Guild Wars 2

Because for the integrity of the game’s balance as a whole, stealth needs downtime.

Unless you’d prefer the more traditional approach, where even more professions and builds simply have abilities which can entirely negate stealth and therefore hard-counter such builds much more than currently?

Because removing stealth demands either nerfs to the thief’s stealth-based capabilities, or more counters. You’re never again getting pre-revealed thief or anything even close to it. It was brokenly overpowered to a point that even dire condi D/D 3spam doesn’t hold a candle to it. Quite frankly, I’d rather see fewer hard counters and more soft counters in the game, so Revealed is something you need to live with. If you want to unleash on your opponent, you eat the consequences of needing only three seconds’ worth of durability. That’s something very easy to achieve, particularly on Daredevil; if anything, it’s too easy for my tastes. The benefits of being a “specialist in Shadow Arts,” a claim made entirely by you and exclusively by you (nowhere is this in the profession description nor the feature of how thieves play mechanically) include the capacity to maintain permanent stealth uptime, subsequent large burst, teleports, and a plethora of other tools other professions do not have access to either innately or/nor through any kind of deep trait/skill/build investment.

You reveal yourself because in broad daylight you emerge to gore someone by shoving a dagger through their back and firing a ridiculously loud pistol. I’m sorry, but absolutely nothing about stealth attacks in almost every build except S/D, nor skills across really any kit that deal damage make any sense to enable the thief to remain in stealth.

Quite frankly, I think all pistol skill use should apply revealed. The only reason the guns aren’t as loud as they should be is because people would either be deaf as a consequence, or unable to hear anything else to to its relative silence. Add many thieves to a scenario firing guns, and you’re looking at something so loud the group’s location should be displayed on the minimap for all players to see.

I have to also say that this change completely destroys the fluidity of the class… It feels so clunky now…
If the reason was to counter against being able to hit aegis and stuff and not be revealed… Just make it that if you hit someone who used aegis that you become visible same for blind etc. I’d rather have that than an annoying cool down which completely ruins the feel…
If you get revealed at least you can continue your combo…
it also feels very clunky in pve (so at the very least remove the cd there)

jujoco.4853:

it also feels very clunky in pve (so at the very least remove the cd there)

You rarely get CC-ed or have to face blocks etc in PvE – removing the ICD there would lead to the illusion that everything is fine and PvP and WvW don’t need improvements.. Stuff like this just leads to way more confusion. Funniest thing is that I had one build for PvE, WvW and PvP before June 23th 2015 and it worked really fine – can’t do that anymore (and that’s also pretty confusing – thank god there’s gliders because I always forget that I have CiS only in wvw).
Also: it’s rather easy to get used to it in PvE – if there’s no lags and bugs.

Suppose you’re right:)
I also just had another idea to this, maybe make it a flip skill, so if you miss it and get 1s cool down flip it to auto attack for the duration?

Yeah well, our autoattack in stealth is a backstab

I really hope anet will nerf steal on the next update. I propose to anet that steal got to become a projectile. It’s a stupid change but eh nevermind we already have stupid nerfs one more won’t change anything. >_> I’m already disgusted.
Seriously, one second ICD yeah sure, we needed this we were too powerful on this meta… We were one of the most balanced class last season, (not OP not really useful but at least balanced in my opinion)
See you next season! (or never)

I find this mildly annoying. I don’t PvP much, so it isn’t as critical. But when I’m lagging it often looks like I should be hitting with an attack when the game sees me as slightly outside of melee range. It’s easy to miss attacks this way, and a 1s skill lockout under those circumstances seems unreasonable. What issue did this change address exactly? I’m confused as to why it was necessary.

AliamRationem.5172:

What issue did this change address exactly? I’m confused as to why it was necessary.

We got VS as a baseline (so PvE thieves have a better chance to get in a PvE raid party) (because SA doesn’t offer a damage boost anymore as they took that out last June – would be stupid to use SA in a raid) – and because every thief now takes it and because it’s so OP, we had to be nerfed. So the thief specialists flipped through this forum and found 3 complaints in the past year: “Condi D/D thief”, “Rune of the Trapper” and 2 Guards complaining about us not having a cooldown while in stealth “you can spam backstab”.

