Guild Wars 2

So much responses in favour of stealth nerf, but not a single proper argument why this would be a good thing and why they should implement it.

Making thieves have limited stealth makes them just less special. Thieves can’t rely on pumping out boons or taking few good hits. Stealth is our mechanic that separates us from the rest of the professions (for now), and stealth is in a lot of situations our only defensive mechanism. Necro has 40k HP and nobody is crying to gut that mechanic. Rangers can hit from 1500 range and nobody is crying for range nerfs (plus pets). Elementalists can cycle through the whole apocalypse of skills to throw at you. All other classes have something special, so why would thief be less special and have its stealth nerfed so much that other classes could potentially even outstealth us? We’re not best in dealing damage. We got the short stick when it comes to health. Our range is worst in game. So what are we excelling at so much that only mechanic we are strong in needs a proper gutting?

Calling for this nerf because you people hope for buffs in other aspects is… I don’t know. Stupidity? Fool’s hope? Are you people here first time? You never been through Anet’s update? I’m really trying hard to see what is the real reason here for this topic. Goes so far that it looks like an elaborate troll.

And another thing, if a D/P thief stacks 18-20 seconds of stealth – what is that thief left with? Zero initiative. 10+ seconds of stealth doesn’t come for free and there is a big setback for it. Not to mention that if thief goes for stealth stacking it’s usually to run. So I guess, after all, I was wrong in the second paragraph: we are best at something, and that is running around waiting for out small window of chance while the big boys do the job.

thaniretouni.4762:

D/P is not confusing, I think you’re revealing why you need more experience to be offering an educated opinion. Most stealth during a duel (D/P 5+2) will last 3s, so you know when the Backstab is coming. Shadow Shot is highly telegraphed. Heartseeker, when it’s used offensively, is also telegraphed. Headshot and Steal are probably the only unpredictable parts of the build. As for D/P hard countering, or even countering Warr at all, idk about that. I’d be happy to duel you on my Warr gimmick build, I beat End Orphan yesterday in a 1v1 with the same build. Dueling thieves is difficult but they have a very limited number of skills, especially considering that they’ll rarely switch weapon sets, unlike every other profession with weapon swap. So you should be able to predict what they’re gonna do, the issue is whether your reflexes are fast enough.

I know all these mate, but can be confusing to new players or the less skilled ones. Other classes are far more predictable and easier to fight against compared to thief. Even when something is telegraphed like Shadow shot it does not mean that you have the endurance or whatever to avoid it (think of small GvG where people always target thief as much as possible).

These need to happen anyways, aside from SB velocity buff. Idk why you tie buffing Scorpion Wire to nerfing Stealth, Scorpion Wire is not useful rn and should be buffed regardless. And not that I wouldn’t like a SB buff, but SB is useful without it. People that can’t use it offensively are either fatfingering or don’t have good enough timing.

I did not say that SB cannot be used, ofc it can be. The thing is that its AA is not only kind of weak(mainly against 1 target ofc), it is also too slow. At least in WvW is clunky. Regarding the rest of potential buffs, I said that I could happily accept the nerfs to stealth if that makes the devs feel sorry for the thief class and maybe attempt to finally fix the rest of the problems.

This is what should happen. I don’t mean that from a morality standpoint, just that if there’s no skill floor then why will people keep coming back to the game? New players should die easily, if they don’t that means the game is laughably uncomplicated and easy. Rather, I think that Anet should make an incentives-based mentoring system for new players. I do it for free whenever I come across a thief that clearly needs help, teaching combos and directing them to Sindrener vids, but this would be more commonplace if people had an incentive to help others. I strongly resist making the class easier for noobs, they need to L2P, and they should get help in doing so.

Ofc this should happen for new players, but they shouldn’t be punished so much more
when playing thief compared to other classes. For example, even a rly new player who had like 10 hours of playing the game can take a necro and at least have a reasonable ability to help the team or at least feel that he can do something. Whereas, with thief is much harder imo (I had some friends (as well as other new guild members) who joined the game recently and I saw this clearly).

Completely agree. Vault is useful for PvE mobs, but we didn’t get much. Thieves are too squishy to fight champs, but that’s where the rewards are at. Anet is not fair to thieves when it comes to PvE.

Yeah, Vault is great but I dont like offering only raw dmg to a team as a player and if that is the case at least we need some boosts so we can be at the very top of the foodchain without any doubt.

ps: Please, do not be too aggressive in your responses. Telling me smth in this way, that I am unable to offer any “educative opinion” is kinda harsh, but well…

Jana.6831:

bluri.2653:

Reducing the amount of stealth u can stack would hurt a lot in pvp, and that would require anet to buff thieves into the amount where they can take equal or 1v1 fights.

