Renegade is going to be terrible

Renegade is going to be terrible

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Posted by: Blood Red Arachnid.2493

Blood Red Arachnid.2493

Originally I was writing this as a response to another thread, but my ego is big enough that I deserve my own thread. My mother told me so, and she’s always right. Also the scope of my post was creeping beyond the discussion range of the thread so… new thread!

Anyway, I play Rev a lot. You can almost say I main it. The rev is my main class for WvW, and I play both a power spec and a condi spec in PVE. I like core rev, and I like the herald as well. Though the class is underpowered in optimal compositions, my relaxed playstyle means that the rev is excellent for all game types. The playstyle is low maintenance for all the support it brings. Also it looks cool.

The renegade… less so. I didn’t do much testing, but I did dip into the mists and try out several of the skills. I felt that the Renegade was lackluster, but hoped that maybe I just didn’t understand the class. But, as a curse of my slow witted nature, I slowly came to realize that I hate basically everything about the Renegade. I don’t like the skills, I don’t like the traits, I don’t like the weapon, I don’t like the class mechanic. In the end, I’m left wondering why I would ever bother playing the Renegade.

Section #1: The function skills
Section #2: The utilities.
Section #3: The shortbow
Section #4: The traits.

SECTION 1: FUNCTION SKILLS!!!

Heroic Command: Lets not mince words here. This utility exists solely to replace facet of strength. 20 energy, 10 second recharge, refreshes Fervor for 12 seconds, the skill is meant to spam off cooldown to keep permanent Fervor and 10 stacks of might. However, the steep energy cost means it won’t be used outside of roaming around in WvW, and only after winning an engagement. Because otherwise you don’t have the fervor to maintain the buff. Either way, refreshing fervor isn’t that useful, because building fervor is really easy.

Citadel Bombardment: I’m assuming that the wiki is wrong when it says this skill does 0 damage. But otherwise, the massive energy cost means that this skill is impossible to use. I have a hard enough time finding practical space to use unyielding anguish, since in WvW all my energy is spent on staying alive and in PVE all my energy is spent on group buffs. I would have to test it out to see if Bombardment is better than the team buffs, but initial signs point to no.

Orders from Above: A high energy cost skill that gives a paltry amount of Alacrity, which the Rev doesn’t really benefit from. This shaves 1.32 seconds off of everybody’s cooldowns. It’s not a meaningful buff, and the only time you’ll use this is when you’re standing before the boss room waiting for everyone’s cooldowns to finish.

Overall, the class mechanic is full of skills that are underpowered and cost too much energy to use. They just aren’t practical. Citadel bombardment is pretty, but it just isn’t practical. Pretty does not make for use.

I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.

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Posted by: Blood Red Arachnid.2493

Blood Red Arachnid.2493

SECTION 2: THE UTILITIES!!!

While I discuss these utilities, keep in mind that they can be disabled by enemy attacks, as well as killed by enemy attacks. In medium and large scale WvW engagements, these utilities are all useless. I have yet to test them out in fractals and raids, but the large amount of ambient damage can also render these skills useless.

Breakrazor’s Bastion: PoF is introducing new mechanics in the game to work as ablative defenses. Whereas before we were filled with condi cleanses and invulnerabilities, we are getting barrier and partial condi reduction. There is wisdom to things like Barrier, since it acts as a medium between being wholly invulnerable and utterly helpless. However, the introduction of these mechanics faces a large obstacle to their use: They are vastly inferior to the cleanses and invulnerabilities that already existed.

Case in point, Breakrazor is not a “good” skill for being balanced against condi damage, in light of the fact that other heal skills simply obliterate condi damage. A 3.1k heal that slowly becomes a 5.8k heal if you loiter in place for 10 seconds continues the trend of sub-par healing skills on the Rev. Having a stun break be attached to the heal skill is interesting, and it comes with advantages and disadvantages. However, having a ground targeted heal skill that can be controlled and killed is not a good thing, in basically any regard. The unique buff the skill gives is interesting, but inferior to generic cleanses. Everything with Breakrazor can go wrong, and there is no grand reward for things going right.

Razorclaw’s Rage: This skill may be useful. I’d have to compare it to others first on the golem. In PVP the skill is useless, and in WvW it has questionable use, but in PVE where you can more reliably get 5 people attacking once per second, it is actually good. Animation and skill flavor aside, Razorclaw basically inflicts 162.5 base bleed ticks. This pushes it into “good” territory, but against harder bosses I am afraid that the massive amount of AoEs in fractals and raids will render this skill moot. Unlike the class mechanics, this skill is actually worth using for its recharge and energy cost. One last problem is that this skill does not scale against multiple enemies. It inflicts a maximum of 162.5 base bleeds no matter what, so this damage can be spread out among multiple targets.

Darkrazor’s Daring: This is the only skill where being killable can be forgiven. It will be alright for breaking some bars, but many breakbars are up for less than 6 seconds. In PVP this skill can make for good area control, but it is a shame that Revs don’t have many interrupt traits. The steep energy cost means that it’ll be difficult to use, though.

Icerazor’s Ire: I will echo the common sentiment that this skill should cause chill, not cripple. Otherwise, this skill has limited use. It very slowly does average damage, sustaining 20 vulnerability and 3 seconds of cripple for its duration. For a condi build it definitely isn’t worth its cost. Again, this skill does not scale with multiple targets, so while against a single opponent the damage is meaningful, against multiple enemies it is a minor nuisance.

Soulcleave’s Summit: This is the only skill that has an upkeep, so technically this skill is an odd transformation. The leeching and healing seem alright at first, but once you realize that you can only leech life once per second, you learn that this skill is basically a well that pulses for 748 damage for every player near you, coming to 3.7k dps. In a group this is stronger than things like Vengeful Hammers and Impossible odds, but solo it isn’t. But nonetheless, if you’re in a group, Soulcleave’s Summit is probably the only skill you’re going to use. Ironically the healing it outputs is pretty good.

Overall, the renegades abilities nicely demonstrate the contradictory nature of the Renegade:

  1. The do not support allies. They are carried by allies. You need to be in a group to work.
  2. They do not scale against multiple enemies. They inflict static damage, whether it be against one enemy or multiple. They are bad against groups.
  3. The skills are all elaborate wells, so they require players to remain still inside of them to get their effect. They also require enemies to stay still inside of them.

