Guild Wars 2

Goo.7926:

Ayrilana.1396:

I think people are just confused about the difference between a beta versus a demo.

A Beta is supposed to come after an Alpha (tested by devs)! But this Revenant Beta was worst than an Alpha! Devs don’t even play their own game or what?? Rev with only two out of four legends and not even water weapons?! How that can be a beta for ‘’revenant balance tests’’ with other profession in the game?!

A.net sucks very bad right now!

3 legends, one of which was new. Maybe you didn’t play the beta?

Facepalm original post.

But the Legendary Demon stance is not useless, problem is PvE related, since there are no heavy condition usage on any monster, outside Dry Top and Silverwastes.

What I’ve heard, is that ANet plans to update all maps, except starter maps, so that you can play solo, but don’t expect to get through it by just “full berserker DPS spam skill 1-2 and no dodging”.
Hopefully.

Ayrilana.1396:

Read up on the difference between an alpha and a beta. Nowhere was it stated, or necessary, for the entire class to be available in order to test it.

This is kind of a tangent, but there is no singular correct definition for the development stages Alpha and Beta. One “textbook” definition might say that a Beta is defined as “feature complete” whereas an Alpha is a stage where major systemic changes may happen and features can be added or removed.

One, more game development specific, definition might be that a first Beta simply means that the content can be completed from start to end, ie. that all the content exists in some form and is in sequence.

About the only thing related to the use of Alpha and Beta to describe state of development these days, that is constant, is that Alpha comes before Beta. There are exactly as many definitions of these stages as there are developers to define them. More so when the development is iterative or agile in nature and thus doesn’t even necessarily follow linear development stages of any kind.

DaveyC.4398:

Other classes where available in the Beta Portal event. Even in my EGX experience other professions where available and played by other people, for what it is worth. Arena Net calculate their boss stats using software, this has been stated on the forums previously. This should be no different for our new class, and probably isn’t.

Lets get one thing straight. I am not trying to kittenbag Arena Net. I appreciate the work they are doing as I love the franchise. I have been here since GW1 Prophecies. I am also reading between the unspoken lines.

As I have already stated, I have experience in development and marketing. What we have been presented with isn’t worthy of a beta. Both on Arena Nets side and the players side.

To me this feels like PR from the beta backlash and the lack of information for quite some time.

Unless you can give me genuine reasons backed up with genuine facts other than ‘Useful Data’ .

I would appreciate you not white knitting my forum post. Prior to this I was the biggest of them all nearly

I feel you. Honestly I believe the build in last weekend beta isn’t in the same league as the build their insiders are using for testing.

We got a kitten Revenant for marketing. Getting a kitten DPS class in beta, would make for a great hype jump for its DPS answer to get revealed. (Shiro ) while also limiting people’s perception of the class being OP.

Crise.9401:

Ayrilana.1396:

Read up on the difference between an alpha and a beta. Nowhere was it stated, or necessary, for the entire class to be available in order to test it.

This is kind of a tangent, but there is no singular correct definition for the development stages Alpha and Beta. One “textbook” definition might say that a Beta is defined as “feature complete” whereas an Alpha is a stage where major systemic changes may happen and features can be added or removed.

One, more game development specific, definition might be that a first Beta simply means that the content can be completed from start to end, ie. that all the content exists in some form and is in sequence.

About the only thing related to the use of Alpha and Beta to describe state of development these days, that is constant, is that Alpha comes before Beta. There are exactly as many definitions of these stages as there are developers to define them. More so when the development is iterative or agile in nature and thus doesn’t even necessarily follow linear development stages of any kind.

I know. That’s why I was telling him to read up on it because I knew he wouldn’t find anything that differentiates the two.

Crise.9401:

Ayrilana.1396:

Read up on the difference between an alpha and a beta. Nowhere was it stated, or necessary, for the entire class to be available in order to test it.

This is kind of a tangent, but there is no singular correct definition for the development stages Alpha and Beta. One “textbook” definition might say that a Beta is defined as “feature complete” whereas an Alpha is a stage where major systemic changes may happen and features can be added or removed.

