Guild Wars 2

That would really kill the class! I perfectly disagree with " I can’t imagine any stance other than Ventari wanting to use the staff". Jalis works best in melee range. The road is medium range, the rotation hammer is melee, the daunt pulls enemy to you… do you think using it with hammer makes sense? I don’t think so. Using it with staff is perfect because it is melee and adds healing to increase the tankiness. On the other hand, using Ventari with hammer is perfectly ok, since Ventari does not have any range preference. It is thus a good way to add resilience while using hammer + between hammer skill and tablet, one can keep high projectile deflection uptime.

Then for Mallyx, if the sword/sword is fast as they seem to imply, then the torment from traits may proc often enough to make it a viable hybrid condition weapon.

So to tie legend to its weapon is absolutely awful. I would love more flexibility, and while I don’t think weapon swap is the best way theme-wise, I think it would work BUT DON’T TIE IT TO THE LEGEND!!!

How I would do it would make wealon swap part of legend activation. So you are in Jalis stance and equip Hammer and when you swap to Shiro, you equip your swords. So the swap is tied to legend swap but gives you the flexibility to use whatever weapon for any desired legend.

As an Ele I can’t engage in ranged combat either with the d/d build. The only way to engage in range and Melee with an ele is conjures but they don’t work in pvp.

TheLastNobody.8319:

Ceesa.1350:

AzureSky.3175:

6. Tie Legendary Stances to their respective weapons (so swapping stances auto-swaps your weapon, or swapping weapons auto-swaps your stance)

This is by far my favorite idea. I can’t imagine any stance other than Ventari wanting to use the staff, so bringing up a staff when you switch to Ventari makes a lot of sense to me. Likewise, I think malyx and the hammer go really well together.

Revenant needs a way to switch between melee and range in the middle of combat, and I think the above option is the only one which does this easily and in a way that makes logical sense.

I third this. Would help a heck of a lot.

This is a bad idea. It limits build diversity even more. You would never be able to make a ranged Mallyx build, for example. On top of that, what if you need to fight ranged, but you need the projectile block of Ventari? You would be stuck using staff and dealing no DPS while you block things, then switch to ranged for DPS and not be able to block things…

A better idea would be to make weapons a “blank slate” and use traits to add their effects. Shiro adds damage modifiers, Mallyx adds conditions, Jalis adds CC, Ventari adds support. That way you are free to pick any weapon you want and use it for any build you want. The difference between weapons would be through animation, speed, and range.

2: has not been made and would force every revenant to use that legend, or to have a redundant skill on every legend.
3: Bad. Legend swap has to be independent from weaponswap. I may want to swap legend to get energy/utility and keep the same weapon (ranged or melee), or swap weapon without needlessy change legend. Legend swap is the main Revenant mechanic (did you even look at the traits?). We need to swap legend frequently, but we may not want to swap weapojn in the process.
4: No. See 3.
5: Nice, but not a fast solution and legends would change too much everything, but that’s my opinion.
6: No. See 3.
7: Does it change from 6? Not too much, so no. See 3.

The only solution to me is weaponswap, sorry. Maybe a conjured mist weapon of choice with F2, but that’s harder to accomplish and gives worse results. It’s just to say “look, it’s different! (but worse)”

I know its late to the party, but there is an elegant solution I’m not sure anyone has considered.

Option A:
Slots 3 and 5 are determined by active stance. Works by defining combat roles by weapons, and applies each Legend’s approach to how such a role would be filled for one of the slots. Shiro emphasizes mobility, Jalis defense, Ventari healing, etc.

So sword slot 3 for example would be Unrelenting Assault (obviously) for Shiro, Blunted Blade for Jalis (inflicts weakness) with a follow up called “Two for flinching” that dazes if strikes a target activating a skill, “Edge of Remorse” for Ventari (which generates healing orbs). Honestly this is probably the most viable, and combines the best aspects of having a weapon of choice, with the flexibility of each Legend’s theme.

Option B:
Have main hand skills (1-3) determined by the first Legend, and off-hand (4-5) by the second Legend. And split 2-hand weapon skill accordingly. This makes positioning of the Legends important, and does help with future Specs being bound to a new weapon.

Let’s be honest here guys. The Rev has to change somehow but there isn’t that much time as they won’t delay the entire game just to fix this. How about an easier approach for weapon skills. Have an F2 function that swaps in an assortment of pre existing skills from other classes as 1-5 skills.