From a PVP and WvW standpoint, there is no appropriate place to use these. If you’re by yourself and fighting a group, you’re dead. If you’re in a group fighting a single player, you can contribute meaningfully to fighting an enemy that is terribly outmatched and will lose anyway. If you’re in a group fighting a group, you’ll make minimal contributions because your skills don’t scale well against multiple enemies. If you’re against a zerg, your utilities won’t live long enough to matter. If you’re in a zerg, your teammates won’t stand still long enough to get the buffs, so the utilities are useless. Conclusion: There is no place to use these skills in PVP and WvW. They simply don’t work.

The only place you’ll get the full effect of these utilities is in PVE, in a group, fighting against a single immobile enemy. Thankfully that happens often. But, this also leaves the Renegade in a strange quandary, because their playstyle is going to be boxed into one of two tactics: Soucleave until legend swap, or Razor Claw until weapon swap. A condi build will blow all of its energy by the time legends end up off of cooldown if you use Soul Cleave, so you’ll end up flailing auto attacks. But, the high cost of the utilities means that, after you use Razor Claw, you don’t really have the energy to do much else. The utilities just don’t mesh well.

I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.

(edited by Blood Red Arachnid.2493)

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Posted by: Blood Red Arachnid.2493

Blood Red Arachnid.2493

SECTION 3: THE SHORTBOW!!!

This is where my analysis is the weakest, because without a golem to test things on, the overall effectiveness of the shortbow is unknown. While I like that condi builds are getting a more reliable ranged option, the Shortbow is… meh.

Shattershot: This skill seems alright. It is reminiscent of Fragmentation Shot from the engineers pistol, in the sense that Shattershot seems weaker in every way for some reason, but again, without a golem I can’t truly test what these skills do.

Bloodbane Path: This skill is all fluff and no substance. The odd angles means it gets blocked or dodged randomly. Thankfully the low cooldown means you’ll be spamming this a lot.

Sevenshot: Last I tested this skill, it didn’t work with the piercing trait. That aside, the skill is horribly impractical, because it demands that you use it at a price location at a precise range to hit precisely one target. The reverse shotgun is a terrible idea on a class that lacks the movement and rooting abilities to use it well. The thing about buffs and shields and wells is that they all want players to gather together. This skill wants you to separate yourself from the group, denying yourself of all the boons they normally provide.

Spiritcrush: Finally, a skill that simply works. I’d have to see how it works, because the wiki can be ambiguous at times, but otherwise this seems to be the only skill that is actually good.

Scorchrazor: It is a massive knockdown, but the animation time makes me think that it won’t have much tactical use.

Overall, the shortbow seems underpowered, in the sense that it exists and “does stuff”, but without a clear theme or synergy it is little more than trivia. Skills 2 and 3 are just convoluted ways of doing damage that have steep opportunity costs for low payoff. The rev really needs defensive skills on the shortbow, because as it stands now if Scorchrazor gets interrupted or blocked, a shortbow rev is a helpless punching bag.

SECTION 4: THE TRAITS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now, you’d think that the traits in the specialization might compensate for the bad utilities, bad function skills, and bad weapon. But they don’t.

Adept Tier

Ambush Commander: Basically the class mechanic. But, I’m going to use this opportunity to rant about yet another contradiction in the Renegades design. It is obvious from the energy costs and the lore that this isn’t supposed to be a class of direct confrontation. It is supposed to be a class that builds up its energy for a massive assault of skills. There are two problems with this design. First, the Renegade has absolutely no tools to do this. No disengage, no stealth, no invulnerability, no long range skills, no chasing skills, poor control. It is an ambush class with no ambush. Second, Kalla’s Fervor requires you to build it up in a fight, which you won’t do while saving energy for a burst of skills. It is like the concept, traits, utilities, and weapon were all designed by different people with no collaboration on what the Renegade is supposed to do.

However I digress. I will now continue to rant about the sub-par traits.

Ashen Demeanor: The thing with vulnerability is that it is only useful if you can either throw out a lot at once, or if you can sustain a healthy amount. Otherwise, short stints of vulnerability accomplishes very little. The Renegade does not have the control skills to make this work. The random spats of cripple and vulnerability are inferior to any kind of consistent source. Kalla’s Fervor is incredibly easy to gain, so the additional stacks from inconsistent traits are meaningless.

Blood Fury: Simple and effective. However, there is one really big problem with this trait. All bleed traits have poor synergy with core rev because the core Revenant does not inflict bleeds! The meta weapon build in PVE is still going to be Mace + Axe/Sword, and that setup inflicts poison, torment, and burn. The only way you’ll be inflicting bleeds is through geomancy sigils, and through Razorclaw. Now, in PVP and WvW this will be more useful because the shortbow may see the light of day. But, with the shortbow being a sub-par weapon, a trait that improves a sub-par weapon is by extension sub-par.

Wrought-Iron Will: This trait is an interesting one. The biggest problem with this trait is the range. 240 is really short, so nobody but your waifu and hordes of zerglings are going to get the benefits. But, retaliation on dodge is useful for a few extra damage ticks. This trait isn’t particularly stellar, though, and in PVE it is all but worthless.

I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.

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Posted by: Blood Red Arachnid.2493

Blood Red Arachnid.2493

Master Tier

Endless Enmity: The trait isn’t that bad. It is ironic that it works more to reinforce fury rather than give fury, but it has synergy with other specializations and it works well.

Sudden Reversal: Interesting. I would love to have the specs on the skill it uses, (range, duration, damage), but as a concept this is actually good. In PVP and WvW, this skill is going to use a stun right when you need it most, as an enemy comes charging in for the kill. In PVE it is worthless, though.

Heartpiercer: The damage buff to bleeds is alright, aside form the fact that core rev doesn’t use bleed. Shortbow piercing is basically coated bullets from Engineers again, and it suffers from the same issues: Doesn’t work half the time, more fun than useful. Overall, this trait will be taken in PVE because there is no better option, regardless of the fact that melee condi won’t use it.

