Fixing Major Revenant Issues

Fixing Major Revenant Issues

in Revenant

Posted by: mexay.3902

mexay.3902

So, most Revenant players know the latest patch left a lot to be desired, as it basically just nerfed a few things and didn’t touch the rest of the class. Thus, I propose some basic changes be made to the problem areas of the class, namely: Ventari, Jalis, Sword-Offhand, Salvation and some other traits, along with some clunky skills.

This is all heavily based on my personal use, so I’m very open to suggestions, but I’d ask only actual Revenant players to provide input here, since most other threads here keep attracting many non-rev players who seemingly want the class nerfed to oblivion or can’t see beyond sword’s pre-patch strong auto-attack.

Jalis

Jalis as a whole is meant to be the “tanky, brawly, in your face” legend. He’s meant to allow you to go full ham and wail on the enemy in melee range, however it falls kind of short in this regard, largely to two skills. Keep in mind, I have some minor changes I’d recommend to the Retribution line which should maintain some balance, if thing seem a little OP at first.

Inspiring Reinforcement

In short, this skill is too clunky and hard to use for it’s primary purpose, stability.

I propose it be adjusted to a very short, bursty AoE stability skill, alongside becoming a stunbreak.

30 Energy, 10s Recharge, Instant Cast
Break stun and grant yourself and nearby allies stability for a short time.
2 Stability (3s).

The idea is that you have some fairly decent stability up-time and an accessible stunbreaker, but it should be fairly costly, making it somewhat difficult to keep-up, but still usable when you need it.

Rite of the Great Dwarf

This skill is really just too hard to access when you need it. The cast time is too long for the duration you get. I understand this is partially due to the AoE nature of the skill and I’d like to keep that there without making it too strong, thus.

50 Energy, Instant Cast
50% Damage Reduction (inc. Condis if traited) on nearby allies for Four (4) seconds.

Essentially I removed the stunbreaker, because it was useless and reduced the uptime by a second, so you can use it when you need a quick save. Keeping it at 5 might be worth-while, but it is an AoE skill.

Forced Engagement
The projectile speed is just a little too slow. Increasing it 25 – 50% would see it be a little more reliable.

Soothing Stone
Only major change here is making the Condition Clear fire off first, to clear poison and make the heal more reliable.

Summary of Jalis

Basically what I did here was give Revenant a little better access to emergency buttons, like other classes have. I feel this is where Jalis’ strength comes in, alongside it’s potent heal and the Vengeful Hammers upkeep. It allows a variety of defensive options, while still offering some nice group support.

Retribution

This line feels a little messy, so my goal here is to make it a little more consistent and balance it out with the above changes.

Improved Aggression
This trait is just a little too niche for anyone to really take, especially when you have close quarters available too. I’m personally not a huge fan of having a trait for one very specific skill, but if you’re going for a taunt build, I’d say buffing/nerfing this to a flat 25% on everything would be better, also including Slow, maybe even bumping up the damage reduction, since Taunt/Slow are so hard to access on Revenant, it’s a powerful trait but only in a very specific circumstance.

“Taunted foes deal less damage to you. Taunt and Slow have an increased duration”
Damage Reduced: 30% (could maybe even stay at 20)
Duration Increase: 25%

Essentially we end up with Taunt and Slow lasting for 2.5 seconds, instead of the flat 2. I thought about 50%, but that resulted in a 3 second taunt, which is not fun.

Unwavering Avoidance
This trait as a whole doesn’t sit well with me, especially now that it has an ICD. I’m generally not a fan of on-dodge traits as they’re too passive. Instead, I think this skill should give Jalis more Retaliation, in a similar way that Mallyx gets Resistance from Corruption. This should also buff Empowering Vengeance, since Rev will have better Retal uptime, instead of just from dodging or from Soothing Stone.

“Gain Retaliation when using a dwarf stance skill”
Retaliation (2s) (maybe even a little higher)

Steadfast Rejuvenation

This skill just can’t stand up to the other two GM traits in the line. My suggestion here is just to lower the ICD, perhaps by a second or two.

Ventari

The first thing I’ll say is my use of Ventari is kind of limited, largely due to it being completely useless in just about every gamemode and just being generally too clunky.

The tablet effect is cool and I like that, but it needs just a tiny, tiny amount of AI.

