked them, but it was infrequent. I would love to see each legend speaking out more often, even during combat, to enhance the thematics of the profession. We’re piggybacking on the powers of some very dangerous legends: I’d love to hear them speak their mind!
Overall, I’m loving the feel of the Revenant. It’s shaping up really well!

In few words, i think there is a general Energy cost issue on revenant

Ventari really needs more support added to his rep in the form of buffs. Aegis, protection, weakness on enemies; things like that. Staff is a great weapon, with of course the #2 skill still being somewhat worthless.

Shiro is cool, but as has been said, #3 gets broken too easily, especially given how valuable a resource energy is.

As it is now, nothing can replace the group support that a guardian provides, which IMO is a huge problem for guards who want to do dragon hunter builds.

Grazeden.2954:

Also can we think about where Rev fits into the game atm ? In dungeon meta they are literally useless , they have no viable utilities and besides the trait that spreads ferocity , no real traits that give anything in a partywide scenario, they have no reflects , no invuln , no real speed boosts , and besides the 2 on Shiro , no mobility. I really want to like the Rev and I want to make it my main . But at this point in the game it makes no sense I don’t feel like it offers anything to the current game type and the entire game meta isn’t going to change to include Rev into it. I appreciate the Devs effort to make a different kind of class , but I think it was implemented wrong. Instead of something great , we ended up with a class that has no solo , group or pvp capabilities

Rev has great Party Support, i don’t know which Profession you played. Ventari’s Bubble lasts up to 20 seconds and blocks projectiles, i saved my Party more than once with it in Fractals. He has AoE Condi Removal on demand with Ventari and Staff. This makes stacking to remove Mai Trins Shield a cakewalk instead of dieing to 20 Stacks of Bleeding.

You know? If you want to Support with Revenant you should take the Support Tools instead of Camping in Shiro and complaining that you can not Support your Party.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

The Legendary Demon Stance Elite, Embrace the Darkness, applies torment to the player in pulses….. but only applies resistance once (if traited).

The elite should re-apply resistance as often as torment is applied, otherwise this elite will be so situational that it will never get any use.

Even in pvp when the circumstances where you will get stacked with conditions actually can arise, the measly amount of resistance applied does not even give you a chance to survive long enough to use them against your foes.

Lich form, Plague form, Rampage, Tornado, etc…. all reapply stability every few seconds…

This elite needs to reapply resistance in the same fashion.

The torment hits for 40 damage points when walking, and giving perma resistance to revenant will make him immune to condi builds, and being capable to dodge everything with Shiro…

Honestly I am overwhelmed playing a brand new insta 80 profession with multiple legend and weapon swaps. I would have play one from level 1 to 80 to get a good idea of what is going on but I did try mainly vent and shiro.

I went full Bezerker dual swords and had fun. I loved sword 1 AA and sword 3. The other were “ok” 4 needs to be like mesmer sword 4 and have a secondary attack. 5 would be fun in pvp.

I will roll a Rev at HOT launch and play but not as a main. I am too invested in my Thief, Guardian and Mesmer to truly justify going Rev, especially since I play casual.

I really want to sit down on my own time and level him, and figure this profession out. I can say from what I played that from the previous Rev to this BWE1 there was an improvement, but its not up to the standards of the already established 8 professions and now their further elite professions.

I played Revenant with Hammer & Sword/Axe in this beta. The mace just isn’t my thing and while the off-hand sword has good defensive capabilities it’s not that great for dps imo. Over-all I think evaluating Revenant is really hard because this class was really made to be everything. A rev can be a healer, a condi, a dps, a tank…

With S/A, Knight’s Armor and Trinkets and Scholar Runes the damage and survivability were both ok, though I still think that the damage of a dps Rev should be higher. You can’t play the class as a complete zerker because then you die instantly but the damage is still only good and not great. I personally have the feeling that my full zerker Ele and Warrior do a lot more damage than a full zerker Revenant. The Reaper was better as well.

The same goes for full tank. The Rev has a higher base HP than the Guardian, but a Guard with pvt armor feels a lot more tanky than a Revenant with the same armor and runes. I can’t say why, but to me there is just something off about the Revenant…

Maybe it’s the fact that you have one set of armor and one build but two legends that don’t necessarily work well with each other. Ventari and the dwarfen one fit together maybe, but even Shiro and the condi legend don’t mix that well in my opinion.