All for one: At least your summons will do something before they’re feared and killed. Ironically, in nearly every practical application in PVP and WvW, this trait is going to have more of an impact than the actual summons will. That said, it is mostly useless for PVE, since it will proc once and then fade away. A few specs of protection aren’t too much of an impact though, so it is like most of the traits on this class just lightly nudge you toward victory instead of making a meaningful push. After all, a trait attached to sub-par skills is itself sub-par.

Grandmaster Tier

Brutal Momentum: … This can’t be real. A trait that is actually good? Yes! A good trait! Giving nearly permanent vigor is always useful, in every game mode. The crit chance bonus is currently buffed, but yet again it is useful in every game mode. Too bad the same can’t be said for the other Grandmasters.

Vindication: At least there are some traits that are good for running solo. Ironic that it is nearly useless in teams. I don’t know what the cooldown on gaining Kalla’s Fervor, though, so this trait either gives you a lot of might or basically none at all. The Citadel Bombardment is just a fancy way of saying that it has a situational 50% damage buff, but Citadel Bombardment is high cost and unreliable, so the trait itself is the same.

Lasting Legacy: The default PVE winner of the grandmaster tier, because Kalla’s Fervor is the main reason you’d bother taking this specialization in the first place. More on that later, but increasing the maximum number of stacks is meaningful and universal.

Righteous Rebel: This is the default PVP winner of the grandmaster tier. Having a blanket condition reduction is like having permanent protection, and the rev already has terrible condition management. Even with this trait, Orders from Above is still bad, since now all it does is shave 1.98 seconds off of cooldowns. 50% more of nothing is still nothing. Though the usefulness of this trait is called into question, since a condi rev in PVP has near limitless access to Resistance, which is far better than pseudo-protection.

Overall, the traits are uninspired. Several are generic buffs that don’t mesh with the rest of the class. Several are the most minimal increases in the chance for success. Several try to be unique but fail at doing so. There is two good, and these traits are the only draws to play this specialization. No, really. Everything else isn’t good enough to warrant notice. The utilities aren’t good, the f skills aren’t good, the weapon isn’t good.

Lasting Legacy is good because Kalla’s Fervor is good. With 10 stacks the Renegade gets 20% extra condition damage and 20% extra critical damage. These numbers are significant enough to warrant notice for condition builds. Condition builds never had a second line to run with, so they will go with Corruption, Devastation, Renegade in PVE as a default. And this is the only place where Renegade will see play.

In WvW, the inconsistent utilities, lackluster weapon, generally invisible traits, and the fact that condi specs have near permanent resistance means that there is no draw to use this class, even on condi specs. The same goes for PVP. The low maintenance, reliable buffs that Herald puts out is too good, as is Facet of Light. For Power Builds, AKA the builds that need the most buffs, Elder’s Focus is a better trait to do damage than Kalla’s Fervor. The only draw is the extra vigor, but Herald already has increased endurance generation.


There you have it. The Renegade attempts to be a rebel against good design. The utilities gather a load of weaknesses for the sake of being unique, and have no proper place in the vast majority of the game. The weapon is lackluster and might as well not exist. The traits are bad, with the exception of two, maybe three. The function skills cost too much and have too little an impact. The class is thematically designed for ambushes and mass expenditure, but the nature of energy management just makes the Renegade helpless prey while attempting to do this.

In PVE, the Renegade mildly buffs condition builds. Condition builds already did competitive damage, though, so they didn’t really need a buff. Power builds, the part of the Revenant which needed the most buffs, get nothing. In PVP, you’re better off sticking with the Herald.

I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.

(edited by Blood Red Arachnid.2493)

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Posted by: SidewayS.3789

SidewayS.3789

Too bad i can’t +1 more than once. You nailed what is wrong with Renegade.I can already see us using mace/axe 99,99% time since SB is soo so lackluster. Low cond dmg/low condi duration…Utilities are a mess, icerazor inflict cripple (lol) instead chill, to synergy with Abyssal Chill…Tbh i don’t see us in a good spot in PoF maybe like a last resort or something…

[Main]Kappy Ry – Asura Guardian [~You are all,Bookahs !!!~]
[Second Main]Korvus Mistreaver – Charr Revenant [~I’m blind not deaf~]
[Third Main] Vladdz – Asura Engineer [~In due times, all will serve asura~]

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Posted by: Joxer.6024

Joxer.6024

Amen and man I really wish that the Renegade we tested was simply that, a test. Else we doomed.

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Posted by: Loboling.5293

Loboling.5293

Thank you so much for your detailed feedback. I really love the revenant too (replaced ele as one of my main trio), and I hope the renegade gets the attention it needs. I see a lot of potential in it, but it’s held back by some high energy costs and bad mechanics.

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Posted by: ScottBroChill.3254

ScottBroChill.3254

Anet better look at this. They really frigged up on this one and need to own up to it and fix it.

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Posted by: Kidel.2057

Kidel.2057

And you aren’t even considering the whole boonrip and condi meta that is coming in PoF. Revenant as a whole will be out of the game, not only Renegade.

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Posted by: Professor Sprout.1560

Professor Sprout.1560

A few notes from my playtesting which on the whole back up the general thrust of your argument:

  • Citadel Bombardment: this skill sprays its missiles out over a fairly large area and with a slight delay, so if you are attempting to hit a single small target on the move (e.g. another player) I found you’ll often hit with few or no projectiles, so you’ll often deal less damage per target than the raw numbers might suggest. In PvE it might be usable against a large boss or to clear swarms of mobs that are spread out over a wide area, but will be squeezed out by more energy-efficient options unless something radical is done about its cost.
  • Breakrazor’s Bastion: obviously its terrible right now since the spirit can be killed or CC’ed, but if that was changed I do want to note that this skill has a wide area and very strong scaling with healing, so it works surprisingly well on a healing build as group aid. If therefore Anet were to bite the bullet and finally give each Revenant legend a choice between 4 utility skills Breakrazor could be adapted quite well as that 4th choice, with a new self-only healing skill being created to fill the gap.
  • Icerazor’s Ire: this spirit can be affected by the other warband DPS buffs, so if you have them all out these attacks can also bleed and steal life. Of course given how energy-expensive these skills are having several out at once will often not be possible, but hopefully that will change. Overall I found this skill to be a decent backup ranged attack, but only after I dumped shortbow from my build and went melee-only.
  • Soulcleave’s Summit: actually during the playtest this skill had no cooldown, and so effects which spammed a lot of attacks (e.g. Mad King Runes) were very powerful with it. It seemed to only apply to one target per AoE however (so e.g. just one of the 3 targets from Mad King runes would take lifedrain).
  • Sevencrush: in addition to the reasons you mentioned this skill has been lambasted for being really buggy, with projectiles failing to appear in all but the most featureless terrain.
  • Wrought-Iron Will: since healing power is a strong stat for Renegades the regeneration provided by this trait should not be discounted.
  • All For One: either the trait or the tooltip was bugged as this gave out significantly more protection in practice than the tooltip displayed. Since as you say the shortbow is weak and outside of shortbow the class has few bleeds I found this to be the most useful trait in quasi-PvE testing.
  • Vindication: Kalla’s Fervour has no ICD, so this gives out a lot of might. Another reason to love Mad King Runes.

