Guild Wars 2

Make the skills actually meaningful and good.

Weapon swap does not solve the problem revenant has.
People will still experience the same problem with weapon swap, without buffs.
it’s not about having more skills, it’s about how the skills work, they are bad and need change.

that’s it.

Wrong.

Weapon swap does fix an issue.

It gives the revenant the ability to fall back during a fight and still have a means of actually doing something via equipping the hammer in the second slot.

JoshuaRAWR.4653:

Wrong.

Weapon swap does fix an issue.

It gives the revenant the ability to fall back during a fight and still have a means of actually doing something via equipping the hammer in the second slot.

what makes you think that there are no other ways to fall back during a fight and still have a means of actually doing something?
D/D is completely viable and one of the best builds in PvP.

I agree with you lighter, the weapon swap wasn’t needed in itself. It’s jsut that the legends skill lack some practical tools needed for survivability and adaptability.

Beside they said, at the same time that they announced the weapon swap, that they intended to buff revenant’s existing stuff. Well, buff numbers where totally over the top.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/revenant/Revenant-Changes

You have either never played Rev, Melee, or a D/D Ele.

D/D ele is more like pseudo-melee than Actual melee. Skills on the dagger range from 300 to 600 range. (Matter of fact NONE of the daggers auto attacks are actually base melee range) D/D also has many gap closing skills, including the very long range ride the lightening. Rev is EXTREMELY limited in comparison since their melee weapons are, gasp, actually melee.

I’m tired of hearing this BS comparison.

Also, while we are at it you’re post has zero substance. Why are the skills bad? How are they lacking? How does weapon swap not solve an issue?

Your post is not feedback. It is whining and useless in it’s current form. It does not detail an issue, and will most likely be ignored.

great idea to compare !!5!! pure meelee weapon skills with !!20!! semi meelee weapon skills of a DD Ele with high mobility as wel on weapons as on utils

WeaponSwap adressed a major Problem of Range infight as well as problems with a really monoton playstyle with just 5 weapon skills – its not the final point though . IMHO Revenant still needs some amount of work and improvements (Mallyx Utils / Jalis traits + elite / Staff 2 as well as Sword 2

NO!

Love me some weapon swap <3

Some people like lighter were suggesting different (and inferior) solutios instead of weaponswap, and now are on a personal crusade.

Why it’s a personal crusade? Because having weaponswap can simulate not having it. Just don’t equip a second weapon. There is NO reason to remove it.

Weaponswap is something that the revenant needs a lot to avoid those kind of moments when you have to say “meh, I guess I’ll just wait”.

Weaponskills in this game are very different from healing/utility/elite, and making those more like weaponskill just swaps the bars, making another elementalist basically.

Rune Darkmoor.3269:

You have either never played Rev, Melee, or a D/D Ele.

D/D ele is more like pseudo-melee than Actual melee. Skills on the dagger range from 300 to 600 range. (Matter of fact NONE of the daggers auto attacks are actually base melee range) D/D also has many gap closing skills, including the very long range ride the lightening. Rev is EXTREMELY limited in comparison since their melee weapons are, gasp, actually melee.

I’m tired of hearing this BS comparison.

Also, while we are at it you’re post has zero substance. Why are the skills bad? How are they lacking? How does weapon swap not solve an issue?

Your post is not feedback. It is whining and useless in it’s current form. It does not detail an issue, and will most likely be ignored.

D/D works, because they have 3 gap closer on their weapon set, most attacks are AoE and has a blink.

Why Rev can’t change to that as well? but sure why giving rev weapon swap is possible, but making it pseudo-melee is impossible somehow?…
If you look at it closely, rev is already pretty close, why thieves can stay on sword or dp for a long time without weapon swap? because they have gap closer without cooldown, which shiro provides.

like just make wells range target able like necro’s ones and there you have ranged pressure.

Weapon swap does not solve the problems that the Revenant have, but giving Revenant weapon swap was never meant to fix everything.

Id rather keep weapon swap and they alter/buff the skills . . . o wait thats exactly why vwe have betas and feedback, that IS what is happening.

If there is no weapon swap the class feels very limited, and we would be screwed in situation where we need both range and melee. With elementalist you can switch atunements and have different ranged skills, engi has tons of kit options. Rev felt so predictable before with it’s limited custimization.

lighter.2708:

Rune Darkmoor.3269:

You have either never played Rev, Melee, or a D/D Ele.