Krysard.1364:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

The Legendary Demon Stance Elite, Embrace the Darkness, applies torment to the player in pulses….. but only applies resistance once (if traited).

The elite should re-apply resistance as often as torment is applied, otherwise this elite will be so situational that it will never get any use.

Even in pvp when the circumstances where you will get stacked with conditions actually can arise, the measly amount of resistance applied does not even give you a chance to survive long enough to use them against your foes.

Lich form, Plague form, Rampage, Tornado, etc…. all reapply stability every few seconds…

This elite needs to reapply resistance in the same fashion.

The torment hits for 40 damage points when walking, and giving perma resistance to revenant will make him immune to condi builds, and being capable to dodge everything with Shiro…

Self-applied torment is affected by your own stats, including duration and damage.

When you aren’t running condi dmg its not a big deal, but when you are…. (which is when you would want to be running Legendary Demon Stance in the first place)….. you are literally dealing more damage to yourself after using your elite.

The non-elite necro utility skill, plague signet, is 50x better than this elite skill.

If you have enough condis on you where condi matching might actually be a threat…. and you are running around trying to copy the conditions you have on yourself onto foes without cleansing them…. you are going to pop.

Either change the condition copy to transfer….. or pulse resistance otherwise this skill is literally never going to get used.

A necro pretty much destroys any condition dmg build in pvp by using one – sometimes two skills. which cleanses all of the negative condis and gives them to an enemy player.

A revenant gets “I’m going to try and bring you down with me, condi player…. halfe assed style!” the elite.

I love the animations on Unrelenting Assault but it really really needs an evade to it!! Not too mention it sometimes stops when it hits a wall. Other than that I’m enjoying my time in Assassin stance.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Krysard.1364:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

The Legendary Demon Stance Elite, Embrace the Darkness, applies torment to the player in pulses….. but only applies resistance once (if traited).

The elite should re-apply resistance as often as torment is applied, otherwise this elite will be so situational that it will never get any use.

Even in pvp when the circumstances where you will get stacked with conditions actually can arise, the measly amount of resistance applied does not even give you a chance to survive long enough to use them against your foes.

Lich form, Plague form, Rampage, Tornado, etc…. all reapply stability every few seconds…

This elite needs to reapply resistance in the same fashion.

The torment hits for 40 damage points when walking, and giving perma resistance to revenant will make him immune to condi builds, and being capable to dodge everything with Shiro…

Self-applied torment is affected by your own stats, including duration and damage.

When you aren’t running condi dmg its not a big deal, but when you are…. (which is when you would want to be running Legendary Demon Stance in the first place)….. you are literally dealing more damage to yourself after using your elite.

The non-elite necro utility skill, plague signet, is 50x better than this elite skill.

If you have enough condis on you where condi matching might actually be a threat…. and you are running around trying to copy the conditions you have on yourself onto foes without cleansing them…. you are going to pop.

Either change the condition copy to transfer….. or pulse resistance otherwise this skill is literally never going to get used.

A necro pretty much destroys any condition dmg build in pvp by using one – sometimes two skills. which cleanses all of the negative condis and gives them to an enemy player.

A revenant gets “I’m going to try and bring you down with me, condi player…. halfe assed style!” the elite.

The elite is really strong, honestly. Even tears apart d/d ele’s.

Recursivision.2367:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Krysard.1364:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

The Legendary Demon Stance Elite, Embrace the Darkness, applies torment to the player in pulses….. but only applies resistance once (if traited).

The elite should re-apply resistance as often as torment is applied, otherwise this elite will be so situational that it will never get any use.

Even in pvp when the circumstances where you will get stacked with conditions actually can arise, the measly amount of resistance applied does not even give you a chance to survive long enough to use them against your foes.

Lich form, Plague form, Rampage, Tornado, etc…. all reapply stability every few seconds…

This elite needs to reapply resistance in the same fashion.

The torment hits for 40 damage points when walking, and giving perma resistance to revenant will make him immune to condi builds, and being capable to dodge everything with Shiro…

Self-applied torment is affected by your own stats, including duration and damage.

When you aren’t running condi dmg its not a big deal, but when you are…. (which is when you would want to be running Legendary Demon Stance in the first place)….. you are literally dealing more damage to yourself after using your elite.

