Guild Wars 2

I don’t post very often anymore, but I just wanted to express my feeling on this Nerf/Fix/Balance

I don’t know who in the office approved this (Nerf) But it handicaps Thieves ability tremendously. This is not a post out of anger, far from it. It is a post out of disbelief. Not being able to wrap my head around who would approve such a detrimental change?

A Thief was designed for quick and hard hitting succession for their attacks. This 1 second hindrance is not only disabling us from achieving quick and efficient timely kills, but also rendering us unavailable for 1 sec. And yes you can argue “Just use other skills”.

But when you burst someone out of stealth the majority of the time you will want to complete at least 1 auto attack chain. This effects x/D builds pretty substantially in fights.

I’ve had a couple fights in WvW, and those that know or remember me. I know quite a bit about Thief even if I did take a lengthy break for a while. For a Thief 1 second can mean the difference between life and death.

I urge people to agree with this testimony, and hopefully in a quick fix, this change can be altered somehow.

Eh, it’s no big deal. I guess now you may have to pay attention when stealthing instead of just spamming backstab.

OP, you have my voice: There’s a badly named thread to the same issue below yours =)

Dahkeus.8243:

Eh, it’s no big deal. I guess now you may have to pay attention when stealthing instead of just spamming backstab.

This.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Dahkeus.8243:

Eh, it’s no big deal. I guess now you may have to pay attention when stealthing instead of just spamming backstab.

This.

Question is: Why do thieves have to spam backstab/why could they spam backstab before? The moment you can answer this will be the moment you do realize this was an unjustified nerf.

Dahkeus.8243:

Eh, it’s no big deal. I guess now you may have to pay attention when stealthing instead of just spamming backstab.

I agree, with the whole having to pay attention to backstab piece, my argument was more-so for the A.A chain after a backstab, when and if that backstab does connect, in a timely manner.

I know for S/D and D/D the majority of our damage. Well… for all our weapon sets, in respect to P/X. Auto attacks are our main source of damage output.

And yes, its a 1 second thing out of stealth. But as i said before. 1 second matters.

I’m sorry but I don’t agree with you only because without the CD, Rendering Shade will be OP.

Rendering Shade removes Aegis so no more blocking Backstabs (and other boons that hinder a stealth-attack from connecting).

I like the fact that it now requires the Thief to spec SA if they will be using stealth a lot. The CD on stealth attack is a good balance tweak against DA/CS/(Tr or DD) builds.

I like this tweak to the profession (death to VA — finally). I’m only disappointed that it’s such a short list. They could have also added damage to all venoms when they’re at it.

What is rendering shade?

ETA: You mean Rending shades – I don’t see a use for that actually – but I’d probably have to try it. In the end it only works against aegis, all other blocks aren’t boons and there’s a lot of them around. And well a lot of people have got more than 1,2 or 3 boons.

Jana.6831:

What is rendering shade?

ETA: You mean Rending shades – I don’t see a use for that actually – but I’d probably have to try it. In the end it only works against aegis, all other blocks aren’t boons and there’s a lot of them around. And well a lot of people have got more than 1,2 or 3 boons.

If you want to deal enough dmg to be competitive SA is a lost cause even if it might be fun in some ways. The newly added trait won’t get you any dmg benefits it’s only 1 more defensive trait, which is not something SA lacked anyways. So now you’ll have to choose between healing tics in stealth vs 10% less dmg from enemies that don’t have buffs (which seems to me a fairly unlikely realistic scenario). Nothing that would boost your dmg so you can actually use SA in real fights (without considering the phantom ebola build, which is bs anyways).

NuhDah.9812:

Jana.6831:

What is rendering shade?

ETA: You mean Rending shades – I don’t see a use for that actually – but I’d probably have to try it. In the end it only works against aegis, all other blocks aren’t boons and there’s a lot of them around. And well a lot of people have got more than 1,2 or 3 boons.

If you want to deal enough dmg to be competitive SA is a lost cause even if it might be fun in some ways. The newly added trait won’t get you any dmg benefits it’s only 1 more defensive trait, which is not something SA lacked anyways. So now you’ll have to choose between healing tics in stealth vs 10% less dmg from enemies that don’t have buffs (which seems to me a fairly unlikely realistic scenario). Nothing that would boost your dmg so you can actually use SA in real fights (without considering the phantom ebola build, which is bs anyways).

