Guild Wars 2

Revs have to learn to deal with condi’s without resistance or much cleanse, and it’s totally possible. Heralds heal essentially provides resistance if you use it to counter condi’s – you just take half the condi burst and then activate the heal to heal all of the first half up and take no more dmg. Shield 5 can even be used to counter condi burst if you start it preemptively. Sure, that isn’t reliable at the moment in case a cripple sneaks it’s way in there, but when the ability is fixed it will be a great way to prevent condi application. I played a Glint build (Glint/Shiro Dev/Ret/Her) with retribution as opposed to invocation or salvation like most people because I frankly don’t think that condi cleanse is worth it. Retribution gives better survivability and is extremely strong when facing a control heavy class (2 stacks of stab on dodge).

ZDragon.3046:

“As you said it punishes activation” you activate the attack with confusion on you (Totally your call on doing so) Its not like confusion can be applied to you during the skill sense you are evading so….. it must have been on you before activation….. then you take 7 hits of confusion.

So really its not defying how confusion works now is it?

Honestly, I can’t argue with that. I fully agree with this statement. With the evade on this skill, you are making a conscious choice to activate while you have confusion on you. Each hit = 1 hit of confusion, simple as that. Without the evade (such as BWE1) it is a completely different story, but with it, that is a counter for the skill (one of many despite what some will say).

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Much to your dismay, Revenant’s do need a weakness.

I do agree each class needs to have a counterplay. Don’t you think that it also doesn’t have to be he should be virtually helpless against it though. Conditions are no longer like they were when the game first launched, they are now more prevalent, easily reapplied (in matter of seconds). Especially in PvP when virtually every classes do condi now, it means that non-Mallyx will be weak against everyone. I do think condi removal on legend swap should be increased to one, each legend should have at least one way to remove condition, be it a weaker one than other classes.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

quaniesan.8497:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Much to your dismay, Revenant’s do need a weakness.

I do agree each class needs to have a counterplay. Don’t you think that it also doesn’t have to be he should be virtually helpless against it though. Conditions are no longer like they were when the game first launched, they are now more prevalent, easily reapplied (in matter of seconds). Especially in PvP when virtually every classes do condi now, it means that non-Mallyx will be weak against everyone. I do think condi removal on legend swap should be increased to one, each legend should have at least one way to remove condition, be it a weaker one than other classes.

I don’t think that is entirely true, as an example engineers don’t run much condition removal in PvP as they have limited options similar to revenant, but still aren’t helpless in PvP.

Well now you’re right in my wheel house Roy!

Most competitive Engi builds use Alchemy, which even if you change nothing about your skill bar can help tremendously (relative to baseline Engi). You get the 75% health Elixir B proc and clear. 25% health Elixir S proc and clear if you grab it. Transmute every 15s. This is without using any elixirs or Elixir Gun on your skill bar. A skill bar that already has one of the best heals in the game that removes 2 condis every 15-20s.

Engi is among the worst at dealing with conditions no matter how you gear, but they have a chance. My argument is unless using Mallyx + Corruption a Rev doesn’t really have that same chance, at least I don’t think so. I believe increasing the amount of conditions removed on the traits/skills that have that functionality would help a lot and I would like to see where that puts us in BWE3 before we start seriously asking for more sources of removal.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

quaniesan.8497:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Much to your dismay, Revenant’s do need a weakness.

I do agree each class needs to have a counterplay. Don’t you think that it also doesn’t have to be he should be virtually helpless against it though. Conditions are no longer like they were when the game first launched, they are now more prevalent, easily reapplied (in matter of seconds). Especially in PvP when virtually every classes do condi now, it means that non-Mallyx will be weak against everyone. I do think condi removal on legend swap should be increased to one, each legend should have at least one way to remove condition, be it a weaker one than other classes.

I don’t think that is entirely true, as an example engineers don’t run much condition removal in PvP as they have limited options similar to revenant, but still aren’t helpless in PvP.

Roy, I pretty much agree with your philosophy, however at the moment some classes have no weakness at all.
Is there going to be a rebalance or a nerf on some classes? Ele with IceBow+linecasting does so much damage that makes every other class useless (at least in pve), and has no real weakness (high damage, mobility, condi removal, survivability, and so on).

I don’t mind Rev having a huge weakness to something, but that should be true with every class. What is Ele’s weakness? And Mesmer’s? Guardian’s?

Roy Cronacher.1576:

quaniesan.8497:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Much to your dismay, Revenant’s do need a weakness.

I do agree each class needs to have a counterplay. Don’t you think that it also doesn’t have to be he should be virtually helpless against it though. Conditions are no longer like they were when the game first launched, they are now more prevalent, easily reapplied (in matter of seconds). Especially in PvP when virtually every classes do condi now, it means that non-Mallyx will be weak against everyone. I do think condi removal on legend swap should be increased to one, each legend should have at least one way to remove condition, be it a weaker one than other classes.

I don’t think that is entirely true, as an example engineers don’t run much condition removal in PvP as they have limited options similar to revenant, but still aren’t helpless in PvP.

Yeah I agree with this. But for those with more limited pvp experience..

The “meta” soldier’s engi builds have 2 condis cleansed on heal turret, and up to 5 with elixirs and transmute procs (not counting X, don’t waste it for a cleanse), and 3 of those elixir cleanses are on long cooldowns. You could even run less cleanse if you wanted to take toolkit for better defense against burst.

Revenant with invocation and Jalis has roughly the same ability to cleanse conditions, even more if staff is taken, and the upkeep skill that makes condis less effective. With glint, its even further as I’m pretty sure we can all consider Infuse Light to be a strong counter measure against conditions. If you consider infuse light to be a trump card against conditions, and really it is for those precious few seconds, then Jalis revenant build should be roughly equivalent to soldier’s engis in terms of cleansing. That build is desgined to feel more like a bruiser rather than a burster thats shown through shiro.

Most of the complaint comes from people that play shiro/glint. The evade on shiro cures movement impairing conditions instantly, and the whole playstyle is designed to enable a high risk, high reward gameplay. Shiro gives you the tools to avoid damage effectively and help evade through condition causing skills. People need to know their limits of what they can and can’t 1v1, especially since most condition builds in pvp are designed to only 1v1, but fail at teamfighting. Shiro revenant is overall stronger because you don’t have that limitation. Your damage in a teamfight isn’t nullified by a random guardian or warrior shouting every 4 seconds, or the ele rotationbot just doing its thing.

Think about what your build can handle, and what it can’t before you start to think its weak.

Also regarding Mallyx, its strong 1v1 against condition builds and it synergizes well with condition builds, and gives condition builds their best chance to damage in teamfights should the enemy have enough condi pressure. I’d say if you aren’t doing/playing one of those, Jalis is a more versatile option. Also Roy, I’m glad you’re addressing the friend cleanse problems when using Mallyx. Nothing made me sigh more this past beta then when I had built up resistance, started and started Embrace the Darkness, only to have my huge stack of burns erased through passive incidental support that was well intentioned. I think it also help me use mallyx more offensively in general, since I felt like I was too under the condition threshold for banish enchantment and unyielding anguish a lot of the times in teamfights compared to what I felt like I should be doing, so the condi pressure suffered as a result.

I don’t ask for anything crazy for condi control in Rev, just do think it needs to be tuned up just a notch. I’d be well settled with removing 2 condi with legend swap. Given how crazy condi are flying around these days, other classes have enough time window to down a Rev even if he can remove 2 condis upon legend switch. Keep in mind that, by forcing a Rev to switch from a desired legend just to remove condi, it also forcing him to give up whatever chess moves he planned ahead for the existing legend. So it’s more than just condi removal. I would love shiro to have a weak condi removal as well, but even that will probably not in the horizon, but I’d definitely want to push for 2 condi removal upon legend switch.

quaniesan.8497:

I don’t ask for anything crazy for condi control in Rev, just do think it needs to be tuned up just a notch. I’d be well settled with removing 2 condi with legend swap. Given how crazy condi are flying around these days, other classes have enough time window to down a Rev even if he can remove 2 condis upon legend switch. Keep in mind that, by forcing a Rev to switch from a desired legend just to remove condi, it also forcing him to give up whatever chess moves he planned ahead for the existing legend. So it’s more than just condi removal. I would love shiro to have a weak condi removal as well, but even that will probably not in the horizon, but I’d definitely want to push for 2 condi removal upon legend switch.