The non-elite necro utility skill, plague signet, is 50x better than this elite skill.

If you have enough condis on you where condi matching might actually be a threat…. and you are running around trying to copy the conditions you have on yourself onto foes without cleansing them…. you are going to pop.

Either change the condition copy to transfer….. or pulse resistance otherwise this skill is literally never going to get used.

A necro pretty much destroys any condition dmg build in pvp by using one – sometimes two skills. which cleanses all of the negative condis and gives them to an enemy player.

A revenant gets “I’m going to try and bring you down with me, condi player…. halfe assed style!” the elite.

The elite is really strong, honestly. Even tears apart d/d ele’s.

lol, no.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Recursivision.2367:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Krysard.1364:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

The Legendary Demon Stance Elite, Embrace the Darkness, applies torment to the player in pulses….. but only applies resistance once (if traited).

The elite should re-apply resistance as often as torment is applied, otherwise this elite will be so situational that it will never get any use.

Even in pvp when the circumstances where you will get stacked with conditions actually can arise, the measly amount of resistance applied does not even give you a chance to survive long enough to use them against your foes.

Lich form, Plague form, Rampage, Tornado, etc…. all reapply stability every few seconds…

This elite needs to reapply resistance in the same fashion.

The torment hits for 40 damage points when walking, and giving perma resistance to revenant will make him immune to condi builds, and being capable to dodge everything with Shiro…

Self-applied torment is affected by your own stats, including duration and damage.

When you aren’t running condi dmg its not a big deal, but when you are…. (which is when you would want to be running Legendary Demon Stance in the first place)….. you are literally dealing more damage to yourself after using your elite.

The non-elite necro utility skill, plague signet, is 50x better than this elite skill.

If you have enough condis on you where condi matching might actually be a threat…. and you are running around trying to copy the conditions you have on yourself onto foes without cleansing them…. you are going to pop.

Either change the condition copy to transfer….. or pulse resistance otherwise this skill is literally never going to get used.

A necro pretty much destroys any condition dmg build in pvp by using one – sometimes two skills. which cleanses all of the negative condis and gives them to an enemy player.

A revenant gets “I’m going to try and bring you down with me, condi player…. halfe assed style!” the elite.

The elite is really strong, honestly. Even tears apart d/d ele’s.

lol, no.

Okay, your right. Those ele’s were dying to fall damage.

But seriously, between shiro heal and malyx elite. Massive damage.
Was consistently winning duels running sword/axe and staff. Retribution, Invocation/Corruption, and Devastation with shiro and malyx.

Outside 1v1, wasn’t performing quite as well.

The build I have been using is Sword/Axe||Hammer with Shiro and Ventari. It actually feels like a really fun build with lots of management and potential.

However, there were a few things I noticed:

1. Ventari stance is reeeeally awkward to first enter. The tablet should just be automatically summoned at your location when you enter the stance for a few reasons. One, it would simply feel smoother. It’s awkward to swap legends, use a skill, and then use whatever skill I actually wanted. Two, Ventari is the only legend with a time and energy tax to actually use. This is really rather dumb. Three, the tablet summons at your location anyway.

Actually, I’d like to see the whole “summon tablet” thing go away entirely. Don’t make the elite destroy the tablet (it’s not strong enough for the tax anyway). If you leave the leash range of the tablet, have it snap back to your position like minions or pets do.

2. Hammer 3 can actually be used as a dodge if timed well. It does actually move you. I can see better Revenants spotting an allied water field and using Hammer 3 to get a chunk of healing from 1200 range away and possibly avoiding something at the same time. Keep it!

3. Shiro energy costs seem a bit high, especially on the evade. The healing skill also really needs to lose its ICD.

4. Sword 2 is pathetic. About the only use I found for it was interrupting teragriff charges.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

3. Shiro energy costs seem a bit high, especially on the gap closer. The healing skill also really needs to lose its ICD.

Shiro’s gap closer is almost absurdly cheap. after a fresh swap you can probably pull it off three times back to back. 20 is barely more than some of the weapon skills.

I had a lot of fun with the revenant. I loved the swords and the shout when you go into demon stance was hilarious; it made me laugh every time I used it (and I used it because it made me laugh).

A few issues with the weapons I saw were:

Sword3: if your target was next to an obstacle or wall or something, the attack would cancel out due to pathing issues, I suppose. When this happened, you didn’t get the might and so on and did no damage.