That is our point. That’s why we “demand our own profession to be nerfed”. While thief suffered as a whole in June last year the only set that has been indirectly buffed was D/P. The current stealth cap is at 18s if I’m not mistaken (didn’t try it for a while) – and it shouldn’t be too hard to equip SR and/or smokescreen for the extra stealth that would be needed for pvp.

ETA: I’m actually in favour of nerfing the duration of pistol 5. Only real downside would be no safe stomps.

ETA²: My idea wouldn’t work as the thief would have enough initative left to stealth right afterwards.
Thinking some more about it.

Just 1 thing dropping any utils that are meta for something so bad as refugee/smoke screen just lol, please no just no.

and 2nd thing as i already understand this issue just exists in wvw where you guys are bothered about it then split stealth if u want it nerfed, it is not unbalanced or broken in spvp on higher levels where the balancing should be done rather than destroy a class.

I’ve read all the back and forth in this thread (only the relevant ones) and it seems that the idea of ICD is not a good thing for Thief overall.

The intended use of stealth is to have a maximum duration of 4s and I don’t believe that stacking stealth for a longer duration was ever the intention. Now building off this presumed intention, any additional stealth stack should have no other effect if the duration time already reached the maximum of 4 seconds. As a compensation, any excess stacks of stealth is converted to some kind of buff, e.g. Resistance, Protection, Stability, etc. This way, you can still leap multiple times into a smoke field to get some additional buff instead of extending stealth.

As for Revealed, it should never have been a duration debuff. Revealed should simply remove the stealth buff, that’s all. All the skills that apply Revealed needs to be redesigned to “Reveal target area for X duration” — so if a Thief in stealth moved to this area, their stealth buff is removed. Revealed Training can then be redesigned to counter this by giving the Thief Reveal immunity for X seconds; “You cannot be revealed for 2s when walking on a Revealed area”.

So as for the OP’s suggestion, I don’t think we need anymore ICD.

thaniretouni.4762:

Huskyboy.1053:

D/P is not confusing, I think you’re revealing why you need more experience to be offering an educated opinion. Most stealth during a duel (D/P 5+2) will last 3s, so you know when the Backstab is coming. Shadow Shot is highly telegraphed. Heartseeker, when it’s used offensively, is also telegraphed. Headshot and Steal are probably the only unpredictable parts of the build. As for D/P hard countering, or even countering Warr at all, idk about that. I’d be happy to duel you on my Warr gimmick build, I beat End Orphan yesterday in a 1v1 with the same build. Dueling thieves is difficult but they have a very limited number of skills, especially considering that they’ll rarely switch weapon sets, unlike every other profession with weapon swap. So you should be able to predict what they’re gonna do, the issue is whether your reflexes are fast enough.

I know all these mate, but can be confusing to new players or the less skilled ones. Other classes are far more predictable and easier to fight against compared to thief. Even when something is telegraphed like Shadow shot it does not mean that you have the endurance or whatever to avoid it (think of small GvG where people always target thief as much as possible).

Huskyboy.1053:

This is what should happen. I don’t mean that from a morality standpoint, just that if there’s no skill floor then why will people keep coming back to the game? New players should die easily, if they don’t that means the game is laughably uncomplicated and easy. Rather, I think that Anet should make an incentives-based mentoring system for new players. I do it for free whenever I come across a thief that clearly needs help, teaching combos and directing them to Sindrener vids, but this would be more commonplace if people had an incentive to help others. I strongly resist making the class easier for noobs, they need to L2P, and they should get help in doing so.

Ofc this should happen for new players, but they shouldn’t be punished so much more
when playing thief compared to other classes. For example, even a rly new player who had like 10 hours of playing the game can take a necro and at least have a reasonable ability to help the team or at least feel that he can do something. Whereas, with thief is much harder imo (I had some friends (as well as other new guild members) who joined the game recently and I saw this clearly).

I’m sorry, you’re right, that was a bit harsh. I think we’ll have to disagree about the skill floor disparity, I’m comfortable with having varying skill floors between classes. Like I said, having actual mentors (or at least some instructional videos on sPvP and maybe on individual classes) would help people move above the skill floor. People who can’t handle the cowardly, squishy nature of Thief should start with DH and move up from there. Making Thief more durable without removing damage would make it OP, making it more durable and nerfing damage (such as slowing attack speed) would make it a Warrior. The difficulty comes from Thief’s distinguishing factors and gameplay. I agree it’s comparatively difficult, I don’t agree it should be made easier.