D/D ele is more like pseudo-melee than Actual melee. Skills on the dagger range from 300 to 600 range. (Matter of fact NONE of the daggers auto attacks are actually base melee range) D/D also has many gap closing skills, including the very long range ride the lightening. Rev is EXTREMELY limited in comparison since their melee weapons are, gasp, actually melee.

I’m tired of hearing this BS comparison.

Also, while we are at it you’re post has zero substance. Why are the skills bad? How are they lacking? How does weapon swap not solve an issue?

Your post is not feedback. It is whining and useless in it’s current form. It does not detail an issue, and will most likely be ignored.

D/D works, because they have 3 gap closer on their weapon set, most attacks are AoE and has a blink.

Why Rev can’t change to that as well? but sure why giving rev weapon swap is possible, but making it pseudo-melee is impossible somehow?…
If you look at it closely, rev is already pretty close, why thieves can stay on sword or dp for a long time without weapon swap? because they have gap closer without cooldown, which shiro provides.

like just make wells range target able like necro’s ones and there you have ranged pressure.

The reason that can’t happen is pretty simple, ele has two major disadvantages that balance them having that pseudo-melee style, lowest base armor and HP. Rev has high base HP and wears heavy armor, giving them high base armor as well. A rev with a pseudo melee style would have to be severely weakened in the DPS department to compensate.

well, if that’s what you want, don’t regret later saying you can’t have other nice things.
which classes has the best skills, you guessed it
and which class has the most boring skills and never get anything interesting?

i’m sure you understand…the less you have the more you gain.
if this is what you want then be it.

Please don’t listen to OP. Let us test out the weapon swap for ourselves in the next beta.

Lighter, you don’t seem to have clear enough the difference between legendswap and attunements. Also legend skills are getting buffed. The fact that currently some of them are underpowered has nothing to do with weaponswap (we got our most powerful legend skills AFTER weaponswap was introduced).

And they’re not removing it, deal with the fact that 99% of people gave them negative feedback for the lack of weaponswap and are happy with the current solution.

Not having weaponswap from the beginning made no sense. The ‘1 class from each armor type’ was never a good reason.

Kidel.2057:

You don’t seem to have clear enough the difference between legendswap and attunements. Also legend skills are getting buffed. The fact that currently some of them are underpowered has nothing to do with weaponswap (we got our most powerful legend skills AFTER weaponswap was introduced).

And they’re not removing it, deal with the fact that 99% of people gave them negative feedback for the lack of weaponswap and are happy with the current solution.

Not having weaponswap from the beginning made no sense. The 1 class from each armor type was never a good reason to force it.

The fact is that now having weapon swap, legend will be less buffed, skills on each weapon set will also be less buffed, everything will be less buffed.

they may merg Riposting Shadows and Phase Traversal and give another skill, but now with weapon swap and ranged weapon on hand, this may never happen

and i’m not comparing legend swap with attunement….

but i won’t against you, if this is what you want, be it and own it.
glhf

Weaponswap doesn’t make you stronger, expecially on revenant because of energy. It just allows to change playstyle according to situations.
The skill throughput is the same, unlike elementalist that can spam no-stop.

A sword/sword revenant has more dps then a sword/sword + mace/axe one that weaponswaps on cooldown.
(Also because sword’s best attack is auto attack that has no cd, so you get NO benefits from swap, except a very appreciated team support with fire field and blast, at the cost of dps)

3 Utility skill would have never been able to allow you to go ranged, unless with something like a kit. The only wayvto do that would be making an utility lika autoattack, but that’s a waste.

Also 2 legends and 2 weapons give the customization revenant needs.

Why do you say that? Revenant is weak compared to other classes. I don’t see how adding the ws in this case means they won’t buff other things. The class was so bad off they needed the ws and it STILL needs help quite frankly even with weapon swap. And like Kidel said above, it’s not like adding the ws makes the class overpowered. Not with that energy cost and cd. It just gives the class more versatility.

i seriously don’t want to argue over how having two weapon set doesnt make you stronger and how they will still buff skills like revenant didnt have weapon swap..
and how original the idea of just giving it a weaponswap as if this is the only way.

now i only hope that phase traversal works vertically, like JI. else this class has no potential to be a dps or compete with mesmer and thief or even med guard in a real PvP team as of now.

So you want worse option because of originality but you also want to compete with mesmer?

And why shouldn’t we talk about the dps decrease from swapping sword with any other weapon? (not to mention that everything that is not AA will drain upkeep and only sword does good dps with only AA).

Dude, to me you are just kitten because they didn’t use your suggestion. You argued too much before weaponswap got revealed and now you can’t admin that it’s the best solution.