Sword5: Didn’t always seem to work. I didn’t see a pattern on when it would fail, but it was not consistent.

Hammer3: felt a little too slow and sometimes I couldn’t really tell what happened and if I succeeded on using it well or not.

The Mace and offhand thingie didn’t seem to synergise very well since they had different ranges. I liked the look of the effects, though.

Overall, though, I had a lot of fun playing the new class. Looking forward to more.

Recursivision.2367:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

3. Shiro energy costs seem a bit high, especially on the gap closer. The healing skill also really needs to lose its ICD.

Shiro’s gap closer is almost absurdly cheap. after a fresh swap you can probably pull it off three times back to back. 20 is barely more than some of the weapon skills.

Sorry, got the energy costs mixed up for gap closer and evade. The evade could probably use a cost of 30 instead of 35.

Alxemist.8374:

- The class is overall slow for melee, no real option for swiftness or passive 25% movement which is really needed.

-No CC. The luck of CC and CC resistance is really big. Needs options for cripple AND Imobilize. Needs more reliable option for stability not only from dodge rolling.

-Synergy between weapons/traits/specializations is really not there, besides sword nothing else exists. Need more Weapon traits (e.g. reduced cd+something special for each weapon).

Example of synergy from warrior sword: leap+cripple+immobilize+double leap finisher, aka synergy from passive/active traits and specialization.

-Energy. ALL energy cost from weapon skills AND Heal skills should be removed, having cd is more then enough. Also i really feel the class should start with 100% power and start burning it and afterwards worry about management, either that or reduce the cost of everything (elite skills cost 50!?).

As it is now you use 1-2 weapon skills and 1 utility and you are pretty much burned, this is not working well.

-Furry access from utilities and/or weapon attacks, not stance swap. It is really simple, stance swap should be optional for stun break or to use a different skill depending on situation NOT mandatory to dps (see synergy?)

-overall dmg is really low for power builds and condition builds are mixed and weird.

Sword 1 needs dmg increase, sword 2 needs to be 5 targets remove chill and make it cripple, sword 3 needs imobilize and to hit only 1 target, on top it needs evade AND be able to cancel it with dodge, dmg deffinatelly needs to be more.

Sword off 4 needs 1 more sec block, sword 6 imo should be changed to a pull not the complicated skill it is atm.

Shiro
Heal needs to be changed bad. Make it closer/similar to Necro signet, passive life steal with attacks and when used a small heal or something.
teleport (2nd utility) needs a 1sec stun add to it, you port to target and pretty much walks away before u attack.
3rd utility is draining you really bad (see energy issues)
Elite…cant even use it with the energy costs atm.

Overall the class is not bad, but it is still far apart from competitive or even close to the ones we have atm. Does not bring something new to the table and everything it does all other classes do it better. :/

Quoted this as I feel it aligns with my experience. I’m also too lazy to type this much!

Things that I just thought phase traversal shouldn’t need a target, and maybe the initial move could be a little longer kinda like riposting shadows because I used that mainly like burning retreat. I did get warp from, i’ll say the wurm event, site 4 to site 3 when working on the explosive event, which I though was kinda funny, would’ve take that out though, kinda wish I had my tag on love watching my tag jump around with skill 3. Ooo yea make Jade wind stronger against, I think elite + mobs, but I know Champs weren’t really effected against Jade Wind, maybe should apply petrify them instead of Daze for 3s. Also, I agree with a later post that demon stance elite should apply Resistance with each pulse maybe so with pain absorption making each condition applied a little longer and I will say a stronger resistance for each condition absorbed. I would say not really Appling to the revenant, but mainly because of it, more armor sets are needed, I was having fun with Carrion stat equipment, but it seemed that I wanted dmg more than condie dmg, just to have that build diversity.

Kydar Schattendolch.6879:

General: Give Rev in each legend 5 utilitys to choose from….so it’s in line with other professions (20 Skills) ans theres more variability in the builds.

Hammerguard.9834:

Kydar Schattendolch.6879:

General: Give Rev in each legend 5 utilitys to choose from….so it’s in line with other professions (20 Skills) ans theres more variability in the builds.

So what would be the point of choosing 2 legends and so of having 20 utility skills at the same time? You basically want the same freedom of other classes plus the advantage of 2 custom skill sets.