One, more game development specific, definition might be that a first Beta simply means that the content can be completed from start to end, ie. that all the content exists in some form and is in sequence.

About the only thing related to the use of Alpha and Beta to describe state of development these days, that is constant, is that Alpha comes before Beta. There are exactly as many definitions of these stages as there are developers to define them. More so when the development is iterative or agile in nature and thus doesn’t even necessarily follow linear development stages of any kind.

Hmm… I’d say (from having been there) that alphas are significantly incomplete and only test parts, while betas tend to test the integrated whole. Sweeping changes may occur in both, though they are (a lot) rarer in the beta.

On the whole, I’d say ANet’s ‘betas’ are more like alphas, which makes me suspect the release version will be the real beta. Which, sad to say, is not uncommon.

Did nobody try zerk armor with Strength runes, might stacking traits and the might stacking on the Mace/Axe combo? I found it really easy to maintain high might stacks solo, which made damage decent even without Shiro legend. It wasn’t ideal, but it felt promising seeing as how Rev is still very work in progress and I believe the numbers are set lower to help stop people from complaining all over the forums that the “Revenant is overpowered!!!” like I saw when they announced it and Rytlock looked awesome.

Astralporing.1957:

Morfedel.4165:

Astralporing.1957:

Morfedel.4165:

There is a huge difference between constructive and destructive criticism.

Yes. That’s why trying to put down all criticism as useless is bad. And most of the criticism about revenant that appeared on forums during and after beta was constructive – it not only pinpointed the main problems with the class, but also even sometimes offered solutions.

Huh, you think so? I’ve seen posts like… well, the one below yours, saying that “+1 Was extremely excited about Revenant then super disappointed after playing one.”

Sure. You should have also seen posts that pointed out exactly what people found disappointing. Unless you consciously chose not to see them.

I did. And yet again, there is a difference between constructive and destructive criticisms.

Goo.7926:

Ayrilana.1396:

I think people are just confused about the difference between a beta versus a demo.

A Beta is supposed to come after an Alpha (tested by devs)! But this Revenant Beta was worst than an Alpha! Devs don’t even play their own game or what?? Rev with only two out of four legends and not even water weapons?! How that can be a beta for ‘’revenant balance tests’’ with other profession in the game?!

A.net sucks very bad right now!

If you think this is worse than an alpha you clearly have never done an alpha. I have. You really don’t know what you’re talking about.

Chill out with all the vitriol, eh?

To be fair, they will probably buff the Rev before launch. Still I agree that they need to reveal more to make this expansion worth getting. Gone are the days when I will blindly throw my money at Anet. I don’t really play right now aside from getting my log in bonus, just because of time and other things. Lion’s arch looks great, granted but I’m hoping this expansion will be worthwhile and that the Mordremoth encounter (if there is one) will be way better than Zhaitan’s.

FrostSpectre.4198:

Facepalm original post.

---

But the Legendary Demon stance is not useless, problem is PvE related, since there are no heavy condition usage on any monster, outside Dry Top and Silverwastes.

What I’ve heard, is that ANet plans to update all maps, except starter maps, so that you can play solo, but don’t expect to get through it by just “full berserker DPS spam skill 1-2 and no dodging”.
Hopefully.

Citation needed because this is a complete reversal of Anet’s long strides toward making the game as easy and casual friendly as possible.

What is disappointing is not the damage on rev, its the fact that most of you don’t have the brain to realize that the legends you were able to play as weren’t damage dealing specs. Jalis and ventari were both defensive, and mallyx was the only offensive and even that was centered around condi damage. It is just mind blowing to me that all of you who are whining about rev not doing damage on zerk specs didn’t have the common sense to notice that the legends weren’t centered around doing high damage with zerk gear. Maybe if you guys tried to use the appropriate armor set with their respective roles, you would have noticed how each legend performs at its specific role. Expecting either jalis or ventari to do high or even decent damage on zerk and then comparing it to classes that do high damage on zerk such as thief or warrior is like comparing a plastic butter knife to a real sword.