As for other stuff, Thief really is more predictable than other classes. I know you don’t believe it but Thief has fewer options and combos than, for example, DH, Warrior, or Mesmer. DH has multiple viable meta builds right now so you have to know what they are to know what to expect, and Mesmer… I mean it’s obvious what makes it hard to fight a Mesmer. Healbot ele is most common but high-level players use Fresh Air effectively. Both power Warr and condi Warr are very viable in this meta, OH axe even got buffed to make the class more versatile. Do you know all Warriors’ attack skills? Because right now longbow, mace, GS, shield, OH axe, and even MH sword (for mobility) are part of the meta. Warrior might be slow but you never know what they’re bringing to the table.

In contrast, any thief in ranked will be running D/P, which has one combo (5+2 for stealth, then backstab in 1.5-2s) or Staff, which is infinitely predictable. D/P play is fast-paced, but it’s not actually tricky. Steal, backstab, run away, hit, run away, stealth, backstab, interrupt, interrupt, hit, run away. Rinse and repeat. If you CC them twice then you’ve won. High-level thieves can make Staff less predictable, but they’re all busy running D/P because it has more party utility.

This is not to say Thief is the most predictable class, after recent nerfs Rev is 100% power rev except for masochists. But it is to say that if you want to learn how to fight Thief, it’s not as bad as you think. Learn the combos, count to 2 after they stealth, and win.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I’ve read all the back and forth in this thread (only the relevant ones) and it seems that the idea of ICD is not a good thing for Thief overall.

The intended use of stealth is to have a maximum duration of 4s and I don’t believe that stacking stealth for a longer duration was ever the intention. Now building off this presumed intention, any additional stealth stack should have no other effect if the duration time already reached the maximum of 4 seconds. As a compensation, any excess stacks of stealth is converted to some kind of buff, e.g. Resistance, Protection, Stability, etc. This way, you can still leap multiple times into a smoke field to get some additional buff instead of extending stealth.

As for Revealed, it should never have been a duration debuff. Revealed should simply remove the stealth buff, that’s all. All the skills that apply Revealed needs to be redesigned to “Reveal target area for X duration” — so if a Thief in stealth moved to this area, their stealth buff is removed. Revealed Training can then be redesigned to counter this by giving the Thief Reveal immunity for X seconds; “You cannot be revealed for 2s when walking on a Revealed area”.

So as for the OP’s suggestion, I don’t think we need anymore ICD.

Without Revealed, we’d be back in the land of people spamming CnD without actually knowing how to play the class, and doing just fine.

RT would negate all purpose of any revealing effect as well.

Revealed isn’t overpowered so much as some essential aspects of the thief need to be decoupled from stealth itself. If we saw less of a dependency, revealed wouldn’t be so punishing except against bad players that can’t deal with being squishy and not having a get-out-of-jail-free card.

@Azukas, OP mains D/P, lol.

@Staff > D/P arguers: It isn’t. It’s too telegraphed in high level play for the most part, and D/P can very well counter staff given smart play using headshot while maintaining distance and interrupting vault, and the staff AA chain does nothing about SS’s blind or damage. Staff is still an excellent weapon and has tremendous benefits when on flat surfaces in something like a 2v2 due to its projectile deflects and cleave/burst, but I insist most of the best of the best will still claim D/P is the superior kit for most purposes.

@Everying freaking out: I literally proved a 1s ICD would do absolutely nothing if you played it well. Not that I’m in support of the change since taking a closer look, but I think the issues are bigger than D/P itself.

I know how to fight as a thief and how to fight against one. I like my class to have higher skill cap to excel but not having high skill cap to barely survive against other classes. As for the weapons, I use almost all of the weapon sets and indeed if find that people who expect only d/p do not know how to react. What I said for thief pvp is not to make him more durable just to make some of the utility skills useful and potentially buff some of the clunky elements on a few weapons to make it at least seem a bit more fair. Anyway, we have changed the topic of the post. The thing is thief needs some love, but it has to be implemented in a smart way so its not op while still enabling new players to play thief on a decent level. I love thief whatever happens and will continuing maining my thief. Thief is love, thief is life!

Peace to all the brothers of the shadows!

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I’ve read all the back and forth in this thread (only the relevant ones) and it seems that the idea of ICD is not a good thing for Thief overall.