SA does lack defensive traits – it isn’t a real defensive line anymore.
Hard to explain – back in the day you could use last refuge which now is a Major, so you have to decide whether you want to take Shadows Embrace or Last Refuge. Everybody who takes SA takes SE anyway, so last refuge and with that the reduced cooldown for hide in shadows is out of reach = you get a longer cooldown than before June last year = no one takes it anymore anyway. It was a good skill for D/D – also defensive.
Then we have: CiS as a major which collides with SRej and so on – the line has got half the sustain it used to have.
I don’t really see the benefits of the new trait either, but I didn’t test it as I rage quit the game pretty soon after the patch.

ETA: Last Refuge didn’t bother me – I guess my timing was pretty watertight – it only troubled me when I was lagging.

I wholly agree dude. I can’t even understand their reasoning for the 1 second cd. You only get one attack in stealth, correct? There is already a revealed period. Why add on the 1 second cd to my backstab? It’s already tough enough to position yourself correctly and land the attack at the opportune time, especially when paying attention to the positioning and the boons/condis on your target.

Bit confused on this. Is there some attack you can do twice in stealth?

Typically, a thief attacks, damage is done and a reveal is applied that is longer than 1s. I am sure I am just misreading the text here. Wonder if this effects traps.

blakkrskyrr.7413:

I wholly agree dude. I can’t even understand their reasoning for the 1 second cd. You only get one attack in stealth, correct? There is already a revealed period. Why add on the 1 second cd to my backstab? It’s already tough enough to position yourself correctly and land the attack at the opportune time, especially when paying attention to the positioning and the boons/condis on your target.

Yes there calls for concern for backstab, but my gripe is more-so for S/D. If people miss a backstab, I believe that is holistically their fault, but having to wait a whole second to auto attack after a missed OR successful backstab is a poor design. Thieves were designed to kill Hard, and Quickly.

Which brings me to another concern, in terms of PvP. PvP is way too fast paced right now, to be 1 second behind.

Wait if you successfully backstab someone you can’t auto attack them for 1 sec afterwards??

Bwhahahahaha

It doesn’t effect the AA so Backstap/spam AA works as it did before.

What it did change was if Backstab misses or is blocked and the player stays in stealth, there is a 1s cooldown. That is a fair change IMO. No more spamming Backstab until it lands without thought.

Jana.6831:

What is rendering shade?

ETA: You mean Rending shades – I don’t see a use for that actually – but I’d probably have to try it. In the end it only works against aegis, all other blocks aren’t boons and there’s a lot of them around. And well a lot of people have got more than 1,2 or 3 boons.

Yes that one, mind-hand-incoordination.

The way I see it is this;
- SR is for those who stays in shadows mainly using SA as a defensive trait line. (i.e. D/P users)
- RS is for those who go in stealth just to have access to the stealth attacks. These Thieves are using SA as an offensive trait line. (i.e. D/D users)

RS works on a lot of boons other than Aegis. You can steal might, regen, stab, etc. Aegis is the main reason why stealth attack doesn’t have any CD. The boon strip justifies the CD and at the same time nerfs D/P DA/CS/x builds.

The removal of VA is a big plus (too little too late but it’s still welcome) and adding the Venom CDR to Leeching trait is another plus. Bottom line, overall it’s a good update for hybrid builds.

Dahkeus.8243:

Eh, it’s no big deal. I guess now you may have to pay attention when stealthing instead of just spamming backstab.

It is if you play D/D, where the only functional skill in stealth is backstab.

This is why the change is so stupid; it nerfs our weakest set even more than it was already underpowered.

I’ve given up.

Straegen.2938:

It doesn’t effect the AA so Backstap/spam AA works as it did before.

What it did change was if Backstab misses or is blocked and the player stays in stealth, there is a 1s cooldown. That is a fair change IMO. No more spamming Backstab until it lands without thought.

Actually its a significant buff to my mesmer LOL

I would stealth on my mesmer and the REALLY REALLY good thieves would just know where i was and BS me while we both were stealthed.

This change creates a scenario where thieves won’t actively hunt other stealthed players while stealthed.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

DeceiverX.8361:

Dahkeus.8243:

Eh, it’s no big deal. I guess now you may have to pay attention when stealthing instead of just spamming backstab.

It is if you play D/D, where the only functional skill in stealth is backstab.