General Use

First thing, when you swap to Ventari, the tablet should automatically appear. That or allow us to have “non tablet” skills, similar to how Druid has it’s Glyphs. Personally I’m going with it just auto-activating.

Secondly, the tablet should automatically follow you to an extent, while still allowing placement. The tablet should stay close to the player, similar to how Pets, Gyros, etc. do.

Ventari’s Will
This skill needs a rework.

“Will the tablet to target location for 3 seconds, healing nearby allies along it’s path. The tablet will automatically return to you after this time.”

5 Energy, 4s Cooldown, Instant Cast

Healing: 500
Targets: 5
Radius: 240
Range: 900

This skill should then flip over

Ventari’s Return
Or call it whatever, I don’t care

“Return the tablet to your position, healing nearby allies along it’s path.”

5 Energy, 4s Cooldown (essentially global cooldown of 4s for the whole skill), Instant Cast
Healing: 500
Radius: 240
Range: 900

The idea here is to allow the tablet to require a little less effort to control, but still allow you to have that control should you need it. So you can either have the tablet sit at a place for 3 seconds and have it automatically return to you, or you can have it manually return, for an extra energy cost.

Protective Solace
Just make it a kitten water field already.

Purifying Essence
Lower the energy cost to 25. Allows for an emergency burst condi clear upon switching to Ventari if you spam it, at the cost of all your energy.

Energy Expulsion
Basically keep this skill the same, but obviously don’t destroy the tablet. Instead, “daze” or disable the tablet for 3 seconds.

Essentially my goal here is to maintain the theme of the tablet, but make it easier to access certain skills, and make it generally less clunky.

Salvation

This line is just a mess. It’s pretty much entirely useless unless you’re using a staff heal ventari build. It has little to no application outside of this, unlike almost every other legend. My goal is to retain it’s support and blind aspects, but allow it a little more flexibility.

Blinding Truths
Move this to Master, in place of Tranquil Benediction and change it to the following
“Centaur stance skills blind foes near the tablet”

Blind (2s), 10s ICD.

This is kind of a nerf, if you were spamming the heal skill currently, but this means you have a little more access to the blinds.

Tranquil Benediction
Completely revamp this trait. In principle it’s nice, but the healing orbs on staff are largely useless in actual gameplay. I propose using this to give Revenant a little more condition clear that it sorely needs. Not so much to make it OP, but enough to actually make a dent, also move to adept tier.

“Healing skills also clear one conditon (15s ICD)”

A simple trait that allows some condition management. The ICD might need to be played with a bit due to it’s extreme synergy with Ventari (one condi every 15s might be a bit strong for Rev), but in other builds it’s actually quite viable.

Hardened Foundation
This trait is too hard to actually make use of. This should be changed to something that benefits allies standing near the tablet.

“Allies near the Tablet gain 5% damage reduction”

We don’t want to step into Jalis territory, but we do want to encourage people to be near the tablet for things other than heals.

Eluding Nullification
Remove the ICD, it isn’t really necessary.

Selfless Amplification

Perhaps it’s my personal taste, but I’ve never been a fan of traits that rely on stats to be effective. I propose something that will synergize with both Herald and other traits in the line.

“Regeneration you apply is 30% more effective”

This is similar to a couple other traits out there, but gives Salvation users a little boost to their Regen, a boon that isn’t exactly super powerful unless you have copious amounts of healing power. It also gives a reason for flat power users to want to take this line.

Momentary Pacification

This trait just conflicts with too many elites. The Ventari elite itself conflicts with it too much, along with Jade Winds and Chaotic Release. Since most Revenant elites have short/non-existent CDs, it’s my assumption that a high amount of daze was expected, so I’d like to go with this theme.

“25% chance to daze target when attacking, 20s ICD”

Again, numbers may need tweaking here, but the principle is that you want to be able to throw out some dazes once in a while.

Summary

Basically with this line, I wanted to still allow the big healing buffs to be there for that playstyle, but also to give some condition clear play and some denial play to the line, that it’s clearly trying to achieve.

noice

(edited by mexay.3902)

Fixing Major Revenant Issues

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Posted by: mexay.3902

mexay.3902

Shiro

Shiro is actually one of, if not the best legends. I only have one suggestions

Enchanted Daggers

Reduce base by 25% Siphon Health to 606
Increase base heal to 2852 (total of current base heal + the 25% we took from the Siphon)

This should give shiro a little more control over it’s survivability, while still giving the bulk of the heal via life steal.