For the reasons you give I want 3, but I understand if we try 2 first. Changing your whole skill bar just to remove conditions I think pretty well justifies removing 3. Not to mention that could also be your stun breaker you just burned to remove that stack of burning that is already reapplied.

quaniesan.8497:

I don’t ask for anything crazy for condi control in Rev, just do think it needs to be tuned up just a notch. I’d be well settled with removing 2 condi with legend swap. Given how crazy condi are flying around these days, other classes have enough time window to down a Rev even if he can remove 2 condis upon legend switch. Keep in mind that, by forcing a Rev to switch from a desired legend just to remove condi, it also forcing him to give up whatever chess moves he planned ahead for the existing legend. So it’s more than just condi removal. I would love shiro to have a weak condi removal as well, but even that will probably not in the horizon, but I’d definitely want to push for 2 condi removal upon legend switch.

At this point, Rev is really strong. If they buff in one area, they will need to nerf in another. So, let’s say condi removal is buffed. What should be nerfed?

The class needs to be balanced. So many people are trying to take it to dd ele level. Pretty much everyone knows that needs to be nerfed hard.

Adamantium.3682:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

quaniesan.8497:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Much to your dismay, Revenant’s do need a weakness.

I do agree each class needs to have a counterplay. Don’t you think that it also doesn’t have to be he should be virtually helpless against it though. Conditions are no longer like they were when the game first launched, they are now more prevalent, easily reapplied (in matter of seconds). Especially in PvP when virtually every classes do condi now, it means that non-Mallyx will be weak against everyone. I do think condi removal on legend swap should be increased to one, each legend should have at least one way to remove condition, be it a weaker one than other classes.

I don’t think that is entirely true, as an example engineers don’t run much condition removal in PvP as they have limited options similar to revenant, but still aren’t helpless in PvP.

Well now you’re right in my wheel house Roy!

Most competitive Engi builds use Alchemy, which even if you change nothing about your skill bar can help tremendously (relative to baseline Engi). You get the 75% health Elixir B proc and clear. 25% health Elixir S proc and clear if you grab it. Transmute every 15s. This is without using any elixirs or Elixir Gun on your skill bar. A skill bar that already has one of the best heals in the game that removes 2 condis every 15-20s.

Engi is among the worst at dealing with conditions no matter how you gear, but they have a chance. My argument is unless using Mallyx + Corruption a Rev doesn’t really have that same chance, at least I don’t think so. I believe increasing the amount of conditions removed on the traits/skills that have that functionality would help a lot and I would like to see where that puts us in BWE3 before we start seriously asking for more sources of removal.

Healing turret overcharge Cleansing Burst is on a what second cooldown again? How does that compare to Revenant heals? Engineers weakness is not condition cleanse, it’s stability boon. Engineers have a CC/block build for meta PvP. It’s apples-and-oranges.

Engin Meta Link

Adamantium.3682:

Most competitive Engi builds use Alchemy

So if you want to play competitive PvP, you must use Alchemy as an engineer.
If you want to play competitive PvP, you must use Mallyx as a Rev.

Again, isn’t it fair ?

I’m actuall totally ok with him being vulnurable to conditions.
I’ve played the revenant extensively this last BWE and I have encountered some Condition based enemies aswell, though I wouldn’t say I was helpless – not if they really tried to get those 9 stacks of burning on me , which is kitten any class. I wasn’t using Mallyx either.

Markus.9084:

Adamantium.3682:

Most competitive Engi builds use Alchemy

So if you want to play competitive PvP, you must use Alchemy as an engineer.
If you want to play competitive PvP, you must use Mallyx as a Rev.

Again, isn’t it fair ?

The comparison isn’t that cut and dry. Mallyx with a power build is pointless since you just get the resistance and some icidental boonrip but no other real form of damage or sustain. Corruption is in a similar boat, however it doesn’t due anything on its own to truly help with condis without mallyx compared to invocation.

If you run some combination of invocation, jalis, generosity sigils, lyssa runes, staff, glint, you’ll have enough sustain against conditions to get by. You only need to run 2 or 3 of those things to feel it.

And lets not forget, the way revenant traits work make valkyrie builds an actually viable choice due to rolling mists, so you can have a build that can hit as hard as a standard zerker that has much more health to endure damaging conditions, while shiro makes debilitating movement impairing conditions a non-issue. Alternatively you can take Jalis over shiro to handle it better, while being more of a defensive brawler.

Alchemy is also different than mallyx/corruption because it offers a ton of passive defensive things to Engineer, including protection injection, self-regulation defenses or backpack regeneration, as well as elixir might-stacking. It could be argued that traits like prot injection/selfreg make alchemy a traitline about surviving burst just as much as one about surviving conditions, as well as going offensively with HGH. Mallyx is about using the enemies condition output against themself in a much more brawler-oriented style than say a signet or corruption necromancer. Meanwhile retribution mimics alchemy much more than corruption of mallyx do. One of the retribution traits is literally the same thing as protection injection! Its just different in that it emphasizes dodging and being a bruiser more than alchemy, which is more about enduring coordinated bursts in its most effective format.

They’re not as comparable as you think.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

quaniesan.8497:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Much to your dismay, Revenant’s do need a weakness.

I do agree each class needs to have a counterplay. Don’t you think that it also doesn’t have to be he should be virtually helpless against it though. Conditions are no longer like they were when the game first launched, they are now more prevalent, easily reapplied (in matter of seconds). Especially in PvP when virtually every classes do condi now, it means that non-Mallyx will be weak against everyone. I do think condi removal on legend swap should be increased to one, each legend should have at least one way to remove condition, be it a weaker one than other classes.

I don’t think that is entirely true, as an example engineers don’t run much condition removal in PvP as they have limited options similar to revenant, but still aren’t helpless in PvP.

Omg Roy is this means that you’re aware that exist a class called Engineer in this game??? yeeeeee!!!! )

ZDragon.3046:

Black Box.9312:

ZDragon.3046:

posthumecaver.6473:

The trick is normally I don’t feel that weak against conditions, if you take retribution while you have to keep that stability up, you have to dodge alot and condi classes have really hard time placing condi bomb on me. They only manage it during the Crystal Hybernation mainly or Staff 4.

What disturbs me is how effective confusion is on Shiro and Staff because of multi hits but people claim that is because of bug, for ex sword 3 should proc one confusion active damage but it is procing 7 times now, if this is true then Ok then I don’t have too much to complain.

But if the multi hits from Staff and Sword will suffer from confusion then yeah I demand something that reduce that effect otherwise my Revenant will make Harakiri lots of times.

Most confusion condition applications dont last very long. Have you tried simply not attacking and waiting for the stacks to fall off? The three is now an evade which means you can go zipping around without having to worry about aoe damage. I think its prefectly fair to proc 7 times for each attempted strike if you chose to use the skill with confusion on you. Just as how the skill grants might for every time you hit not all 7 might stacks on use. Its fine as it is just don’t go zipping into the fight with confusion on you. If your using shiro then you should be playing like a thief not a warrior.

That defies the entire design of confusion though. Confusion punishes skill activation, whereas retaliation punishes hitting your enemy. Confusion is already much more powerful than retaliation, so there’s really no need for it to be encroaching on retal’s territory.

Its possibly because of the fact that the skill mechanic attempts builds might for every strike thus its possibly counted as using a skill. Retaliation is honestly too weak and its hardly noticeable anyways. Are you suggesting changes be mad to retaliation to yield the same result? Either way right now its a good counter play to a near 2 seconds of evades with good damage. The start up cannot be evaded or blocked making at least a few of your attacks promised to hit if in range. The only way to avoid being hit is to block with some skills not every profession has or burn 2 evades. The skill is very hard to counter right now and for that reason it should stay as it is.
“As you said it punishes activation” you activate the attack with confusion on you (Totally your call on doing so) Its not like confusion can be applied to you during the skill sense you are evading so….. it must have been on you before activation….. then you take 7 hits of confusion.

So really its not defying how confusion works now is it?

No, it’s still defying the mechanics behind confusion because you’re only activating ONE skill. Skills such as Hundred Blades, Whirling Wrath, and Blurred Frenzy are all multi-hit attacks, but they only proc one damage instance of confusion each. This is how it should be.

