Guild Wars 2

So I had an epiphany…

Why the hell are we the only class that, in order to access the new and shiny mechanic, has to get it out of the Grand Master trait?!

So lets take some examples first:
- Spec into Berserker and you get: Berserk; Primal Skills; Torch; Primal Burst Skills.
- Spec into Reaper and you get: Wails; Greatsword; New Death’s Shroud with a full 1-5 new abilities on it.

Seems about right, take the spec, get the extras.

So heres thief:
- Spec into Daredevil and you get: Staff(if you even wanna play it anyway); +50 endurance; Physical Skills.

Our REAL flavor is in the GM traits, so we basically lose the chance to have actual GM traits.

Don’t get me wrong, I love it so far, but couldnt it have been made better?

Heres my suggestion:
- F1 (Steal) and F2 (Pocket) remain the same.
- F3, F4 and F5 become 3 diference “stances” that enable the type of dodge you want to perform.
Pick f3 and every dodge throws the cripple daggers; pick f4 and every dodge is a dash that grants swiftess; pick f5 and your dodge turns into a leap finisher that does landing damage.

I’m not being greedy as to suggest actual “F”-based class mechanic right? I mean god kitten it ANet the Daredevil looks amazing but at the same time half-kittened as kitten.

/rant over

Maybe because the entire Elite Specialisation has been BALANCED around having dodges that can do frontstab damage or put down lots of conditions or remove chill/cripple and gain loads of Swiftness? “OR” being the key word.

Being able to swap what kind of dodge we have on the fly would be broken. It’s just right the way it is.

Maybe go for an F3 you can switch out of combat – like revenant legends?

Gray.9041:

Maybe go for an F3 you can switch out of combat – like revenant legends?

This also works, and would be more balanced.

Either way my point is valid.

No need to suck up Auesis, ANet doesnt care if you do :^)
What I mean by this is that the “Entire Elite Specialisation can still be BALANCED” around having dodges while also maintaining the proposed F-based “stances” and at the same time have GM traits.

That’s right, any disagreement is fanboyism. Way to invalidate your discussion.

From what I’m seeing, extra GM-level traits alongside these dodges would be stupid.

Good idea OP I like it.

Auesis.7301:

Being able to swap what kind of dodge we have on the fly would be broken.

^ This is also true, but can easily be balanced. Since all of the dodges are multifaceted, simply take away a property or two for baseline f3-f5. Add cooldown after leaving a dodge type. For GM trait, you still spec into a dodge to bring out its potential, and remove the cooldown on swapping into it.

Actually, our specialization is the only one that does feel like a specialization, because you have to commit to a playstyle : condi-dodge, attack-dodge or safer-dodge.

It doesn’t really change much to have it through GM, since to become a Daredevil you need to get that traitline anyway.

I won’t talk in the name of the devs, but in our position, we would be more prone to a heavy nerf if they’ve decided to add another new mechanism on top of what we got. And what we got is already pretty powerful.

Now if you’re talking about quality of life addition like the f2 key, I would agree but then it should affect all trait sets in general (trait/gear quickset mechanism), since basically it would mean changing the last branch of the DD traitline.

Trait lines are what you use to really define your own personal play style choices. There’s no real sense in having all 3 available at the same time. You have the power/offensive one, the condi one, and the more defensive one. almost all the trait lines in the game have this method and the DD grandmasters are no different.

The real mechanic change is the extra endurance bar. I think a lot of people are underestimating just how good that can be by itself, let alone working alongside all the traits we have now that proc on evades/dodges.

I think it’s good you want to have all 3 available on the fly. It means they did a good job designing them for competing with each other as game play choices.

As far as missing out on additional F skills, I really don’t mind. I don’t really care where game play mechanics come from be it traits, F skills, utility types, added endurance cap, etc. As long as it offers decent build options and synergies between skills, I’m good. Sucks it took so long for thief but I’m glad it finally has.

Tonikor.5637:

So I had an epiphany…

Why the hell are we the only class that, in order to access the new and shiny mechanic, has to get it out of the Grand Master trait?!

So lets take some examples first:
- Spec into Berserker and you get: Berserk; Primal Skills; Torch; Primal Burst Skills.
- Spec into Reaper and you get: Wails; Greatsword; New Death’s Shroud with a full 1-5 new abilities on it.

Seems about right, take the spec, get the extras.

So heres thief:
- Spec into Daredevil and you get: Staff(if you even wanna play it anyway); +50 endurance; Physical Skills.