Kidel.2057:

So you want worse option because of originality but you also want to compete with mesmer?

And why shouldn’t we talk about the dps decrease from swapping sword with any other weapon? (not to mention that everything that is not AA will drain upkeep and only sword does good dps with only AA).

Dude, to me you are just kitten because they didn’t use your suggestion. You argued too much before weaponswap got revealed and now you can’t admin that it’s the best solution.

to be fair, there’s never option, the game is ran by meta builds.
also, i find it funny that…you guys determined the weaponswap is the only way to give option…option that is pretty point less..because you will use the weapon that is bind to your second legend anyway…? alone with the same trait line…
not much of an option if you ask me, just an illusion of it..

Zev.3407:

Id rather keep weapon swap and they alter/buff the skills . . . o wait thats exactly why vwe have betas and feedback, that IS what is happening.

If there is no weapon swap the class feels very limited, and we would be screwed in situation where we need both range and melee. With elementalist you can switch atunements and have different ranged skills, engi has tons of kit options. Rev felt so predictable before with it’s limited custimization.

That is a problem that still exists, even with the weapon swap. All the Weapon swap did was band-aid the underlying problem of lacking cross-compatibility between weapons and legends.

I know I’m gonna catch flak for it, but comparing to every other class in the game, you have a range of synergy between weapons and traits….. but no class other then the Revanent requires a Specific weapon for an entire trait line to operate correctly. Even Marksmanship (the next closest pigeon hole) is broad enough to be used on an All-melee ranger.

I find weapon traits kinda useless except for devastation atm.

Kidel.2057:

deal with the fact that 99% of people gave them negative feedback for the lack of weaponswap and are happy with the current solution.

Fact? Where do you people get these numbers for these “facts”?

Kidel.2057:

The ‘1 class from each armor type’ was never a good reason.

Why?

How can you force game balancing on symmetry. Do I even need to explain that?

Kidel.2057:

How can you force game balancing on symmetry. Do I even need to explain that?

That’s not really game balance though. It’s just a way to provide variety to the heavy armor classes based on 2 other classes.

By your logic, what’s the point in having 3 different class groups? Then it becomes, why have different stats and not just have the same? Then it becomes why have different skills? Let’s just make everyone the same.

Legendswap and energy is enough vatiety

starlinvf.1358:

That is a problem that still exists, even with the weapon swap. All the Weapon swap did was band-aid the underlying problem of lacking cross-compatibility between weapons and legends.

I know I’m gonna catch flak for it, but comparing to every other class in the game, you have a range of synergy between weapons and traits….. but no class other then the Revanent requires a Specific weapon for an entire trait line to operate correctly. Even Marksmanship (the next closest pigeon hole) is broad enough to be used on an All-melee ranger.

Sadly, this may be an expanding design philosophy. One of the minor traits for the Dragonhunter more or less assumes that you will be using the longbow (and maybe the scepter) as those are the only weapons that qualify for being beyond the Pure of Sight range threshold.

Is this discussion really happening? You think the weapon swap doesnt solve the problems, problems you havent even mentioned, so removing it will? Simply saying the skills need work doesnt help anyone, that is just pointless bashing

Revenant last beta was really bad mostly because it lacked damage and mobility. With the addition of Shiro and weapon swap, this class went from 0-100 real quick. No one can say the class is bad now, im looking at blocks, evades, flat endurance regen, chase,escapes, damage, conditions control, decent stun breaks, great might and fury stacking, great healing (some of it might even get nerfed in future). This is everything the class needs, the only thing left is possibly adding a second execute on sword, perhaps making Sword 2 a heavy damage attack

What is questionable is cleansing and swiftness but this seems to be intentional. Thief doesnt have great cleanses or swiftness either so Rev might be getting the same treatment because of Shiro.Rev only has better cleanses than thief because there is no stealth Most of the condi control comes from resistance, might be challenging depending on mostly resistance to handle condis but im curious about how that will play out. If resistance and disengages are timed properly might be possible to always negate conditions. I just wish there was something to remove poison and burning specifically

The synergy between weapons and legends isnt from the skills but the traits and stats. If you think there is no synergy then check your build.

weapon swap i see it is a just a band aid, a cheap way to maybe fix some of revenants problems.

Would prob take arenanet too long to come up with another unique mechanic to solve for the revenants lack of weapon swap, like what engi and elementalist have. So sadly swap is here to stay. DOnt really like weapon swap since all you do is switch to it over and over, to get buffs or some condition. Boring mechanic imo.