Devastation

Too much of this line conflicts with itself and doesn’t provide very good choices for varieties of play.

Ferocious Strikes
This skill really doesn’t do anything unless you’re specifically wielding either a mace or sword. It’s largely useless while you’re on a 2H weapon. Thus I propose a rework that will actually benefit the Lifesteal play.

change to: Assassin Strikes (again, name it whatever)
“Life steal is 10% more effective”

Basically we’re just giving ourselves an extra bit of damage and healing on all lifesteal. It’s not an enormous buff, but it should be noticeable if you play heavily into this mechanic.

Nefarious Momentum
This is sort of underwhelming when you weigh it against 150 Ferocity for all allies, permanently and it isn’t really a “momentum” based skill, since in the span of 16 seconds you’re probably only using maybe 1 or 2 assassin skills.

Changes this to more might, for a longer duration could potentially make it more of a competitive option for solo play.

3 Might (20s) on Assassin Stance skill use.

This should give it a little more “oomph” in solo play.

Invocation
This line has some killer traits, but a lot of really, really poor options. In fact, most are pretty poor. In general it should play into the mechanic of swapping legends a lot, in addition to the Fury mechanic.

Fierce Infusion
Offensive boons on healing skills never made a lot of sense to me. While it’s something you’re doing a lot of, I’d rather either see this play more to the healing end or more into the Fury end. I believe the Fury end is a little better.

I’ve yet to see a trait that grants energy, so I’d like to see this play into that.

“Whenever you gain fury, gain 5 energy (10s ICD)”

Pretty much this just allows us to swap legends for 55 energy, instead of 50. It’s a very small buff, but it does make it a little more competitive when played with Herald or alongside warriors. Obviously numbers can/should be adjusted, but the general theme is there.

Incensed Response

Again, another offensive trait relying a little too much on you playing poorly. I’d prefer to see this be furthered as a defensive option, but maintaining the stun theme.

“Whenever you break stun, momentarily enter the mists, evading attacks”

Evade: 1s
ICD: 10s

Basically just gives you a small window when you break stun and plays into Revenant’s many stunbreaks and lack of stability or major emergency defensive options

Equilibrium

This trait is actually quite nice, however the healing is far too low to really be noticed.

Double the healing on this to 778 and it should be a far more competitive option.

Charged Mists

This trait is too clunky as it currently is. Instead of the current iteration, it should be whenever a skill is used under or over 50 Energy, not when one drops you below, e.g.

“Gain might when you use a skill while below the energy threshold” or “Gain might when you use a skill while above the energy threshold”.

Weapon Skills

I’m putting these all under one umbrella since that’s just easier and I can pick apart individual problem skills.

Precision Strike
So the new change was fantastic, but it’s very buggy. The first thing you need to do here is actually fix the bugs with it or completely rework it. Assuming you want to keep it in it’s current functionality, this skill needs the projectile speed increased by 50 – 100% to allow for easier hits from range. In addition to this, Projectiles should prioritise your target.

Alternatively, I’d like to see a leap or teleport (see: Warrior and Guardian sword 2s) skill here, but again, assuming we’re keeping the projectiles.

Unrelenting Assault

This skill needs to function better in AoE situations. The best way to maintain current functionality and thematics is have the third skill also be guaranteed to hit your target, so you’re getting 3/5 hits on your primary target.

Alternatively give it the 100b treatment, where certain hits actually hit harder. For this you’d have 33% of the damage on the first hit, 33% on the final hit and 11% on the middle 3 hits. Again, this allows you to get most of your damage off on your intended target while maintaining the theme and skill ceiling.

The general idea is to have at least 66% of the damage focused on your target.

Grasping Shadow
This skill really is just too clunky to use. The problem is you really do need to be very close to use it and there’s no actual indication on your bar if you’re close enough.

Buff the Attack Range to 200 – 300. It gives players more wiggle room. Also fix the range indicator.

Envoy of Exuberance
Fix the healing amount

Crystal Hibernation
I can’t be too sure how this skill is going to play out after the nerf, but since the healing was reduced, I’d like to see this turned into a mobile skill, instead of a rooted skill.