The intended use of stealth is to have a maximum duration of 4s and I don’t believe that stacking stealth for a longer duration was ever the intention. Now building off this presumed intention, any additional stealth stack should have no other effect if the duration time already reached the maximum of 4 seconds. As a compensation, any excess stacks of stealth is converted to some kind of buff, e.g. Resistance, Protection, Stability, etc. This way, you can still leap multiple times into a smoke field to get some additional buff instead of extending stealth.

As for Revealed, it should never have been a duration debuff. Revealed should simply remove the stealth buff, that’s all. All the skills that apply Revealed needs to be redesigned to “Reveal target area for X duration” — so if a Thief in stealth moved to this area, their stealth buff is removed. Revealed Training can then be redesigned to counter this by giving the Thief Reveal immunity for X seconds; “You cannot be revealed for 2s when walking on a Revealed area”.

So as for the OP’s suggestion, I don’t think we need anymore ICD.

Without Revealed, we’d be back in the land of people spamming CnD without actually knowing how to play the class, and doing just fine.

RT would negate all purpose of any revealing effect as well.

Revealed isn’t overpowered so much as some essential aspects of the thief need to be decoupled from stealth itself. If we saw less of a dependency, revealed wouldn’t be so punishing except against bad players that can’t deal with being squishy and not having a get-out-of-jail-free card.

Reveal should still exist, but not as a debuff with duration rather as a “stealth strip” effect.

bluri.2653:

Reducing the amount of stealth u can stack would hurt a lot in pvp, and that would require anet to buff thieves into the amount where they can take equal or 1v1 fights.

The easier it is to track a thief, the easier it is to rotate doesn’t matter what kind of mobility you have when they know where you are or when you are coming. hence stealth stacking is a must in spvp. Or big compensations to make thief some god 1v1er/sustain in smaller fights.

If you feel its mostly in wvw or whatever then i hope for your sake anet splits the stealthing mechanics so the nerfs applies in wvw and not in spvp

Except Anet has 0 interest in making thief any viable in 1v1 situations. In fact, last thing i remember from them was that they don’t want thief be strong in any 1v1 fights because of their mobility and ability to +1 (because clearly other classes can’t do it lol).

Shadowstep.6049:

bluri.2653:

Reducing the amount of stealth u can stack would hurt a lot in pvp, and that would require anet to buff thieves into the amount where they can take equal or 1v1 fights.

The easier it is to track a thief, the easier it is to rotate doesn’t matter what kind of mobility you have when they know where you are or when you are coming. hence stealth stacking is a must in spvp. Or big compensations to make thief some god 1v1er/sustain in smaller fights.

If you feel its mostly in wvw or whatever then i hope for your sake anet splits the stealthing mechanics so the nerfs applies in wvw and not in spvp

Except Anet has 0 interest in making thief any viable in 1v1 situations. In fact, last thing i remember from them was that they don’t want thief be strong in any 1v1 fights because of their mobility and ability to +1 (because clearly other classes can’t do it lol).

You are correct about why thieves aren’t allowed to be strong in even fights. The problem I’ve noticed from the other side is that thief mobility is no longer that special post HoT. Sind says it best….you have to stack stealth to beat get a significant jump to a node over the person guarding it. HoT gave ALL classes such extra mobility that even a vigilant DH can prevent the decap on most maps.

As for the fella saying I main a dp thief….no. I don’t play thief but main mesmer. Was forced to learn all I could about thieves during the brief time when I was hard countered.

Azukas.1426:

Shadowstep.6049:

bluri.2653:

Reducing the amount of stealth u can stack would hurt a lot in pvp, and that would require anet to buff thieves into the amount where they can take equal or 1v1 fights.

The easier it is to track a thief, the easier it is to rotate doesn’t matter what kind of mobility you have when they know where you are or when you are coming. hence stealth stacking is a must in spvp. Or big compensations to make thief some god 1v1er/sustain in smaller fights.

If you feel its mostly in wvw or whatever then i hope for your sake anet splits the stealthing mechanics so the nerfs applies in wvw and not in spvp

Except Anet has 0 interest in making thief any viable in 1v1 situations. In fact, last thing i remember from them was that they don’t want thief be strong in any 1v1 fights because of their mobility and ability to +1 (because clearly other classes can’t do it lol).

You are correct about why thieves aren’t allowed to be strong in even fights. The problem I’ve noticed from the other side is that thief mobility is no longer that special post HoT. Sind says it best….you have to stack stealth to beat get a significant jump to a node over the person guarding it. HoT gave ALL classes such extra mobility that even a vigilant DH can prevent the decap on most maps.