ETA: Yeah it’s really that easy to destroy the fun of a few hundreds – just post a random complaint on the forums – chances are it will be in game in no time. And yes, anet this is a shame.

its a joke when u cant even fix ur server lag problem after 4 years.
3 out 5 times I was directly right on top of the enemy stacked on him and hit 1 and nothing happen then had to wait for another sec to do anything.

Apologies on my behalf,

This thread was created by me, yet my responses are scarce. I appreciate the immense feedback, and time that everyone has taken to keep this thread alive. The constructive feedback, and brainstorming is something that Anet loves seeing, opposed to the bashing, and condescending manners. I have not gotten around to reading everyone’s responses, and I am getting messages as to why I am not responding in this thread. I will take sometime to read, and will hopefully share some of my feedback, momentarily.

Thank you again for keeping this alive!

Jana.6831:

So, my bug, you guys know about it. I couldn’t land any CnD, my chance to hit with CnD and steal was at about 0-50%
I haven’t really been in wvw lately but my hit chance should be back to ~70% even with all the blocks – I might test this further but you don’t really need steal to land it, although it’s a higher chance, granted.
I agree on your last post btw.

What you are likely experiencing is one of two things:

Either your muscle memory is too early and your casting CnD to early or your experiencing client side lag. I’d say its likely the former.

I’ll add my two cents to the discussion here. I will preface that I am biased towards some of DeceiverX’s thoughts, as I am a guildie of his, and do frequently roam with him.

The whole problem with the ICD change is that backstab, tatical strike, hook strike and even shortbows surpise shot all became completely unreliable with the amount of passive effects going around. Blinds, blocks, taunts, invulns all take away the reward for the setup thats required to enter stealth, position, and then land the hit on the target.

The idea of adding shadow step to cloak and dagger just takes the challenge of setting up CnD out of the equation. It also makes offhand pistol and dagger to similar. While this change would be welcome for say on d/d it would create balance issues on s/d and p/d which both have really good position skills already. The change still does not fix anything with actually landing the stealth attack. All it really does is make steal and infiltrator signet redundant.

The blind on CnD idea would provide defense upon using the skill. Basically your asking blinding powder to be added to CnD. We already have tones of active defenses, be damage reduction while in stealth, dodges galore, or damage reduction via weakness/dodge damage reduction buff. We don’t need this. This idea does not solve either of the issues of landing CnD or landing a stealth attack. It just band aids failed CnD attempts.

Unblockable in the form its mentioned (making CnD its self unblockable) I feel is kinda the right direction with cloak and dagger, but it does do very high damage, and could be spammed. It would create a scenario where you could ignore blocks and stack vuln on targets. You could end up with offhand dagger becoming much like unload but in melee form. The only way this would fairly work, is to drastically lower the damage. Again, this does not fix the issue of being able to land a stealth attack.

Honestly my own thoughts are we need have a mechanic of some sort that make the stealth attack reliable to land now that we cannot spam them and only have one chance to land. We used to have this in the form of bv. However with the changes to make it only one stun it makes landing the stealth attack no longer reliable. I mean you can do it, but your really pressed for time to BV during stealth and make the attack. Also d/d does not have this option, as you need to bv to gain access to stealth.

I think the only viable and fair way of going about this is to make the next attack after CnD unblockable. It would allow reliably to set up a stealth attack combo with CnD+BV again. My only issue with this it does not help or fix staff/sb consistency with stealth attacks. It technically would allow you to spam CnD but a huge cost to gain 2 unblockable hits at most.

Another thought is to make stealth attacks unblockable as a base or trait, but honestly I feel like that is asking for way to much. Maybe this would be the right avenue if anet does go through with the bugfixes to hearseeker(being able to leap finish multiple times in black powder by adjusting the camera is considered a bug) in the near future. Then I could see this kind of change be balanced.