Renewing Wave
Decrease Cast to 3/4s

Staff Auto Attack
Increase overall damage 10%
Increase orb size 30%
Increase orb visibility

Phase Smash
Fix the skill so that it actually functions at 1,200 range.
Increase Radius to 300

Drop the Hammer
Increase damage 15%
Decrease cast time to 1.25s

noice

(edited by mexay.3902)

Fixing Major Revenant Issues

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Posted by: mexay.3902

mexay.3902

Reserved for part 3 (will delete later if unneeded)

noice

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Posted by: Varezenem.2813

Varezenem.2813

So, most Revenant players know the latest patch left a lot to be desired, as it basically just nerfed a few things and didn’t touch the rest of the class. Thus, I propose some basic changes be made to the problem areas of the class, namely: Ventari, Jalis, Sword-Offhand, Salvation and some other traits, along with some clunky skills.

This is all heavily based on my personal use, so I’m very open to suggestions, but I’d ask only actual Revenant players to provide input here, since most other threads here keep attracting many non-rev players who seemingly want the class nerfed to oblivion or can’t see beyond sword’s pre-patch strong auto-attack.

Jalis

Jalis as a whole is meant to be the “tanky, brawly, in your face” legend. He’s meant to allow you to go full ham and wail on the enemy in melee range, however it falls kind of short in this regard, largely to two skills. Keep in mind, I have some minor changes I’d recommend to the Retribution line which should maintain some balance, if thing seem a little OP at first.

Inspiring Reinforcement

In short, this skill is too clunky and hard to use for it’s primary purpose, stability.

I propose it be adjusted to a very short, bursty AoE stability skill, alongside becoming a stunbreak.

30 Energy, 10s Recharge, Instant Cast
Break stun and grant yourself and nearby allies stability for a short time.
2 Stability (3s).

The idea is that you have some fairly decent stability up-time and an accessible stunbreaker, but it should be fairly costly, making it somewhat difficult to keep-up, but still usable when you need it.

Rite of the Great Dwarf

This skill is really just too hard to access when you need it. The cast time is too long for the duration you get. I understand this is partially due to the AoE nature of the skill and I’d like to keep that there without making it too strong, thus.

50 Energy, Instant Cast
50% Damage Reduction (inc. Condis if traited) on nearby allies for Four (4) seconds.

Essentially I removed the stunbreaker, because it was useless and reduced the uptime by a second, so you can use it when you need a quick save. Keeping it at 5 might be worth-while, but it is an AoE skill.

Summary of Jalis

Basically what I did here was give Revenant a little better access to emergency buttons, like other classes have. I feel this is where Jalis’ strength comes in, alongside it’s potent heal and the Vengeful Hammers upkeep. It allows a variety of defensive options, while still offering some nice group support.

Retribution

This line feels a little messy, so my goal here is to make it a little more consistent and balance it out with the above changes.

Improved Aggression
This trait is just a little too niche for anyone to really take, especially when you have close quarters available too. I’m personally not a huge fan of having a trait for one very specific skill, but if you’re going for a taunt build, I’d say buffing/nerfing this to a flat 25% on everything would be better, also including Slow, maybe even bumping up the damage reduction, since Taunt/Slow are so hard to access on Revenant, it’s a powerful trait but only in a very specific circumstance.

“Taunted foes deal less damage to you. Taunt and Slow have an increased duration”
Damage Reduced: 30% (could maybe even stay at 20)
Duration Increase: 25%

Essentially we end up with Taunt and Slow lasting for 2.5 seconds, instead of the flat 2. I thought about 50%, but that resulted in a 3 second taunt, which is not fun.

Unwavering Avoidance
This trait as a whole doesn’t sit well with me, especially now that it has an ICD. I’m generally not a fan of on-dodge traits as they’re too passive. Instead, I think this skill should give Jalis more Retaliation, in a similar way that Mallyx gets Resistance from Corruption. This should also buff Empowering Vengeance, since Rev will have better Retal uptime, instead of just from dodging or from Soothing Stone.

“Gain Retaliation when using a dwarf stance skill”
Retaliation (2s) (maybe even a little higher)

Steadfast Rejuvenation

This skill just can’t stand up to the other two GM traits in the line. My suggestion here is just to lower the ICD, perhaps by a second or two.

Ventari

The first thing I’ll say is my use of Ventari is kind of limited, largely due to it being completely useless in just about every gamemode and just being generally too clunky.

The tablet effect is cool and I like that, but it needs just a tiny, tiny amount of AI.