As for the fella saying I main a dp thief….no. I don’t play thief but main mesmer. Was forced to learn all I could about thieves during the brief time when I was hard countered.

DeceiverX was saying I main D/P, not you.

Azukas.1426:

Shadowstep.6049:

bluri.2653:

Reducing the amount of stealth u can stack would hurt a lot in pvp, and that would require anet to buff thieves into the amount where they can take equal or 1v1 fights.

The easier it is to track a thief, the easier it is to rotate doesn’t matter what kind of mobility you have when they know where you are or when you are coming. hence stealth stacking is a must in spvp. Or big compensations to make thief some god 1v1er/sustain in smaller fights.

If you feel its mostly in wvw or whatever then i hope for your sake anet splits the stealthing mechanics so the nerfs applies in wvw and not in spvp

Except Anet has 0 interest in making thief any viable in 1v1 situations. In fact, last thing i remember from them was that they don’t want thief be strong in any 1v1 fights because of their mobility and ability to +1 (because clearly other classes can’t do it lol).

You are correct about why thieves aren’t allowed to be strong in even fights. The problem I’ve noticed from the other side is that thief mobility is no longer that special post HoT. Sind says it best….you have to stack stealth to beat get a significant jump to a node over the person guarding it. HoT gave ALL classes such extra mobility that even a vigilant DH can prevent the decap on most maps.

As for the fella saying I main a dp thief….no. I don’t play thief but main mesmer. Was forced to learn all I could about thieves during the brief time when I was hard countered.

That is the issue – devs don’t see it. In their mind thieves have amazing mobility thus should be weak in every other aspect. Who cares that druids have RTL on 15 sec CD, revs have better chasing mobility than thieves, mes have group ports etc.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

With all the changes that have come to the Thief class, and some very valid complaints, I think it is warranted to take a look at Stealth, currently one of the biggest things that is hindering the balancing of Thief is it’s ability to endlessly stack Stealth even after you implemented the 5 stack limit of stealth a couple years ago.

Right now one very good way to bring the Thief inline with its Stealth Application without completely making the mechanic useless is the implementation Game wide for a 1 Second ICD per application of Stealth, this will stop D/P builds from endlessly stacking Stealth (Ghost Thief/TrapperThief build) and loosen the monopoly that D/P has on all competitive game modes.

I was not the one to first suggest the 1 second ICD that honor belongs to babazhook.

What this small change will do is allow for you to be able to easily balance Thief since they won’t be able to Camp Stealth permanently. And stop a lot of the stealth abuse that happens in game.

To be honest i dont think any good DP theif would go with SA over DA you loose out on most of ur damage, and how does a trapper Theif do any role beter then any other class for example condi Mesmer?. Yes Theif is not verstile with its wepon sets right now and the Solution to that is not tho nerf the one weponset thats makes Theif viabale in gamemods. That would only make Theif kitten in all game mods and as long as i has played the game Theif has always had one set that worked better in that meta first with DD that also had crazy stealth at that time when other classes did not have the mechanics they have today, and then SD, and now DP. The thing that makes DP the most viabale is not only the stealth stack its the intrupt on headshot, shadowshots and blinds, sure stack stealth alows u to play unprediceble and maybe wait out some of ur cooldowns sometimes but not to stay in permasteath..

I think this wouldn’t be a good idea. Stealth isn’t a real problem excepted for ghost thief which, even if ‘easy’ to counter, is a real pain in the *, just a troll build that should’t even exist.

I agree that D/P is too much used compared to the other weapon sets available. Blinding powder, headshot and shadowshot and easy stealth access are so good that you don’t really want to trade them for what other weapon sets have to offer. And that’s a shame, because I’d like to play others, and I do, but when I have to put a lot more effort to be less effective, it is kind of discouraging.

I think BP could have a slight time reduction and maybe a longer blind application or pulsing more quickly, so stealth access would be slightly reduced. Then the biggest change I’d do is the complete opposite of what Anet did : nerfing main hand dagger AA and buffing backstab which is harder to land. Something like reducing the AA damage, which is reallly strong and ridiculously easy to hit cause so quick, and making backstab unblockable, plus removing this stupid 1sec CD on stealth attacks. Backstab will still be avoidable by dodging at the right time, but easier to land, and your AA won’t allow you to finish your targets so quickly. This change to backstab would also be an up to D/D spec. Also, stealth attack from sword mainhand should be reworked, no reason to use it so cloack and dagger is just good for its damage on S/D combo.