…
No.
Kthx.
/Thread

Ragion.2831:

Is this discussion really happening? You think the weapon swap doesnt solve the problems, problems you havent even mentioned, so removing it will? Simply saying the skills need work doesnt help anyone, that is just pointless bashing

Revenant last beta was really bad mostly because it lacked damage and mobility. With the addition of Shiro and weapon swap, this class went from 0-100 real quick. No one can say the class is bad now, im looking at blocks, evades, flat endurance regen, chase,escapes, damage, conditions control, decent stun breaks, great might and fury stacking, great healing (some of it might even get nerfed in future). This is everything the class needs, the only thing left is possibly adding a second execute on sword, perhaps making Sword 2 a heavy damage attack

What is questionable is cleansing and swiftness but this seems to be intentional. Thief doesnt have great cleanses or swiftness either so Rev might be getting the same treatment because of Shiro.Rev only has better cleanses than thief because there is no stealth Most of the condi control comes from resistance, might be challenging depending on mostly resistance to handle condis but im curious about how that will play out. If resistance and disengages are timed properly might be possible to always negate conditions. I just wish there was something to remove poison and burning specifically

The synergy between weapons and legends isnt from the skills but the traits and stats. If you think there is no synergy then check your build.

I agree with you on the weaponswap stuff, but the class is still bad. It didn’t go from 0 to 100, but from 5 to 30.
It may be good with dps, but it’s a glass cannon. Revenant needs more survivability overall, Jalis needs to make Revenants able to tank, Mallyx doesn’t have to die of conditions or have external cleanses ruin it. I don’t even want to talk about Vantari.

All those I mentioned are issues that have nothing to do with weaponswap.

Weaponswap solves many other problems, and it does it very well. It needs to stay.

The problem with not having weapon swap was that each of the Revenant’s weapon sets are too specifically tailored to a certain build/legend for the class mechanic to work without it. What this did was create a disconnect between the two legends that you chose to work with, because your weapon only synergized with one of them, and the second legend was essentially just filler skills that weren’t useful for your build (which was especially apparent with builds featuring mace/axe or Mallyx). That made the idea of legend swapping pointless to begin with, which left the Revenant at a severe disadvantage with an effective total of 10 skills to work with AND an energy bar to maintain on top of it.

Weapon swap is needed, and while the class still needs work, adding it certainly helped close a rather large balancing gap.

I was against weapon swapping not because it wouldn’t help the revenant, but because it would be confusing and button-spammy when coupled with legend swapping.

Now that weapon swap is here to stay, I hope they find a way to streamline its play feel. Pressing two buttons to make Ventari work is not fun. Having to press two more buttons every time you want to swap weapons but have no energy left, or even three buttons if the legend you’re swapping to is Ventari, is incredibly unconfortable.

I don’t usually weaponswap a lot, while I do use a lot the F1 class mechanics.

Is it confusing to spam adrenaline skill on warrior and also having to swap from time to time? Nope.
Is it confusing to constantly spam F1 on guardian (renewed justice) and also use the other skills, while also swapping? Nope.
Is it confusing doing 4 (soon 5) shatters on mesmer and also having to swap? You get the idea.

It may be harder to manage more skills and stuff, but if making the class harder to use opens up new possibilities, I’m fine with it.

Plus Revenant will never be a button smashing class like ele or thief. You can’t simply keep swapping weapon and spam skills, because you have an energy cost.
You can give Revenant >9000 sets of weapons, the skill throughput will always be the same as 1 or 2 weapons.

Plus that’s not even comparable to what Engi has to do with 5 toolbelt skills plus many kits.

starlinvf.1358:

Zev.3407:

Id rather keep weapon swap and they alter/buff the skills . . . o wait thats exactly why vwe have betas and feedback, that IS what is happening.

If there is no weapon swap the class feels very limited, and we would be screwed in situation where we need both range and melee. With elementalist you can switch atunements and have different ranged skills, engi has tons of kit options. Rev felt so predictable before with it’s limited custimization.

That is a problem that still exists, even with the weapon swap. All the Weapon swap did was band-aid the underlying problem of lacking cross-compatibility between weapons and legends.

I know I’m gonna catch flak for it, but comparing to every other class in the game, you have a range of synergy between weapons and traits….. but no class other then the Revanent requires a Specific weapon for an entire trait line to operate correctly. Even Marksmanship (the next closest pigeon hole) is broad enough to be used on an All-melee ranger.