General Use

First thing, when you swap to Ventari, the tablet should automatically appear. That or allow us to have “non tablet” skills, similar to how Druid has it’s Glyphs. Personally I’m going with it just auto-activating.

Secondly, the tablet should automatically follow you to an extent, while still allowing placement. The tablet should stay close to the player, similar to how Pets, Gyros, etc. do.

Ventari’s Will
This skill needs a rework.

“Will the tablet to target location for 3 seconds, healing nearby allies along it’s path. The tablet will automatically return to you after this time.”

5 Energy, 4s Cooldown, Instant Cast

Healing: 500
Targets: 5
Radius: 240
Range: 900

This skill should then flip over

Ventari’s Return
Or call it whatever, I don’t care

“Return the tablet to your position, healing nearby allies along it’s path.”

5 Energy, 4s Cooldown (essentially global cooldown of 4s for the whole skill), Instant Cast
Healing: 500
Radius: 240
Range: 900

The idea here is to allow the tablet to require a little less effort to control, but still allow you to have that control should you need it. So you can either have the tablet sit at a place for 3 seconds and have it automatically return to you, or you can have it manually return, for an extra energy cost.

Protective Solace
Just make it a kitten water field already.

Purifying Essence
Lower the energy cost to 25. Allows for an emergency burst condi clear upon switching to Ventari if you spam it, at the cost of all your energy.

Energy Expulsion
Basically keep this skill the same, but obviously don’t destroy the tablet. Instead, “daze” or disable the tablet for 3 seconds.

Essentially my goal here is to maintain the theme of the tablet, but make it easier to access certain skills, and make it generally less clunky.

Salvation

This line is just a mess. It’s pretty much entirely useless unless you’re using a staff heal ventari build. It has little to no application outside of this, unlike almost every other legend. My goal is to retain it’s support and blind aspects, but allow it a little more flexibility.

Blinding Truths
Move this to Master, in place of Tranquil Benediction and change it to the following
“Centaur stance skills blind foes near the tablet”

Blind (2s), 10s ICD.

This is kind of a nerf, if you were spamming the heal skill currently, but this means you have a little more access to the blinds.

Tranquil Benediction
Completely revamp this trait. In principle it’s nice, but the healing orbs on staff are largely useless in actual gameplay. I propose using this to give Revenant a little more condition clear that it sorely needs. Not so much to make it OP, but enough to actually make a dent, also move to adept tier.

“Healing skills also clear one conditon (15s ICD)”

A simple trait that allows some condition management. The ICD might need to be played with a bit due to it’s extreme synergy with Ventari (one condi every 15s might be a bit strong for Rev), but in other builds it’s actually quite viable.

Hardened Foundation
This trait is too hard to actually make use of. This should be changed to something that benefits allies standing near the tablet.

“Allies near the Tablet gain 5% damage reduction”

We don’t want to step into Jalis territory, but we do want to encourage people to be near the tablet for things other than heals.

Eluding Nullification
Remove the ICD, it isn’t really necessary.

Selfless Amplification

Perhaps it’s my personal taste, but I’ve never been a fan of traits that rely on stats to be effective. I propose something that will synergize with both Herald and other traits in the line.

“Regeneration you apply is 30% more effective”

This is similar to a couple other traits out there, but gives Salvation users a little boost to their Regen, a boon that isn’t exactly super powerful unless you have copious amounts of healing power. It also gives a reason for flat power users to want to take this line.

Momentary Pacification

This trait just conflicts with too many elites. The Ventari elite itself conflicts with it too much, along with Jade Winds and Chaotic Release. Since most Revenant elites have short/non-existent CDs, it’s my assumption that a high amount of daze was expected, so I’d like to go with this theme.

“25% chance to daze target when attacking, 20s ICD”

Again, numbers may need tweaking here, but the principle is that you want to be able to throw out some dazes once in a while.

Summary

Basically with this line, I wanted to still allow the big healing buffs to be there for that playstyle, but also to give some condition clear play and some denial play to the line, that it’s clearly trying to achieve.

I disagree about your ventari changes.

Senbu Ren[Wind]
Herald of Ventari

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Posted by: mexay.3902

mexay.3902

I disagree about your ventari changes.

Would love to hear your opinion. I will happily admit I’ve not had as much play-time with Ventari as I’d like to (or really should have), but I do know the legend is in a bit of a poor state. Just trying to throw some ideas out for a starting point.