Our REAL flavor is in the GM traits, so we basically lose the chance to have actual GM traits.

Don’t get me wrong, I love it so far, but couldnt it have been made better?

Heres my suggestion:
- F1 (Steal) and F2 (Pocket) remain the same.
- F3, F4 and F5 become 3 diference “stances” that enable the type of dodge you want to perform.
Pick f3 and every dodge throws the cripple daggers; pick f4 and every dodge is a dash that grants swiftess; pick f5 and your dodge turns into a leap finisher that does landing damage.

I’m not being greedy as to suggest actual “F”-based class mechanic right? I mean god kitten it ANet the Daredevil looks amazing but at the same time half-kittened as kitten.

/rant over

Man… you took my idea!!
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Daredevil-GM-Traits-should-be-the-Prof-Mechs

I fully support having the elite use it’s prof. mech. as a F ability… We laid it out there so it is clearly possible and able to be balanced. Lets make it happen. It’s a Daredevil… call this mechanic “Stunts”!

Haha VocalThought, wasnt on purpose I swear.

But the fact that different people are noticing this means theres something wrong there.

I like that idea by the way, make it something like this:
- Daredevil elite specialisation’s new mechanic – Stunts; when you choose the Daredevil specialisation you unlock an f3 skill that specializes your dodge on a special new dodge that fulfills a specific role (choosing it requires you to be out of combat). In addition, the Daredevil gets an extra endurance bar.

Seems pretty straight-forward; it’s not overpowered; it’s not asking too much. Why do we have to “sacrifice” 3 perfect opportunities for GM traits to get specialisation mechanic when other classes dont???

YOUNGaz.5690:

…I think it’s good you want to have all 3 available on the fly…

You really don’t get it do you? The idea is to have them in “f” keys instead of occupying GM trait spots, like EVERY OTHER CLASS is getting.
“F” keys by definition DEFINE a class, its something others dont have, its the flavor.
And it would be as much “on the fly” as it would be opening your trait menu and manually changing it LEL

To OP:
While I understand what you’re saying, I don’t think your argument is justified as the specialization is balanced around letting you choose your playstyle. By forcing you to pick one, you have to really think about what you want in your build. All three of these dodge effects are very powerful and Anet likely chose to make them Grandmasters as giving us even more will probably make Thief an uncatchable, nuking menace. I mean…. remove a condition on dodge AND heal for 450 every second… Seriously, that’s ridiculously strong. We also get a 3rd dodge, recover a dodge on steal, and can deal 10% more damage after a dodge, apply tons of weakness, or reduce the cooldown on our Physicals which are also extremely powerful. Personally, I like how much stuff they gave Daredevil. It looks strong but not OP which is always a good thing.

Rain.9213:

To OP:
While I understand what you’re saying, I don’t think your argument is justified as the specialization is balanced around letting you choose your playstyle. By forcing you to pick one, you have to really think about what you want in your build. All three of these dodge effects are very powerful and Anet likely chose to make them Grandmasters as giving us even more will probably make Thief an uncatchable, nuking menace. I mean…. remove a condition on dodge AND heal for 450 every second… Seriously, that’s ridiculously strong. We also get a 3rd dodge, recover a dodge on steal, and can deal 10% more damage after a dodge, apply tons of weakness, or reduce the cooldown on our Physicals which are also extremely powerful. Personally, I like how much stuff they gave Daredevil. It looks strong but not OP which is always a good thing.

Looks good on paper. I can do it too.

S/X, I mean…remove condition on IR and heal while in stealth or with assassin reward… Seriously, that’s ridiculously strong. We also get an attack that evade and follows up with a hard hitting attack and steal boon, or reduce the cooldown on steal and we all know steal is extremely powerful.

Basically, you just listed a bunch of things together without giving any context as to how that build would work in a gamemode or how a DD would enhence the thief ranking in a gamemode.

Rangers – 1500 range, a pet! Omg looks strong.

Here’s the deal. I don’t think DD is weak at all. So giving DD access to the current grandmaster trait in their first minor, AND giving them another set of grandmaster traits to chose can only be done with some nerf somewhere. The most likely is a nerf on the dodge effects themselves which I don’t want to see because those dodges are fun. Don’t make them weaker just for the sake of some symmetry between the elite spec traits.

@stof: it’s not about symmetry, it’s about what’s fair and this design choice is questionable. The sole fact that the daredevil GMs are so incredibly powerful they don’t even look like traits is exactly because they are not supposed to.