No flak at all here. The current traits for the Revenant are really bad. The lack of synergy between trait lines is awful. You can’t even merge those things into a coherent build…as they don’t work together to provide greater functionality…which is what a “build” is all about…the sum being greater than the parts. They really need to rework this. I’m not sure how they let this get past the drawing board…they literally paid someone to come up with this hot mess. I’d be embarrassed as a company to show this to anyone. You are absolutely correct, no other class has this absence of synergy across weapons and trait lines…so they have plenty of examples on how this should be looking. They do have a tendency to try and go the special snowflake route, which they should have learned from by now though. The reason necromancers and reapers are so busted now is because they try to focus on flavor over function sometimes…in direct conflict to their overall game design. It just took them years to start backing off of that regarding necro melee, mesmer ooc movement speed, and guardian ranged options. I’m still worried about how they are repeating their mistakes with the guardian minor that requires you to be at a certain range for it to work. Its the zeal mess all over again with the minors based on symbols. At some point, you need to learn from past mistakes and from current examples.

My reason for not wanting weapon swap is due to the fact that it was in a way a limiter that revs would have to work around. When in melee you are given the tools you need to fight even in a anti melee situation. I was looking forward to getting into those types of situations and improvise using my current tool kit instead of meh -swaps weapon cuz easier-.

Kidel.2057:

I don’t usually weaponswap a lot, while I do use a lot the F1 class mechanics.

Is it confusing to spam adrenaline skill on warrior and also having to swap from time to time? Nope.
Is it confusing to constantly spam F1 on guardian (renewed justice) and also use the other skills, while also swapping? Nope.
Is it confusing doing 4 (soon 5) shatters on mesmer and also having to swap? You get the idea.

It may be harder to manage more skills and stuff, but if making the class harder to use opens up new possibilities, I’m fine with it.

Plus Revenant will never be a button smashing class like ele or thief. You can’t simply keep swapping weapon and spam skills, because you have an energy cost.
You can give Revenant >9000 sets of weapons, the skill throughput will always be the same as 1 or 2 weapons.

Plus that’s not even comparable to what Engi has to do with 5 toolbelt skills plus many kits.

My problem is not with the number of skills available to the revenant. I can easily manage that. Afterall, I’ve played ele for two years.

The problem I have is with the amount of buttons that “do nothing unless you press yet another button”. It creates this feeling of redudancy, and it is something that you don’t see in any other class. All the examples you have given are skills that immediately do something. Pressing F1 with your warrior triggers your adrenaline skill. Pressing F1-4 with your elementalist changes your skillset. All those effects are immediate.

In contrast, there are several situations with the Revenant where you must press not one – but two or three times different buttons to even do a single action. The worst case example is the one I have given in my previous post. If you need to weapon swap but have no energy left, you will also have to legend swap to be able to use the secondary weapon skills. And if that legend happens to be ventari, you’ll also have to manually summon the tablet. That’s three button presses before you even do a single, meaningful action. It’s slow and inelegant.

To give an example, imagine that the game would force you to manually use skill 1. Imagine that there would exist no auto-attacking feature. Would that make the game harder? Would that make every profession automatically have more skills available? No and no. It would simply make the game more inconvenient to play, more clumsy and repetitive.

I don’t want less skills for the revenant. I want the existing skills to feel more responsive and immediate, so that the playing experience becomes smoother. Thus why I strongly suggest auto-summon tablet for ventari, and weapon swapping resetting your energy just like legend swapping, to avoid plenty of situations where there’s excessive button pressing for nothing.

lighter.2708:

what makes you think that there are no other ways to fall back during a fight and still have a means of actually doing something?
D/D is completely viable and one of the best builds in PvP.

Weaponswap is ok, it just brings another tool that actually was needed, people who compare Revenant to Elementalist (specially a cantrip build) just don’t get that there’s a lot of difference between having access to not only 20 weaponskills, but also to traits and utilities that have much more synergy than any of the weapon-trait-legend combinations on revenant… also what makes strong the cantrip D/D build is that you have on demand might through fire fields (which also apply a constant uptime of burn and is more than enough to make half of the condition pressure on the build), you have protection on attunement swap, fire aura if you leap trhough the fire field, stuns, regen, it’s the build that has the most condi clear… overall it’s the only build that does sustain well while just going thorugh your basic damage+stacking rotation, if a single trait, cooldown or field got changed the build would go out of the meta also that’s only viable if you’re a pointholder in PvP, most of the usefulness for PvE and WvW it’s that staff is ranged, has ridiculous damage, AoE and field avalability, the firefields are more than half of the reason elementalist is as strong as it is, it has acces for the most useful boons for your party and top notch dps, give that ammount of support, damage and versatility to any other profession and they’ll instantly be 80% better than Ranger or Necromancer.