Finally, I would rework thief’s talents, like accro which is a bit like daredevil but less good (1st minor trait completely obsolete, grandmaster traits meh). Daredevil could be nerfed because, let’s face it, dash is really too good of a trait : damage reduction, perma swiftness, soft-cc removal, longer distance dodge, all of that in a single trait. But I wouldn’t nerf it unless other professions also see similar nerfs to their overpowered capacities.

Rework useless utilities – scorpion wire – would be a nice bonus.

Oh my this is alarming, I know that I play Deception type Thief but if this plea purpose is to Nerf or make D/p set less viable while we all know that it’s the most weapon set use as a training wheel then I have to disagree and disregard every suggestion you people has in mind. If you have deep problem against stealthy stacking thief; as someone suggested there are some alternative class that can reveal a stealth thief in a single button press and I think its stackable (a clarification perhaps?).
My only gripe is Hide in Shadow been four years and this Healing skill tool tip hasn’t fix yet, currently it gives three second of stealthy feeling (Four when traited) when use/done in plain sight, but when use in shadowy area which required structural and environmental skill it does not give any rewarding part, at least make it longer duration when use it properly cos Hide in Shadows, right.

And yes if necessary reconsider Scorpion Wire currently it takes no skill to use it properly.

This will change nothing, except make thief even worse than it already is. D/P is favoured over everything else because it gives everything a thief needs to function remotely well in the competitive scene. Nerfing stealth will not change that. If you want to promote other weapon sets, you should look to rebalance the other weapon sets, instead of nerfing D/P.

The last thing thief needs are more nerfs currently. S/D used to be good, then they gutted it, cause they’re idiots. Staff is effortless to counter if you’re a decent player – walking out of a vault is quite effortless considering how telegraphed it is. D/D is a joke – cleansing a single condi is effortless, especially when you have passives that remove condis every few seconds. P/P…don’t even get me started. This set was, is, and always will be trash because they don’t know how to address the weapon set besides working around ‘Unload’ spam.

You want to complain about something regarding the current balance? Complain about the endless spam of blocks, invulnerabilities, immunities, dazes, condis, and passives. That’s what’s actually ruining PvP, not a thief that melts in seconds and literally serves no purpose than to distract and decap unguarded points.

Thief doesn’t only need nerfs in certain small ways. It also needs buffs in several other ways. The problem is that, because of the way weapon sets work, a buff helps the entire class—including the possibly already “just fine” builds.

Balance isn’t just about buffs and nerfs to your own class. Buffs and nerfs have to happen in concert with buffs and nerfs to other classes. Longer duration stealth abilities lead to longer duration “revealed” abilities. Revealed, like stealth, should be extremely short duration when applied by people. A slight adjustment to prevent permanent stealth is all that is being asked for. Those that don’t use perma stealth won’t be effected if a good solution is used.

And then, hopefully, we can start having a conversation about buffing thief without simply increasing auto-attack.

saerni.2584:

Thief doesn’t only need nerfs in certain small ways. It also needs buffs in several other ways. The problem is that, because of the way weapon sets work, a buff helps the entire class—including the possibly already “just fine” builds.

Balance isn’t just about buffs and nerfs to your own class. Buffs and nerfs have to happen in concert with buffs and nerfs to other classes. Longer duration stealth abilities lead to longer duration “revealed” abilities. Revealed, like stealth, should be extremely short duration when applied by people. A slight adjustment to prevent permanent stealth is all that is being asked for. Those that don’t use perma stealth won’t be effected if a good solution is used.

And then, hopefully, we can start having a conversation about buffing thief without simply increasing auto-attack.

No such thing as ‘perma stealth’ outside of WvW…and if that garbage build is causing you problems, then you need to get better at the game and start carrying condi cleanse.

saerni.2584:

Thief doesn’t only need nerfs in certain small ways. It also needs buffs in several other ways. The problem is that, because of the way weapon sets work, a buff helps the entire class—including the possibly already “just fine” builds.

Balance isn’t just about buffs and nerfs to your own class. Buffs and nerfs have to happen in concert with buffs and nerfs to other classes. Longer duration stealth abilities lead to longer duration “revealed” abilities. Revealed, like stealth, should be extremely short duration when applied by people. A slight adjustment to prevent permanent stealth is all that is being asked for. Those that don’t use perma stealth won’t be effected if a good solution is used.

And then, hopefully, we can start having a conversation about buffing thief without simply increasing auto-attack.