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Posted by: Xernth.8561

Xernth.8561

Perfect, really great write-up.

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Posted by: Atamaz.4195

Atamaz.4195

I think there are some tweak i think would help

-Reduce by 5 energy shortbow skill #4 and #5 and double the duration of burn to be viable; 15e for 1 sec burn and 20e for 2 sec is too much.

-Fix line of sight on shortbow skill 3.

-Random ideas:
– for a shortbow skill: an arrow in a strait line that evade or knock down(if it replace skill#5), burn enemy that it goes through and teleport us at the end of the line so we can have a mobility skill(something like whirlwind attack form warrior GS).
– if the theme is a warband, why don’t give us a utility that buff ally inside it’s range?

- Fskill cost simply too much for what they do,
-Heroic Command is too energy consuming if used on cd(10 sec cd for 20 energy).
-Citadel Bombardment, maybe used as an aoe burst in pve but still need to be cheaper, in wvw you’ll just die to retaliation.
-Orders from Above, if alacrity continue to be unaffected by boon duration this skill is simply useless because to stack a decent quantity of alacrity by yourself you need both this and ventari and even spamming camping tablet you do 0 dps and don’t reach 100% uptime probably because…too energy consuming(and in pve you don’t want another healer when druid give grace of the land and necro give a lot of barrier, and chrono are still better for alacrity/quickness).

-For WvW/PvP, I didn’t test this thing, but trait line may not be that kittentrange as it seem i don’t think you need the shorbow or khalla legend equipped to benefit from the trait line. What are the benefit? 53% crit without any precision of equip(73% with roiling mists), 150 ferocity & 10% condi duration(doubled by Lasting Legacy), Righteous Rebel reduced condi damage on us, so we can use some more defensive oriented equip and still have decent dps or just go strait dps and destroy all.

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Posted by: Blood Red Arachnid.2493

Blood Red Arachnid.2493

I don’t have a dedicated WvW spec. I just bring my PVE weapons + armor, and have some ascended marauders trinkets that were easy to get. With that setup and cheap canned WvW food, I break 100% crit chance.

The best part about Brutal Momentum is the vigor. The crit chance increase seems good on paper, but in practice you’ll only have full endurance if you’re tossing hammers in ship vs. ship combat, or at the beginning of the fight. I wouldn’t expect that 30% to really be there otherwise, because again the Renegade is an ambush class with no ambush.

The synergy with Endless Enmity also comes with a highly situational activation window. You have to critical hit an enemy under 50% health. It is no use at the beginning of the fight. In the middle of the fight, you have to critical hit to get fury. For a zerker or marauder build this is a QoL trait, but running Valkyries, you encounter a big problem: in order to get fury, you need to already have fury.

This is true for Brutal Momentum as well. To get the critical hit bonus, you need critical hits to get the fury to get the vigor to get the critical hits to get the fury to get the… and the cycle continues. On a Valkyrie build the traits create a Kafkaesque loop where you need everything in order to get everything. And “everything” starts at 50% health, so you need to already be effectively killing your opponent in the first place.

The Renegade minor traits must piggyback off of the Invocation line in order to take effect, and it only does this so well. The third obstacle that a Valkyrie line faces is that Kalla’s Fervor only reliably stacks off of critical hits, which reinforces the loop. As much as I’d like to think that the Renegade is the new DS Reaper, it just isn’t reliable enough critical hit generation to go YOLO with valkyrie gear. The minors work best when you don’t need them, except for Vigor which you always need.

Besides, I can just go Invocation + Herald and enter every fight with 30 seconds of fury on my entire team and have 95% crit chance from rolling mists. Righteous Rebel is pretty good for power builds, though.

I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.

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Posted by: Fractured.3928

Fractured.3928

I don’t have a dedicated WvW spec. I just bring my PVE weapons + armor, and have some ascended marauders trinkets that were easy to get. With that setup and cheap canned WvW food, I break 100% crit chance.

The best part about Brutal Momentum is the vigor. The crit chance increase seems good on paper, but in practice you’ll only have full endurance if you’re tossing hammers in ship vs. ship combat, or at the beginning of the fight. I wouldn’t expect that 30% to really be there otherwise, because again the Renegade is an ambush class with no ambush.

The synergy with Endless Enmity also comes with a highly situational activation window. You have to critical hit an enemy under 50% health. It is no use at the beginning of the fight. In the middle of the fight, you have to critical hit to get fury. For a zerker or marauder build this is a QoL trait, but running Valkyries, you encounter a big problem: in order to get fury, you need to already have fury.

This is true for Brutal Momentum as well. To get the critical hit bonus, you need critical hits to get the fury to get the vigor to get the critical hits to get the fury to get the… and the cycle continues. On a Valkyrie build the traits create a Kafkaesque loop where you need everything in order to get everything. And “everything” starts at 50% health, so you need to already be effectively killing your opponent in the first place.

The Renegade minor traits must piggyback off of the Invocation line in order to take effect, and it only does this so well. The third obstacle that a Valkyrie line faces is that Kalla’s Fervor only reliably stacks off of critical hits, which reinforces the loop. As much as I’d like to think that the Renegade is the new DS Reaper, it just isn’t reliable enough critical hit generation to go YOLO with valkyrie gear. The minors work best when you don’t need them, except for Vigor which you always need.

Besides, I can just go Invocation + Herald and enter every fight with 30 seconds of fury on my entire team and have 95% crit chance from rolling mists. Righteous Rebel is pretty good for power builds, though.