Edit: I think I am done editing.

DeceiverX.8361:

Because for the integrity of the game’s balance as a whole, stealth needs downtime.

The side effect of Anet not managing Reveal better has been nerfing everything around it. I think the original intent was to move stealth to a more combat active roll rather than something players sat in for long periods of time. If that is the case, allowing stealth stacking was a huge F-up.

They did try to increase the Reveal time but rolled it back fast. I think they would need to overhaul the stealth weapon sets quite a bit to increase Revealed time significantly.

IMO I would rather have a 4s Reveal than a 1s ICD.

Straegen.2938:

IMO I would rather have a 4s Reveal than a 1s ICD.

I rather have 3s ICD that only affect stealth attacks instead of 4s Revealed that imprisons the whole trait line and one of the Thief’s main defensive mechanic. Why would anyone favor Revealed is beyond me.

1sec stealth attack CD must be removed to ensure smooth play of Thief class. If this CD is punishment for abusing rending shade skill, Anet should find how to fix it. No CD on stealth attacks. Still if Daredevils really happy about this CD when I suggest leaving it for Daredevils. They have loads of evade and some block skills. But leave Thieves alone.

Talking about reveal, I hate continuous reveal. After 1 reveal thieves should have immunity to it at least few seconds.

Eval.2371:

What you are likely experiencing is one of two things:

Either your muscle memory is too early and your casting CnD to early or your experiencing client side lag. I’d say its likely the former.

Nope, it was a bug/bad programming since it’s gone and I didn’t get younger the past 1,5 years.
I think you can believe me that I’m a pro D/D thief.

ETA:

Eval.2371:

The blind on CnD idea would provide defense upon using the skill. Basically your asking blinding powder to be added to CnD. We already have tones of active defenses, be damage reduction while in stealth, dodges galore, or damage reduction via weakness/dodge damage reduction buff. We don’t need this. This idea does not solve either of the issues of landing CnD or landing a stealth attack. It just band aids failed CnD attempts.

The blind only applies when CnD hits, not when it misses and it’s nice to have against all the AoE damage. Unfortunately Anet didn’t know what to do with SA Grandmaster traits, so CiS was moved from adept to grandmaster and a D/D thief now can’t take CiS and SRej – Deceiver, this guy needs some thief lessons.

Jana.6831:

Nope, it was a bug/bad programming since it’s gone and I didn’t get younger the past 1,5 years.
I think you can believe me that I’m a pro D/D thief.

I am always cynical & critical of everyones self proclaimed skill. Sorry if my statement came across as hostile.

Jana.6831:

Eval.2371:

The blind on CnD idea would provide defense upon using the skill. Basically your asking blinding powder to be added to CnD. We already have tones of active defenses, be damage reduction while in stealth, dodges galore, or damage reduction via weakness/dodge damage reduction buff. We don’t need this. This idea does not solve either of the issues of landing CnD or landing a stealth attack. It just band aids failed CnD attempts.

The blind only applies when CnD hits, not when it misses and it’s nice to have against all the AoE damage. Unfortunately Anet didn’t know what to do with SA Grandmaster traits, so CiS was moved from adept to grandmaster and a D/D thief now can’t take CiS and SRej – Deceiver, this guy needs some thief lessons.

Fair enough, personally I think the fact that CiS and SRej compete is a good thing. They are both solid traits. Anyways as I stated before hand. Even if the change to make CiS effects base on CnD it still does not change the issue that the thread is about. Which is stealth attacks.

Eval.2371:

I am always cynical & critical of everyones self proclaimed skill. Sorry if my statement came across as hostile.

Not hostile but arrogant as you assumed that I don’t know how to play, that’s why I self proclaimed that I in fact do know how to play – If I didn’t, my CnD would still miss each and everything. Btw: I’m not only using it with steal so the “precast you used it to early” doesn’t apply to your theory of what my problem was.