Substance E.4852:

Citation needed because this is a complete reversal of Anet’s long strides toward making the game as easy and casual friendly as possible.

SW and Dry top have definitely harder content than before relatively speaking, so I’m not sure where you got it from that ArenaNet made long strides to make it as easy and casual friendly as possible. (Maybe casual friendly, time wise) I’m pretty sure that also needs actual citation.

FrizzFreston.5290:

Substance E.4852:

Citation needed because this is a complete reversal of Anet’s long strides toward making the game as easy and casual friendly as possible.

SW and Dry top have definitely harder content than before relatively speaking, so I’m not sure where you got it from that ArenaNet made long strides to make it as easy and casual friendly as possible. (Maybe casual friendly, time wise) I’m pretty sure that also needs actual citation.

Harder in what sense? I as an individual don’t have to put in any particularly high level of ability for the event to win and most if not all of the content can still be done with auto attack spam given appropriate numbers of people.

The only remotely difficult Dry Top event is the Sand Giant and people stopped messing with him after a few days.

Neither zone requires any real planning of builds or strategy and 2 of the SW sub-bosses can be killed by just standing in the right spot and 1-1-1-1-1’ing them from range. The tandem boss is probably the hardest and that comes from other players popping bubbles too soon more than it does from the mechanics of the fight itself.

Strides as in they have seeming all but abandoned instanced, party content where personal performance impacts success of the event/mission and interaction with those directly next to you is necessary in exchange for large open world content where you need only learn where to and not to stand while auto attacking a large HP blob.

Hell, all three VW fights literally are “stand in spot X to completely negate the bosses’ special attack.”

Even if you don’t know to drag bees to combs or open platform flowers, chances are, at least 1 other person in there does and the fight will go as planned because of it.

MMO’s typically tend to elevate the skill ceiling as time goes on where as Anet seems to be lowering it or at the very least, leaving it where it is.

Substance E.4852:

2 of the SW sub-bosses can be killed by just standing in the right spot and 1-1-1-1-1’ing them from range.

Hell, all three VW fights literally are “stand in spot X to completely negate the bosses’ special attack.”

I really hope those spots you mention above are intended mechanics and not like standing on the box at Golem or standing to the side of the cliff and Jormag.

Ayrilana.1396:

Substance E.4852:

2 of the SW sub-bosses can be killed by just standing in the right spot and 1-1-1-1-1’ing them from range.

Hell, all three VW fights literally are “stand in spot X to completely negate the bosses’ special attack.”

I really hope those spots you mention above are intended mechanics and not like standing on the box at Golem or standing to the side of the cliff and Jormag.

What do you define as “intended mechanics”?

Last I checked, the only thing they intend for us to do is to burn them down with deeps before the timer runs out.

If Anet chooses not to fix exploits that are caused by the simple misplacement of environment assets, that’s their choice.

Substance E.4852:

Ayrilana.1396:

Substance E.4852:

2 of the SW sub-bosses can be killed by just standing in the right spot and 1-1-1-1-1’ing them from range.

Hell, all three VW fights literally are “stand in spot X to completely negate the bosses’ special attack.”

I really hope those spots you mention above are intended mechanics and not like standing on the box at Golem or standing to the side of the cliff and Jormag.

What do you define as “intended mechanics”?

Last I checked, the only thing they intend for us to do is to burn them down with deeps before the timer runs out.

If Anet chooses not to fix exploits that are caused by the simple misplacement of environment assets, that’s their choice.

Essentially exploits although the Jormag case technically isn’t one. You cannot claim something poses no challenge simply because you can take advantage of an exploit to remove such challenge.

Ayrilana.1396:

Substance E.4852:

Ayrilana.1396:

Substance E.4852:

2 of the SW sub-bosses can be killed by just standing in the right spot and 1-1-1-1-1’ing them from range.