Kinda off topic, but ship vs ship?

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Posted by: Sylvyn.4750

Sylvyn.4750

Kinda off topic, but ship vs ship?

When you have two groups circle each other at a distance and fire off ranged attacks, just like pirate ships or other wooden warships circling each other to get all their broadside canons facing the enemy.

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Posted by: geekilo.8512

geekilo.8512

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493
I play a lot of Reaper in pvp and wvw. The game-play is basically stay at range, then run when you’re getting focused and pray for your life. Keep in mind, Reaper got 2 sources of stability, can kite around with #2 in RS and meat shield 2nd HP bar. I see Renegade is the same situation but they have no reliable source of stability, no movement ability, and destructible utilities. They are going to be sitting duck in pvp.

Shortbow – It’s a full offensive condition weapon with no utility
Skill #2 – i don’t understand its purpose. It’s like they just slap it in, here is SB#2. Horrible animation
Skill #3 – Very buggy. I just wish you can control where the center is
Skill #4 – Remind me of DH LB#4 pretty useless – add pulse Breakrazor’s Bastion (-33% condition damage) while you or your allies are in radius
Skill #5 – Remind me of Mes GS#5- pretty good skill overall. Please make it into a skillshot like DH LB#3

I would love if they redesign SB#2 into a movement skill – 600 range dash, 2 ammos, shoot out 3 projectiles at the end of the dash, and inflict 2 stack of bleeds. Swap this skill with SB#3. I say this because i noticed similarity in design between classes.

For example:
Warrior- GS#2 is a damage ability, GS#3 is a movement/evade ability.
Ranger- SB#2 is a damage ability, SB#3 is a movement/evade ability. Revenant- Hammer#2 is damage ability, Hammer #3 is a evade ability.
Mesmer- Sword#2 is a damage/evade ability, Sword#3 is a movement skill.
Guardian- GS#2 is damage ability, GS#3 is a 600 range movement ability.
Thief- SB#2 is damage ability, SB#3 is a backward movement/evade ability

WHY THIS DESIGN DOESN’T APPLY TO RENEGADE’S SHORTBOW????

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Posted by: ventusthunder.5067

ventusthunder.5067

+1d. As much as I was willing to give Renegade a chance going into the beta weekend you are completely and totally correct in pretty much every facet of your argument.

There’s so many things about renegade that COULD be good and just fall completely short, which makes me more than a little salty.

collector of liquid aurillium

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Posted by: ArthurDent.9538

ArthurDent.9538

The best part is that Kalla’s fervor is going to single handedly make renegade the optimal for rev for raids. So it won’t change gameplay at all really, you are just forced to take the traitline to passively do a bit more damage.

14 Dungeon paths soloed
Lupi solos on 9/9 professions
Wost Engi NA

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Posted by: Zenith.7301

Zenith.7301

The cutest part was Irenio bragging about how that awful reverse shotgun skill on shortbow encourages ranged play without stopping for a moment to think that ranged play has no place in PvE BECAUSE they haven’t fixed boon stacking to work outside melee range.

These skills also mean many more skills foiled by terrain just like how hammer 2 and 3 still don’t work on anything but perfectly flat terrain or unrelenting assault bugging out constantly.

I tested that shortbow, and the skills were just garbage. Low damage, and to boot more positional encouragements that make no sense on a class as immobile as revenant.

I’ll use the shortbow only because condi rev has no other choice for ranged options when forced off boss, but it’s such a horrendously bad weapon right now. Nowhere close to the power level of hammer, which feels like a really solid ranged weapon.

I also hate endurance based bonuses minor traits. You are effectively punished in damage output for dodging correctly.

Just make it a 7-10% damage increase against foes afflicted with bleeding/torment or when at max Kalla’s Fervor stacks.

(edited by Zenith.7301)

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Posted by: ScottBroChill.3254

ScottBroChill.3254

So we have a shortbow, it has 4 damage skills that do barely any damage. Either make it rain death or make it a utility weapon, but right now it doesn’t contribute to anything and the only reason to use it would be because you can’t get in close range. I’m sure hammer does even more damage even with a condi build because it actually has decent base damage, and it has 300 more range.

Idk why they made it a damage weapon anyway. Because it’s ranged it’s theoretically going to be weaker than mace, or at least if it’s balanced. This means it doesn’t really serve a purpose. Make it a utility, cc, or movement weapon or something that would fill some of the many cracks rev has. Also it would make a hell of a lot more sense if it applied torment and chill, seeing as these are the classes core conditions and torment on a ranged weapon is way better.

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Posted by: Zenith.7301

Zenith.7301

The worst part is they made Kalla revolve all around bleeding instead of torment in traits, which means mace/axe condi builds will derive marginal benefit from the traits themselves since that weapon combo does no bleeding.

The traits should include torment in their boosts to accommodate mace/axe in condi builds.

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Posted by: Blood Red Arachnid.2493

Blood Red Arachnid.2493

I do doubt the usefulness of the shortbow as a condi weapon. The mace/axe combo is a melee set in technicality. In practice, it is quite good at ranged engagements. Searing Fissure controls space, Echoing Eruption and Temporal Rift hit from a long distance, Unyielding Anguish can move surprisingly fast and has massive utility. In WvW I can already dish out quite the damage in skirmishes without having to belly up to auto attack.

I mean, lets compare two skills. Sevenshot and Echoing Eruption. All impracticality aside, Sevenshot will inflict 21 base torment ticks every six seconds. I’m going to put this down as 3.5 ticks per second. Echoing Eruption inflicts 50 base torment ticks every 8 seconds (assuming you don’t hit twice), coming to 6.25 ticks per second. This gives Echoing Eruption 79% more torment. Lets sum it up all together:

Echoing Eruption
Pro: Blast Finisher.
Pro: Hits a large area at greater range
Pro: Does 78% more condi damage
Pro: Is a movement skill
Pro: Lower energy cost.
Pro: Allows multiple off-hand weapons
Pro: Can hit the same target twice
Con: The movement can be uncontrollable at times

Sevenshot
Pro: Does 57% more direct damage
Pro: Combo Finisher (20%)
Con: Only works at exact distance
Con: Doesn’t scale with enemies
Con: Easily body blocked.
Con: Higher energy cost
Con: On the shortbow.