The point of revenant is that you don’t pick your skills but just your legends with 2 skillsets set in stone. Because of this “handicap” you have a double number of skills to choose from during the fight, and so energy to avoid spam. It’s a chain you can’t break.

And what’s the matter with the NUMBER of skills? What really matters is the quality.
You can’t use all of them anyway.

OMG, Kidel. Get a clue. You keep thinking the wrong thing in every thread. Whenever people ask for more utilities they mean that each legend has their own set of 5 utilities locked for that legend only. Nobody wants universal utilities available for every legend. That would completely defeat the purpose of Revenant.

When in demon stance, for example, you have a choice of 5 utilities to use instead of the forced 3 they have now. None of those utilities will be available to any other stance. Instead, those other stances will also have their own set of 5 utilities to choose from.

This is the best thing that could happen for Revenant.

I did rather enjoy the beta, and the revenant especially. however, I think a few things could use a little work

the Sword 3 – Unrelenting Assault – could use a little work. my favourite skill by far, it was still a little lacking. the lack of any sort of evade means it’s easy to die when using it, and since it can be hard to keep track when using it (and the automatic target selection), it’s a high-risk move that more than often doesn’t pay off. add to this that the damage feels a little weak, and I find the only reason to us it is for the stunning visuals. in terms of improvements, it could benefit from:
• Evade – would remove some of the risk, such as being melted when the auto-targeting jumps to the guy in the center of 18 AoEs
• Cancel – if not the above, the ability to cancel the skill when things inevitably turn sour would be helpful.
• Damage Increase – it’s a more reasonable risk if there’s a reward to it.
• Progress/Casting bar – it’d be nice to see how close to done the skill is.

Shiro as a whole (and I include S/S in this a little too) is, as I understand, supposed to be a glass cannon. as the DPS legend, that makes sense. however, even on full berserker’s armour, I felt a lot more glass than cannon. he has no real survivability, and the DPS just isn’t enough to outfight enemies – especially the newer mobs.

Enchanted Daggers – Shiro’s heal, feels weak. Thieves have a similar skill, Signet of Malice, but in my near 3 years as a thief, I’ve never used it for more than a few minutes without switching to a more useful heal. however, on Shiro, we’re stuck with it, and while thematically appropriate, it just doesn’t have the mechanics to be useful. (I’d say something like a mist warp backwards with a heal would be more appropriate, but that’s just an off-the-top-of-my-head thought.)

a few skills felt like they got targeting all wrong:

- Surge of the Mists, if not aimed at the targeted enemy, would benefit massively from a targeting direction like that of the Warrior’s Whirlwind Attack. It’s the only skill I know of that requires me to orient my character physically, which is odd.

- Unrelenting assault’s short range kept catching me out, but the worst part was where I’d get a full cooldown when the enemy was out of range. or, occasionally, I’d get off one attack and then I’d stop. this didn’t help the above-mentioned issues with the skill.

- phase traversal could be a targeted thing, though this is more “I’d like” than “this need”

on top of this, while I like energy – and the toggle draining skills – I feel the mix of energy and cooldowns gives a stuttery feel – it’s much more difficult to get a flowing rotation going, as many other classes do. plus, starting a fight on 50% energy means you suffer from having less energy, or you have to hold back on using skills to refill. I can understand this happening as a fight progresses – that’s the point. but at the start of a fight it’s just crippling to the opening burst/prep.

also, on a slightly more general note – and feel free to direct me to where this belongs:

as was highlighted by Surge of the Mists – it’s ridiculously easy for a player character to be knocked over an edge, while enemies seemingly can’t be. I’ve been knocked of cliffs by enemy attacks, by simple misclicks, or even by my own attacks (Surge of the Mists is one example, but I simply can’t run Dagger/Dagger thief on some map areas due to risk of fall damage) on top of this, Player-based knockbacks and enemy charges never do the same. it’s like there’s some sort of invisible wall around ledges, which enemies can’t be pushed over. it’d be nice if these walls applied to us in combat too.

Sword 3 skill. Very cool animation, extremely fun skill to use. Huge down side is more then once, I started combat with it, and before it was done moving around, I was dead. I was hitting gates in WvW with it, and would end up on the sides of towers hitting a wall at the end of the animation as well. No where close to where I started.