Hell, all three VW fights literally are “stand in spot X to completely negate the bosses’ special attack.”

I really hope those spots you mention above are intended mechanics and not like standing on the box at Golem or standing to the side of the cliff and Jormag.

What do you define as “intended mechanics”?

Last I checked, the only thing they intend for us to do is to burn them down with deeps before the timer runs out.

If Anet chooses not to fix exploits that are caused by the simple misplacement of environment assets, that’s their choice.

Essentially exploits although the Jormag case technically isn’t one. You cannot claim something poses no challenge simply because you can take advantage of an exploit to remove such challenge.

I certainly didn’t list just the Golem and your lying to yourself if you think that’s the only world boss that requires little to no movement or thought to beat.

Mega Destroyer is in the exact same zone with similar lvl requirements and also involves standing in one spot and auto attacking with a ranged weapon largely out of harm’s way. Is it an exploit to stand on the rock tips with so many allies around me I often don’t get tallied into the AoE limit from fireballs?

Substance E.4852:

Ayrilana.1396:

Substance E.4852:

Ayrilana.1396:

Substance E.4852:

2 of the SW sub-bosses can be killed by just standing in the right spot and 1-1-1-1-1’ing them from range.

Hell, all three VW fights literally are “stand in spot X to completely negate the bosses’ special attack.”

I really hope those spots you mention above are intended mechanics and not like standing on the box at Golem or standing to the side of the cliff and Jormag.

What do you define as “intended mechanics”?

Last I checked, the only thing they intend for us to do is to burn them down with deeps before the timer runs out.

If Anet chooses not to fix exploits that are caused by the simple misplacement of environment assets, that’s their choice.

Essentially exploits although the Jormag case technically isn’t one. You cannot claim something poses no challenge simply because you can take advantage of an exploit to remove such challenge.

I certainly didn’t list just the Golem and your lying to yourself if you think that’s the only world boss that requires little to no movement or thought to beat.

Mega Destroyer is in the exact same zone with similar lvl requirements and also involves standing in one spot and auto attacking with a ranged weapon largely out of harm’s way. Is it an exploit to stand on the rock tips with so many allies around me I often don’t get tallied into the AoE limit from fireballs?

I never said that you did. In fact, it was pretty clear that I was the one who listed it. It’s not about beating a boss that requires little to no movement to beat. It’s about positioning yourself in such a way that you bypass the mechanics resulting in a riskless fight.

But then you probably don’t see the difference and think they’re acceptable because after all:

Substance E.4852:

If Anet chooses not to fix exploits that are caused by the simple misplacement of environment assets, that’s their choice.

Clearly this makes it acceptable…

Ayrilana.1396:

But then you probably don’t see the difference and think they’re acceptable because after all:

Substance E.4852:

If Anet chooses not to fix exploits that are caused by the simple misplacement of environment assets, that’s their choice.

Clearly this makes it acceptable…

I’m still trying to figure out what metric you are using to determine what is and isn’t acceptable. If something let’s you bypass the risk and Anet is cool with it by virtue of doing nothing to stop it when they very easily could, then it’s kosher.

Hell, you used to be able to stand on top of the Overseer’s office/control room w/e and shoot at the golem with no risk at all then they updated it so that the knockback aoe also reaches up there.

They didn’t put an invisible wall or adjust the geometry to prevent climbing up there when they easily could have. They simply made it so you couldn’t AFK with a longbow ranger up there anymore despite still being well out of the way of the damaging ground aoe’s.

Substance E.4852:

Ayrilana.1396:

But then you probably don’t see the difference and think they’re acceptable because after all:

Substance E.4852:

If Anet chooses not to fix exploits that are caused by the simple misplacement of environment assets, that’s their choice.

Clearly this makes it acceptable…

I’m still trying to figure out what metric you are using to determine what is and isn’t acceptable. If something let’s you bypass the risk and Anet is cool with it by virtue of doing nothing to stop it when they very easily could, then it’s kosher.