The proper counterplay you are looking for is with retaliation, not confusion. Retaliation punishes on hit, and confusion punishes on skill activation. Sure, retaliation could use a buff, but changing confusion to do its job instead is not the proper way to go about such a thing.

I liked where Revenant is at… Only people I was unable to beat was a chronomancer and a kiting Ranger. Which I went 50/50 with the Ranger, the Chrono vs Rev fight never ended

nearlight.3064:

Markus.9084:

Adamantium.3682:

Most competitive Engi builds use Alchemy

So if you want to play competitive PvP, you must use Alchemy as an engineer.
If you want to play competitive PvP, you must use Mallyx as a Rev.

Again, isn’t it fair ?

The comparison isn’t that cut and dry. Mallyx with a power build is pointless since you just get the resistance and some icidental boonrip but no other real form of damage or sustain. Corruption is in a similar boat, however it doesn’t due anything on its own to truly help with condis without mallyx compared to invocation.

If you run some combination of invocation, jalis, generosity sigils, lyssa runes, staff, glint, you’ll have enough sustain against conditions to get by. You only need to run 2 or 3 of those things to feel it.

And lets not forget, the way revenant traits work make valkyrie builds an actually viable choice due to rolling mists, so you can have a build that can hit as hard as a standard zerker that has much more health to endure damaging conditions, while shiro makes debilitating movement impairing conditions a non-issue. Alternatively you can take Jalis over shiro to handle it better, while being more of a defensive brawler.

Alchemy is also different than mallyx/corruption because it offers a ton of passive defensive things to Engineer, including protection injection, self-regulation defenses or backpack regeneration, as well as elixir might-stacking. It could be argued that traits like prot injection/selfreg make alchemy a traitline about surviving burst just as much as one about surviving conditions, as well as going offensively with HGH. Mallyx is about using the enemies condition output against themself in a much more brawler-oriented style than say a signet or corruption necromancer. Meanwhile retribution mimics alchemy much more than corruption of mallyx do. One of the retribution traits is literally the same thing as protection injection! Its just different in that it emphasizes dodging and being a bruiser more than alchemy, which is more about enduring coordinated bursts in its most effective format.

They’re not as comparable as you think.

Thank you for this, it is what I would have said if I was the first to respond but you said it much better than I could have.

Summary for me: Alchemy is a trait line, Mallyx+Corruption is a build. An Engineer can supplement their build with Alchemy, a very good all around trait line especially for PvP. A Revenant cannot supplement their build with Mallyx+Corruption (I may be wrong once we all get more time and theorycrafting with the Rev, but it sure looks this way now), that basically becomes their build.

Artaz.3819:

Adamantium.3682:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

quaniesan.8497:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Much to your dismay, Revenant’s do need a weakness.

I do agree each class needs to have a counterplay. Don’t you think that it also doesn’t have to be he should be virtually helpless against it though. Conditions are no longer like they were when the game first launched, they are now more prevalent, easily reapplied (in matter of seconds). Especially in PvP when virtually every classes do condi now, it means that non-Mallyx will be weak against everyone. I do think condi removal on legend swap should be increased to one, each legend should have at least one way to remove condition, be it a weaker one than other classes.

I don’t think that is entirely true, as an example engineers don’t run much condition removal in PvP as they have limited options similar to revenant, but still aren’t helpless in PvP.

Well now you’re right in my wheel house Roy!

Most competitive Engi builds use Alchemy, which even if you change nothing about your skill bar can help tremendously (relative to baseline Engi). You get the 75% health Elixir B proc and clear. 25% health Elixir S proc and clear if you grab it. Transmute every 15s. This is without using any elixirs or Elixir Gun on your skill bar. A skill bar that already has one of the best heals in the game that removes 2 condis every 15-20s.

Engi is among the worst at dealing with conditions no matter how you gear, but they have a chance. My argument is unless using Mallyx + Corruption a Rev doesn’t really have that same chance, at least I don’t think so. I believe increasing the amount of conditions removed on the traits/skills that have that functionality would help a lot and I would like to see where that puts us in BWE3 before we start seriously asking for more sources of removal.

Healing turret overcharge Cleansing Burst is on a what second cooldown again? How does that compare to Revenant heals? Engineers weakness is not condition cleanse, it’s stability boon. Engineers have a CC/block build for meta PvP. It’s apples-and-oranges.

Engin Meta Link

I can assure you the Engineer’s chief weakness is incoming condition damage.

They are also not so great at providing stability, but have decent enough stun break and blocks/invuln to get by and protect from the stun+spike combos without stability.

In any event, this is not the Engineer forum it was merely a comparison. If incoming conditions is to be the Revenant’s weakness it makes sense to me to compare to another profession who shares that weakness. One of those is the Engineer, who by comparison is much better off than the Revenant (and still far on the weak end of the spectrum).

As an engineer here I always make sure to have condi clear on my build through sigils (generosity/purity) and meladru or lyssa runes.
These can really save the day and you will deel much more secure

Don’t forget guys that, even with no conditions removal revenant was pretty strong this week end. Reaper was better but revenant come latter. So don’t buff the class to much. I’m personnaly fine with this weakness i haven’t really hard time, only with stack of burnings but that’s the same for everyone. As a mesmer player and engineer i play with this weakness too and i find you can pretty deal with it.
Really be happy with what you have. Revenant was in really good spot, don’t ask for change him too much.

Adamantium.3682:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

quaniesan.8497:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Much to your dismay, Revenant’s do need a weakness.

I do agree each class needs to have a counterplay. Don’t you think that it also doesn’t have to be he should be virtually helpless against it though. Conditions are no longer like they were when the game first launched, they are now more prevalent, easily reapplied (in matter of seconds). Especially in PvP when virtually every classes do condi now, it means that non-Mallyx will be weak against everyone. I do think condi removal on legend swap should be increased to one, each legend should have at least one way to remove condition, be it a weaker one than other classes.

I don’t think that is entirely true, as an example engineers don’t run much condition removal in PvP as they have limited options similar to revenant, but still aren’t helpless in PvP.

Well now you’re right in my wheel house Roy!

Most competitive Engi builds use Alchemy, which even if you change nothing about your skill bar can help tremendously (relative to baseline Engi). You get the 75% health Elixir B proc and clear. 25% health Elixir S proc and clear if you grab it. Transmute every 15s. This is without using any elixirs or Elixir Gun on your skill bar. A skill bar that already has one of the best heals in the game that removes 2 condis every 15-20s.

Engi is among the worst at dealing with conditions no matter how you gear, but they have a chance. My argument is unless using Mallyx + Corruption a Rev doesn’t really have that same chance, at least I don’t think so. I believe increasing the amount of conditions removed on the traits/skills that have that functionality would help a lot and I would like to see where that puts us in BWE3 before we start seriously asking for more sources of removal.

Well actually you sorta proved that engi, to condi clense has to spec in alchemy (which is true) and Rev to deal with condis has to spec to mallyx.
So, where’s the problem? Rev can deal with condis, is up to you to build for it or not.
I mean you are asking to have MULTIPLE way to deal with condis, well that’s not fair imho.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

quaniesan.8497:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Much to your dismay, Revenant’s do need a weakness.

I do agree each class needs to have a counterplay. Don’t you think that it also doesn’t have to be he should be virtually helpless against it though. Conditions are no longer like they were when the game first launched, they are now more prevalent, easily reapplied (in matter of seconds). Especially in PvP when virtually every classes do condi now, it means that non-Mallyx will be weak against everyone. I do think condi removal on legend swap should be increased to one, each legend should have at least one way to remove condition, be it a weaker one than other classes.

I don’t think that is entirely true, as an example engineers don’t run much condition removal in PvP as they have limited options similar to revenant, but still aren’t helpless in PvP.

You are right Engi doesn’t have much condi remove BUT they have tons of cc, imob, block, invuln and can fight ranged. The problem here is rev is normaly in meele (if you don’t run hammer and even with hammer rev cant really kite due to lack of fast cc’s and imobs). You think well it’s working with engi and mesmer but both these classes have a main thing that rev don’t offers kite.
I don’t say rev needs ton of condi remove but he need a bit more and better ones then he has now.

Gaaroth.2567:

Well actually you sorta proved that engi, to condi clense has to spec in alchemy (which is true) and Rev to deal with condis has to spec to mallyx.
So, where’s the problem? Rev can deal with condis, is up to you to build for it or not.
I mean you are asking to have MULTIPLE way to deal with condis, well that’s not fair imho.