Eval.2371:

Fair enough, personally I think the fact that CiS and SRej compete is a good thing. They are both solid traits.

Yeah but a D/P thief doesn’t need CiS so it made them stronger and this game more imbalanced.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I rather have 3s ICD that only affect stealth attacks instead of 4s Revealed that imprisons the whole trait line and one of the Thief’s main defensive mechanic. Why would anyone favor Revealed is beyond me.

The 1s ICD was a fairly stong nerf to Backstab. It would be reasonable if the thief could still use their AA while stealthed but missing in stealth now often wastes a lot of init for little to no damage.

Going from 3s to 4s on Reveal while a nerf is a marginal adjustment for any decent player. That said I am not proposing they make this change. What would be better is to simply roll back the ICD or at least cut it in half.

I really don’t get what you guys mean with “I want to be able to AA when in stealth and being hit by the ICD” how should that work?

Jana.6831:

I really don’t get what you guys mean with “I want to be able to AA when in stealth and being hit by the ICD” how should that work?

One easy way would be to change Backstab from a fixed progression into a different key. Another would be to change the progression each time it misses and comes off cool down. I am sure there are other decent ideas as well.

Locking down the AA on the Dagger line though is tough since it is a primary damager these days. A full rotation does Backstab damage and hits more targets. Prior to the ICD there was no AA penalty for missing while stealthed… now Backstab and the AA go on full cooldown. Ouch.

Getting a full AA chain in is not that easy, you have mostly 2 chances to get your BS in and are stealthed while trying – the ICD sucks, yes, but in my opinion it’s better than being automatically revealed and going for AA.
That could be the next nerf, btw: “If you are hit by the stealth attack cooldown you’re automatically revealed” – there you have your AA chain

Jana.6831:

Getting a full AA chain in is not that easy, you have mostly 2 chances to get your BS in and are stealthed while trying – the ICD sucks, yes, but in my opinion it’s better than being automatically revealed and going for AA.
That could be the next nerf, btw: “If you are hit by the stealth attack cooldown you’re automatically revealed” – there you have your AA chain

By putting AA on cooldown, players have fewer choices while stealthed. If on ICD theives have to burn init to resume fighting. One or two seconds doesn’t sound like much, but those seconds not pressuring an enemy can be crucial particularly against bunker classes.

I immediately felt the difference fighting D/P across all my builds. On my Stealth Condi Mesmer along with the Torch buff, D/P went from being able to directly counter to being mostly fodder.

Straegen.2938:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I rather have 3s ICD that only affect stealth attacks instead of 4s Revealed that imprisons the whole trait line and one of the Thief’s main defensive mechanic. Why would anyone favor Revealed is beyond me.

The 1s ICD was a fairly stong nerf to Backstab. It would be reasonable if the thief could still use their AA while stealthed but missing in stealth now often wastes a lot of init for little to no damage.

Going from 3s to 4s on Reveal while a nerf is a marginal adjustment for any decent player. That said I am not proposing they make this change. What would be better is to simply roll back the ICD or at least cut it in half.

Don’t you see the irony in your post? While you oppose the 1s ICD, you favor a 3s-4s ICD — yes, folks, great news, Revealed is stealth attack ICD with a fancy name.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Don’t you see the irony in your post? While you oppose the 1s ICD, you favor a 3s-4s ICD — yes, folks, great news, Revealed is stealth attack ICD with a fancy name.

I said I would rather have a spammable Backstab every 4s over a non-spammable Backstab every 3s. I am not advocating that change but I would rather have it over a fixed ICD on the AA.

The current ICD neutered D/P thieves against stealthers. My stealth Druid, Scrapper and Mesmer are all tearing up D/P far easier now.

If they keep the icd they should make all stealth attacks unblockable, with Anets current “balancing” philosophy it is the only logical choice.

Straegen.2938:

By putting AA on cooldown, players have fewer choices while stealthed. If on ICD theives have to burn init to resume fighting. One or two seconds doesn’t sound like much, but those seconds not pressuring an enemy can be crucial particularly against bunker classes.