As of the main point of the thread, IMO I do agree with you in the fact that weaponswap (or buffing the damage output on weapons) do help, but it doesn’t fix the problems the Revenant design has, the problem stems from the way the Energy+Legend Swap mechanic works. If you look at individual skills some of them seem strong on paper, but most of the time you find yourself using 1-2 skills then having to wait on regeneration or legend swap, it makes you easier to counterplay and actually harder for you to mitigate pressure while being able to deal damage, you either do one or the other and have little room for other ways of play, which ends up in making the profession feel like it lacks synergy, combat flow or that skills are not rewarding enough becuase they’re not cost-effective.

Having to wait for 10 seconds before you’re able to swap legends is what made the people ask for weaponswap in the first place because you were locked in a single legend running out of energy for 10 seconds while not being able to do much with just 1 weapon and no way to use your utilities, again comparing elementalist attunements and engineer kits with this mechanic is pointless overall kits and attunements add much more rewarding skills than having 10 utility skills (you can deal damage, stack boons and mitigate damage while waiting on CDs with ele, and you can stack conditions and boons while dealing damage and using utility on engineer also while waiting on important CDs), there’s no point in having 10 utility skills with no cooldowns if you’re gonna use 2 skills on each stance because of the high energy cost and wait 10 seconds to be able to do anything else besides autoattacks and 2-3 weapon attacks, let alone try to manage your energy and damage mitigation/output in an efficient way and that adds a lot to the profession feeling slow and with no synergy between skills and traits, If anything Legendswap cooldown should be either reduced or removed alltogether, yeah it sounds so strong and overpowered but if you take into account energy costs and cooldowns you actually make players think when it’s worth to burn your energy and CDs to your favor and add an easy way to add balance to the profession because you can always add cooldowns or change energy costs to skills instead of revamping the whole way the core of the profession works.

After playing Thief and Ele pretty hard since dropping my Ranger main (RIP) pressing a lot of buttons doesn’t bother me since I use a Nostromo and Naga. They’re right close and easy to press. Besides, going Ele wasn’t hard since I was use to micromanaging my stupid pet.

Rygg.6237:

Having to wait for 10 seconds before you’re able to swap legends is what made the people ask for weaponswap in the first place because you were locked in a single legend running out of energy for 10 seconds while not being able to do much with just 1 weapon and no way to use your utilities, again…[remove ele/eni rant]…if you’re gonna use 2 skills on each stance because of the high energy cost and wait 10 seconds to be able to do anything else besides autoattacks and 2-3 weapon attacks, let alone try to manage your energy and damage mitigation/output in an efficient way and that adds a lot to the profession feeling slow and with no synergy between skills and traits…

^ This is ultimately what is odd about the Revenant feel that weapon swap can’t fix. You can only run the same 1-2 “energy efficient” rotations because it is so limiting. Adding a weapon swap means you might have 2-3 rotations or another defensive/utility option but ultimately Revenant needs a Fast Hands -esque trait but focused on energy reduction/energy gain or handful of other traits like energy gain on critical hit, energy discount on next ability used in trait line, energy reduction after use of elite, energy reduction on all line skills after invoking a legend, etc…

TL;DR There is a feeling of a double-penalty. Cooldown prevents spamming (unlike the Thief with only initiative). And energy cost prevents chaining all weapon skills on cooldown (unlike pretty much every other non-thief class) and even prevents you using utilities when you want. It should be one or the other, but not both. Utility skills should use energy and weapon skills should use cooldown.

Artaz.3819:

Rygg.6237:

Having to wait for 10 seconds before you’re able to swap legends is what made the people ask for weaponswap in the first place because you were locked in a single legend running out of energy for 10 seconds while not being able to do much with just 1 weapon and no way to use your utilities, again…[remove ele/eni rant]…if you’re gonna use 2 skills on each stance because of the high energy cost and wait 10 seconds to be able to do anything else besides autoattacks and 2-3 weapon attacks, let alone try to manage your energy and damage mitigation/output in an efficient way and that adds a lot to the profession feeling slow and with no synergy between skills and traits…

^ This is ultimately what is odd about the Revenant feel that weapon swap can’t fix. You can only run the same 1-2 “energy efficient” rotations because it is so limiting. Adding a weapon swap means you might have 2-3 rotations or another defensive/utility option but ultimately Revenant needs a Fast Hands -esque trait but focused on energy reduction/energy gain or handful of other traits like energy gain on critical hit, energy discount on next ability used in trait line, energy reduction after use of elite, energy reduction on all line skills after invoking a legend, etc…

TL;DR There is a feeling of a double-penalty. Cooldown prevents spamming (unlike the Thief with only initiative). And energy cost prevents chaining all weapon skills on cooldown (unlike pretty much every other non-thief class) and even prevents you using utilities when you want. It should be one or the other, but not both. Utility skills should use energy and weapon skills should use cooldown.