Yes that’s true but rev has to trait mallix and then use the legend too thats 50% of his utility skills and I don’t think anybody wants that 50% of his stuff is always the same because you HAVE TO take mallix.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

quaniesan.8497:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Much to your dismay, Revenant’s do need a weakness.

I do agree each class needs to have a counterplay. Don’t you think that it also doesn’t have to be he should be virtually helpless against it though. Conditions are no longer like they were when the game first launched, they are now more prevalent, easily reapplied (in matter of seconds). Especially in PvP when virtually every classes do condi now, it means that non-Mallyx will be weak against everyone. I do think condi removal on legend swap should be increased to one, each legend should have at least one way to remove condition, be it a weaker one than other classes.

I don’t think that is entirely true, as an example engineers don’t run much condition removal in PvP as they have limited options similar to revenant, but still aren’t helpless in PvP.

At least can you tell us Sword 3 proc the confusion damage 7 times is a bug or intended?

Roy Cronacher.1576:

quaniesan.8497:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Much to your dismay, Revenant’s do need a weakness.

I do agree each class needs to have a counterplay. Don’t you think that it also doesn’t have to be he should be virtually helpless against it though. Conditions are no longer like they were when the game first launched, they are now more prevalent, easily reapplied (in matter of seconds). Especially in PvP when virtually every classes do condi now, it means that non-Mallyx will be weak against everyone. I do think condi removal on legend swap should be increased to one, each legend should have at least one way to remove condition, be it a weaker one than other classes.

I don’t think that is entirely true, as an example engineers don’t run much condition removal in PvP as they have limited options similar to revenant, but still aren’t helpless in PvP.

You had already an answer from other users, an engi meta build right now has a really better condi removal than Revenant without Mallyx.

Btw i think if you improved Cleansing Channel with an additional condi i think it would be sufficient to deal with a moderate condi pressure in a decent way.

For high condi pressure i’m ok we need to use Mallyx.

In general adding a break stun on Mallyx wouldn’t be bad, utility have already an high cost.

Gaaroth.2567:

Adamantium.3682:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

quaniesan.8497:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Much to your dismay, Revenant’s do need a weakness.

I do agree each class needs to have a counterplay. Don’t you think that it also doesn’t have to be he should be virtually helpless against it though. Conditions are no longer like they were when the game first launched, they are now more prevalent, easily reapplied (in matter of seconds). Especially in PvP when virtually every classes do condi now, it means that non-Mallyx will be weak against everyone. I do think condi removal on legend swap should be increased to one, each legend should have at least one way to remove condition, be it a weaker one than other classes.

I don’t think that is entirely true, as an example engineers don’t run much condition removal in PvP as they have limited options similar to revenant, but still aren’t helpless in PvP.

Well now you’re right in my wheel house Roy!

Most competitive Engi builds use Alchemy, which even if you change nothing about your skill bar can help tremendously (relative to baseline Engi). You get the 75% health Elixir B proc and clear. 25% health Elixir S proc and clear if you grab it. Transmute every 15s. This is without using any elixirs or Elixir Gun on your skill bar. A skill bar that already has one of the best heals in the game that removes 2 condis every 15-20s.

Engi is among the worst at dealing with conditions no matter how you gear, but they have a chance. My argument is unless using Mallyx + Corruption a Rev doesn’t really have that same chance, at least I don’t think so. I believe increasing the amount of conditions removed on the traits/skills that have that functionality would help a lot and I would like to see where that puts us in BWE3 before we start seriously asking for more sources of removal.

Well actually you sorta proved that engi, to condi clense has to spec in alchemy (which is true) and Rev to deal with condis has to spec to mallyx.
So, where’s the problem? Rev can deal with condis, is up to you to build for it or not.
I mean you are asking to have MULTIPLE way to deal with condis, well that’s not fair imho.

This is what I said a few posts below that to provide context:

Adamantium.3682:

…

Summary for me: Alchemy is a trait line, Mallyx+Corruption is a build. An Engineer can supplement their build with Alchemy, a very good all around trait line especially for PvP. A Revenant cannot supplement their build with Mallyx+Corruption (I may be wrong once we all get more time and theorycrafting with the Rev, but it sure looks this way now), that basically becomes their build.

For Mallyx+Corruption to be of any help against condis it has to be your build and you have to be in Mallyx most of the time to take advantage of the resistance (since it doesn’t actually remove anything). I really don’t see this as being analogous to Alchemy at all, where you can only use that trait line and change nothing else about your build or play style and still get the benefits of extra help against conditions.

I’ll use that word again “flexibility”. The Revenant doesn’t have it and this is an example of how it hurts them. There is very minimal opportunities to supplement your build in Revenant, so many things are all or nothing. You cannot simply trade out a skill to help with conditions, heck it’s tough to even use just a trait line like Alchemy because everything is tied together so tightly. To use Corruption, you must use Mallyx. Well if you’re using Mallyx you really have to camp it most of the time. If you’re camping Mallyx you really should have condi weapons, and down the rabbit hole we go… It defines your build unlike any other profession.

I don’t get the problem. Not using Mallyx, is like a Mesmer not using condicleanse (Which is decently common). Or any other class in the game for that matter. Mallyx gives you your utility skills. It’s just like picking a utility condicleanse on any other class. Beside, Mallyx’s heal is insane if you get a lot of condis on you. Having like ~8 condis with resistance on you is like 13k heal. And unless the opponent is running boon-stripping, they can’t destroy you with condis. So it’s a very fair and powerful way of them dealing with condis.

Kikidori.5916:

I don’t get the problem. Not using Mallyx, is like a Mesmer not using condicleanse (Which is decently common). Or any other class in the game for that matter. Mallyx gives you your utility skills. It’s just like picking a utility condicleanse on any other class. Beside, Mallyx’s heal is insane if you get a lot of condis on you. Having like ~8 condis with resistance on you is like 13k heal. And unless the opponent is running boon-stripping, they can’t destroy you with condis. So it’s a very fair and powerful way of them dealing with condis.

The only thing is mesmer doesn’t need condi cleanse because he can simply kite and control the enemy which the rev can’t really offer. He don’t has all those nice mesmer things such as invuln, stealth, hard cc, reflect, teleport, immobs, ca. 16k instant bursts. Memser is build to don’t get harmful condis in the first place that’s why he can deal with most condi builds.

Rev has some nice things too (infuse light, more evades and block) but other then the mesmer or the engi are most of revs in meele where get way more conditions on you because the enemy can put harmful fields on themselfs and thats only in 1v1.
If you look at teamfights it’s even worse. As a meele class you are going to get a lot of condis all the time and that’s what kills the revs in most cases.

Mesmers have many utility skills that clear conditions and they can simply slot them into any build. Not a big deal.
Revenant however has to give up 5 skills to just equip Jalis heal.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

quaniesan.8497:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Much to your dismay, Revenant’s do need a weakness.

I do agree each class needs to have a counterplay. Don’t you think that it also doesn’t have to be he should be virtually helpless against it though. Conditions are no longer like they were when the game first launched, they are now more prevalent, easily reapplied (in matter of seconds). Especially in PvP when virtually every classes do condi now, it means that non-Mallyx will be weak against everyone. I do think condi removal on legend swap should be increased to one, each legend should have at least one way to remove condition, be it a weaker one than other classes.

I don’t think that is entirely true, as an example engineers don’t run much condition removal in PvP as they have limited options similar to revenant, but still aren’t helpless in PvP.

It’s too bad that in WvW food adds that extra kick that makes the weak scepter attacks on necro strong enough to easily kill a non mallyx revenant. Glint did make one of my Revenant fights last longer, but it was still too easy. I like having the idea of getting an upperhand against certain foes because of their weaknesses, but the condi weakness on revenant is somewhat exaggerated to the point where it takes minimal effort to dispatch them in WvW with the powerful food buffs. Also, I’d just like to point out that since I’m speaking from the point of view of a condition necromancer here, engis have the ability to stop us with stuns and get away from us, which are our weaknesses, and they still have a very hard time and are considered our easiest kill, especially when we can use food.
I suggest a grandmaster trait that removes three condis on legend swap. So that would be upgrading cleansing channel. This would give all revenants the ability to take some very basic condition cleanse that works but still leaves them fairly weak to conditions.