But perma stealth is not even part of the meta for Theif they guys that runs those builds does not contribute tho the team and by going out of the meta trying to play a diffrent role they doing it worse then other classes can do.. A condi trapper thief can not put out more condition then a necro,mesmer or warrior can. But no class beats Theif when it comes to mobility and unprediceble play when it comes to shortbow, dash and DP. But if u play staff a revenant can beat u to a point not to mention u can not decap from behind the enemy team because the will see u. My point is with the meta:
running deadly arts, trickery, and daredevil with short bow and dash there is no way to perma stealth and stealth is used to play unprediceble not to hide and take u on one on one other classes can do that better then a Theif could anyways even i they nerf stealth stack.
A Theif is not supposed tho fight fair plus one is the role for Theif what anet could do is to realy make plus one as a role needed even more then it is today.

Joel.8705:

saerni.2584:

Thief doesn’t only need nerfs in certain small ways. It also needs buffs in several other ways. The problem is that, because of the way weapon sets work, a buff helps the entire class—including the possibly already “just fine” builds.

Balance isn’t just about buffs and nerfs to your own class. Buffs and nerfs have to happen in concert with buffs and nerfs to other classes. Longer duration stealth abilities lead to longer duration “revealed” abilities. Revealed, like stealth, should be extremely short duration when applied by people. A slight adjustment to prevent permanent stealth is all that is being asked for. Those that don’t use perma stealth won’t be effected if a good solution is used.

And then, hopefully, we can start having a conversation about buffing thief without simply increasing auto-attack.

But perma stealth is not even part of the meta for Theif they guys that runs those builds does not contribute tho the team and by going out of the meta trying to play a diffrent role they doing it worse then other classes can do.. A condi trapper thief can not put out more condition then a necro,mesmer or warrior can. But no class beats Theif when it comes to mobility and unprediceble play when it comes to shortbow, dash and DP. But if u play staff a revenant can beat u to a point not to mention u can not decap from behind the enemy team because the will see u. My point is with the meta:
running deadly arts, trickery, and daredevil with short bow and dash there is no way to perma stealth and stealth is used to play unprediceble not to hide and take u on one on one other classes can do that better then a Theif could anyways even i they nerf stealth stack.
A Theif is not supposed tho fight fair plus one is the role for Theif what anet could do is to realy make plus one as a role needed even more then it is today.

The whole game does not revolve around sPvP, what you are mentioning is just for sPvP. Also any class can +1 it’s not like Thieves have the monopoly on mobility anymore between skills like GoTL, and other classes mobility.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Joel.8705:

saerni.2584:

Thief doesn’t only need nerfs in certain small ways. It also needs buffs in several other ways. The problem is that, because of the way weapon sets work, a buff helps the entire class—including the possibly already “just fine” builds.

Balance isn’t just about buffs and nerfs to your own class. Buffs and nerfs have to happen in concert with buffs and nerfs to other classes. Longer duration stealth abilities lead to longer duration “revealed” abilities. Revealed, like stealth, should be extremely short duration when applied by people. A slight adjustment to prevent permanent stealth is all that is being asked for. Those that don’t use perma stealth won’t be effected if a good solution is used.

And then, hopefully, we can start having a conversation about buffing thief without simply increasing auto-attack.

But perma stealth is not even part of the meta for Theif they guys that runs those builds does not contribute tho the team and by going out of the meta trying to play a diffrent role they doing it worse then other classes can do.. A condi trapper thief can not put out more condition then a necro,mesmer or warrior can. But no class beats Theif when it comes to mobility and unprediceble play when it comes to shortbow, dash and DP. But if u play staff a revenant can beat u to a point not to mention u can not decap from behind the enemy team because the will see u. My point is with the meta:
running deadly arts, trickery, and daredevil with short bow and dash there is no way to perma stealth and stealth is used to play unprediceble not to hide and take u on one on one other classes can do that better then a Theif could anyways even i they nerf stealth stack.
A Theif is not supposed tho fight fair plus one is the role for Theif what anet could do is to realy make plus one as a role needed even more then it is today.

The whole game does not revolve around sPvP, what you are mentioning is just for sPvP. Also any class can +1 it’s not like Thieves have the monopoly on mobility anymore between skills like GoTL, and other classes mobility.