Take a minute or two and go look at the other elite spec reveals, notice how every each and one of them got a new mechanic on top of GMs.
- Mesmer: new mechanic; GMs have nothing to do with it.
- Warrior: A LOT of new mechanics; two GMs work with the mechanic, one doesn’t.
- Elementalist: a new mechanic working on each attunement differently; one GM works with it.
- Necromancer: a whole new Shroud and two GMs work with it.
- Guardian: a whole Virtue rework and empowerment; one GM affects all, one affects only one virtue.

And lastly thief: 50 endurance, 3 GMs affect dodges and each fulfill a different role.

I mean, it’s nice and all, but the design choice behind this is questionable, our class mechanic if you wanna call it that, existed in the acrobatics trait line for almost 3 years…. Laughable.

Tonikor.5637:

YOUNGaz.5690:

…I think it’s good you want to have all 3 available on the fly…

You really don’t get it do you? The idea is to have them in “f” keys instead of occupying GM trait spots, like EVERY OTHER CLASS is getting.
“F” keys by definition DEFINE a class, its something others dont have, its the flavor.
And it would be as much “on the fly” as it would be opening your trait menu and manually changing it LEL

Yes. F skills define a class.
But traits define a build. I kind of like having the choices locked into grandmaster traits.
Just look at how kittening strong those dodge effects are, man. If they were baseline, you could be 120% sure, they’d be nerfed to the ground.
Also, thief has always been the class with a more mundane approach to things. I kind of like the fact, thief doesn’t get shoehorned into the “extra button” train or into “tack a complicated effect on top of an already existing profession mechanic button.”
Really, thief is all about clear-cut, efficient skills without a lot of fluff to them. I kind of like the mundane utility that comes with loading the specialization mechanic into the dodge bar. You don’t want to spoil this simplistic approach by needlessly adding an abundance of buttons that do nothing on their own. That’s not, how thief works.

naphack.9346:

…I kind of like having the choices locked into grandmaster traits…
…If they were baseline…

First: if you take the specialization you will be taking the grandmasters anyway, that’s how traits work now, and the grandmaster will still define your build since there’s always 3 choices kek.
Second: Steal is baseline, taking a spec to get something is not being baseline (you don’t know what baseline is)

At the risk of repeating myself, the new dodges are GM power level. You are basically asking to choose two GM traits in a single trait line. This won’t happen without heavy nerfs on the dodges themselves, or by giving us GM traits that barely do nothing.

I like the dodges as they are and I don’t want ANet to change them. So I don’t like your suggestion at all.

Tonikor.5637:

naphack.9346:

…I kind of like having the choices locked into grandmaster traits…
…If they were baseline…

First: if you take the specialization you will be taking the grandmasters anyway, that’s how traits work now, and the grandmaster will still define your build since there’s always 3 choices kek.
Second: Steal is baseline, taking a spec to get something is not being baseline (you don’t know what baseline is)

Baseline for the daredevil elite specialization. I thought we were talking about the daredevil here. If we weren’t, well, then disregard my comment and let me sign off from this thread because if we weren’t discussing the daredevil elite spec here, I have no clue what the hell else we were discussing.

stof.9341:

At the risk of repeating myself, the new dodges are GM power level. You are basically asking to choose two GM traits in a single trait line. This won’t happen without heavy nerfs on the dodges themselves, or by giving us GM traits that barely do nothing.

I like the dodges as they are and I don’t want ANet to change them. So I don’t like your suggestion at all.

What I gather from this is that youre 100% clueless about the other classes, their elite specs and new grandmaster traits.

And note that there are NO OTHER grandmasters in the game on the same powerlevel as the DD ones. So you’re also clueless about the game. Just leave the thread like the other guy :^)

I don’t think that would be viable. Too much f….ing. It would be confusing for many players. I can also see why are some angry thinking anet is selling nerfed abilities for $$ even tho I don’t agree with it. Or care.

Also I actually like almost everything about Daredevil and think with few changes its the perfect thing thieves need, which leads to giant problem.

Daredevil makes in my mind every weapon set viable in pvp and wvw. Pistol offhand gets stealth with evade leap making s/p and p/p viable. D/P gets buffed even tho you could still use current meta. Power d/d gets better but 3 skill needs a revamp… More on that now. S/d makes comeback of the year and condi p/d, d/d get much more viable.