If energy cost were removed from weapons, the cooldowns would probably be increased. Similarly, if cooldowns were removed, the energy costs would be increased. I think it’s okay to have both. I didn’t play Guild Wars 1, but it seems that many GW1 skills had both energy costs and cooldowns.

Personally, I would prefer that energy cost not be removed because I like the short cooldowns – I would hate to see 30 or 40+ second cooldowns on weapon skills like some other professions have. Removing the energy cost would turn many weapon skills into “use on cooldown” rather than “use when appropriate”, which requires more tactical decision making. Whether the current cooldowns and energy costs are balanced, of course, is another matter entirely.

Artaz.3819:

There is a feeling of a double-penalty. Cooldown prevents spamming (unlike the Thief with only initiative). And energy cost prevents chaining all weapon skills on cooldown (unlike pretty much every other non-thief class) and even prevents you using utilities when you want. It should be one or the other, but not both. Utility skills should use energy and weapon skills should use cooldown.

seriously … stop this !! i read the same nonsense in so much posts

1) the system is inspired by GW1 . and this is fine – GW1 also head Energy AND Cooldowns

2) removing Enegry would lead to increased cooldowns what will slow down the gameplay and the versitality – i prefer a 15 sec cooldown on Drop The Hammer with a 10energy cost way over a 20 or 25sec cooldown. (we know what cooldowns are normal on #5 skills)

3) Removing cooldowns would lead the utils to cost more as there is NO Energy drop aside from them

4) The whole gameplay would lead to the following situation: wait for 100e -> activate Upkeep -> nuke the kitten out of your skills while you have full 20seconds of your upkeep skill as there is again no energy drain on your skills -> repeat -> profit

This is totally braindead gameplay – just learn to manage your energy and/or learn to live with it or dont play revenant. The whole energy management is a main part of the Revenant class and it will stay this way.

We’re talking about ~5 – ~15 Energy here … most skills have an animation that is long enough to regain the used energy.

Loex.5104:

Artaz.3819:

There is a feeling of a double-penalty. Cooldown prevents spamming (unlike the Thief with only initiative). And energy cost prevents chaining all weapon skills on cooldown (unlike pretty much every other non-thief class) and even prevents you using utilities when you want. It should be one or the other, but not both. Utility skills should use energy and weapon skills should use cooldown.

seriously … stop this !! i read the same nonsense in so much posts

1) the system is inspired by GW1 . and this is fine – GW1 also head Energy AND Cooldowns

2) removing Enegry would lead to increased cooldowns what will slow down the gameplay and the versitality – i prefer a 15 sec cooldown on Drop The Hammer with a 10energy cost way over a 20 or 25sec cooldown. (we know what cooldowns are normal on #5 skills)

3) Removing cooldowns would lead the utils to cost more as there is NO Energy drop aside from them

4) The whole gameplay would lead to the following situation: wait for 100e -> activate Upkeep -> nuke the kitten out of your skills while you have full 20seconds of your upkeep skill as there is again no energy drain on your skills -> repeat -> profit

This is totally braindead gameplay – just learn to manage your energy and/or learn to live with it or dont play revenant. The whole energy management is a main part of the Revenant class and it will stay this way.

We’re talking about ~5 – ~15 Energy here … most skills have an animation that is long enough to regain the used energy.

Agreed
besides from whats been seen the energy manegment is easy on the Rev then it was on all classes back in GW1

lighter.2708:

Make the skills actually meaningful and good.

Weapon swap does not solve the problem revenant has.
People will still experience the same problem with weapon swap, without buffs.
it’s not about having more skills, it’s about how the skills work, they are bad and need change.

that’s it.

Weapon swap solves a lot of proplems for Rev given that certain wapons synergyse well with certain weapons eg axe/mace goes with Mallyx.
most of what has been shown and used in beta is subject to change so stop kittening

HarbingerAzrael.5691:

lighter.2708:

Make the skills actually meaningful and good.