Adamantium.3682:

Gaaroth.2567:

Adamantium.3682:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

quaniesan.8497:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Much to your dismay, Revenant’s do need a weakness.

I do agree each class needs to have a counterplay. Don’t you think that it also doesn’t have to be he should be virtually helpless against it though. Conditions are no longer like they were when the game first launched, they are now more prevalent, easily reapplied (in matter of seconds). Especially in PvP when virtually every classes do condi now, it means that non-Mallyx will be weak against everyone. I do think condi removal on legend swap should be increased to one, each legend should have at least one way to remove condition, be it a weaker one than other classes.

I don’t think that is entirely true, as an example engineers don’t run much condition removal in PvP as they have limited options similar to revenant, but still aren’t helpless in PvP.

Well now you’re right in my wheel house Roy!

Most competitive Engi builds use Alchemy, which even if you change nothing about your skill bar can help tremendously (relative to baseline Engi). You get the 75% health Elixir B proc and clear. 25% health Elixir S proc and clear if you grab it. Transmute every 15s. This is without using any elixirs or Elixir Gun on your skill bar. A skill bar that already has one of the best heals in the game that removes 2 condis every 15-20s.

Engi is among the worst at dealing with conditions no matter how you gear, but they have a chance. My argument is unless using Mallyx + Corruption a Rev doesn’t really have that same chance, at least I don’t think so. I believe increasing the amount of conditions removed on the traits/skills that have that functionality would help a lot and I would like to see where that puts us in BWE3 before we start seriously asking for more sources of removal.

Well actually you sorta proved that engi, to condi clense has to spec in alchemy (which is true) and Rev to deal with condis has to spec to mallyx.
So, where’s the problem? Rev can deal with condis, is up to you to build for it or not.
I mean you are asking to have MULTIPLE way to deal with condis, well that’s not fair imho.

This is what I said a few posts below that to provide context:

Adamantium.3682:

…

Summary for me: Alchemy is a trait line, Mallyx+Corruption is a build. An Engineer can supplement their build with Alchemy, a very good all around trait line especially for PvP. A Revenant cannot supplement their build with Mallyx+Corruption (I may be wrong once we all get more time and theorycrafting with the Rev, but it sure looks this way now), that basically becomes their build.

For Mallyx+Corruption to be of any help against condis it has to be your build and you have to be in Mallyx most of the time to take advantage of the resistance (since it doesn’t actually remove anything). I really don’t see this as being analogous to Alchemy at all, where you can only use that trait line and change nothing else about your build or play style and still get the benefits of extra help against conditions.

I’ll use that word again “flexibility”. The Revenant doesn’t have it and this is an example of how it hurts them. There is very minimal opportunities to supplement your build in Revenant, so many things are all or nothing. You cannot simply trade out a skill to help with conditions, heck it’s tough to even use just a trait line like Alchemy because everything is tied together so tightly. To use Corruption, you must use Mallyx. Well if you’re using Mallyx you really have to camp it most of the time. If you’re camping Mallyx you really should have condi weapons, and down the rabbit hole we go… It defines your build unlike any other profession.

I sorta agree that is build defining..and I don’t know how to feel about that: on a side it sorta sucks but on the other i like the fact that with Rev your build has “personality” and is really defined, not blurred… i have to think a bit more on that

Valfaros.6908:

Kikidori.5916:

I don’t get the problem. Not using Mallyx, is like a Mesmer not using condicleanse (Which is decently common). Or any other class in the game for that matter. Mallyx gives you your utility skills. It’s just like picking a utility condicleanse on any other class. Beside, Mallyx’s heal is insane if you get a lot of condis on you. Having like ~8 condis with resistance on you is like 13k heal. And unless the opponent is running boon-stripping, they can’t destroy you with condis. So it’s a very fair and powerful way of them dealing with condis.

The only thing is mesmer doesn’t need condi cleanse because he can simply kite and control the enemy which the rev can’t really offer. He don’t has all those nice mesmer things such as invuln, stealth, hard cc, reflect, teleport, immobs, ca. 16k instant bursts. Memser is build to don’t get harmful condis in the first place that’s why he can deal with most condi builds.

Rev has some nice things too (infuse light, more evades and block) but other then the mesmer or the engi are most of revs in meele where get way more conditions on you because the enemy can put harmful fields on themselfs and thats only in 1v1.
If you look at teamfights it’s even worse. As a meele class you are going to get a lot of condis all the time and that’s what kills the revs in most cases.

The biggest difference between a Rev and any other class. Is that some classes are able to avoid it completely, Warrior, Mesmer, Engineer, thief & Guardian. Some are able to spam condiremoval or have great access to it Ele & Necro. While Rev is unique in the way they render them completely in effective.

Since Roy wanted to give Rev a weakness but not a crippling weakness, he dealt with it by giving them few options to condi removal. I still think they Staff 4 should be used while moving as they fixed the Necro’s GS4 to be able to move as that would be very fair imo. So if he do indeed fix that as he did mention in another thread that there were some fixes to animatons and stuff like that. So I think one of the major complaints that people have had is Staff 4 being almost useless as it locks you in the animation. And since Roy have indeed been listening and adjusted the Rev a lot to be as awesome as possible. Anyways, the solution he made to giving Rev a weakness that isn’t a crippling weakness is giving him LOADS of access to resistance. I think you can even have permanent resistance(If it doesn’t boonstrip) and while some people complain that would cripple the tPvP aspect of Rev. Well, most of the time there is only 1 great build for each class in tPvP. And that would probably require using Malyix. But that’s the same as complaining that Ele requires Evasive Arcana or Necro requiring Soul Reaping for almost all their builds. But what I do would like to see is something along the lines of If you use a Legendary Stance that’s not the intended Stance for the boons, you get half of the power. Like 2 might on Shiro’s Utility skills would be 1 might on utility skills. 2 seconds of Resistance on Utility skill, should be 1 second of resistance on utility skill and so on. Beside Maylx still have a spammable boonstrip. So there is that.

Sorry for the wall of text. Some of it is just rambling so you can ignore it if you just want to see my conclusion.

tl;dr, Fix staff 4 animation. Rev’s solution to condis should still be resistance, make all the Legendary-Traits “Utility-Gives-Boon” have half effectiveness on the wrong stance to make it still useful.

It’s right that some classes need to skill a specific traitline in order to keep condis off them. I woundn’t complain about doing that but you also need to take mallix. That means you have 1 mandatory traitline and 50% of your utility (what should be the strengh of rev) is also mandatory.

That’s just …..

Cecilia.5179:

Adamantium.3682:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Much to your dismay, Revenant’s do need a weakness.

As over 80% of my 3000+ hours in game has been on an Engi, I certainly agree with and appreciate this fact. I only hope the Revenant is weak to conditions (outside Mallyx) and not automatically defeated by them.

Thanks!

Exactly. I don’t mind the Revenant struggling against condition builds, but as it is, they just straight up lose when they see more than three condis outside of Mallyx.

Its what mallyx is for. Giving more condi removal or resistance in other places devalues mallyx making it less likely to be used. If you dont want to be weak to conditions then use mallyx its actually a really good stand with great tools.

Black Box.9312:

ZDragon.3046:

Black Box.9312:

ZDragon.3046:

posthumecaver.6473:

The trick is normally I don’t feel that weak against conditions, if you take retribution while you have to keep that stability up, you have to dodge alot and condi classes have really hard time placing condi bomb on me. They only manage it during the Crystal Hybernation mainly or Staff 4.

What disturbs me is how effective confusion is on Shiro and Staff because of multi hits but people claim that is because of bug, for ex sword 3 should proc one confusion active damage but it is procing 7 times now, if this is true then Ok then I don’t have too much to complain.

But if the multi hits from Staff and Sword will suffer from confusion then yeah I demand something that reduce that effect otherwise my Revenant will make Harakiri lots of times.

Most confusion condition applications dont last very long. Have you tried simply not attacking and waiting for the stacks to fall off? The three is now an evade which means you can go zipping around without having to worry about aoe damage. I think its prefectly fair to proc 7 times for each attempted strike if you chose to use the skill with confusion on you. Just as how the skill grants might for every time you hit not all 7 might stacks on use. Its fine as it is just don’t go zipping into the fight with confusion on you. If your using shiro then you should be playing like a thief not a warrior.