Hell, you used to be able to stand on top of the Overseer’s office/control room w/e and shoot at the golem with no risk at all then they updated it so that the knockback aoe also reaches up there.

They didn’t put an invisible wall or adjust the geometry to prevent climbing up there when they easily could have. They simply made it so you couldn’t AFK with a longbow ranger up there anymore despite still being well out of the way of the damaging ground aoe’s.

I’m sorry but inaction is not permission. I would definitely take that to heart in the real world as there are many situations where you will get in a lot of trouble if you believe otherwise. If you want to find out the metric I used then refer to their posts on what they consider an exploit. Or you can just look at the wiki.

With that said, let’s drop this talk about the subject and go back to the discussion about people being disappointed with the recent beta test.

Substance E.4852:

FrizzFreston.5290:

Substance E.4852:

Citation needed because this is a complete reversal of Anet’s long strides toward making the game as easy and casual friendly as possible.

SW and Dry top have definitely harder content than before relatively speaking, so I’m not sure where you got it from that ArenaNet made long strides to make it as easy and casual friendly as possible. (Maybe casual friendly, time wise) I’m pretty sure that also needs actual citation.

Harder in what sense? I as an individual don’t have to put in any particularly high level of ability for the event to win and most if not all of the content can still be done with auto attack spam given appropriate numbers of people.

The only remotely difficult Dry Top event is the Sand Giant and people stopped messing with him after a few days.

Neither zone requires any real planning of builds or strategy and 2 of the SW sub-bosses can be killed by just standing in the right spot and 1-1-1-1-1’ing them from range. The tandem boss is probably the hardest and that comes from other players popping bubbles too soon more than it does from the mechanics of the fight itself.

Strides as in they have seeming all but abandoned instanced, party content where personal performance impacts success of the event/mission and interaction with those directly next to you is necessary in exchange for large open world content where you need only learn where to and not to stand while auto attacking a large HP blob.

Hell, all three VW fights literally are “stand in spot X to completely negate the bosses’ special attack.”

Even if you don’t know to drag bees to combs or open platform flowers, chances are, at least 1 other person in there does and the fight will go as planned because of it.

MMO’s typically tend to elevate the skill ceiling as time goes on where as Anet seems to be lowering it or at the very least, leaving it where it is.

Strides based on your personal perception rather than actual facts. Good job. Next time don’t use “citation needed” when you can’t even do so yourself.

Plus I was speaking relatively. Harder doesn’t mean hard. Also it took a while before people figured the bosses out. If not abandon them completely because “too hard” which is more too much effort for little reward.

DaveyC.4398:

Hello All,

I had high hopes after playing the Revenant at EGX Rezzed. After Playing the first beta, I am so disappointed.

I have tried a zerker and condi build with all weapon types. All I have seen is crazy low DPS, to the point where it took about 8 mins to kill a vet with other players.

That and no underwater weapon hardly make it much of a Beta.

From my perspective, I wish Arena net had not bothered with this weekend. I would have preferred them admitting that we are a long way away from hot completion.

After what I have seen today, I doubt very much that I will be playing a rev from day one, if even at all.

For what it is worth, I am seriously questioning whether I have a future in this game. (No you cannot have my stuff).

I guess that’s what you get for blind loyalty when the overlords have a culture of bleeding gamblers dry when you are a bit of a gambler yourself.

I was afraid of that, HoT would probably be way too hard for me to enjoy it.

I already find the Living Story 2 too hard so I am probably not mad skillz 1337 enough for HoT.

I really liked the sneak peek at the Revenant. Sure, damage wise it wasn’t quite up there yet, but I found it quite enjoyable to play and not similar to another class. The whole look, feel and atmosphere of the class was nice. Special mention to the sound effects, they were kinda satisfying for lack of a better word. I agree that some additional customization would be good, or individual Revenants would be way too similar.

I reallyreally like how the class is kind of…dark but not too dark, if that makes sense. Usually I really dislike dark themed classes in online RPG’s, not because they’re dark but because they just seem so ill fitted to run around in a city without getting killed on sight by every guard around.