Eventually I’d actually like to have a communal idea of where each legend needs to go, so I’m happy to edit/add extra ideas to each trait, legend, skill, etc in the OP.

What changes would you have in mind?

noice

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Posted by: Varezenem.2813

Varezenem.2813

I disagree about your ventari changes.

Would love to hear your opinion. I will happily admit I’ve not had as much play-time with Ventari as I’d like to (or really should have), but I do know the legend is in a bit of a poor state. Just trying to throw some ideas out for a starting point.

Eventually I’d actually like to have a communal idea of where each legend needs to go, so I’m happy to edit/add extra ideas to each trait, legend, skill, etc in the OP.

What changes would you have in mind?

Here

While your intention might be increasing alternative playstyles with ventari, ventari has a tendency to be OP in conquest that’s why you have to balance it for the extremes. Also changing the tablet to auto-follow would make it impossible to do quite a few things in WvW and PvE.
Also on Selfless Amplification if you changed it that way you would reduce ventari’s party wide heal by a lot and it would compete with Natural Abundance as the self sustain GM.

I’m not a Jalis specialist but this version of Inspiring Reinforcements could work on a 5 sec cooldown.As far as I’m aware Forced Engagement needs a projectile speed increase at least. And soothing stone needs to cleanse conditions first so that it can’t be negated by a single stack of poison.

Senbu Ren[Wind]
Herald of Ventari

(edited by Varezenem.2813)

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Posted by: Hooglese.4860

Hooglese.4860

For the most part these are very good suggested changes especially in the Jalis department, cause of the mention reasons that legend is useless. I disagree with the change to elluding nullification having no icd but it definetly needs to be reduced to like 5 or so, cause at 10s its worthless. Also I disagree with the heal thing. Not that it’s unnoticeable because it is, but if that’s buffed the heal on energy trait needs to be buffed as well. Also charged mists is a wildly underrated trait, used right you get 25 might easily.

PvP
revenant – Hoogles Von Boogles
Mesmer – hoogelz

(edited by Hooglese.4860)

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Posted by: Conner.5803

Conner.5803

I like your Jalis changes, but I do think that Forced Engagement needs a change too.

Forced Engagement

Increase energy cost to 50 with a 10 sec cd.
Make it an aoe burst of Taunt and Slow hitting 5 targets within 450 range but reduce the condition times to 1.5s. Remove the damage part of the skill.

I always felt this skill was lackluster and a waste of energy. But this way I would actually consider using it.

Vengeful Hammers
Make the hammers not disappear when you’re next to a wall.

I do think your Ventari changes won’t make a difference. It still looks incredibly clunky to be honest.

Project Tranquility

It should make you spawn the tablet and the tablet should stick to you like scrapper gyros do (but make it actually keep up with you).

Ventari’s Will

Basically make this skill work like Natural Harmony. Decrease the delay to 0.5 sec (or remove it completely), keep energy cost at 10, keep the 2s cd.

Protective Solace should be a water field like you said.

Purifying Essence feels right to me. Like your idea as well though.

Natural Harmony
This skill needs to change. Make it a targeted burst heal like the druid celestial form skill Lunar Impact. But instead of making it actually heal a lot (like the druid skill) make it heal a little bit and drop healing orbs (like the ones staff auto gives).
Keep the energy cost, increase the cd to 5s and give it a 0.5s cast time.

Energy Expulsion
I would keep this skill exactly the way it is now.

I haven’t gone through all your changes, but most that I’ve read, I actually like.

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Posted by: Varezenem.2813

Varezenem.2813

Well one of my major reasons I’m against the “following style” is that it would make Ventari just another copy of Tempest/Druid.
The reason the tablet feels clunky is the cast time on summon and movement both together create a major delay in getting the tablet where you want (around .5 second) making it harder to get moving targets.
The delay on NH is a considerable part of it too.

Senbu Ren[Wind]
Herald of Ventari

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Posted by: mexay.3902

mexay.3902

Here

While your intention might be increasing alternative playstyles with ventari, ventari has a tendency to be OP in conquest that’s why you have to balance it for the extremes.

And soothing stone needs to cleanse conditions first so that it can’t be negated by a single stack of poison.

Your point about CQ is actually something I hadn’t considered too heavily. I guess it could result in an over-bunker playstyle, especially if paired with Jalis or Glint, and Staff + x/Shield.