Changes I think would be good for it, have the animation end where you start it. Give them some sort of evade or even reduced damage. There are alot of AOE damage, and when you have no control where it goes, you end up hitting quite alot of it. I also think the damage was a bit sub par. Not alot, but enough I noticed a difference in how quick I was killing stuff vs other ones I tried. I was using full soldiers gear.

The Shiro utility skills….. I found them kind of lacking. The only one that I found good was the 9 skill. The boost to speed and stuff. The heal is very awful and cant not be relied on to get you even to half health. The seven and eight were extremely situational, and rarely got used. I am used to using the utilities alot more on my other toons.

Energy might need a bit of tweaking as well, I was almost always out.

Sword number one skill, i loved. Did very well.

Sword off hand skills, I was not a fan of. I tried using the number 5 skill both in pve and WvW, but I found that each and every time I tried it, the mob/opponent i was using it against, had moved away and I flew backwards alone. The block skill rarely worked, once again, lot of aoe attacks going on, and if you arent being hit by the target, that skill is completely useless.

The hammer skills were alot better this time. I still think that Hammer 1 needs to be a bit faster, the animation is soooooo slow with it. Number 5 skill takes forever as well to finish. I understand its a oe stun , and is very powerful. maybe take a second off the animation and it will be good.

Overall I had a blast playing the Rev, I found myself coming back to that class over and over, was alot of fun to play. Few tweaks here and there and the class could be up there with the rest of them.

Please consider removing Revenant weapon skills’ energy cost. It is acceptable not to use any utility skills while upkeeping another, but ridiculous to use only weapon #1 meanwhile. Also double limits (CD and energy) is way too harsh. Just make it the opposite of Thief’s mechanism please.

Energy on weapon skills is fine. People just want to spam skills without putting any thought into what they doing. Already covered up that stuff in rev changes thread.

skowcia.8257:

Energy on weapon skills is fine. People just want to spam skills without putting any thought into what they doing. Already covered up that stuff in rev changes thread.

Plus, only one weapon skill costs more than 15 energy, and that’s Sword 4’s chain at a whopping 20 energy. You know how long it takes to regenerate 20 energy? Four seconds, and the majority of weapon and heal skills cost 5-10 energy, meaning you are only waiting 1-2 seconds for the energy regen. You literally regenerate the energy cost for Hammer 2 during the aftercast.

I REALLY want to see a new grandmaster trait for the Revenant called ‘Rift Lord’. I came up with this a few weeks ago actually. The name was inspired by the Guild Wars 1 Ritualist skill ‘Ritual Lord’. And here’s what I think it should do. Similar to how the Guardian’s grandmaster trait ‘Writ of Persistence’ works (which improves symbols), Rift Lord would, you guessed it, improve rifts.

Rift Lord could make rifts last longer, be larger, and become unblockable.

I also believe that, to polish the Revenant to perfection, they need more utilities that we can swap out and choose from (because Revenant is the only profession that doesn’t give you any options when it comes to utilities). Utilities don’t HAVE to be legend specific – most utilities are class-specific anyway and don’t revolve around legends, so you could have, say, a few rift skills, a few signets (a 25% run signet would be nice), a few crowd control skills, stun breaks, maybe 1 or 2 healing/health regen skills etc. etc.

Edit: I also think there should be a trait which makes rifts ground targeted. For example, I want love to place temporal rift (axe #5 skill) on the sides of towers, so I can pull enemies off the ledge. Right now I can’t, and it seems such a waste because rifts have so much untapped potential.

First off, this was a fun class to try out. It took a bit to get use too but once you get use to the legend utilities, the class worked a lot better.

Weapons
The energy cost on the weapon skills and the CD really restricts the class. While the cost seem low, using them really prevents you from using the utility skills unless you spend long periods of time auto attacking. Remove the energy cost from the skills and balence the cost of utilities to be the exclusive user of energy. The only tricky one to balence would be impos. odds as quickness using your weapon skill CD without energy to restrict it might be over the top a bit.