I immediately felt the difference fighting D/P across all my builds. On my Stealth Condi Mesmer along with the Torch buff, D/P went from being able to directly counter to being mostly fodder.

I know that 1 s is (too) long. You have a point but I’d like to keep my 2 chances – I have actually no idea how to solve this mess – on the one hand it seems as if my chances against other thieves are better, but then again I haven’t been able to hit them for 1,5 years. And I guess no matter what we say: Anet really needs a thief pro to sort all this mess out – we’re whiny kids to them anyway.

Eval.2371:

Jana.6831:

So, my bug, you guys know about it. I couldn’t land any CnD, my chance to hit with CnD and steal was at about 0-50%
I haven’t really been in wvw lately but my hit chance should be back to ~70% even with all the blocks – I might test this further but you don’t really need steal to land it, although it’s a higher chance, granted.
I agree on your last post btw.

What you are likely experiencing is one of two things:

Either your muscle memory is too early and your casting CnD to early or your experiencing client side lag. I’d say its likely the former.

---

I’ll add my two cents to the discussion here. I will preface that I am biased towards some of DeceiverX’s thoughts, as I am a guildie of his, and do frequently roam with him.

The whole problem with the ICD change is that backstab, tatical strike, hook strike and even shortbows surpise shot all became completely unreliable with the amount of passive effects going around. Blinds, blocks, taunts, invulns all take away the reward for the setup thats required to enter stealth, position, and then land the hit on the target.

The idea of adding shadow step to cloak and dagger just takes the challenge of setting up CnD out of the equation. It also makes offhand pistol and dagger to similar. While this change would be welcome for say on d/d it would create balance issues on s/d and p/d which both have really good position skills already. The change still does not fix anything with actually landing the stealth attack. All it really does is make steal and infiltrator signet redundant.

The blind on CnD idea would provide defense upon using the skill. Basically your asking blinding powder to be added to CnD. We already have tones of active defenses, be damage reduction while in stealth, dodges galore, or damage reduction via weakness/dodge damage reduction buff. We don’t need this. This idea does not solve either of the issues of landing CnD or landing a stealth attack. It just band aids failed CnD attempts.

Unblockable in the form its mentioned (making CnD its self unblockable) I feel is kinda the right direction with cloak and dagger, but it does do very high damage, and could be spammed. It would create a scenario where you could ignore blocks and stack vuln on targets. You could end up with offhand dagger becoming much like unload but in melee form. The only way this would fairly work, is to drastically lower the damage. Again, this does not fix the issue of being able to land a stealth attack.

Honestly my own thoughts are we need have a mechanic of some sort that make the stealth attack reliable to land now that we cannot spam them and only have one chance to land. We used to have this in the form of bv. However with the changes to make it only one stun it makes landing the stealth attack no longer reliable. I mean you can do it, but your really pressed for time to BV during stealth and make the attack. Also d/d does not have this option, as you need to bv to gain access to stealth.

I think the only viable and fair way of going about this is to make the next attack after CnD unblockable. It would allow reliably to set up a stealth attack combo with CnD+BV again. My only issue with this it does not help or fix staff/sb consistency with stealth attacks. It technically would allow you to spam CnD but a huge cost to gain 2 unblockable hits at most.

Another thought is to make stealth attacks unblockable as a base or trait, but honestly I feel like that is asking for way to much. Maybe this would be the right avenue if anet does go through with the bugfixes to hearseeker(being able to leap finish multiple times in black powder by adjusting the camera is considered a bug) in the near future. Then I could see this kind of change be balanced.

Edit: I think I am done editing.

Unblockable stealth attacks as compensation for the stealth attack ICD really doesn’t solve the core of the problem on D/D, though, which as you said is inconsistency. Not to mention D/P would still be the primary beneficiary since they have reliable stealth and would also have reliable gap close, blind, and backstab.