So, why would I even bother with the shorbow?

I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.

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Posted by: narcx.3570

narcx.3570

Sevenshot
Pro: Does 57% more direct damage
Pro: Combo Finisher (20%)
Con: Only works at exact distance
Con: Doesn’t scale with enemies
Con: Easily body blocked.
Con: Higher energy cost
Con: On the shortbow.

So, why would I even bother with the shorbow?

Some other Major Cons for Sevenshot:
- You have to back up to make all all of it hit (on small hitbox) thus putting the target out of range of Embrace the Darkness or Hammer pulses.
- Echoing Eruption Torment has a base duration of 10 seconds, Seven Shot’s Torment has a base duration of 3 seconds… The different becoming even greater the more expertise you build.

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Posted by: lmaogg.7325

lmaogg.7325

this thread needs to get bump all the way to the CEO of anet.

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Posted by: Street Peddler.2638

Street Peddler.2638

as it is now, you’d take renegade solely for Fervor and play exactly like you were before, horrible outlook for a new sub-class.

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Posted by: flyingfox.6150

flyingfox.6150

this and Soulbeast, laziest implementation in an expansion class, ever. Ideas are OK but execution is absolutely depressing.

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Posted by: Kidel.2057

Kidel.2057

as it is now, you’d take renegade solely for Fervor and play exactly like you were before, horrible outlook for a new sub-class.

Except without F2 skill, since now it costs too much compared to Herald’s

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Posted by: Madara.7435

Madara.7435

I like the analysis. I had an idea regarding the utility skills and their ability to be killed. I understand the devs maybe want some counterplay to it (if it was something to worry about lel) but why not instead of giving it a health bar give it a break bar? they wouldnt die instantly vs aoe and enemies would have to use cc to kill them, which they then wont be using on you.
Good idea or short sighted?

———
Madara

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Posted by: Kidel.2057

Kidel.2057

the counterplay would have been “get out of the aoe”, like it has always been with Wells.

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Posted by: Blood Red Arachnid.2493

Blood Red Arachnid.2493

In theory you balance the summons by making them stronger than the average well. In practice, they didn’t do this. Instead, we get two skills that act like offensive wells, and the other three act as very odd buffs that require teammates to be any good, and each one is generally unfulfilling.

The energy costs definitely hold them back. If you could drop both Icerazor and Darkrazor in an area, you would get solid combination of disables and damage that would make for good point control. Problem is, both skills cost a total of 70 energy to use. You simply can’t layer them up. Of course, Necromancers and Chronomancers don’t have a problem layering their wells. Hell, I’ve been hit by double gravity several times in WvW.

Individually they’re weaker than wells, they have a destructible component on top of their effects, and because of energy costs they’re also mutually exclusive with each other. You can only use the best PVP combo after 4 seconds of combat while using no energy for other skills.

I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.

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Posted by: Kidel.2057

Kidel.2057

In theory you balance the summons by making them stronger than the average well. In practice, they didn’t do this. Instead, we get two skills that act like offensive wells, and the other three act as very odd buffs that require teammates to be any good, and each one is generally unfulfilling.

The energy costs definitely hold them back. If you could drop both Icerazor and Darkrazor in an area, you would get solid combination of disables and damage that would make for good point control. Problem is, both skills cost a total of 70 energy to use. You simply can’t layer them up. Of course, Necromancers and Chronomancers don’t have a problem layering their wells. Hell, I’ve been hit by double gravity several times in WvW.

Individually they’re weaker than wells, they have a destructible component on top of their effects, and because of energy costs they’re also mutually exclusive with each other. You can only use the best PVP combo after 4 seconds of combat while using no energy for other skills.

Yes, that’s the main reson why Kalla is useless in any game format.
On top of that you also have very costly F-skills and everything has cooldown for some reason, like you could spam those skills if there was no cooldown.

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Posted by: Sylvyn.4750

Sylvyn.4750

No change in the energy costs at least in today’s 2-hour PvE stress test…

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Posted by: Zenith.7301

Zenith.7301

No change in the energy costs at least in today’s 2-hour PvE stress test…

If you think that a build from a month before release is anything but release candidate, you are hopelessly naive.

They don’t make changes to release builds one month before release.

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Posted by: Neeja.4579

Neeja.4579

Everything with Breakrazor can go wrong, and there is no grand reward for things going right.

Remove “with Breakrazor” and you basically have a tl;dr description of Revenant and Renegade in PoF.

If you think that a build from a month before release is anything but release candidate, you are hopelessly naive.

You’re right, but at this point I expect them to only change numbers, that won’t solve much since Kalla doesn’t appeal by any point of view. It’s a failure even if they make it strong.

They should have started gaining community feedback long ago.

(edited by Neeja.4579)

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Posted by: Calcifire.1864

Calcifire.1864

No change in the energy costs at least in today’s 2-hour PvE stress test…

If you think that a build from a month before release is anything but release candidate, you are hopelessly naive.

They don’t make changes to release builds one month before release.

that’s strange, because I’m pretty sure there was a dev post saying that there were going to be number tweaks and bugfixes, but unfortunately they weren’t going to be in the stress test

now where could I have got that idea?

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Posted by: Fractured.3928

Fractured.3928

No change in the energy costs at least in today’s 2-hour PvE stress test…

If you think that a build from a month before release is anything but release candidate, you are hopelessly naive.

They don’t make changes to release builds one month before release.

Note: I’m not happy with Revenant, or POF in general, its just mount gimmicks, and elite specs. Nothing really special or unique being added.

However, GW2 release has been extremely different from the tests players get beforehand. I don’t know why, but it is always significantly and clearly better. I remember this for both GW2 launch, and HoT launch. So I’ll give them that.

With that said, since Revenant hasn’t been touched this entire time, I doubt it will be changed now, besides maybe a bug fix. Definitely not the rework that is required.

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Posted by: ScottBroChill.3254

ScottBroChill.3254

I think they had a good starting idea of what the class should be, but before they finished the idea they had to start making it. Then they just never finished the idea so we have a class based on nothing but “invoking legends” with no real clear goal in mind.
It’s like playing ele with nothing but conjured weapons. You basically summon a conjured weapon (or swap legends) and just use one skill.