This is why the change is so stupid; it nerfs our weakest set even more than it was already underpowered.

I’ve given up.

ALL weaponsets are affected for thief not just D/D.

DeceiverX.8361:

Dahkeus.8243:

Eh, it’s no big deal. I guess now you may have to pay attention when stealthing instead of just spamming backstab.

It is if you play D/D, where the only functional skill in stealth is backstab.

This is why the change is so stupid; it nerfs our weakest set even more than it was already underpowered.

I’ve given up.

I have a feeling that Anet thinks it will also nerf D/P…which anybody worth their salt can tell you it will NEVER nerf D/P. D/P thrives on stealth, and can re-enter it easily.

DeceiverX.8361:

Dahkeus.8243:

Eh, it’s no big deal. I guess now you may have to pay attention when stealthing instead of just spamming backstab.

It is if you play D/D, where the only functional skill in stealth is backstab.

This is why the change is so stupid; it nerfs our weakest set even more than it was already underpowered.

I’ve given up.

In a hybrid D/D or condition D/D builds, backstab used to be useless, now we can spec for RS and use backstab as boon strip.

Azukas.1426:

Actually its a significant buff to my mesmer LOL

I would stealth on my mesmer and the REALLY REALLY good thieves would just know where i was and BS me while we both were stealthed.

This change creates a scenario where thieves won’t actively hunt other stealthed players while stealthed.

This is a fair point. A stealth mesmer fight is already a difficult fight.

Straegen.2938:

Azukas.1426:

Actually its a significant buff to my mesmer LOL

I would stealth on my mesmer and the REALLY REALLY good thieves would just know where i was and BS me while we both were stealthed.

This change creates a scenario where thieves won’t actively hunt other stealthed players while stealthed.

This is a fair point. A stealth mesmer fight is already a difficult fight.

And they buffed all aspects of mesmers hahahahahahahahahahaha

I do really feel bad for you guys. Anet just kittening hates thieves and have no clue what to do with them.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Jana.6831:

What is rendering shade?

ETA: You mean Rending shades – I don’t see a use for that actually – but I’d probably have to try it. In the end it only works against aegis, all other blocks aren’t boons and there’s a lot of them around. And well a lot of people have got more than 1,2 or 3 boons.

Yes that one, mind-hand-incoordination.

The way I see it is this;
- SR is for those who stays in shadows mainly using SA as a defensive trait line. (i.e. D/P users)
- RS is for those who go in stealth just to have access to the stealth attacks. These Thieves are using SA as an offensive trait line. (i.e. D/D users)

RS works on a lot of boons other than Aegis. You can steal might, regen, stab, etc. Aegis is the main reason why stealth attack doesn’t have any CD. The boon strip justifies the CD and at the same time nerfs D/P DA/CS/x builds.

The removal of VA is a big plus (too little too late but it’s still welcome) and adding the Venom CDR to Leeching trait is another plus. Bottom line, overall it’s a good update for hybrid builds.

I’m not saying you can’t use SA as an offensive trait line, but the dmg loss from losing another trait line like DA or CS or DrD for using this will not make you hard enough to beat the above average players of any profession.

Azukas.1426:

I do really feel bad for you guys. Anet just kittening hates thieves and have no clue what to do with them.

Ehhh… some of us will just roll with a different meta class/build. My Stance, Boon Duration, Durability Warrior is stupid OP. Expensive to run but has been doing very well in 2v1 duels. Course I could just dust off my condi spam stealth mesmer… wonder if a decent fire build is doable now.

I’ve been running Revenant for WvW, and the recent nerfs to Thief only highlight why. Before the SB nerf I was thief in WvW to help scout, tag enemies, and shut down healing abilities. But they nerfed SB’s poison field so I’m taken out of stealth if I hit anybody with the arrow when the field lands, they changed up condition removal to where it happens before the healing (making poison worthless due to all the condition cleansing going on), and now the NPCs do most of the scouting. There’s effectively nothing I can do as thief in WvW anymore to help our zergs or guild groups. :/

NuhDah.9812:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Jana.6831:

What is rendering shade?

ETA: You mean Rending shades – I don’t see a use for that actually – but I’d probably have to try it. In the end it only works against aegis, all other blocks aren’t boons and there’s a lot of them around. And well a lot of people have got more than 1,2 or 3 boons.

Yes that one, mind-hand-incoordination.