That defies the entire design of confusion though. Confusion punishes skill activation, whereas retaliation punishes hitting your enemy. Confusion is already much more powerful than retaliation, so there’s really no need for it to be encroaching on retal’s territory.

Its possibly because of the fact that the skill mechanic attempts builds might for every strike thus its possibly counted as using a skill. Retaliation is honestly too weak and its hardly noticeable anyways. Are you suggesting changes be mad to retaliation to yield the same result? Either way right now its a good counter play to a near 2 seconds of evades with good damage. The start up cannot be evaded or blocked making at least a few of your attacks promised to hit if in range. The only way to avoid being hit is to block with some skills not every profession has or burn 2 evades. The skill is very hard to counter right now and for that reason it should stay as it is.
“As you said it punishes activation” you activate the attack with confusion on you (Totally your call on doing so) Its not like confusion can be applied to you during the skill sense you are evading so….. it must have been on you before activation….. then you take 7 hits of confusion.

So really its not defying how confusion works now is it?

No, it’s still defying the mechanics behind confusion because you’re only activating ONE skill. Skills such as Hundred Blades, Whirling Wrath, and Blurred Frenzy are all multi-hit attacks, but they only proc one damage instance of confusion each. This is how it should be.

The proper counterplay you are looking for is with retaliation, not confusion. Retaliation punishes on hit, and confusion punishes on skill activation. Sure, retaliation could use a buff, but changing confusion to do its job instead is not the proper way to go about such a thing.

Those attacks do not evade while you do them. There needs to be a punishable counter to that skill. If it was not evading for nearly 2 full seconds, I could see your reason behind this. But as long as that attack is an evade I simply see the confusion as a counter to its activation.

IF they changed retaliation to actually be more punishing on hitting an enemy with it on I would then fully see your point with this skill. But when you have an attack that cant be countered with anything other than being out of range or condition damage well.. yeah. If you could evade the startup which would cause the attack to fail then I would also be fine with that.

Kidel.2057:

Mesmers have many utility skills that clear conditions and they can simply slot them into any build. Not a big deal.
Revenant however has to give up 5 skills to just equip Jalis heal.

Revenant is very good at doing multiple jobs from other professions in one build that other professions cannot do without changing their whole builds. For example, Revenant can face assassinate like a thief or deal big blows from range like a ranger all in the same build. This is all in one build without even considering stances and traits. I do not agree with the argument of being able to swap one slot and it making a massive difference. If you want to have that potential then play one of the other professions. Right now I feel like revenant is nearly where it needs to be. Everything that everyone is suggesting is trying to devalue one of the other trait lines or stances.

No one seems to want to use mallyx when facing condition and wants more condition removal or resistance to be added in other places that dont make sense to have them. This profession was themed around how it was built and doing the things many people are suggesting would blow the theme of revy right out of the water. Its almost like everyone wants it to be a lackluster profession as simple as guardian or warrior. Finally we can see something very different with a different playstyle come into the game and before its even released people want changes that devalue what it stands for and how i was planned to be played.

I suggest people experiment with revy more as i feel like most never left anything other than shiro and glint. I saw very few mallyx users and even less ventari users. Shrio to me is too plain and rather boring. I like his weapon set but his utility screams boring. Its good for catching people who try to run which is what he is intended to do but other than that nothing a thief cant already do.

Valfaros.6908:

It’s right that some classes need to skill a specific traitline in order to keep condis off them. I woundn’t complain about doing that but you also need to take mallix. That means you have 1 mandatory traitline and 50% of your utility (what should be the strengh of rev) is also mandatory.

That’s just …..

Considering you get 2x as many utilities in combat as any other profession anyway i dont get why anyone should really be bishing about that. People are being to greedy at this point and just want a all in one package with revy just using glint and shrio. Hints why they are only asking for condition removal now.

I just hope the Devs dont give into this crying and start devaluing mallyx because of it.

oh 50% of my utility is gone if i use mallyx…. umm if i had 2x as many slots on my necro or my warrior Revy would not stand a chance lol. People should be glad that its the only profession that gives you access to 2x as many utilities in combat with their own cooldowns and cost separate from each other. ITs a major strength to revy. Glad im not the only one who sees this >.>

Adamantium.3682:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

quaniesan.8497:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Much to your dismay, Revenant’s do need a weakness.

I do agree each class needs to have a counterplay. Don’t you think that it also doesn’t have to be he should be virtually helpless against it though. Conditions are no longer like they were when the game first launched, they are now more prevalent, easily reapplied (in matter of seconds). Especially in PvP when virtually every classes do condi now, it means that non-Mallyx will be weak against everyone. I do think condi removal on legend swap should be increased to one, each legend should have at least one way to remove condition, be it a weaker one than other classes.

I don’t think that is entirely true, as an example engineers don’t run much condition removal in PvP as they have limited options similar to revenant, but still aren’t helpless in PvP.

Well now you’re right in my wheel house Roy!

Most competitive Engi builds use Alchemy, which even if you change nothing about your skill bar can help tremendously (relative to baseline Engi). You get the 75% health Elixir B proc and clear. 25% health Elixir S proc and clear if you grab it. Transmute every 15s. This is without using any elixirs or Elixir Gun on your skill bar. A skill bar that already has one of the best heals in the game that removes 2 condis every 15-20s.

Engi is among the worst at dealing with conditions no matter how you gear, but they have a chance. My argument is unless using Mallyx + Corruption a Rev doesn’t really have that same chance, at least I don’t think so. I believe increasing the amount of conditions removed on the traits/skills that have that functionality would help a lot and I would like to see where that puts us in BWE3 before we start seriously asking for more sources of removal.

The problem isn’t lack of options, its lack of build diversity. They actually have a couple of very decent options:

Salvation Trait Eluding Nullification: Dodge rolling removes a condition from nearby allies.

Invocation Trait Cleansing Channel: Invoking a legend removes a condition.

Staff skill Renewing Wave: Send out a wave of mist energy that heals and removes conditions from allies.

Legendary Assassin skill Riposting Shadows: Evade back quickly though the Mists, removing debilitating conditions.

Legendary Dwarf Skill Soothing Stone: Heal yourself and remove conditions. Gain retaliation for each condition removed.

Legendary Centaur Skill Purifying Essence: Remove conditions from allies near the tablet, and heal them for a small amount per condition removed.

This doesn’t even count Mallyx’s access to resistance or the legendary dragon’s Infuse Light.

So that gives us five different legendaries that grant some means of dealing with conditions, although some much weaker than others: Dwarf and centaur can outright remove several, dragon can convert some of the damage to healing, assassin can cure a few specific ones, and mallyx can flat out ignore them via several methods.

We have one weapon skill that removes conditions, a trait on dodge, a trait on invocing a legend….

Frankly, although we may not have the best method of dealing with conditions, we aren’t entirely flatlined by them either, and some builds will in fact deal with condis very well.

Its like the aforementioned engineer: they have means too, they just have to CHOOSE them.

The problem is that the engineer can pick and choose to some extent, whereas the revenant his skills come in packages together, limiting your build variety. THAT is the problem: but you can deal with condis just fine if you choose to build for it.

Me, I was playing Mallyx/jalis… I loved it, and condis were rarely an issue for me, plus I was dealing out condis to the enemy like it was candy. Loved it

EDIT: that being said, although I don’t like the lack of build diversity that the revenant has to deal with, now that they also have weapon swap, having both two weapon sets AND two utility sets would make him too powerful if he could also change skills… with one exception. I firmly stand by the belief that they should be able to use racial skills. It wouldn’t harm anything, as the devs have said from day 1 they make the racial skills weaker, and it would just be strange to have one class that cant use racial skills.

And frankly, I now LOVE the revenant. Mallyx/Jalis all the way here, baby LOL

EDIT #2: And Jalis’ Vengeful Hammers reduces incoming condi damage 20%

ZDragon.3046:

Black Box.9312:

ZDragon.3046:

Black Box.9312:

ZDragon.3046:

posthumecaver.6473:

The trick is normally I don’t feel that weak against conditions, if you take retribution while you have to keep that stability up, you have to dodge alot and condi classes have really hard time placing condi bomb on me. They only manage it during the Crystal Hybernation mainly or Staff 4.