Condi d/d… Every time someone mentions this poo slight aneurysm strucks me. Your build is based around spamming 3…poo poo poo. Personally I would like to see 3 skill changed to something similar to revenant staff 5 with less cc to it just to give some sustain to power d/d since its really high skill cap weapon set. Mentioning condi d/d obviously triggers me. What’s even worse they called it acrobatic style on poi while showing off Lotus Training. Spamming 3, acrobatic style. Really? Ugh. Once they revamp 3 I’ll write good riddance ode to it. Even worst are people defending that poo… Back to topic.

Daredevil make viable even celestial builds because of Impacting Disruption coupled with Pressure Striking.

It all sound incredible great so what’s the problem? Without Daredevil we have 1 viable build, d/P, and 2 shody ones s/d, p/d.

Without Daredevil thief is in sad state. Our core trait lines are lacking. Many of our utilitys are lacking. New players and/or ones without hot might think thief is wasted potential/class.

Bojoo.7819:

It all sound incredible great so what’s the problem? Without Daredevil we have 1 viable build, d/P, and 2 shody ones s/d, p/d.

It’s a problem for some people because they want everything without realising how good they’ve got it already. The GM choices are BEYOND GM-worthy.

Professions don’t REQUIRE changes to Fx. I guarantee you that Engineer will have no changes to its Toolbelt mechanic, either.

this is as ridiculous as necromancers asking to have BOTH death shroud and reapers shroud at the same time. both have their advantages and disadvantages. having both would be insane.

and the everlasting stupid argument: BUT ITS A GRANDMASTER!!!!!1111... in the new trait system there is no difference between adept and grandmasters. you have to pick the entire traitline doesnt matter what. grandmasters are most of the time the strongest trait only because of the old trait system. its just that you have to put equally strong traits at the same tier to create a meaningful choice in choosing traits.

-------------------------------------------
also completely offtopic i love how necros are saying daredevil is a hardcounter to reaper and thiefs are saying reaper is a hardcounter to daredevil xD

Goldenrevolver.4371:

this is as ridiculous as necromancers asking to have BOTH death shroud and reapers shroud at the same time. both have their advantages and disadvantages. having both would be insane.

and the everlasting stupid argument: BUT ITS A GRANDMASTER!!!!!1111… in the new trait system there is no difference between adept and grandmasters. you have to pick the entire traitline doesnt matter what. grandmasters are most of the time the strongest trait only because of the old trait system. its just that you have to put equally strong traits at the same tier to create a meaningful choice in choosing traits.

---

also completely offtopic i love how necros are saying daredevil is a hardcounter to reaper and thiefs are saying reaper is a hardcounter to daredevil xD

How is a minor adept and major GM the same thing? One is locked in and the other is selectable….

Gabriell.4856:

How is a minor (…) and major (…) the same thing? One is locked in and the other is selectable….

great you took my words completely out of context.
-you can compare major traits on the same tier
-you can compare minor traits on all tiers
-you can switch tiers without changing anything

because you have to select one of each tier anyways.

I’m not sure why we would need to have each dodge in a separate F3, I mean that would make things more complicated and a bit overpowered. I mean the point of the GM trait is to change up your playstyle, but doing this would just give you everything. And we really don’t need different GM traits, most all of the DD traits are strong already. We really don’t need more. GM traits are fine as is.

exactly alchemyst

Goldenrevolver.4371:

Gabriell.4856:

How is a minor (…) and major (…) the same thing? One is locked in and the other is selectable….

great you took my words completely out of context.
-you can compare major traits on the same tier
-you can compare minor traits on all tiers
-you can switch tiers without changing anything

because you have to select one of each tier anyways.

Exactly! So why is our new mechanic gated behind a major while others get it in their minor? That is the point the OP is trying to make. You can think his suggestion is over the top or what not but it doesnt change the fact that it is gated.

Gabriell.4856:

Exactly! So why is our new mechanic gated behind a major while others get it in their minor? That is the point the OP is trying to make. You can think his suggestion is over the top or what not but it doesnt change the fact that it is gated.

if you really want to be so nitpicky you want to lose the mechanic steal and you want to lose the 50 extra endurance but you want 3 different dodges to choose out of combat and 3 new traits? because reaper, berserker, tempest and dragonhunter get their core mechanic replaced not added. only chronomancer gets something added without a loss of something (technically berserker is between both as they have access their normal bursts but also lose access to them in berserk mode).

i must admit just adding the opion is a cool idea but with the strength of the rest of the specilisation traits and the WAY TOO EARLY release date anet set themselves i doubt they could balance it. not to speak of tempest, forge and dryad but thats a whole other story.