The way I see it is this;
- SR is for those who stays in shadows mainly using SA as a defensive trait line. (i.e. D/P users)
- RS is for those who go in stealth just to have access to the stealth attacks. These Thieves are using SA as an offensive trait line. (i.e. D/D users)

RS works on a lot of boons other than Aegis. You can steal might, regen, stab, etc. Aegis is the main reason why stealth attack doesn’t have any CD. The boon strip justifies the CD and at the same time nerfs D/P DA/CS/x builds.

The removal of VA is a big plus (too little too late but it’s still welcome) and adding the Venom CDR to Leeching trait is another plus. Bottom line, overall it’s a good update for hybrid builds.

I’m not saying you can’t use SA as an offensive trait line, but the dmg loss from losing another trait line like DA or CS or DrD for using this will not make you hard enough to beat the above average players of any profession.

The biggest problem against backstab are protection and aegis boons. Because of these two boons, it becomes necessary to abandon a defensive traitline to maximize our damage output. This patch gave us a way to spec for defensive traitline and deal with those pesky boons. A target with protection reduces our backstab damage by 33%…there’s not enough DA+CS trait you can take to offset that damage loss. The only real solution is to strip them of that boon, thus in my opinion, it is a damage increase.

On the opposite side of this is backstab is a useless skill for condition damage builds. With RS in SA, D/D and P/D has access to boon strip without relying on Bountiful Theft. Even a Trapper P/P (power and condition builds) will appreciate RS.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The CD on stealth attack is a good balance tweak against DA/CS/(Tr or DD) builds.

A balance against what?
DA/CS/T is naturally balanced by the plethora of passive defenses in the game.

In PvP, at least, power Thieves don’t need any nerfs.
They’ve already given up sustain for lethality, and not even that is enough to stand a good chance against other professions.

Where’s the Thief’s 8 seconds of immunity to power opponents? Warriors have it.

A Thief can’t even use a long-cooldown-based elite to remain in Stealth and do damaging attacks for 3 seconds while still remaining completely mortal.

Thieves can’t even enter Stealth for merely a second without giving up point-control to the enemy… even to clear a condition or minimally heal… without even attacking. That’s completely disabling an entire traitline while trying to hold/contest a point.

And this patch didn’t even touch the “perma-evade” condi- or “perma-Stealth” trapper Thieves… which is what most complaints are about.

Personally, this barely affects my build. I run Dagger/Pistol DA/CS/T. The ICD on Backstab won’t cause me much trouble, and I got a shared stun with a longer duration on Basilisk Venom (which never stacked anyway).

What angers me is that Anet has absolutely no idea what is happening with the Thief, and that is apparently clear with this patch. Nerfing things that are already ineffective. Leaving things untouched that need changes.

In PvP, the Thief has no identity. It doesn’t have the tools needed to be effective independently, nor does it have what is needed to be effective in a group. Even at its extremes, it is mediocre in every role. It is literally a vulture.

Kageseigi.2150:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The CD on stealth attack is a good balance tweak against DA/CS/(Tr or DD) builds.

A balance against what?
DA/CS/T is naturally balanced by the plethora of passive defenses in the game.

In PvP, at least, power Thieves don’t need any nerfs.
They’ve already given up sustain for lethality, and not even that is enough to stand a good chance against other professions.

Where’s the Thief’s 8 seconds of immunity to power opponents? Warriors have it.

A Thief can’t even use a long-cooldown-based elite to remain in Stealth and do damaging attacks for 3 seconds while still remaining completely mortal.

Thieves can’t even enter Stealth for merely a second without giving up point-control to the enemy… even to clear a condition or minimally heal… without even attacking. That’s completely disabling an entire traitline while trying to hold/contest a point.

And this patch didn’t even touch the “perma-evade” condi- or “perma-Stealth” trapper Thieves… which is what most complaints are about.

Personally, this barely affects my build. I run Dagger/Pistol DA/CS/T. The ICD on Backstab won’t cause me much trouble, and I got a shared stun with a longer duration on Basilisk Venom (which never stacked anyway).

What angers me is that Anet has absolutely no idea what is happening with the Thief, and that is apparently clear with this patch. Nerfing things that are already ineffective. Leaving things untouched that need changes.

In PvP, the Thief has no identity. It doesn’t have the tools needed to be effective independently, nor does it have what is needed to be effective in a group. Even at its extremes, it is mediocre in every role. It is literally a vulture.