Hammer- in a good place, fun too use for ranged option.
hammer 3- needs an evade, you pick up too much stray aoe when it lands in a group

Staff- fun def/support weapon
staff 2- second attack seems too restricted on an enemy using a skill at the time, change it to a successful hit may make it more useful
Staff 5- hard to get lined up correctly, Aoe template like War. greatsword movement skill would help

Sword- needs some love
sword 1- dmg seems low without any real good secondary effect to make it work
sword 2- low dmg, chill too short to really be effective
sword 3- High risks for the low dmg return, add evade and/or shorten animation time
sword 5- hard to really land, not rewarding enough when you do, try increasing shadow step distance

Axe- in a good place for power or condi offhand

Legends
Ventari- way too slow needing to drop the tablet after each legend swap. Auto drop on swap with no cast.
-The heal skill being the move tablet skill seems the wrong way to go. Try Natural Harmony as the heal skill with a CD and self-heal and Ventari’s Will as a utility. Only have the tablet need to be resummoned after elite is used.

Dwarf- a solid legend outside of some tweeks. Heal is good for effect but weak for CD
– Rite of the Great Dwarf- good for starting a team fight but the cast time is to restrictive even if the energy cost was lowered to really use it in combat.
– Vengeful Hammers- doesnt really do much for the energy drain
– Forced Engagement- high cost for the CC but can really hurt squishy classes if timed right. The slow while the target is taunted doesnt seem very useful. Try having it apply after the taunt expires

Shiro- good outside of the heal. Reduce the CD on the heal to 15-20 secs and it will be good.

Demon- Heal is weak, Elite is kind a wasted slot, needs someway of dumping condis.

General-
– Class lacks good condi clears outside of ventari legend. Try buffing the traits that remove condis or add more traits.
– Stunbreaks are lacking in some legends and at a high energy cost in shiro. The stunbreak on legend swap is not enough since you tend to need to swap for other reasons like using heals and cant hold on to current legend for stunbreak. More options and/or shorter legend recharge time would help.
– Needs a ranged condi weapon

My notes after the weekend (PvP, WvW, roaming oriented):

- Staff is pretty awesome. Took me a while to come around to it though. Only gripe is that 2 and 4 are on the slow side, but 2 in particular. It’s nearly impossible to land the chain on moving targets.

- Sword main hand was pretty solid. Devastating auto, 2 was pretty useless, and 3—not sure where I stand on it. Potentially does a ton of damage, so it should have some down sides. Evade on it would be over the top. But the real problem is it’s just not engaging—half the time it’s just “press this and hope it works out in my favor”. Unfortunate because it’s pretty cool.

- Sword offhand is currently only worth taking for the block and then your best forgetting about the follow up immobilize which just feels awkward.

- Hammer felt much better. Only change I’d suggest is making it so that the 5’s cast wasn’t channeled for the full duration of the skill, maybe just shave half a second off.

- The trait lines seemed to work well, although the salvation line seems like it needs some small tweaks that I can’t put my finger on.

- Jalis could use some help. It’s just neither here nor there. The only real reason to take it right now is stability and a somewhat burst heal (relative to ventari and shiro).

- Malyx feels really good.

- Ventari. Its growing on me. However, it is still pretty clunky. I like the concept but it just doesn’t keep up to pace with PvP. A shatter mesmer can kill quicker than the amount of time it takes to unload my tablet. One other thing that I think would be nice: I believe at the moment you have to start channeling skills before moving the tablet to get a heal on the move. It would improve the fluidity if you could start casting the heal while the tablet is still moving. Also, the elite while moving would be cool, not sure balance wise though.

Alxemist.8374:

Dont want to start a new threat since i think it is better to have feedback in only one.
This may be long After 15 hours of Rev testing in PvE, sPvP and WvW here are my thoughts.

- The class is overall slow for melee, no real option for swiftness or passive 25% movement which is really needed. Blast finishers to get swift in dwarf or burning Shiro 3 to move faster is not good enough.

-No CC. The luck of CC and CC resistance is really big. Needs options for cripple AND Imobilize. Needs more reliable option for stability not only from dodge rolling.

-Synergy between weapons/traits/specializations is really not there, besides sword nothing else exists. Need more Weapon traits (e.g. reduced cd+something special for each weapon).

Example of synergy from warrior sword: leap+cripple+immobilize+double leap finisher, aka synergy from passive/active traits and specialization.

-Energy. ALL energy cost from weapon skills AND Heal skills should be removed, having cd is more then enough. Also i really feel the class should start with 100% power and start burning it and afterwards worry about management, either that or reduce the cost of everything (elite skills cost 50!?).