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Posted by: Blood Red Arachnid.2493

Blood Red Arachnid.2493

If you follow the lore of the legend, the idea behind the class is to use hit and run tactics to build energy, then use the utilities and f skills to unload a lot of damage and control a lot of space. Basically, play like a WvW thief. Unfortunately, the class has no skills that enable hit and run tactics, so the way it actually plays is as slow moving prey.

I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.

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Posted by: messiah.1908

messiah.1908

If you follow the lore of the legend, the idea behind the class is to use hit and run tactics to build energy, then use the utilities and f skills to unload a lot of damage and control a lot of space. Basically, play like a WvW thief. Unfortunately, the class has no skills that enable hit and run tactics, so the way it actually plays is as slow moving prey.

the lore of the legend is to surprise your enemies and buff your allies

the buff i can get with the elite skill and maybe f2 and healing skill
the surprise part i dont get it at all. no stealth, no evades, no blind, no teleport and no sustain at all.
so basically you saying to your enemy " hey i coming . i need to build nrg so dont attack me. when i have 100% i will buff my allies so please dont attack my spirit as they cost too much and please please dont move from the area of effect so you could take all the dmg. thanks renegade "

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Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

Shouldn’t the class have a “summon spec” traitline? Like one that gives all the utilities basic buffs like Stability, protection, etc. so that they’re more survivable? Another that makes it so that instead of just having a pulsing field, they can also target up to five characters within their radius when they are cast, and then “lock on” to those targets, pulsing out their effects even if those targets leave the field? Stuff like that sounds like a good idea for making them more useful.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

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Posted by: Kidel.2057

Kidel.2057

The word “lore” you’ve been using is kinda strange. By lore Kalla should have a Greatsword. By lore Revenant should channel legends and become them, not summon.

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Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

Kalla’s statue has a greastword, but is there evidence that she didn’t also use a bow? She was the granddaughter of Pyre Fierceshot. And as for “becoming” vs. “summoning,” the Revenant is “becoming” Kalla, wielder of the bow, but her legend was as a great leader of warriors, and because of that, her powerset is based on summoning those soldiers into action. She’s like Alexander the Great in Fate/Zero.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

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Posted by: Burtnik.5218

Burtnik.5218

No change in the energy costs at least in today’s 2-hour PvE stress test…

If you think that a build from a month before release is anything but release candidate, you are hopelessly naive.

They don’t make changes to release builds one month before release.

that’s strange, because I’m pretty sure there was a dev post saying that there were going to be number tweaks and bugfixes, but unfortunately they weren’t going to be in the stress test

now where could I have got that idea?

“number tweaks and bugfixes” sadly they dont matter at all, renejoke is a failed concept and you will never take Kalla to pvp/wvw in current state.

Salt, salt, moar salt. So salty like fries from McDonald!
Playing Smite since mid s2, f broken gw2.

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Posted by: arnitheking.8427

arnitheking.8427

Chiming in to say that I absolutely agree with the op, think he nailed it basically, I might also add that I think number 5 on shortbow should be a skillshot (similar to dh longbow 3), number 4 should be castable while looking away from your opponent (it should just turn you around automatically like ranger longbow 5). Number 3 is a cute idea but it’s waaaay too weak. it’s borderline impossible to land it in pvp and even if you manage to do so it’s way too unrewarding.

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Posted by: narcx.3570

narcx.3570

The word “lore” you’ve been using is kinda strange. By lore Kalla should have a Greatsword. By lore Revenant should channel legends and become them, not summon.

I wish people would stop complaining about not getting Greatsword and worry about the real problems with Renegade.

Every time I see a post about Greatswords or a lack of underwater legend access I die a little inside because I just know that A.net will be like, “Oh hey, people want this!” And then give us that instead of cleanse or something that leads to a desired role in raids or a heal that doesn’t rely on fail play from your opponents in PvP or something else that we actually need.

I feel like this is probably what happened with Renegade in the first place, A.net saw a bunch of forum warriors QQ’ing about not having a ranged condi weapon (something that we didn’t even need and doesn’t even fit with the rest of our kit) and decided that it would be the feature they’d implement to save their revenant community and bolster expansion sales.

Look, we get it, you’re finally the 75 millionth person to get their Eternity and want to use it on every character you have… That’s cool, but can’t you just get your fix on your guardian, reaper, or op wvw zerker?

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Posted by: arnitheking.8427

arnitheking.8427

this and Soulbeast, laziest implementation in an expansion class, ever. Ideas are OK but execution is absolutely depressing.

Soulbeast? Soulbeast is amazing, adds so much complexity if you use it correctly and swap in and out of beastmode, and it is actually useful in pvp… would never put soulbeast and renegade in the same box

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Posted by: Buran.3796

Buran.3796

I feel like this is probably what happened with Renegade in the first place, A.net saw a bunch of forum warriors QQ’ing about not having a ranged condi weapon (something that we didn’t even need and doesn’t even fit with the rest of our kit) and decided that it would be the feature they’d implement to save their revenant community and bolster expansion sales.

Let me start saying that I have Eternity (in a DH which doesn’t uses it) and still I was all about getting a ranged condi weapon, and if ANet ask me “which weapon you want in the next expec?” I will shout “A CONDI PISTOL!” Now, let me explain why:

Since the murdering of Phase Traversal and Unwavering Avoidance both the power Rev and the condi Rev are utterly overshadowed in duels/roaming by the stealth/reset condi meta: you can’t chase foes because you need to preserve energy for your breakstuns, cleanses and ofensive skills (in that order) so after a few seconds you can’t barely move and you end destroyed by ranged attacks/condi pressure. This is mitigated in PvP to some extent because you at least can defend a point for a while, but when theresn’t a control point to fight for the disengage tools + range/condi pressure from other classes gets the Revenant demolished. Hammer is a one trick pony weapon which kills you once a fight goes to mele.

So, the expectations were to have a ranged hybrid weapon able to do condition pressure and maybe to have some helpful tools, which finally happens that the short bow isn’t. Id doesn’t synergizes with Corruption, it doesn’t plays well in uneven terrain, id doesn’t provides the damage numbers to pressure our foes or the utilities to keep us alive. I expected the Renegade to be a PvP focused spec, and my predictions failed spectacularly; you wanted a fix for the current Revenant state in PvE raids and that also didn’t happened. Congrats: both were fooled.