If this barely affect your build while increasing the effectiveness of hybrid/condition builds, then it is a balanced patch. There’s no grounds for concern.

I’m not saying that this patch will suddenly make Thief more viable everywhere in the game, but the removal of VA and adding the venom CDR to leeching is a big step towards the right direction.

Sure they could have given condition damage to venoms without one while they are already balancing the venoms, but by simply not requiring to spec for VA is, I believe, good enough for now even if I have to use the same two venoms in order to deal damage. Surely they have a lot of work to do.

maybe we need to reroll mesmer full dire and play like: f1f2f3f4,Signet of Illusions,f1f2f3f4..so fun

Sir Vincent III.1286:

If this barely affect your build while increasing the effectiveness of hybrid/condition builds, then it is a balanced patch. There’s no grounds for concern.

The problem is that it did nothing to balance the power Thief relative to the other professions. It was and is inferior in PvP combat. In fact, the Staff build got nerfed. I don’t even have HoT, and I’m still upset about that.

I don’t understand the purpose of this patch for Thieves. They still cannot bunker a point. They still cannot win 1v1. They still cannot survive in team fights.

It nerfed Stealth Thieves. It nerfed Staff Thieves. It even nerfed Venom Thieves by removing Might, reducing range, and reducing applications.

Boon stealing would have been better accomplished with buffing Bountiful Theft or adding boon-theft to Steal as baseline.

Adding utility to Critical Strikes would have been welcome as well. It is virtually a 100% critical-damage/chance increase line. No other traitline is so one-dimensional. Why not have a trait that merely removes one application of a boon on a critical hit? Even if you have to add a cooldown to it. Or add additional damage for every boon that the target has.

There are so many things that could actually improve the Thief fairly. But this patch is a nerf to the Thief as a whole. Again, even when building in the extreme for a given role, the Thief isn’t great at anything. Yet this patch nerfs those builds in favor of giving a few buffs to mix-and-match builds that will still be inferior to dedicated builds.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

NuhDah.9812:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Jana.6831:

What is rendering shade?

ETA: You mean Rending shades – I don’t see a use for that actually – but I’d probably have to try it. In the end it only works against aegis, all other blocks aren’t boons and there’s a lot of them around. And well a lot of people have got more than 1,2 or 3 boons.

Yes that one, mind-hand-incoordination.

The way I see it is this;
- SR is for those who stays in shadows mainly using SA as a defensive trait line. (i.e. D/P users)
- RS is for those who go in stealth just to have access to the stealth attacks. These Thieves are using SA as an offensive trait line. (i.e. D/D users)

RS works on a lot of boons other than Aegis. You can steal might, regen, stab, etc. Aegis is the main reason why stealth attack doesn’t have any CD. The boon strip justifies the CD and at the same time nerfs D/P DA/CS/x builds.

The removal of VA is a big plus (too little too late but it’s still welcome) and adding the Venom CDR to Leeching trait is another plus. Bottom line, overall it’s a good update for hybrid builds.

I’m not saying you can’t use SA as an offensive trait line, but the dmg loss from losing another trait line like DA or CS or DrD for using this will not make you hard enough to beat the above average players of any profession.

The biggest problem against backstab are protection and aegis boons. Because of these two boons, it becomes necessary to abandon a defensive traitline to maximize our damage output. This patch gave us a way to spec for defensive traitline and deal with those pesky boons. A target with protection reduces our backstab damage by 33%…there’s not enough DA+CS trait you can take to offset that damage loss. The only real solution is to strip them of that boon, thus in my opinion, it is a damage increase.

On the opposite side of this is backstab is a useless skill for condition damage builds. With RS in SA, D/D and P/D has access to boon strip without relying on Bountiful Theft. Even a Trapper P/P (power and condition builds) will appreciate RS.

I see what you’re getting at, thanks for explaining. But yeah as you said thief usually relies on bountiful theft for the same purpose, but I guess with boon strip on backstab you could do it more efficiently. Even so, I’m still not sure if there would be enough dmg to be effective with SA… an probably, as you said the only thing would be to increase somehow the dmg on that trait line. Well, it’s sort of actually the only thing that it lacks and I’d be more then glad if this changes to try it again.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Kageseigi.2150:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The CD on stealth attack is a good balance tweak against DA/CS/(Tr or DD) builds.