What disturbs me is how effective confusion is on Shiro and Staff because of multi hits but people claim that is because of bug, for ex sword 3 should proc one confusion active damage but it is procing 7 times now, if this is true then Ok then I don’t have too much to complain.

But if the multi hits from Staff and Sword will suffer from confusion then yeah I demand something that reduce that effect otherwise my Revenant will make Harakiri lots of times.

Most confusion condition applications dont last very long. Have you tried simply not attacking and waiting for the stacks to fall off? The three is now an evade which means you can go zipping around without having to worry about aoe damage. I think its prefectly fair to proc 7 times for each attempted strike if you chose to use the skill with confusion on you. Just as how the skill grants might for every time you hit not all 7 might stacks on use. Its fine as it is just don’t go zipping into the fight with confusion on you. If your using shiro then you should be playing like a thief not a warrior.

That defies the entire design of confusion though. Confusion punishes skill activation, whereas retaliation punishes hitting your enemy. Confusion is already much more powerful than retaliation, so there’s really no need for it to be encroaching on retal’s territory.

Its possibly because of the fact that the skill mechanic attempts builds might for every strike thus its possibly counted as using a skill. Retaliation is honestly too weak and its hardly noticeable anyways. Are you suggesting changes be mad to retaliation to yield the same result? Either way right now its a good counter play to a near 2 seconds of evades with good damage. The start up cannot be evaded or blocked making at least a few of your attacks promised to hit if in range. The only way to avoid being hit is to block with some skills not every profession has or burn 2 evades. The skill is very hard to counter right now and for that reason it should stay as it is.
“As you said it punishes activation” you activate the attack with confusion on you (Totally your call on doing so) Its not like confusion can be applied to you during the skill sense you are evading so….. it must have been on you before activation….. then you take 7 hits of confusion.

So really its not defying how confusion works now is it?

No, it’s still defying the mechanics behind confusion because you’re only activating ONE skill. Skills such as Hundred Blades, Whirling Wrath, and Blurred Frenzy are all multi-hit attacks, but they only proc one damage instance of confusion each. This is how it should be.

The proper counterplay you are looking for is with retaliation, not confusion. Retaliation punishes on hit, and confusion punishes on skill activation. Sure, retaliation could use a buff, but changing confusion to do its job instead is not the proper way to go about such a thing.

Those attacks do not evade while you do them. There needs to be a punishable counter to that skill. If it was not evading for nearly 2 full seconds, I could see your reason behind this. But as long as that attack is an evade I simply see the confusion as a counter to its activation.

IF they changed retaliation to actually be more punishing on hitting an enemy with it on I would then fully see your point with this skill. But when you have an attack that cant be countered with anything other than being out of range or condition damage well.. yeah. If you could evade the startup which would cause the attack to fail then I would also be fine with that.

Blurred Frenzy very much does evade as you use it, actually. And yes, the idea I’m going for is that retaliation should be more punishing. Because we don’t want confusion to take its job and render it obsolete entirely.

But either way, confusion should not proc more than once on skill use for any skill at all, including Unrelenting Assault. We’re talking about something that is defying the game’s basic mechanics, not a balancing issue that is up for debate. Your opinion (and anyone else’s, for that matter) is entirely irrelevant here because it’s a bug that needs to be fixed.

I think the people that are complaining want to run Shiro/Glint and still have strong condition removal.

Misguided.5139:

I think the people that are complaining want to run Shiro/Glint and still have strong condition removal.

And thats the problem. As with any build, you can’t get everything you want.

Unless you are an elementalist.

Meh, posted in the wrong thread, lets see wether I can make something constructive up.

I feel the condi clear needs only minor tweaks (as it is already better than teefs), but I really think there should be a way to disengage, even if less available than on other classes.

Adamantium.3682:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

quaniesan.8497:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Much to your dismay, Revenant’s do need a weakness.

I do agree each class needs to have a counterplay. Don’t you think that it also doesn’t have to be he should be virtually helpless against it though. Conditions are no longer like they were when the game first launched, they are now more prevalent, easily reapplied (in matter of seconds). Especially in PvP when virtually every classes do condi now, it means that non-Mallyx will be weak against everyone. I do think condi removal on legend swap should be increased to one, each legend should have at least one way to remove condition, be it a weaker one than other classes.

I don’t think that is entirely true, as an example engineers don’t run much condition removal in PvP as they have limited options similar to revenant, but still aren’t helpless in PvP.

Well now you’re right in my wheel house Roy!

Most competitive Engi builds use Alchemy, which even if you change nothing about your skill bar can help tremendously (relative to baseline Engi). You get the 75% health Elixir B proc and clear. 25% health Elixir S proc and clear if you grab it. Transmute every 15s. This is without using any elixirs or Elixir Gun on your skill bar. A skill bar that already has one of the best heals in the game that removes 2 condis every 15-20s.

Engi is among the worst at dealing with conditions no matter how you gear, but they have a chance. My argument is unless using Mallyx + Corruption a Rev doesn’t really have that same chance, at least I don’t think so. I believe increasing the amount of conditions removed on the traits/skills that have that functionality would help a lot and I would like to see where that puts us in BWE3 before we start seriously asking for more sources of removal.

To add to this point engi is really good at applying conditions more so than most professions. They do it better than warriors, rangers (in most cases), thief (in most cases), even necromancers (talking application not xfer) only applying conditions with skills that are not reflects.. About the only profession that does it better is mesmer because it just spawn and shatter spawn and shatter spawn block spawn and shatter. I say honestly Revy needs no more removal at least on shiro, mallyx, and glint. If anything gets more removal is ventari and the other stance. AND even then the removal should be minor so not to devailue Mallyx.

ZDragon.3046:

Adamantium.3682:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

quaniesan.8497:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Much to your dismay, Revenant’s do need a weakness.

I do agree each class needs to have a counterplay. Don’t you think that it also doesn’t have to be he should be virtually helpless against it though. Conditions are no longer like they were when the game first launched, they are now more prevalent, easily reapplied (in matter of seconds). Especially in PvP when virtually every classes do condi now, it means that non-Mallyx will be weak against everyone. I do think condi removal on legend swap should be increased to one, each legend should have at least one way to remove condition, be it a weaker one than other classes.

I don’t think that is entirely true, as an example engineers don’t run much condition removal in PvP as they have limited options similar to revenant, but still aren’t helpless in PvP.

Well now you’re right in my wheel house Roy!

Most competitive Engi builds use Alchemy, which even if you change nothing about your skill bar can help tremendously (relative to baseline Engi). You get the 75% health Elixir B proc and clear. 25% health Elixir S proc and clear if you grab it. Transmute every 15s. This is without using any elixirs or Elixir Gun on your skill bar. A skill bar that already has one of the best heals in the game that removes 2 condis every 15-20s.

Engi is among the worst at dealing with conditions no matter how you gear, but they have a chance. My argument is unless using Mallyx + Corruption a Rev doesn’t really have that same chance, at least I don’t think so. I believe increasing the amount of conditions removed on the traits/skills that have that functionality would help a lot and I would like to see where that puts us in BWE3 before we start seriously asking for more sources of removal.

To add to this point engi is really good at applying conditions more so than most professions. They do it better than warriors, rangers (in most cases), thief (in most cases), even necromancers (talking application not xfer) only applying conditions with skills that are not reflects.. About the only profession that does it better is mesmer because it just spawn and shatter spawn and shatter spawn block spawn and shatter. I say honestly Revy needs no more removal at least on shiro, mallyx, and glint. If anything gets more removal is ventari and the other stance. AND even then the removal should be minor so not to devailue Mallyx.

You and your “devailue Mallyx” you must be a big fan of it. Mallyx offers a lot of resistance and due to that you can outplay most condibuilds I mean as long as your enemy doesn’t know your weakness, jup right no stunnbreakers. That’s why I’m not a big fan of mallyx at least not for the power builds I tested. For condibuilds I find mallyx pretty funny but that is because you can go way more deffensive while wrecking every other condibuild (without boonstripping).
+ Nothing is going to devailue Mallyx because you take him on every condibuild. It would be nice if he isn’t going to be mandatory in powerbuilds AND THAT is what the people are asking for.
I know you can’t have all on every legend. Having not much condicleans is okayisch but the ones you have shound be a bit better then they are now

-Staff4 is in most cases worse to use then using nothing because it roots you
-1 condi clean on dodge (10s ICD) is useless because you will always have cover condis on you specially in team fights
-1 condi clean on leg swap (10s ICD) same as the one with the dodge

So to take this 3 condi cleans you have to equip staff and take 2 traitlines you should mean if you take so much stuff you should get accsess to a lot more than that.