But the Revenant nailed the feeling well, kinda mysterious and sinister but nothing omgevil.

I hope that today’s POI showed everyone to not overreact and jump to conclusions when all of the info isn’t available yet. It also shows how valuable a beta is as a lot of the issues that were constructively reported got addressed. I’m pretty sure many more people are excited for the next chance to test out Revenant.

This isn’t a true testing beta, if it was it wouldn’t be:

“Hey guys you can help us “test” the Revenant by pre-purchasing an expansion we have told you next to nothing about! and playing our new class in the upcoming beta events!"

This is guaranteed marketing, no self-respecting game developer solely focusing on testing and data feedback will lock it behind a paywall.

People are pretty much paying them to test their game for them….pure marketing (and successful to boot!)

Zietlogik.6208:

This isn’t a true testing beta, if it was it wouldn’t be:

“Hey guys you can help us “test” the Revenant by pre-purchasing an expansion we have told you next to nothing about! and playing our new class in the upcoming beta events!"

This is guaranteed marketing, no self-respecting game developer solely focusing on testing and data feedback will lock it behind a paywall.

People are pretty much paying them to test their game for them….pure marketing (and successful to boot!)

No. You also forget that the majority of active players in an MMO purchase expansions. Hardly a marketing attempt.

Zietlogik.6208:

This isn’t a true testing beta, if it was it wouldn’t be:

“Hey guys you can help us “test” the Revenant by pre-purchasing an expansion we have told you next to nothing about! and playing our new class in the upcoming beta events!"

This is guaranteed marketing, no self-respecting game developer solely focusing on testing and data feedback will lock it behind a paywall.

People are pretty much paying them to test their game for them….pure marketing (and successful to boot!)

That isnt even close to what they said. What they said was:

“Anyone who prepurchases the xpac gets all this cool stuff (names some stuff) plus automatic entry into any beta we have!”

And guess what? that’s a kitten ed common thing for any computer game to do, offer free beta entry to any prepurchasers. Care for me to start listing a few dozen out as just a few examples?

So stop with the histrionics. Its nearly as common as betas themselves, and i’m hard pressed to think of a single mmo that DIDNT do that.

Goo.7926:

I see that. But don’t you think people will be bored to test 118 betas before the release?

Depends what the content of those 118 (if they have that many) betas will be. It’s not even relevant if people will be bored or not … I hope Anet does as many betas as they need to have an amazing HoT release.

Ayrilana.1396:

Zietlogik.6208:

This isn’t a true testing beta, if it was it wouldn’t be:

“Hey guys you can help us “test” the Revenant by pre-purchasing an expansion we have told you next to nothing about! and playing our new class in the upcoming beta events!"

This is guaranteed marketing, no self-respecting game developer solely focusing on testing and data feedback will lock it behind a paywall.

People are pretty much paying them to test their game for them….pure marketing (and successful to boot!)

No. You also forget that the majority of active players in an MMO purchase expansions. Hardly a marketing attempt.

I confess that I haven’t and I am hesitant to pre-purchase after hearing the horror stories in this thread.

Zietlogik.6208:

This isn’t a true testing beta, if it was it wouldn’t be:

“Hey guys you can help us “test” the Revenant by pre-purchasing an expansion we have told you next to nothing about! and playing our new class in the upcoming beta events!"

This is guaranteed marketing, no self-respecting game developer solely focusing on testing and data feedback will lock it behind a paywall.

People are pretty much paying them to test their game for them….pure marketing (and successful to boot!)

Actually putting out a product with a bunch of people and seeing how they use it and gathering metrics and details and data on that is exactly the kind of test an MMO company would be expected to make.

For example, if they saw everyone only using one weapon or one legend all the time and nothing else, they could assume that the other ones are underpowered. It they see people trying a legend and moving away from it immediately it tells them something.

There are so many ways to test things. This is just one of them.