A balance against what?
DA/CS/T is naturally balanced by the plethora of passive defenses in the game.

In PvP, at least, power Thieves don’t need any nerfs.
They’ve already given up sustain for lethality, and not even that is enough to stand a good chance against other professions.

Where’s the Thief’s 8 seconds of immunity to power opponents? Warriors have it.

A Thief can’t even use a long-cooldown-based elite to remain in Stealth and do damaging attacks for 3 seconds while still remaining completely mortal.

Thieves can’t even enter Stealth for merely a second without giving up point-control to the enemy… even to clear a condition or minimally heal… without even attacking. That’s completely disabling an entire traitline while trying to hold/contest a point.

And this patch didn’t even touch the “perma-evade” condi- or “perma-Stealth” trapper Thieves… which is what most complaints are about.

Personally, this barely affects my build. I run Dagger/Pistol DA/CS/T. The ICD on Backstab won’t cause me much trouble, and I got a shared stun with a longer duration on Basilisk Venom (which never stacked anyway).

What angers me is that Anet has absolutely no idea what is happening with the Thief, and that is apparently clear with this patch. Nerfing things that are already ineffective. Leaving things untouched that need changes.

In PvP, the Thief has no identity. It doesn’t have the tools needed to be effective independently, nor does it have what is needed to be effective in a group. Even at its extremes, it is mediocre in every role. It is literally a vulture.

If this barely affect your build while increasing the effectiveness of hybrid/condition builds, then it is a balanced patch. There’s no grounds for concern.

I’m not saying that this patch will suddenly make Thief more viable everywhere in the game, but the removal of VA and adding the venom CDR to leeching is a big step towards the right direction.

Sure they could have given condition damage to venoms without one while they are already balancing the venoms, but by simply not requiring to spec for VA is, I believe, good enough for now even if I have to use the same two venoms in order to deal damage. Surely they have a lot of work to do.

What this did was completely close the option of stealth to a DD/SB DA/SA/A hybrid thief. . . to have effective venom recharge, I have to give up a sure stealth from steal. . . meaning I have to carry SA for faster recharge and don’t even get the one other benefit the trait line offered. Not to mention the smaller share distance. If the devs were trying to help condi group roamers, they didn’t.

Guess I have to get used to using a DP for any sort of defense. . . yay

I didn’t think this change was going to be a big deal, but it’s actually super awful. I hopped on my D/D thief in WvW and it’s incredibly clunky now. Fighting D/P thieves was already a chore just because of the nature of the matchup, but now you can’t even fish for backstabs while they camp stealth. D/D is still functional, but the set is so bad in general that this change has ruined the only thing that was still good about it: smooth combos.

This only really affects d/d builds that are designed to burst someone from 100 – 0. Didn’t play much wvw last night but I didn’t see much of an issue as s/d at least.

Is this 1 second thingi supposed to affect a stealthed d/p thief that shadowshot and spam 1 for backstab, I don’t really get the idea behind this change except wanting thief players to position themselves properly for backstab.

We should all reroll cancer mesmer coz they got buffed like they needed it……./sarcasm

Kageseigi.2150:

The problem is that it did nothing to balance the power Thief relative to the other professions. It was and is inferior in PvP combat.~snip~

I don’t understand the purpose of this patch for Thieves. ~snip~

It even nerfed Venom Thieves by removing Might, reducing range, and reducing applications. ~snip~

Boon stealing would have been better accomplished with buffing Bountiful Theft or adding boon-theft to Steal as baseline.~snip~

This patch is obviously about obliterating VA. It’s not about nerfing power builds nor about nerfing Venom Thief, it’s about getting rid of VA so that we can have meaningful tweaks from upcoming patches. The might from venom is horrible anyway so losing it is not a deal breaker especially when I’m not being forced to spec for VA anymore. Also the reduced application is not a nerf only because the venoms are now auto-share which is a big buff to the venom Thief build. Rending Shade is a welcome addition rather than buffing BT because it gives a Thief an option not to take Trick for boon strip. In my hybrid build for example, I have no use for Trickery and this change to SA is a boon to my build.

Adding utility to Critical Strikes would have been welcome as well. ~snip~

That will not happen for obvious reasons. How can you strip a boon if your attack is blocked by Aegis? Having the Weakness debuff will make this an unwelcome change. A passive boon strip on stealth attack is the best solution because it grants boon strip even to non-crit builds like condition damage builds.