Auesis.7301:

Maybe because the entire Elite Specialisation has been BALANCED around having dodges that can do frontstab damage or put down lots of conditions or remove chill/cripple and gain loads of Swiftness? “OR” being the key word.

Being able to swap what kind of dodge we have on the fly would be broken. It’s just right the way it is.

No, that would not be broken, its just a matter of COOLDOWNS.
Each of the, under my concept called “Styles” (just an other word for practically Stances) could have an cooldown time after activation, similar to attunements, in which you can’t switch.
under my concept would get all other styles that aren#t used at the moment get in cooldown, whenver you switch you sttyle, so that you ca’t always have the style you need/want on demand – ypou would have to wait first, until the cooldowns have run out, before you could switch from Style A to either Style B or C.
By changign from A to B would get A and C then into Cooldown.

give the mechanic like 30 second cooldowns and everythign is fine … and our Elite Specialization would have actually like all other specializations an unique Gameplay Mechanic, that works on its own, while having also unique GM Traits

Heres a thread with my final own balance concept where I decribe, how it could look like:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Daredevil-GM-Traits-should-be-the-Prof-Mechs/first#post5432013

Goldenrevolver.4371:

if you really want to be so nitpicky you want to lose the mechanic steal and you want to lose the 50 extra endurance but you want 3 different dodges to choose out of combat and 3 new traits? because reaper, berserker, tempest and dragonhunter get their core mechanic replaced not added. only chronomancer gets something added without a loss of something (technically berserker is between both as they have access their normal bursts but also lose access to them in berserk mode).

Berserker might not be the best example. You technically don’t HAVE to go berserk while you have the trait line equipped, and if you don’t things will continue to function as they always have. Going berserk will give you BETTER versions of burst skills that are still mostly the same. While going berserk makes your adrenaline bar one stock instead of three, everything functions as if you have three in this state.

Similar goes for Tempest, as overloading is something that extends the functionality of their core profession mechanic rather than replacing it. Like with Berserker, you can still have the trait line equipped without being forced to use the extension—just don’t push the button of an attunement you’re already in.

Having the DH or Reaper trait lines equipped straight up replaces parts of their core mechanic (DH’s Super Virtues, Reaper’s Reaper Form) so you have more of a point there.

Orpheal.8263:

Auesis.7301:

Maybe because the entire Elite Specialisation has been BALANCED around having dodges that can do frontstab damage or put down lots of conditions or remove chill/cripple and gain loads of Swiftness? “OR” being the key word.

Being able to swap what kind of dodge we have on the fly would be broken. It’s just right the way it is.

No, that would not be broken, its just a matter of COOLDOWNS.

In the scope of the current discussion which is to give all dodges in the minor trait and getting another GM trait, yes it’d be broken. Or at least much much stronger than the current DD. Cooldowns on changing the dodge don’t matter since currently you cannot change them at all in fact. So even if you stick to a single dodge and never change, you are still improved by one GM trait for free with 0 drawbacks. Aka, it’d be much stronger by one GM trait worth of strength.

Now, your suggestions are a complete rework of the class anyway and aren’t concerned by what I just said. But a rework that will never be used anyway unless you somehow get a job at ANet in the next day or so, and even so :p The best hope you have is to get that in another elite spec but that will probably not happen cause it’ll be too similar to an existing spec

I actually don’t see the problem. I would understand if we didn’t get the 3rd dodge roll, but I feel the 3rd dodge roll is a large enough change in the mechanics of the Daredevil to warrant having the GM traits as changing the trait of the dodge roll.

Orpheal.8263:

Auesis.7301:

Maybe because the entire Elite Specialisation has been BALANCED around having dodges that can do frontstab damage or put down lots of conditions or remove chill/cripple and gain loads of Swiftness? “OR” being the key word.

Being able to swap what kind of dodge we have on the fly would be broken. It’s just right the way it is.