They can be a selection of skill which are legend relevant and alleviate the range issue most Rev weapons have. Since skills are pre existing they won’t have to create whole new animations and the balancing will be easier to get right. It sounds lazy but if it makes the class usable on launch I’d deal with it. We can’t expect miracles in the 2 months or so to release a lot of people are predicting.

It’s not ideal but it is doable.

If we are looking for a cheap solution, I think plain simple weapon swap is the best solution. Sure I’d rather have a more unique and thematic way, but I mostly want a working and fun class. I did like the theme and animations of the revenant, it was just lacking efficiency and versatility. Efficiency is just a tweak of the numbers, weapon swap can fix the versatility.

Cross post from
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/revenant/A-different-type-of-weapon-swap/first#post5288769
I really need to learn to read better before making new threads.

Existing classes have 2 weapon sets and 20+ utility skills to pick and choose for the skill bar and Revenant has 2 utility skill sets and 5 static weapon skills. Everyone has been asking for weapon swapping but I’d rather things went in a more interesting direction that would allow for more mirroring between Revenant and other classes.

First, allow the Revenant to equip 2 weapon sets just as most classes can, but maintain the inability to swap weapons.

Second, give the Revenant a pool of 10 weapon skills. Those 10 skills would be the skills of the weapons equipped.

Third, let the Revenant slot those weapon skills in any number slot.

This would let the Revenant have a total skill pool equivalent to other classes utility skills but still only have a usable skill pool of 10 the same as other classes. The versatility in skills selected is balanced by the restriction of only having access to 5 skills instead of 10.

The strength of the Revenant is its versatility with legends but this is diminished by tying weapons so closely with a legend; it makes at least one legend work at a disadvantage. By picking and choosing which weapon skills to use, you can maximize the effectiveness of both legends.
Thoughts?

draxynnic.3719:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Think of it like an elementalist only backwards…. an elementalist swaps attunements, and gets 5 new skills…

A revenant swaps legends, and gets 5 new skills.

Neither class can weapon swap, and an elementalist can choose its 5 utilities…. the same way a revenant can choose its 5 weapon skills.

Of course the revenant only has 2 legends available at a time instead of 4 attunements… but perhaps they might make it so you can swap between any of the 4… and make the heal skills share a cooldown or increase the recharge on legend swapping or something.

There is a symmetry, but it’s not perfect.

Elementalist trades a bit of build versatility for in-combat versatility. They get twice as many weapon skills, but all of those weapon skills are decided by a single set, while most professions have more control over the individual skills they have. However, elementalists still have the conventional behaviour for their 6-10 skills.

Revenants make a similar trade for their non-weapon skills. They get to have twice as many as other professions, but in exchange, instead of being able to choose them individually, they have to choose two sets of five. However, while the elementalist gets conventional access to their 6-10 skills, revenant does not get conventional weaponswaps in the 1-5 slots.

So while the elementalist is only paying the price of versatility over customisation on the weapon skills, the revenant is paying the price of versatility over customisation on the 6-10 skills but also pays an additional price on the weapon skills. And this is perhaps additionally painful because revenant weapons aren’t as versatile as elementalist skills.

telling you all,
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/revenant/Idea-F2-skill-Become-the-Legend/first#post5288716

this idea here would greatly increase the effectiveness of the class.

Shiro’s “Become the Legend” skills could have some distant closers and damage. This gives non-Sword/Sword Revs access to damage if they have Shiro as a legend.

Demon’s Become the Legend" skill could give the revenant access to conditions, if the Revenant isnt equipped with Mace/Axe or Sword/Sword, as long as they have Demon Legend.

Dwarf Legend’s “Become the Legend” skills could provide defensive support skills for staying alive, if you have Dwarf Legend.

Centaur Legend’s “Become the Legend” skills could provide more self heals, as a offset of the tablet’s lack of self heal.

For Become the Legend mechanic, I am not talking about a transformation in Necro sense of it, but could simply have the players summon a Ritualist kind of Weapon of the Legend, from the mist to use as the animations
but all it does is change the weapon skills for a short period of time.

great sub for Weapon Swap, without giving them Weapon Swap.
Still unique. Different from Necro Shroud because its not extra health, and it requires 50% Commune to be use.

draxynnic.3719:

D/D ele has 600 range in water attunement with their auto attack.
D/D ele, let alone D/F ele, is much less locked into melee than either.