If they want to make stealth attacks reliable, they should do so by buffing HK to make them act this way. Instantaneous viability of Crit Strikes as a serious contender with DA and HK being made a half-decent trait in the world of power-creeped precision/crit availability on marauder gear.

Ultimately, the core of the problem is that the stealth attack ICD cannot really be justified without massively affecting other weapons for the negative so long as all the free passives and ridiculous damage mitigation exists. There’s just no way to balance the thief in respects to the rest of HoT content. The game is too power-creeped to actually do anything meaningful with the profession anymore with respects to game-wide balance. If you’re not x/P, you’re effectively done playing the thief; ANet can’t offer support to a profession which is doomed regardless of what it does to the profession, and likely is unwilling to make the game properly balanced out of fear of mass retaliation since pretty much the only people left in the rapidly-falling figures are those playing faceroll cheese. No point in screwing over the remaining paying customers in hopes of redeeming the since-departed ones.

Straegen.2938:

DeceiverX.8361:

Because for the integrity of the game’s balance as a whole, stealth needs downtime.

The side effect of Anet not managing Reveal better has been nerfing everything around it. I think the original intent was to move stealth to a more combat active roll rather than something players sat in for long periods of time. If that is the case, allowing stealth stacking was a huge F-up.

They did try to increase the Reveal time but rolled it back fast. I think they would need to overhaul the stealth weapon sets quite a bit to increase Revealed time significantly.

IMO I would rather have a 4s Reveal than a 1s ICD.

The intent was to make stealth less of an overpowered combat ability. Before revealed, D/D and D/P DA/CS/SA power thief near launch were originally the best PvP/WvW loadouts in the game. They had infinite stealth uptime and could deal damage permanently from stealth, via either HS spamming through BP with the old SA configuration, or infinite CnD chaining. D/D was seen as much better, since it had 20% more damage on CnD than now and permanent max initiative, all while maintaining permanent 12-14 might from SA and huge scaling damage from CS/DA.

And there was zero way to counter it except spam AoE’s, which given the old Rejuv’s healing and crazy damage the builds did, wasn’t really doable.

So they got rid of the insane power of the builds by introducing revealed, since stealth thus would be made into a primarily defensive and tactical mechanic, used as a dependency for setting up powerful stealth skills.

Even with the dismissal of the builds that were run during this time, not having revealed would break the game, particularly the scrapper, since it’d give the engineer ridiculous stealth access with no revealed downtime, and the thief would be functionally quite similar and still very broken for how low-risk it would be to play.

Honestly, I just don’t understand why they added the 1s ICD at a time nobody cared to complain about it… years after people claimed it was an issue.

DeceiverX.8361:

Unblockable stealth attacks as compensation for the stealth attack ICD really doesn’t solve the core of the problem on D/D, though, which as you said is inconsistency. Not to mention D/P would still be the primary beneficiary since they have reliable stealth and would also have reliable gap close, blind, and backstab.

There is more to stealth attacks than backstab tho.The ICD change just makes every weapon experince D/D problem of trying to land one of its key skills and being unable to so due to passive effects. D/D’s individual problems and D/P powercreep need to be addressed separately. There is nothing you can do to fix backstab that won’t affect d/p unless you attach the fix to dagger OH skills. Which is something I mentioned above, but again that does nothing for staff, sb or sword which all now share that same consistency issue.

DeceiverX.8361:

If they want to make stealth attacks reliable, they should do so by buffing HK to make them act this way. Instantaneous viability of Crit Strikes as a serious contender with DA and HK being made a half-decent trait in the world of power-creeped precision/crit availability on marauder gear.

Totally agree that this is an attractive route. I also thought rendering shade might be a possible candidate for a rework. Make the boonsteal effect have an ICD and the passive be the unblockable stealth attacks, rather than the misc damage reduction no one asked for (if you want damage reduction CiS is a much better option).