There are so many things that could actually improve the Thief fairly. But this patch is a nerf to the Thief as a whole.

This patch did very little to other builds as a whole. There maybe some required adjustments in PvP and WvW, but to other parts of the game, these changes are non-issue rather it is a big buff to condition damage builds.

NuhDah.9812:

I see what you’re getting at, thanks for explaining. But yeah as you said thief usually relies on bountiful theft for the same purpose, but I guess with boon strip on backstab you could do it more efficiently. ~snip~

Think of it this way. S/D now have 2 ways to strip boons; through FS/LS and through stealth attack. In addition, you don’t have to be using S/D to steal boons.

JonnyForgotten.4276:

What this did was completely close the option of stealth to a DD/SB DA/SA/A hybrid thief. . . to have effective venom recharge, I have to give up a sure stealth from steal. . . meaning I have to carry SA for faster recharge and don’t even get the one other benefit the trait line offered. Not to mention the smaller share distance. If the devs were trying to help condi group roamers, they didn’t.

Guess I have to get used to using a DP for any sort of defense. . . yay

That’s some exaggerations. If you’re already using venom, Leeching is an automatic pick over Hidden and in my opinion, Hidden can be so much better. Adding stealth to steal means that you can only have a sure stealth every 30s. In order to stealth more often, you’ll have to spec fo Trick…that’s 2 trait line that does nothing to improve your damage. 30s CD for sure stealth is horrible. Leeching Venoms for condition build and Shadow Protector for power build…Hidden Thief is mainly used by Troll builds.

yiksing.9432:

Is this 1 second thingi supposed to affect a stealthed d/p thief that shadowshot and spam 1 for backstab, I don’t really get the idea behind this change except wanting thief players to position themselves properly for backstab.

We should all reroll cancer mesmer coz they got buffed like they needed it……./sarcasm

position properly? how many tries before 3sec of stealth wears off do you think thief have? I can answer – 1. So you spend all of your initiative for stealth and then you have 1 try.

Rending Shade is the second answer to the boon spam that has become the norm since HoT dropped (the first being necro boon corrupt). But if they don’t do something to control how often you can do this, thieves won’t need buffs, they’d just steal everyone else’s.

Thing is, this is the opposite of what thief was desgined for since weapon skills should have no cooldown.

Jana.6831:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Dahkeus.8243:

Eh, it’s no big deal. I guess now you may have to pay attention when stealthing instead of just spamming backstab.

This.

Question is: Why do thieves have to spam backstab/why could they spam backstab before? The moment you can answer this will be the moment you do realize this was an unjustified nerf.

You have the question wrong: Before the nerf, why wouldn’t you just spam backstab without thinking? There was absolutely no reason not to since in best scenario it lands and in worst scenario it doesn’t and you try again immediately afterward while also likely removing an aegis or blind.

Now there’s actually a tactical moment of decision not only for the thief, but also for the person being attacked by the thief. The thief has to watch the target more closely and the target now actually has a reason to use a tactical aegis or AoE blind when they expect a stealth attack. It makes the game more complex in a good way.

DeceiverX.8361:

Dahkeus.8243:

Eh, it’s no big deal. I guess now you may have to pay attention when stealthing instead of just spamming backstab.

It is if you play D/D, where the only functional skill in stealth is backstab.

This is why the change is so stupid; it nerfs our weakest set even more than it was already underpowered.

I’ve given up.

D/D was crap before, so I don’t see why ANet should care about breaking something that was already broken. And with D/D, you’re more likely to get screwed over by a block/blind preventing your CnD, wasting initiative than a backstab that you can try again a second later without any resource loss.

Honestly, at this point what can you do? Arena net doesn’t want thieves to spam stealth skills, fine. We’ll just spam our auto attacks for now. Its not like unique class mechanics like “stealth skills” matter anyways right? Use we’ll land a back stab occasionally, but stealth will just be for stealth now. 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1.

Now I’ll sure show all those D/P thieves that can outstealth me.

Dahkeus.8243:

You have the question wrong: Before the nerf, why wouldn’t you just spam backstab without thinking? There was absolutely no reason not to since in best scenario it lands and in worst scenario it doesn’t and you try again immediately afterward while also likely removing an aegis or blind.