Weapon swap does not solve the problem revenant has.
People will still experience the same problem with weapon swap, without buffs.
it’s not about having more skills, it’s about how the skills work, they are bad and need change.

that’s it.

Weapon swap solves a lot of proplems for Rev given that certain wapons synergyse well with certain weapons eg axe/mace goes with Mallyx.
most of what has been shown and used in beta is subject to change so stop kittening

Yea, then why engi and ele dont have these problems? lets give them weapon swap as well? you will say that’s too op? exactly.
you are just going for the lazy solution that doesnt fix anything while removing the class unique feature..
revenant was supposed to be the heavy that doesnt weapon swap,, if you want to play a heavy with weapon swap go play warrior or guardian, seriously.

lighter.2708:

HarbingerAzrael.5691:

Weapon swap solves a lot of proplems for Rev given that certain wapons synergyse well with certain weapons eg axe/mace goes with Mallyx.
most of what has been shown and used in beta is subject to change so stop kittening

Yea, then why engi and ele dont have these problems? lets give them weapon swap as well? you will say that’s too op? exactly.
you are just going for the lazy solution that doesnt fix anything while removing the class unique feature..
revenant was supposed to be the heavy that doesnt weapon swap,, if you want to play a heavy with weapon swap go play warrior or guardian, seriously.

Revenant was maybe intended to fit the pattern “1 class per armor type has no Weaponswap” – but Gameplay is more important than stupid patterns.

and the class unique feature is the Legend swap – the Weapon Swap has NOTHING to do with that

And yeah – ws is the maybe most obvious and easy solution – but it does its job

Loex.5104:

lighter.2708:

HarbingerAzrael.5691:

Weapon swap solves a lot of proplems for Rev given that certain wapons synergyse well with certain weapons eg axe/mace goes with Mallyx.
most of what has been shown and used in beta is subject to change so stop kittening

Yea, then why engi and ele dont have these problems? lets give them weapon swap as well? you will say that’s too op? exactly.
you are just going for the lazy solution that doesnt fix anything while removing the class unique feature..
revenant was supposed to be the heavy that doesnt weapon swap,, if you want to play a heavy with weapon swap go play warrior or guardian, seriously.

Revenant was maybe intended to fit the pattern “1 class per armor type has no Weaponswap” – but Gameplay is more important than stupid patterns.

and the class unique feature is the Legend swap – the Weapon Swap has NOTHING to do with that

And yeah – ws is the maybe most obvious and easy solution – but it does its job

Are you saying that Elementalist and engineer give bad gameplay by saying gameplay is more important than stupid patterns?
no. exactly, you don’t need weaponswap to have good gameplay, as long as you change the skills and values. you think GW2 played like this during beta? no…GW2 had clunky movements and everything.

This class is supposed to be the one set heavy, if you want to play two sets, go play warrior or guardian that’s why there’s multiple different classes, to have different design and cover up different gameplays for all players, i’m not sure why people keep trying to remove unique features, in the end it will just be like a warrior or a guardian then whats the point of playing a new class? just so you can show off? if you can’t become the best at your current class, you can’t become the best at this new class, simple as that.

Genesis.8572:

starlinvf.1358:

That is a problem that still exists, even with the weapon swap. All the Weapon swap did was band-aid the underlying problem of lacking cross-compatibility between weapons and legends.

I know I’m gonna catch flak for it, but comparing to every other class in the game, you have a range of synergy between weapons and traits….. but no class other then the Revanent requires a Specific weapon for an entire trait line to operate correctly. Even Marksmanship (the next closest pigeon hole) is broad enough to be used on an All-melee ranger.

Sadly, this may be an expanding design philosophy. One of the minor traits for the Dragonhunter more or less assumes that you will be using the longbow (and maybe the scepter) as those are the only weapons that qualify for being beyond the Pure of Sight range threshold.

All classes have weapon improving traits in their traitlines though. What’s wrong with Rev getting the same?

lighter.2708:

Are you saying that Elementalist and engineer give bad gameplay?….

i think you should start READING what others say and UNDERSTANDING it to be part of a senseful discussion ..

i said that the REVENANT Gameplay is much better with Weapon Swap and this fact is way more important than some stupid pattern of “omg there must be one soldier prof without weapon swap cuz reasons”

Engi and Ele are the last classes where you can talk about bad gameplay thoug … and why? … because they are versitile as kitten and can swap the hell out of their Skills to succeed in every situation ..

I think we dont need to do the math how many possible setups Eles and Engis have for combats against the few a Rev can bring to the party (also with Weapon-Swap)