No, that would not be broken, its just a matter of COOLDOWNS.
Each of the, under my concept called “Styles” (just an other word for practically Stances) could have an cooldown time after activation, similar to attunements, in which you can’t switch.
under my concept would get all other styles that aren#t used at the moment get in cooldown, whenver you switch you sttyle, so that you ca’t always have the style you need/want on demand – ypou would have to wait first, until the cooldowns have run out, before you could switch from Style A to either Style B or C.
By changign from A to B would get A and C then into Cooldown.

give the mechanic like 30 second cooldowns and everythign is fine … and our Elite Specialization would have actually like all other specializations an unique Gameplay Mechanic, that works on its own, while having also unique GM Traits

Heres a thread with my final own balance concept where I decribe, how it could look like:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Daredevil-GM-Traits-should-be-the-Prof-Mechs/first#post5432013

Yeah, bring in more actives with cooldowns. Exactly what thief needed to remain unique… Oh wait.
Bringing the daredevil more in line with other classes is not necessarily a good thing. The more similar classes are, the more likely it is that one of them will end up being the superior class and nothing else being played.

Ok, so if they didn’t have this as a GM trait, you wouldn’t have a choice on which kind of dodge you get.

Idk about you, but I’m pretty psyched that we have probably THE most flexible elite specialization announced so far.

We get a unique mechanic that isn’t just designed around a power staff evade build. This specialization also:

- Gives stealth to S/P and P/P builds
– Offers amazing synergy to caltrops/condi builds
– Fits well with literally every weapon set available to thieves
– Is well suited for both PvP and PvE

So yea, Reapers may not have to choose one of their benefits from a GM trait, but they also have an elite spec highly dedicated to boosting a melee playstyle when the necro is otherwise focused on mostly non-melee abilities.

Time to get over it. The possibilities with this spec are greater than what we’ve ever had.

I continue to feel that Daredevil, as an elite specialization, is very promising. It’s underlying core Thief issues (and how they’ll interact with DD) that I’m more worried about.

Daredevils are going to be really annoying to play against: Between d/d 3, lotus training, withdraw, hard to catch, roll for initiative, signet of agility, runes of the adventurer, and sigil of energy (and stamina in pve). There will hardly be a time where this profession will not be evading.

To the OP, to be ‘FAIR’ you probably couldn’t keep f1 and f2. You would have to replace them with the dodges. Then it would be ‘FAIR’. Elite specs are meant to be different, not stronger. The mechanic isn’t the same, but if its balanced and useful so what? How many useless or bad trait lines are in this game between all the professions? If the devs can make it work, by all means let it work!

Mightymealworm.8409:

To the OP, to be ‘FAIR’ you probably couldn’t keep f1 and f2. You would have to replace them with the dodges. Then it would be ‘FAIR’. Elite specs are meant to be different, not stronger. The mechanic isn’t the same, but if its balanced and useful so what? How many useless or bad trait lines are in this game between all the professions? If the devs can make it work, by all means let it work!

firstly, I’d be pretty happy with that tbh – except it’d invalidate all the traits which operate on steal.

secondly, Chronomancer gets Continuum split without losing the other shatter skills. and Herald gets Facet of Nature without losing a legend. several elite specs get straight upgrades to the F skills

Gray.9041:

Mightymealworm.8409:

To the OP, to be ‘FAIR’ you probably couldn’t keep f1 and f2. You would have to replace them with the dodges. Then it would be ‘FAIR’. Elite specs are meant to be different, not stronger. The mechanic isn’t the same, but if its balanced and useful so what? How many useless or bad trait lines are in this game between all the professions? If the devs can make it work, by all means let it work!

firstly, I’d be pretty happy with that tbh – except it’d invalidate all the traits which operate on steal.

secondly, Chronomancer gets Continuum split without losing the other shatter skills. and Herald gets Facet of Nature without losing a legend. several elite specs get straight upgrades to the F skills

But how would you then keep Daredevil from simply overpowering Thief? I don’t know much about Chrono/Mesmer, but Necro/Reaper simply exchanges shroud skills. Same for Guard, different active Virtue effects. Ele attunement overload might be additional vs replacement but it comes with some big drawbacks. Warrior… well we won’t talk about warrior… I’m sure there is (or at least will be) a drawback there somewhere. Its not like thieves are giving up a skill going daredevil, just gaining awesome new dodges. No other class is getting this so far as we know yet (and I know a few who would trade). I say wait and see how it turns out before complaining. At least this elite sounds promising.

I fall into the crowd that feels like our class mechanic wasn’t really changed.

This suggestion sounds great. All the people crying it sounds OP to allow us to change dodges… If it’s allowed out of combat or with a high cool down like 60s+, how is that any different from opening the trait window and changing it? It would just be a QoL addition if it was only allowed out of combat.