Water auto hit like a wet noddle, you can sit there with the regain buff with 0 healing power and outheal the water auto. Also you are not going into water for dmg, water atun is for recovering ether for coandi clear or for heals. You wont even touch the auto. Also you are very vulnerable once water goes on CD so you are not just going into it willy nilly.

You lose pretty lose 100% effectiveness as a D/D ele outside of melee.

draxynnic.3719:

Staff ele has 1200 range, but none of their attacks are reduced in effectiveness due to being in close range, and if you don’t have an ally to keep the enemy pinned down, it’s usually easier to keep the enemy within your fields where they’ll take the most damage from your persistent area effects if you stay close by the fields yourself to keep melee enemies in the fields. So when you can’t simply play artillery at long range, a staff ele can fight quite effectively at close ranges.

Any staff ele that is fighting a close range is a dead staff ele. That you are completely brain dead. All there there tools are made to keep you away (stack field – Unsteady ground) or put distance, (burning retrete). You are either going to get your long channel times interrupted or get you super slow attacks blinded or blocked. So again just like a d/d ele you effectiveness falls to almost 0 outside of you effective range as a staff ele.

draxynnic.3719:

The main DPS skill of revenant hammer, Coalescence of Ruin, does half damage if the enemy is in the 0-400 range bracket (which they usually will be unless the enemy is using long-range attacks themselves or you have an ally to keep them distracted) compared to when the enemy is in the 800-1200 bracket.

Both elementalist staff and scepter are much less range-locked than the revenant hammer. Sure, they’re not as effective as melee weapons in close range, but at least they don’t lose effectiveness like revenant hammer does.

God that sound just like a staff or d/d ele. Again you functionally lose all effectiveness outside of you range set just like the rev does not from what we have seen from the partial class

This is all more pvp focused talk though. PVE being ranged locked it a non issue for the content.

“Close range” is not the same as “melee”. A staff user within 600 units is more likely to be able to keep an enemy in the AoE fields. Good use of skills like Burning Retreat, Frozen Ground, Gust, Windborne Speed, Static Field, Unsteady Ground, and Shock Wave can prevent the enemy from being able to close into melee for long. Granted, you probably won’t get a meteor shower off in those circumstances, but nothing else is weakened by being in close, and other staff skills really aren’t that slow.

Rev hammer… Has its damage cut significantly by being stuck in close range through the behaviour of Coalescence of Ruin, and does not have the gap openers and disablers that elementalist staff has to prevent ‘close range’ from becoming ‘getting murdered in melee’.

For dagger… damage on Vapor Blade probably won’t kill anybody in PvP on its own, sure. But it does give you some damage (and vulnerability) until you’re ready or able to get closer. In the meantime, let’s not gloss over that the other dagger autoattacks don’t have a range of 130, like most melee attacks (including rev mace and staff auto) but 300-400. Well-played, even a dagger ele can avoid letting an opponent beat on them in melee while still getting all their hits in.

A staff or mace revenant can’t.

This is further exaggerated by the announcement that Shiro’s swords are it, meaning that unless the elite specialisation comes to the rescue, the revenant has nothing that’s optimised for anything between melee range and 800 units.

In my experience, that’s exactly the bracket that most decisive PvP battles occur.

Someone mentioned an idea (sorry, I don’t couldn’t find the post to link it here) to give the Revenant an additional F2 skill that switches weapon skills to a sort of ‘mist energy’ weapon set. This could include a set of attack and utility skills to augment the Revenant’s capabilities since it lacks weapon swap.

One of the ideas the OP mentioned (if I recall correctly) is a ranged autoattack that generates energy when it hits a target. This would help with one of Rev’s weaknesses in energy regeneration. Other skills I can think of could include things the Revenanat is lacking: a stun break, a block/invulnerability, and ranged cripple/chill skill (for range control, useful to both melee and ranged builds). I personally think such a weapon set should be useful primarily for utility and not damage – so that it addresses the weaknesses in the Rev’s main weapon set. But perhaps some builds could use the ‘mist energy’ weapon for dps by taking traits to buff it (e.g. in the Invocation line).

This ‘mist energy’ weapon set could be the Rev’s weapon swap, with the same functionality and cooldown as other professions’ weapon swap. Therefore, all Revs would have equipped the ‘mist energy’ and their primary weapon (e.g. hammer, mace/ax) and be able to swap between them.