-Jalis heal since they buffed the heal of it I find it okay as it is.

-Ventari condi cleans, not really good for yourself because they take to long till you get it. Lets say you are in a different legend and you have to swap till you get the condi cleanse you will most likely be burnt to death.

Valfaros.6908:

ZDragon.3046:

Adamantium.3682:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

quaniesan.8497:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Much to your dismay, Revenant’s do need a weakness.

I do agree each class needs to have a counterplay. Don’t you think that it also doesn’t have to be he should be virtually helpless against it though. Conditions are no longer like they were when the game first launched, they are now more prevalent, easily reapplied (in matter of seconds). Especially in PvP when virtually every classes do condi now, it means that non-Mallyx will be weak against everyone. I do think condi removal on legend swap should be increased to one, each legend should have at least one way to remove condition, be it a weaker one than other classes.

I don’t think that is entirely true, as an example engineers don’t run much condition removal in PvP as they have limited options similar to revenant, but still aren’t helpless in PvP.

Well now you’re right in my wheel house Roy!

Most competitive Engi builds use Alchemy, which even if you change nothing about your skill bar can help tremendously (relative to baseline Engi). You get the 75% health Elixir B proc and clear. 25% health Elixir S proc and clear if you grab it. Transmute every 15s. This is without using any elixirs or Elixir Gun on your skill bar. A skill bar that already has one of the best heals in the game that removes 2 condis every 15-20s.

Engi is among the worst at dealing with conditions no matter how you gear, but they have a chance. My argument is unless using Mallyx + Corruption a Rev doesn’t really have that same chance, at least I don’t think so. I believe increasing the amount of conditions removed on the traits/skills that have that functionality would help a lot and I would like to see where that puts us in BWE3 before we start seriously asking for more sources of removal.

To add to this point engi is really good at applying conditions more so than most professions. They do it better than warriors, rangers (in most cases), thief (in most cases), even necromancers (talking application not xfer) only applying conditions with skills that are not reflects.. About the only profession that does it better is mesmer because it just spawn and shatter spawn and shatter spawn block spawn and shatter. I say honestly Revy needs no more removal at least on shiro, mallyx, and glint. If anything gets more removal is ventari and the other stance. AND even then the removal should be minor so not to devailue Mallyx.

You and your “devailue Mallyx” you must be a big fan of it. Mallyx offers a lot of resistance and due to that you can outplay most condibuilds I mean as long as your enemy doesn’t know your weakness, jup right no stunnbreakers. That’s why I’m not a big fan of mallyx at least not for the power builds I tested. For condibuilds I find mallyx pretty funny but that is because you can go way more deffensive while wrecking every other condibuild (without boonstripping).
+ Nothing is going to devailue Mallyx because you take him on every condibuild. It would be nice if he isn’t going to be mandatory in powerbuilds AND THAT is what the people are asking for.
I know you can’t have all on every legend. Having not much condicleans is okayisch but the ones you have shound be a bit better then they are now

-Staff4 is in most cases worse to use then using nothing because it roots you
-1 condi clean on dodge (10s ICD) is useless because you will always have cover condis on you specially in team fights
-1 condi clean on leg swap (10s ICD) same as the one with the dodge

So to take this 3 condi cleans you have to equip staff and take 2 traitlines you should mean if you take so much stuff you should get accsess to a lot more than that.

-Jalis heal since they buffed the heal of it I find it okay as it is.

-Ventari condi cleans, not really good for yourself because they take to long till you get it. Lets say you are in a different legend and you have to swap till you get the condi cleanse you will most likely be burnt to death.

I agree with a lot of this, except the qualifier “Mallyx is good as long as your enemy doesn’t know the weakness is stuns”. Nothing is a secret in PvP in this game, even after just a few days of beta experience. Everyone and their mother will know to stun a Mallyx Rev, that in and of itself doesn’t make Mallyx bad.

The bulk of your post is how I feel about the condition issue though. In this very thread I have said what I would like to see is the existing avenues of condition cleanse to remove a more than they do now, and go from there. I’m not sure the Revenant needs more skills or traits that remove conditions yet, but swapping legends and burning a stunbreak to do so and losing all your legend skills thus forcing a change to your combat approach just to clear 1 condition is pretty terrible.

Similarly using endurance to clear 1 condition isn’t great I would prefer 2.

Also I am going to keep saying this, why do dodge related traits have cooldowns? It’s already gated by endurance! I think it would add a better element of decision making if I had the ability to choose to use all my endurance to clear condis and activate traits rather than evading attack damage. This is not specific to condition clearing, or even the Revenant necessarily. Very few dodge related traits are not also gated by a cooldown. I don’t think any of them should have a cooldown.

staff has condi cleanse on skill 4 once 15 sec curse 3 condi
tablet ventari curse condi with a small can be used only 2 times wen energy is 100 which is almost never in fights
1 condi cleanse per legend switch

People should try Mallyx/Glint over Shiro/Glint more. The great thing about Mallyx is that it isn’t purely for condition management. While providing that sweet Resistance, Mallyx offers some great utility:
1. AoE cleanse for allies
2. Spammable boon rip of 2 boons
3. Displacement field for anti-stomping
And, it’s good to have a bursty heal to pair with Glint, instead of having 2 gimmick heals (having to hit / having to get hit). Also, EtD boosts stats by 10%, which I find great in Cele builds

I find it worth being a bit more slow, than having to run in the opposite direction when encountering a condi class. I’m OK with having perma swiftness and axe teleport as mobility.

during beta i did great running wvw with -condi duration… it helped quite a bit, as i did shiro, and dragon. sorry, forgot name… newb still with rev, but i had a lot of fun and cant wait to make it my main. and -condi runes helps tons! thats just my experience though… i dont really know much yet, but hope that gives some kind of idea. thanks guys, and if u all have better advice to tone the condis on us, im all ears. thanks again, u guys are great.
++++edit+++ i was running a power/toughness build with no crit chance. as it doesnt seem needed at all… the survivability alone was plentiful. the dmg i put out was more than enough to wear my opponent down quickly. and dual heals rock!! toughest fight i had was vs a reaper… that lasted bout 5mins1!!! tough fight imo;. any advice fighting a reaper? thank you again.

My Sweet Lily.1952:

People should try Mallyx/Glint over Shiro/Glint more. The great thing about Mallyx is that it isn’t purely for condition management. While providing that sweet Resistance, Mallyx offers some great utility:
1. AoE cleanse for allies
2. Spammable boon rip of 2 boons
3. Displacement field for anti-stomping
And, it’s good to have a bursty heal to pair with Glint, instead of having 2 gimmick heals (having to hit / having to get hit). Also, EtD boosts stats by 10%, which I find great in Cele builds

I find it worth being a bit more slow, than having to run in the opposite direction when encountering a condi class. I’m OK with having perma swiftness and axe teleport as mobility.

This. I keep telling people, you absolutely don’t need shiro AT ALL in pvp. I can understand people using it in wvw for chasing, but for pvp? A shiro Revenant is a free kill. Mallyx is by far the strongest legend, outside of glint but honestly that one’s pretty op to begin with.
The beauty of revenants is that you dont need to take shiro to do amazing damage and people seem to fail to see this. Glint is gonna give you amazing defense against physical damage, while mallyx is gonna give you near immunity to condi builds. Just go ham on them meanwhile, you pretty much counter both types of builds with those two legends, they’ll eventually die because you have better healing as well.
Honestly the only class that gave me any issues at all was DD ele with diamond skin, his health would literally not go down. At all.

I think ppl pick shiro bcos:
-its funny to play
-its amazing in battle
-its hard to play= ppl have more joy to play this
-you have more fun playing it, quote frome Phantaram " is suuch funny to play; Its Amazing how much fun i had playing it"

ITs not about chase, its bcos of free stunbreak, free tp trough walls/objects, quickness stomps, and ultimate that can change battle. How many time i just tp trough walls and interrupt with sword 5 stomp, then gather energy for Jadewind /freeress… Its amazing melee combat. Also only overload of conditions can make shiro/Glint out of game.