I do agree giving us other grandmasters and these would be op. But the option to change dodges on the fly OUT OF COMBAT would be rather nice. That way we’re not getting all of them, as we’d be locked into the one we choose in combat.

I love the idea of zipping around the map dashing then when I want to fight, since generally thieves pick their fights anyway, I could switch to a more suitable dodge. If i’m dashing about and I get stealth attacked then it’s my own fault for switching to that dodge and that would leave me at a disadvantage. So we’d still need to be careful choosing.

Shinjiko.1352:

I fall into the crowd that feels like our class mechanic wasn’t really changed.

This suggestion sounds great. All the people crying it sounds OP to allow us to change dodges… If it’s allowed out of combat or with a high cool down like 60s+, how is that any different from opening the trait window and changing it? It would just be a QoL addition if it was only allowed out of combat.

I do agree giving us other grandmasters and these would be op. But the option to change dodges on the fly OUT OF COMBAT would be rather nice. That way we’re not getting all of them, as we’d be locked into the one we choose in combat.

I love the idea of zipping around the map dashing then when I want to fight, since generally thieves pick their fights anyway, I could switch to a more suitable dodge. If i’m dashing about and I get stealth attacked then it’s my own fault for switching to that dodge and that would leave me at a disadvantage. So we’d still need to be careful choosing.

So you want to be able to choose the dodge out of combat but don’t want new GMs because (sensibly) you know it would be OP.

What if I told you that you could just open the trait window and click the other dodge GM while out of combat?

You already know that it seems, but I mean…it’s maybe one click more? It’s directly attached to GMs, putting it on the UI as a new button would never happen.

Mightymealworm.8409:

To the OP, to be ‘FAIR’ you probably couldn’t keep f1 and f2. You would have to replace them with the dodges. Then it would be ‘FAIR’. Elite specs are meant to be different, not stronger. The mechanic isn’t the same, but if its balanced and useful so what? How many useless or bad trait lines are in this game between all the professions? If the devs can make it work, by all means let it work!

Such rubbish.

Does the Ele loses the ability to attunement swap? Attunement Swap + Overload
Does the Mesmer loses shatters/clones? F1-4 + F5
Does the Warrior loses burst skills? F1 + F2
Does the Guardian loses their Virtues and passives? F1-3
Does the Revenant loses all their heroes? 4 selectable Heros to 5
Does the Necro loses Life Force?
NO!!!

Then why the kitten would you think it would be “FAIR” to replace steal with the new dodge? Most if not all of the Elites make the classes stronger in terms of adding an ADDITIONAL mechanic to the class…So please, do tell us what is “fair.”

I’m not implying that I agree with the OP suggestion. The option to select difference dodges at anytime may cause a balancing problem. I would suggest them adding an F3 and let use select the dodge and it locks while in combat and rearrange/give new GM traits. I would love it if they put Escapist’s Abso in the GM tier.

The new F3 /Salt.

I’m happy with the new Trait line, weapon abilities, and utilities as of now. We cannot really make assumptions until Friday.

I don’t get why people are ranting. Daredevil looks fantastic.
The main feature this spec gets is a third dodge. That’s the addition we get without losing anything (and it’s a quite powerful especially considering the new traits). And while the specialization into condi/power/sustain within the traitline might look more vague for those other elite specs, it’s still there. Just like it is in the Daredevil line – which happens to be the clearest when it comes to that. Those dodges are meant to be seen as the things they are: Traits. I think the solution for Daredevils is actually quite elegant, especially because it’s such a clear decision to make.

@ Gabriell
I think Mightymealworms point was that while other classes are indeed getting additional F buttons – because it is their main feature for their elite spec – they aren’t getting any further “mechanical” changes, like the +50 endurance. Three different dodge rolls that can be condi/power/defense on top of all the other on-dodge/endurance traits AND +50 endurance would be way over the top imo. Some people suggested out-of-combat swap, but then again, that’s exactly what GMs do.

@ naphack:
You completely missed the point for why Cooldowns would be useful here as a method to balance the thief gfor having the gameplay mechanic of beign able to switch between the different Dodge Styles oO The Styles in itself are it, that make the Thief Elite-Specialization unique, not the balance mechanic, that woudl be need to make it possible for the player to switch in combat between the three Dodge Styles to make it also possible to free up the 3 GM Traits from the Dodge Styles that should be an integrated part of the Elite-Specialization and not something, that you have only, when using a specific GM trait, wehat would limit you permanently in having only 1 Dodge Style, unless you exchange outside of combat your GM Trait to an other Dodge Style.