DeceiverX.8361:

There’s just no way to balance the thief in respects to the rest of HoT content. The game is too power-creeped to actually do anything meaningful with the profession anymore with respects to game-wide balance. If you’re not x/P, you’re effectively done playing the thief; ANet can’t offer support to a profession which is doomed regardless of what it does to the profession, and likely is unwilling to make the game properly balanced out of fear of mass retaliation since pretty much the only people left in the rapidly-falling figures are those playing faceroll cheese.

I do feel your outlook is a little cynical and biased. I do think there is viable play with d/d and s/d. Just not as an instant all in or nothing build. Balance shouldn’t allow those kinds of builds as they are abuse cases. All that said, I also do think it takes considerable more effort to play either of those sets and get results and are not a good weapon set for equal skill level fights.

This might be a silly question, but why didn’t they just put a 1 s ICD on Rending Shade rather than mess with the fluidity of the thieves’ kit?

Jortakk.6792:

This might be a silly question, but why didn’t they just put a 1 s ICD on Rending Shade rather than mess with the fluidity of the thieves’ kit?

They’re planning to remove Revealed, that’s why. At least, that’s how it looks to me.

Hey would never remove revealed then everyone would complain of thief op and engi op even more attacking while sitting in Stealth gyro

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Hey would never remove revealed then everyone would complain of thief op and engi op even more attacking while sitting in Stealth gyro

I shudder when I think of a scrapper w/out reveal

Azukas.1426:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Hey would never remove revealed then everyone would complain of thief op and engi op even more attacking while sitting in Stealth gyro

I shudder when I think of a scrapper w/out reveal

My thoughts precisely on why I know for a fact they won’t do it.

Stealth Gyro is an abomination, a very stupid idea. It should only detect stealth but not apply stealth. Should be renamed and redesigned as Anti-stealth Gyro.

Everything from HoT except power reaper is an abomination, daredevil included.

DeceiverX.8361:

Everything from HoT except power reaper is an abomination, daredevil included.

I hate the fact that you’re making a statement that I have nothing to say but to agree.

I agree, they nerf thiefs ability and d/d is completly usless now in wvw and pvp, but then they have dragonhunters whos traps insta kill any thief and that hasnt got nerfed yet?

anet please think about things before you do them.

SixxxZ.4317:

I agree, they nerf thiefs ability and d/d is completly usless now in wvw and pvp, but then they have dragonhunters whos traps insta kill any thief and that hasnt got nerfed yet?

anet please think about things before you do them.

Oh they do – they don’t want us to play this class.

SixxxZ.4317:

I agree, they nerf thiefs ability and d/d is completly usless now in wvw and pvp, but then they have dragonhunters whos traps insta kill any thief and that hasnt got nerfed yet?

anet please think about things before you do them.

Look into D/D Acro, Trickery, Daredevil power thief. It’s legit.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

DeceiverX.8361:

Everything from HoT except power reaper is an abomination, daredevil included.

I hate the fact that you’re making a statement that I have nothing to say but to agree.

Are you really so callous as to think you should inherently disagree with everything I say because we disagree on other subjects?

For some reason I’m not losing against any thief (all D/P and staff).
Partly likely because they always stand in front of me waiting for the red black powder circle – thanks guys!!

Anyway: The reason why I switched back to D/D all those years ago was that it’s faster and I think it should excell at that.
My idea would be: reduce the initative cost for CnD and add blind to it and probably raise the vulnerability but I have no idea how that would favour signet builds – as usual I’m the emotional thief “girly” wheras Deceiver has got the numbers.
That would be to buff X/D against X/P builds – not really against other classes.

They’re currently working on combat (yes, anet, I notice even small changes) – so the ICD on stealth attacks hurts twice as much. I would like them to scrap the ICD for now or ever because the combat programming really is buggy – no matter what mode and it’s annoying in all modes. Without the ICD the bugs didn’t matter that much – now they do.

I can’t tell if I’m against that ICD or not. D/P offers enough as a set to go around a cooldown on backstab. I never spammed the stealth attack on other sets ( I stopped using d/d a while ago ).

However, I find rending shade quite nice and it fits in the game looking at all the boons going around. On my mesmer I get around 200 boons applied to myself each pvp game for instance.