Essentially I’d just like to see Ventari be a whole lot less clunky. I like the suggestions you posted in the other thread.

I definitely agree about Soothing Stone. I’ll add that and the Forced Engagement to the OP.

noice

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Posted by: ArkofLeight.3746

ArkofLeight.3746

All I want is the class to function without full herald. It very much seems like it wasn’t intended to be played without glint pooping boons through the mists all over your allies.

The other thing I’d like to see is some crossover on traits in general to ‘suggest’ builds. Like “+150 Ferocity when dual wielding AND +150 healing (assuming the healing works with lifesteal) when using a two-hander”. You can’t use both sides at once, and either side is useful under certain circumstances, but they’ll really shine in builds that use both.
Some suggestions
“Might when you use Assassin skills, Retaliation when you use Dorf skills”
“Copy out conditions when you switch TO Meowmix, cleanse some conditions when you swap TO Ventari”
“Staff orbs grant might, blasting fire fields grants you (and only you) Vigor”
“Whenever you gain resistance, you gain retaliation”

Also obligatory whine about some skills to swap out for the legends, or more legends.

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Posted by: mexay.3902

mexay.3902

All I want is the class to function without full herald. It very much seems like it wasn’t intended to be played without glint pooping boons through the mists all over your allies.

I’d definitely like to see the legends and specialisations be strong enough on their own to not require Herald, but I think we’ll find that’s just never going to be the case, except in some niche WvW and PvP builds.

The entire class was likely designed with Glint in mind. Hell, most of the Elite specs on other classes are just too good to pass up as well. I think this may be one of the things we just need to suck up about the class.

However, that doesn’t mean the base legends and traits should be as bad as they are now, particularly Jalis/Retrib & Ventari/Salv. Mallyx and Shiro are good enough to stand on their own as legends, but each Specialisation line needs some work in particular areas.

noice

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Posted by: Burtnik.5218

Burtnik.5218

However, that doesn’t mean the base legends and traits should be as bad as they are now, particularly Jalis/Retrib & Ventari/Salv. Mallyx and Shiro are good enough to stand on their own as legends, but each Specialisation line needs some work in particular areas.

Mallyx is far from being good enough. Carried by 3 traitlines is not something i would consider stands good on it own. I am playing core rev atm and the resistance upime i am getting..is just poor. Trait on herald+f2 is what caused rev being able maintain perma resistance. In fact i still can do it in herald without any issues.

Shiro is the only one who can stand up on it own – well almost. Theres one problem with him and thats is “healing skill”. But in general he works with everything except Ventari obviously.

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Posted by: Varezenem.2813

Varezenem.2813

However, that doesn’t mean the base legends and traits should be as bad as they are now, particularly Jalis/Retrib & Ventari/Salv. Mallyx and Shiro are good enough to stand on their own as legends, but each Specialisation line needs some work in particular areas.

Mallyx is far from being good enough. Carried by 3 traitlines is not something i would consider stands good on it own. I am playing core rev atm and the resistance upime i am getting..is just poor. Trait on herald+f2 is what caused rev being able maintain perma resistance. In fact i still can do it in herald without any issues.

Shiro is the only one who can stand up on it own – well almost. Theres one problem with him and thats is “healing skill”. But in general he works with everything except Ventari obviously.

And the reason for that is Ventaris self heal are non-existent. And that adds up with Shiros not so good heal..

In case anyone asks…

Senbu Ren[Wind]
Herald of Ventari

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Posted by: Hooglese.4860

Hooglese.4860

However, that doesn’t mean the base legends and traits should be as bad as they are now, particularly Jalis/Retrib & Ventari/Salv. Mallyx and Shiro are good enough to stand on their own as legends, but each Specialisation line needs some work in particular areas.

Mallyx is far from being good enough. Carried by 3 traitlines is not something i would consider stands good on it own. I am playing core rev atm and the resistance upime i am getting..is just poor. Trait on herald+f2 is what caused rev being able maintain perma resistance. In fact i still can do it in herald without any issues.

Shiro is the only one who can stand up on it own – well almost. Theres one problem with him and thats is “healing skill”. But in general he works with everything except Ventari obviously.