Its stupid class design to be able to switch between Dodge Styles only outside of combat, when it would be a much better, way more interesting ,alot more fun making and massively more unpredictable gameplay design for the combat tactics of a thief that is specialized for those Dodge Styles, if we could switch between the styles in combat also, but naturally not like every few seconds, but for game balance sake nwith a long cooldown of at least 30 seconds, what woudl be same as long as liek the base cooldown of steal without traits to reduce it…

Take a chill pill, maybe then you realize, that my intention isn’t it to make the Thief less unique, but in fact more effective in what he does and when he does it, without being pigeonholed into a specific dodge style for practically the whole combat, when it would be alot better for a Thief to be able to change the Dodge Styles also in combat to be able to react better on changing situations.

But if you have a better idea how to balance the multi in combat exchangeable dodge styles, without a steal similar long cooldown mechanism for the game balance, then feel free to speak up and enlighten all of us .

I don’t see it at all your reasoning, where in hell the Elite-Specialization would be similar to any other class at all, only because it should have with its Dodge styles more usage of the F-Buttons…

Only because a Daredevil should have accesses also to F1 to F4 skilsl with Steal and the 3 Dodge Styles makes this class not at all anyhow similar to any other class that has also access to multiple F-Butto Skills, like the Elementalist/Tempest…

The Thief Specialization won’t have any Weapon Skill Exchanges on F-Button Press
The Thief Specialization won’t have chargeable Skills on the F-Buttons for extra AoE Effects
The Thief Specialization won’t have with its F-Button Skills changign Skilsl that react on which kind of Utilities you use
The Thief Specialization won’t have F-Button Skills with supportive Side Effects for Allies
The Thief Specialization won’t have F-Button Skills with that you can control an A.I Ally
The Thief Specialization won’t have F-Button Skills with that you can cause various damaging AoE Effects

So I absolutely don’t know, from where you got that kind of impression, that exchangeable Dodge Styles of F-Buttons would make our class any more similar to any of the other classes.
Its just nonsense and the only reason for that kind of argument I see here is only, just the basic fear, that thieves with exchangeable dodge styles would be to overpowered…

But thats exactly why there should be a limit to it in form of a cooldown time to prevent thieves from permanently switching between dodge styles every few seconds, just like also an elementalist has to wait on its attunements, until they recharged, before you can switch back to en element, from which you switched away like 30 seconds ago… just with the difference here, that all other dodge styles get into cooldown the moment you switch and not just only the style from which you switch away to make sure, that you can use always in combat only 1 Dodge Style for the moment as long you have to wait on the cooldown, before you can change in combat to an other dodge style.

however,vonly because elementalists7tempelsts also have cooldown times on their F-skills, doesn’t make them “similar”, because, the whole skill mechanic is stil lcompletely somethign totally different….

Similar would it be, if Thieves would receive on F2-4 Kits, with that you would receive some kind of Weapon Skil lchanging “Ninja Weapons” that replace your weapon skill lbar and they would run onto cooldown after usage, that would be similar, because then woudl share the thief and the elementalist the same skill mechanic, just with different weapon skills exchanging out for the weapon skills.

But its not similar, because Eles get from their skill mechanic completely different weapon skills, while thieves would get only completely different working dodges with various changing side effects.

Its exactly what the thief E-spec needs to make the whole gameplay design make look same as unique and improved over the vanilla main profession, like all other E-Specs got that kind of treatment.
Thieves got nothing, they still have under their current design only their same lame randomous effect skill steal that is partwise based on which class you steal on, while gettign their changed gameplay mechanics hidden behind a GM trait wall that limits them to get at any given time only 1 out of 3 possible changed dodges, making us again totally a super predictable class, when you can’t exchange the dodge style while beign in combat. Its just total uncomfortable, that you are forced to do that always outside of combat under the current design of the daredevil.

So let me get this straight. Before we have even tried in the beta you are unhappy with it? I am going to through this out there now, because I think this kind of mentality is ridiculous. If you are unhappy about the elite spec, before even trying it, you are never going to like it, so you may as well move on to something else.

Rin.1046:

So let me get this straight. Before we have even tried in the beta you are unhappy with it? I am going to through this out there now, because I think this kind of mentality is ridiculous. If you are unhappy about the elite spec, before even trying it, you are never going to like it, so you may as well move on to something else.

You totally missed the point. Suggest you go back and reread the thread before posting.