I don’t think rending shade is too OP. I would even argue that without a 1s CD it would be a good counter to blocks and invulnerability in a really interesting way. Since you you can redo stealth attacks on block and invulns, it litteraly sucks the boons out of the target.

The drawback of invulnerability, is that your boons can be removed by thieves. isn’t it nice? It gives us a unique mechanic and could mitigate the use of invulns/blocks through a mind game. “Is it worth using invulns now and loose my boons, or is it better to keep my boons ?” That sort of thinking.

Yes it would remove aegis, but seriously compare the amount of aegis and the amount of other invulns / block and you will see it’s not a problem.

It might also be OP keeping the boon steal, I’m not against a simple boon strip on rending shade.

Wargameur.6950:

I can’t tell if I’m against that ICD or not. D/P offers enough as a set to go around a cooldown on backstab. I never spammed the stealth attack on other sets ( I stopped using d/d a while ago ).

However, I find rending shade quite nice and it fits in the game looking at all the boons going around. On my mesmer I get around 200 boons applied to myself each pvp game for instance.

I don’t think rending shade is too OP. I would even argue that without a 1s CD it would be a good counter to blocks and invulnerability in a really interesting way. Since you you can redo stealth attacks on block and invulns, it litteraly sucks the boons out of the target.

The drawback of invulnerability, is that your boons can be removed by thieves. isn’t it nice? It gives us a unique mechanic and could mitigate the use of invulns/blocks through a mind game. “Is it worth using invulns now and loose my boons, or is it better to keep my boons ?” That sort of thinking.

Yes it would remove aegis, but seriously compare the amount of aegis and the amount of other invulns / block and you will see it’s not a problem.

It might also be OP keeping the boon steal, I’m not against a simple boon strip on rending shade.

Rending shades has to land for it to rip the boon, so hitting a block or invuln does not rip a boon, and with it having to land the Hit you get the revealed debuff which is a 3 sec CD already built in.

I thought they implemented it like Bountiful Theft. If I’m right the boon rip happens even if they block ( not sure about that one).

But I still like the idea of multiple boon stripping if they block.

Wargameur.6950:

I thought they implemented it like Bountiful Theft. If I’m right the boon rip happens even if they block ( not sure about that one).

But I still like the idea of multiple boon stripping if they block.

No it has to land for it to Steal the boons.

I hate this cooldown! It feels so UNNATURAL AND STRANGE. I simply can not do anything for one full second feels bad man.Wonder if they add inability to autoatack to all the other classes while in stelath. I would like to have normal autoatack after sneak atack fails.

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

DeceiverX.8361:

Everything from HoT except power reaper is an abomination, daredevil included.

I hate the fact that you’re making a statement that I have nothing to say but to agree.

Are you really so callous as to think you should inherently disagree with everything I say because we disagree on other subjects?

Obviously I made that post because I don’t think that I should be inherently in disagreement with you on everything. Yet, here we are, in a disagreement again.

Azukas.1426:

SixxxZ.4317:

I agree, they nerf thiefs ability and d/d is completly usless now in wvw and pvp, but then they have dragonhunters whos traps insta kill any thief and that hasnt got nerfed yet?

anet please think about things before you do them.

Look into D/D Acro, Trickery, Daredevil power thief. It’s legit.

So something like this? http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoYVlsMAAhynYpTwyJw/ELUF1c1/9lfXCEANgXG8BlAA-TZRBABP8AAivMgGHCAAOCAXt/

Im curious as to why though

No, azukas talks about condi as to him/her D/D is a typical condi set and was never meant to be power OR EVEN IF WE HAVE TO GO WITH THE FLOW AND STOP COMPLAINING ALREADY

Jana.6831:

No, azukas talks about condi as to him/her D/D is a typical condi set and was never meant to be power OR EVEN IF WE HAVE TO GO WITH THE FLOW AND STOP COMPLAINING ALREADY

XD whats wrong with power d/d? It used to be playable before the nerf.