And now let me say that ultimately I talk with money: before the betas I was guessing about purchasing either the basic expansion or the ultimate one. This morning my pocket talked volumes and I spent 29,99 € in the basic expansion. Could have been 80 € due the bargain in the gems was appealing, but since the Revenant specialization happens to be almost useless to solve the problems I have in the game modes I play I saw no compeling reason to spent extra money in this dissapointing class spec.

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Posted by: Burtnik.5218

Burtnik.5218

I feel like this is probably what happened with Renegade in the first place, A.net saw a bunch of forum warriors QQ’ing about not having a ranged condi weapon (something that we didn’t even need and doesn’t even fit with the rest of our kit) and decided that it would be the feature they’d implement to save their revenant community and bolster expansion sales.

We wanted a core ranged condi wep. Not something locked behind e-spec. And shortbow sux anyway, it has 0 defensive tools with 900 range. Wish they used my concept for rifle which i made over a year ago.

1. Sphere of Anguish – Fire a shoot towards your target. Inflict increasing durations of torment, the farther away that your foe is from you.

-Damage; 135 (0.45)
-Torment:
800+ range – 5sec
400-800 range – 4sec
0-400 range – 3sec
-Combo Finisher: Physical Projectile 20%
-3/4 sec cast time
-Number of targets; 1

2. Venomous Spheres – Fire three poisoned spheres towards your foe.

-Damage (x3): 70 (0.20)
-Poison: 3x, 5 sec duration
-Cd; 4
-Cast time: 1sec
-Pierces
-Number of targets: 5
-Energy cost: 5
-Combo Finisher: Physical Projectile

3. Frigid Sphere – Fire a frigid sphere towards your foe deflecting projectiles on it way and chilling opponents as it pass through.

-Damage: 165 (0.5)
-Chill: 2 seconds
-Radius: 120
-Cd: 8
-Cast time: 1/4
-Combo Finisher: Physical Projectile
-Pierces
-Number of targets: 5
-Energy cost: 5

4. Igniting Sphere – Ignite target area, burning nearby foes.

-Damage (x4): 125 (0.4)
-Burning: 2x, 2sec
-Radius: 240
-Cd; 12
-Cast time: 3/4
-Combo Field: Fire
-Duration; 3 seconds
-Pulses: 4
-Ground targeted
-Number of targets: 5
-Energy cost: 10

5. Diabolic Eruption – Blast the ground, damaging and immobilizing your foes. Upon blasting shadowstep backward.

-Damage: 335 (1.0)
-Immobilize: 2sec
-Cast time: 1/2
-Cd: 15sec
-Number of targets: 5
-Shadowstep range: 600
-Energy cost: 15
-Combo Finisher: Blast

Salt, salt, moar salt. So salty like fries from McDonald!
Playing Smite since mid s2, f broken gw2.

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Posted by: Warrost.4895

Warrost.4895

I feel like this is probably what happened with Renegade in the first place, A.net saw a bunch of forum warriors QQ’ing about not having a ranged condi weapon (something that we didn’t even need and doesn’t even fit with the rest of our kit) and decided that it would be the feature they’d implement to save their revenant community and bolster expansion sales.

We wanted a core ranged condi wep. Not something locked behind e-spec. And shortbow sux anyway, it has 0 defensive tools with 900 range. Wish they used my concept for rifle which i made over a year ago.

1. Sphere of Anguish – Fire a shoot towards your target. Inflict increasing durations of torment, the farther away that your foe is from you.

-Damage; 135 (0.45)
-Torment:
800+ range – 5sec
400-800 range – 4sec
0-400 range – 3sec
-Combo Finisher: Physical Projectile 20%
-3/4 sec cast time
-Number of targets; 1

2. Venomous Spheres – Fire three poisoned spheres towards your foe.

-Damage (x3): 70 (0.20)
-Poison: 3x, 5 sec duration
-Cd; 4
-Cast time: 1sec
-Pierces
-Number of targets: 5
-Energy cost: 5
-Combo Finisher: Physical Projectile

3. Frigid Sphere – Fire a frigid sphere towards your foe deflecting projectiles on it way and chilling opponents as it pass through.

-Damage: 165 (0.5)
-Chill: 2 seconds
-Radius: 120
-Cd: 8
-Cast time: 1/4
-Combo Finisher: Physical Projectile
-Pierces
-Number of targets: 5
-Energy cost: 5

4. Igniting Sphere – Ignite target area, burning nearby foes.

-Damage (x4): 125 (0.4)
-Burning: 2x, 2sec
-Radius: 240
-Cd; 12
-Cast time: 3/4
-Combo Field: Fire
-Duration; 3 seconds
-Pulses: 4
-Ground targeted
-Number of targets: 5
-Energy cost: 10

5. Diabolic Eruption – Blast the ground, damaging and immobilizing your foes. Upon blasting shadowstep backward.

-Damage: 335 (1.0)
-Immobilize: 2sec
-Cast time: 1/2
-Cd: 15sec
-Number of targets: 5
-Shadowstep range: 600
-Energy cost: 15
-Combo Finisher: Blast

Unique ideas, neat synergy, overall pretty good.
Maybe tweak the cd’s a bit…but sadly it is way too late for major changes.
I doubt even tweaks will happen. Maybe in a year and onward.

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Posted by: narcx.3570

narcx.3570

We wanted a core ranged condi wep. Not something locked behind e-spec. And shortbow sux anyway, it has 0 defensive tools with 900 range. Wish they used my concept for rifle which i made over a year ago.

While having chill/torment/immob are infinitely better than what short bow brings, and it’s a neat idea how your rifle synergies play style with the Trident kit to a degree, it’s still nothing Rev’s need.

Literally EVERYTHING else you do in terms of DPS or Utility (except tablet shenanigans), you’re required to be in melee range. Which is exactly why the last thing we needed was a ranged condi-weapon… Nothing in our condi kit synergies with kiting your opponent, or ranged combat play, and if all you need are condi-pokes for dueling and fighting off harassment on point in sPvP you already have Mace 2/3, Axe 5, Elemental Blast, and Banish Enchantment spam.

I suppose it’d be useful in the current condi-spam-from-range-and epidemic zerg WvW meta, but Revs already excel to the point of being required in this game mode for Resistance botting.