The animations could look pretty cool, as the Rev could be unarmed with a martial pose and ‘mists energy’ (or whatever) pooling around his fists.

draxynnic.3719:

“Close range” is not the same as “melee”. A staff user within 600 units is more likely to be able to keep an enemy in the AoE fields. Good use of skills like Burning Retreat, Frozen Ground, Gust, Windborne Speed, Static Field, Unsteady Ground, and Shock Wave can prevent the enemy from being able to close into melee for long. Granted, you probably won’t get a meteor shower off in those circumstances, but nothing else is weakened by being in close, and other staff skills really aren’t that slow.

Rev hammer… Has its damage cut significantly by being stuck in close range through the behaviour of Coalescence of Ruin, and does not have the gap openers and disablers that elementalist staff has to prevent ‘close range’ from becoming ‘getting murdered in melee’.

For dagger… damage on Vapor Blade probably won’t kill anybody in PvP on its own, sure. But it does give you some damage (and vulnerability) until you’re ready or able to get closer. In the meantime, let’s not gloss over that the other dagger autoattacks don’t have a range of 130, like most melee attacks (including rev mace and staff auto) but 300-400. Well-played, even a dagger ele can avoid letting an opponent beat on them in melee while still getting all their hits in.

A staff or mace revenant can’t.

This is further exaggerated by the announcement that Shiro’s swords are it, meaning that unless the elite specialisation comes to the rescue, the revenant has nothing that’s optimised for anything between melee range and 800 units.

In my experience, that’s exactly the bracket that most decisive PvP battles occur.

You do know that there’s several gap closers on the revenant, right?

How are those ideas better then regular weaponswap?
protip: they aren’t

I think some are (ok, I just love the idea 5). Weapon swap is a good fix for sure and it’s also the easiest. But I like the idea of having 5 skills per legend because it gives the high versatility the class was promised to have and makes it unique.

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

You do know that there’s several gap closers on the revenant, right?

If you play staff + Ventari + Mallyx, the closest you have from a gap closer is staff 5 and it has long cool down and does not go very far.

Plus I made a comparison on another thread between mace and a warrior’s sword. They are very similar weapons in the way they are designed except that 1) sword does more damage 2) the sword leap has a longer range 3) sword has many cripples. I don’t know if torment was seen as a (very) soft CC to replace cripple, but it just does not work.

The thing I find odd about the revenant is as follows:

Ventari = Healing | Staff = Healing
Jalis = Supposed to be more Tanky with CC | Hammer = Ranged (therefore staying out of harms way) with CC
Mallyx = Conditions | Mace + Axe = Conditions
Shiro = DPS | Sword + Sword = DPS

So we have the above legends, and each legend seems to have a weapon set themed around them, and complimenting their playstyle. So here’s my problem: We get to choose two legends but only one weapon set. I know the weapon will be effective regardless of which legend you equip, but it feels odd. And not only that but if you take the staff for example, you are kind of encouraged to take Ventari because it increases its capabilities.

So not only are our utility skills limited, but our weapon choice kind of limits our legendary stance choices.

I really think adding weapon swap is the easiest and best way to improve things. It will allow us to pick a weapon for each equipped legend, allowing us to customize our builds to synergize better with each weapon and legend. Currently, we can only synergize one legend with our weapon, while the other legend almost feels like it is an after thought or second best. Like it is just tagging along because we had to choose a second legend. If we could choose a second weapon to go with our second legend, both legends would feel like they are being fully utilized and appreciated.

Might be an odd way of looking at it, but that’s how I currently feel about the revenant.

Edit: I would also be ok with each weapon being locked to each legend, so you cannot swap them independently. So long as we get the choice of which weapon we lock to which legend, so we can still have some build flexibility.

Alright guys, now that weapon swap will be added to fix the Revenant, this thread has lost its purpose (or rather fulfilled its purpose?) and can be closed. I just wanted to thank you all for 3000+ views and 100+ responses, thanks for the discussions, all the useful feedback and the creative suggested solutions. I don’t know if Anet ever looked into this thread, but even if they didn’t, I think that it still did a good job in making people think about and form opinions on the subject.
Anet chose to let us swap weapons, so it is very very unlikely that any of our other ideas/solutions here will be added to the Revenant profession. As for the ongoing discussions, other threads are probably more suited to continue these than this one now.
Thank you all!

Happy they added weapon swap, sad they didn’t add legend-specific skills :p
Weapon swap was the easiest fix and it will do fine.