This is really accurate. Mallyx needs both corruption and herald to be useful, otherwise the resistance upkeep is too low. Even after those two you need either invocation or retribution to deal with cc. The offensive potential of it is alright, well actually it’s just banish enchantment. Unyielding anguish and embrace the darkness both suck, especially EtD without corruption + diabolic inferno. As I and many many other people have said “Mallyx still needs work”

PvP
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Posted by: mexay.3902

mexay.3902

Just going to go ahead and bump this thread, since the balance patch is coming up within the next month or so. Fixing these issues should be a top balance priority

noice

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Posted by: Ranael.6423

Ranael.6423

I must admit that my main problem for revenant build is that right now the trait lines are, for most builds:
X – Invocation – Herald, with X being the line that improves your role.
There are not enough synergy between other lines, or conversely to much synergy between Invocation and Herald with the others.
While I see the pattern for every profession that Espec should be the way to go for every build (obvious marketing reasons), I fail to see how Invocation has to be that strong. There is almost no synergy between Devastation and Corruption, this latter being unfinished since the revamp of Mallyx during beta.
For example I would gladly exchange maniacal persistence and roiling mist because Corruption should be stronger towards criticals and condi in general while Invocation should grant bonus to different aspects but to a lesser extent because it is more versatile. If Invocation was to be a crit oriented trait line then they should nerf/remove the sustain and support it can bring.
For Ventari, an exchange between hardened fundation and eluding nullification would be good for simple gameplay reasons (toughness aggro for the first one and the ICD of the second making it worth a minor trait… still removing 2 to 3 conditions would be more in line with other professions).
For Jalis I would like to see more Retaliation into action. First by increasing soothing stone retaliation, maybe add it to Forced engagement too. In the trait line, a minor increasing the duration or the efficiency of the boon, instead of enduring recovery could be also welcome. Right now empowering vengeance is really lackluster because retaliation is not enough available. On the other hand, trying to create a dodging tank (stab and retal on dodge, endurance on hit) doesn’t really work well out of ranged tank with hammer. But even so, the ranged tanking is a tricky gameplay for every game mode (in pvp you bunker on the point not by dodging out, in raid you don’t want the boss to move more than needed )

They tried a new design with rev and that is a good thing, but sadly they stopped when the support(raid)/damage(PvP) build were fine. I mean the pure healer spec is really powerful with good presence melee and ranged, the raid tanking is somewhat possible but there are some details that should be looked at.
And PvE condition is right now not competitive while it should be really high because being melee but unlike thief there is no support in it.

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Posted by: xXBurningEmberXx.6085

xXBurningEmberXx.6085

I disagree about your ventari changes.

Please don’t quote the whole page-long post… :/

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Posted by: Loboling.5293

Loboling.5293

Appreciate the work you put into this, but I have a problem with a lot of it sadly.

I like your jalis suggestions for the most part. However, the only change for ventari you mentioned I like is the tablet auto spawning when you swap to ventari. (oh and water field would be nice, but not essential) I’m also not a fan of all your shiro changes. I think the devs need to focus on making jalis work, give ventari some qol (but don’t take away the feeling of the spec, its fun that includes blind spam)

Honestly a shame there is a lot of good in your post, but many things I wouldn’t want as well. In finals, but hopefully some other players can pick it apart and find what is valuable, or just start a new thread with more agreed upon ideas.

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Posted by: Ranael.6423

Ranael.6423

Ah I didn’t mention the tablet auto return, which I think is a bad idea. In fact being able to have presence on both spots is a real strength for healer Rev. Imagine for example to be able to heal the tank on VG with tablet while you are healing your pals on green zone with staff and/or shield… or the other way around.
I’ve never healed with my Rev in raids so far but when I did on WB (fwiw) I really liked to have “regularly” two spots of actions. I say regularly because optimizing healing on Rev requires switching legend quite often for Invoking harmony.

The water field on protective solace would be a bit too strong too, you could maintain it for too long and too cheap cost. However, a 3sec field upon purifying essence could be a nice addition.

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Posted by: mexay.3902

mexay.3902

Honestly a shame there is a lot of good in your post, but many things I wouldn’t want as well. In finals, but hopefully some other players can pick it apart and find what is valuable, or just start a new thread with more agreed upon ideas.

Just because you don’t agree with a component of my suggestions doesn’t mean that the entirety of my suggestions are bad.

It’s a bunch of ideas that are (with a few select exceptions) separate from each other. The good ones are good, the bad ones are bad. Doesn’t make the whole post bad.

noice