A failed BS didn’t remove blind or aegis as far as I know – you only could remove these boons/conditions unstealthed.
So: again: why did thieves have to try multiple times? We already answered that for you actually.

Dahkeus.8243:

D/D was crap before, so I don’t see why ANet should care about breaking something that was already broken. And with D/D, you’re more likely to get screwed over by a block/blind preventing your CnD, wasting initiative than a backstab that you can try again a second later without any resource loss.

The question is why they don’t care about holding their players. It can’t be that hard to balance a game. They had now 1,5 years to do so (from announcing the traitmerge til now).

But then again, some things should’ve never been brought into the game, like engineers group stealthing (I hate it because I can’t time my stealth) and like reveal skills – hard to remove them now.

Dahkeus.8243:

Jana.6831:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Dahkeus.8243:

Eh, it’s no big deal. I guess now you may have to pay attention when stealthing instead of just spamming backstab.

This.

Question is: Why do thieves have to spam backstab/why could they spam backstab before? The moment you can answer this will be the moment you do realize this was an unjustified nerf.

You have the question wrong: Before the nerf, why wouldn’t you just spam backstab without thinking? There was absolutely no reason not to since in best scenario it lands and in worst scenario it doesn’t and you try again immediately afterward while also likely removing an aegis or blind.

Now there’s actually a tactical moment of decision not only for the thief, but also for the person being attacked by the thief. The thief has to watch the target more closely and the target now actually has a reason to use a tactical aegis or AoE blind when they expect a stealth attack. It makes the game more complex in a good way.

DeceiverX.8361:

Dahkeus.8243:

Eh, it’s no big deal. I guess now you may have to pay attention when stealthing instead of just spamming backstab.

It is if you play D/D, where the only functional skill in stealth is backstab.

This is why the change is so stupid; it nerfs our weakest set even more than it was already underpowered.

I’ve given up.

D/D was crap before, so I don’t see why ANet should care about breaking something that was already broken. And with D/D, you’re more likely to get screwed over by a block/blind preventing your CnD, wasting initiative than a backstab that you can try again a second later without any resource loss.

I would agree with this ONLY in terms of thief v visible opponent, but as it stands right now there are 3 other classes who stealth as well. You could even argue DH’s for a fourth counting trapper runes. In these instances a thief being able to hunt the other stealthed opponent was an acquired skill that has been now removed. Being a mesmer I’m absolutely stoked with this change b/c I can now stealth w/out fear from the thief backstabbing me.

Now for sake of balance Anet should revert this change b/c let’s be honest the thief is no longer has the best access to stealth using meta builds.

Jana.6831:

Dahkeus.8243:

You have the question wrong: Before the nerf, why wouldn’t you just spam backstab without thinking? There was absolutely no reason not to since in best scenario it lands and in worst scenario it doesn’t and you try again immediately afterward while also likely removing an aegis or blind.

A failed BS didn’t remove blind or aegis as far as I know – you only could remove these boons/conditions unstealthed.

He was talking about when your BS was blocked by Aegis. It removes Aegis due to the block, but you don’t get Revealed because you didn’t do damage. If you miss with BS, meaning your target moved or evades, it removes blind, and since you didn’t do damage, no Revealed.

Truth being told: I’m done – I have no initative (haha) to argue anymore – it leads to nothing anyway.
At least I have 3 years worth of screenshots to remind me of the good times.

And btw: yes, you’re right with aegis and blind, but.. and there comes my first point in: I could explain the problem once more but I decide I’m just too tired.

ETA: Today, while I was trying to save a tower: CnD, back.. target moves, stealth gone, I’m dead.
I guess every thief knows what combat is like and how this cooldown hurts and why it hurts – enemy players aren’t pvp golems.

I’ve tested this last night with all the main-hand weapons and the stealth attack CD is negligible. I don’t even notice it at all.

The problem with CnD→BS is CnD not BS.

The funny thing to me is that this doesn’t even really effect D/P. I was playing D/P yesterday and didn’t even notice, but it absolutely crushed D/D. It doesn’t have any effect on S/D either. I mean, both of those sets have the mobility to get to a target whenever they want. And even if you miss your stealth skill, they have pressure with the other skills on their set- unlike D/D.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Dahkeus.8243:

Eh, it’s no big deal. I guess now you may have to pay attention when stealthing instead of just spamming backstab.

This.