As it is now you use 1-2 weapon skills and 1 utility and you are pretty much burned, this is not working well.

-Furry access from utilities and/or weapon attacks, not stance swap. It is really simple, stance swap should be optional for stun break or to use a different skill depending on situation NOT mandatory to dps (see synergy?)

-2 stances i feel are not enough, having 3 would be ideal imo. Ele has 4 attunements and Engi can have up to 4 kits to use skills.

-overall dmg is really low for power builds and condition builds are mixed and weird.

Sword 1 needs dmg increase, sword 2 needs to be 5 targets remove chill and make it cripple, sword 3 needs imobilize and to hit only 1 target, on top it needs evade AND be able to cancel it with dodge, dmg deffinatelly needs to be more.

Sword off 4 needs 1 more sec block, sword 6 imo should be changed to a pull not the complicated skill it is atm.

Mace 1 needs to be range attack, 300 or 600 or 900. As it is everything in condition set can be used in range EXCEPT your main attacks…? Mace 2 looks fine, Mace 3 does really good dmg and its better in a power build then condi.

Axe 4 does really good dmg for power build but you need it for cond?Axe 5 needs bigger area to pull its too short and really easy to avoid it.

While im at the weapon comments, why we cant have mace/mace or axe/axe?

Specializations

Shiro
Heal needs to be changed bad. Make it closer/similar to Necro signet, passive life steal with attacks and when used a small heal or something.
teleport (2nd utility) needs a 1sec stun add to it, you port to target and pretty much walks away before u attack.
3rd utility is draining you really bad (see energy issues)
Elite…cant even use it with the energy costs atm.

Demon
Heal is really low, imo needs more base heal.
1st utility, you draw conditions, get resistance and then…?die!? needs a second use to send those conditions to enemy.
2nd utility is ok-ish
3rd utility you teleport and add 1 torment or more depending on your conditions with a huge energy cost, maybe make this one send conditions after you use 1?
Elite is ok-ish but needs more conditions to be transfered or interval changed, its not bad, its not great either.

Dwarf
Heal is okish could need a bit more base
1st utility, the only decent one the class has imo
2nd utility is really really really bad, its a waste of energy to use it. Make it AoE and add a decent CC on it and maybe it will work.
3rd utility Hammer dmg is low , maybe add a third hammer? increase the dmg?
Elite needs stability while casting it.

Overall the class is not bad, but it is still far apart from competive or even close to the ones we have atm. Does not bring something new to the table and everything it does all other classes do it better. :/

Yeah pretty much my feeling…in PvE is really good but in PvP .. is so slow and defensless…i can survive a LIT more with my engi..which currently is not even the best at it.
Rev has no invuln, no blinds, no high endurance regen to dodge more than 2 times, and just 1 block that wont save you if focussed. If damage/speed stay the same it must be sturdier, i mean…even necro resist better.
He HAS engage / disengage potential with shiro but energy cost cripples it: the evade stuns break but do not opens gap .. i could do it, double dodge, do it again and the enemy was still on me. When you enter a fight you hardly can walk away, from any class… that’s my only issue: survivability.

My feedback:
the class is well designed and hasa good play style but there are just a few annoyances/ things that make so sense.

1) why does the skill 1-5 drain you bar as well as have cool downs, it hinders them way too much and means once you unleash a stream of attacks you can’t heal or do anything other than auto attack.

2) I get its not a boon boosting class, but you’ve gotta give it swiftness somehow,

3) the trait lines are missing the -20% recharge/cost time trait, or a way to increase the speed your legend bar recharges

Yeah..i want add another thing: i’m fine with the energy management but since you cannot spam things like a thief (a good direct comparison) every skill MUST mean more…initiative on thieves is less used, regen faster in combat and many skills are better….

Something I noticed playing Revenant is that staff skill #4 (Renewing Wave) does not always seem to clears conditions on yourself. Not sure if it’s due to moving during the aftercast or whatever. But it’s kind of annoying getting downed because your condi cleanse doesn’t work reliably.

Egron Redmoon.5764:

Something I noticed playing Revenant is that staff skill #4 (Renewing Wave) does not always seem to clears conditions on yourself. Not sure if it’s due to moving during the aftercast or whatever. But it’s kind of annoying getting downed because your condi cleanse doesn’t work reliably.

Noticed this a couple times too.