Well i guesd that u talked about pvp or wvw because whats the point about talking about stealth stack in pve.. Where i cant see it be a problem any how.
And then do tell me a class that can beat a Theif in mobilty? thats runs dash, shortbow, and shadow step. A warrior running Greatsword and sword has no chance, druid running Greatsword and staff has no chanse a revenant with shiro and staff has no chance and they are the the classes with best mobilty behind thief when it comes to covering a dictanse. And mobilty is not only to get as far and fast away as possible a DP thief can stealth for a short period of time and disengage in another direction thats why theif has the best mobilty and if a team plays around having a Theif in their team i have no doubt that the thief is the best plus one in the game meaning if they push the sides of the map Theif is the best plus one. And do u realy want evry class to have the same mechanics and be able to play the same roles?

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Joel.8705:

saerni.2584:

Thief doesn’t only need nerfs in certain small ways. It also needs buffs in several other ways. The problem is that, because of the way weapon sets work, a buff helps the entire class—including the possibly already “just fine” builds.

Balance isn’t just about buffs and nerfs to your own class. Buffs and nerfs have to happen in concert with buffs and nerfs to other classes. Longer duration stealth abilities lead to longer duration “revealed” abilities. Revealed, like stealth, should be extremely short duration when applied by people. A slight adjustment to prevent permanent stealth is all that is being asked for. Those that don’t use perma stealth won’t be effected if a good solution is used.

And then, hopefully, we can start having a conversation about buffing thief without simply increasing auto-attack.

But perma stealth is not even part of the meta for Theif they guys that runs those builds does not contribute tho the team and by going out of the meta trying to play a diffrent role they doing it worse then other classes can do.. A condi trapper thief can not put out more condition then a necro,mesmer or warrior can. But no class beats Theif when it comes to mobility and unprediceble play when it comes to shortbow, dash and DP. But if u play staff a revenant can beat u to a point not to mention u can not decap from behind the enemy team because the will see u. My point is with the meta:
running deadly arts, trickery, and daredevil with short bow and dash there is no way to perma stealth and stealth is used to play unprediceble not to hide and take u on one on one other classes can do that better then a Theif could anyways even i they nerf stealth stack.
A Theif is not supposed tho fight fair plus one is the role for Theif what anet could do is to realy make plus one as a role needed even more then it is today.

The whole game does not revolve around sPvP, what you are mentioning is just for sPvP. Also any class can +1 it’s not like Thieves have the monopoly on mobility anymore between skills like GoTL, and other classes mobility.

And again if u want to talk about other game mods in what game mod is a trapper condi or permastealth thief the meta? i dont see the problem with stealth because those builds suffers in so many other ways compeard to other classes regardless of gamemods.

Joel.8705:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Joel.8705:

saerni.2584:

Thief doesn’t only need nerfs in certain small ways. It also needs buffs in several other ways. The problem is that, because of the way weapon sets work, a buff helps the entire class—including the possibly already “just fine” builds.

Balance isn’t just about buffs and nerfs to your own class. Buffs and nerfs have to happen in concert with buffs and nerfs to other classes. Longer duration stealth abilities lead to longer duration “revealed” abilities. Revealed, like stealth, should be extremely short duration when applied by people. A slight adjustment to prevent permanent stealth is all that is being asked for. Those that don’t use perma stealth won’t be effected if a good solution is used.

And then, hopefully, we can start having a conversation about buffing thief without simply increasing auto-attack.

But perma stealth is not even part of the meta for Theif they guys that runs those builds does not contribute tho the team and by going out of the meta trying to play a diffrent role they doing it worse then other classes can do.. A condi trapper thief can not put out more condition then a necro,mesmer or warrior can. But no class beats Theif when it comes to mobility and unprediceble play when it comes to shortbow, dash and DP. But if u play staff a revenant can beat u to a point not to mention u can not decap from behind the enemy team because the will see u. My point is with the meta:
running deadly arts, trickery, and daredevil with short bow and dash there is no way to perma stealth and stealth is used to play unprediceble not to hide and take u on one on one other classes can do that better then a Theif could anyways even i they nerf stealth stack.
A Theif is not supposed tho fight fair plus one is the role for Theif what anet could do is to realy make plus one as a role needed even more then it is today.

The whole game does not revolve around sPvP, what you are mentioning is just for sPvP. Also any class can +1 it’s not like Thieves have the monopoly on mobility anymore between skills like GoTL, and other classes mobility.

And again if u want to talk about other game mods in what game mod is a trapper condi or permastealth thief the meta? i dont see the problem with stealth because those builds suffers in so many other ways compeard to other classes regardless of gamemods.

That’s sad all you care about is what is Meta lol. but see what’s killing Thief build diversity is Anet won’t buff Thief since “Stealth OP” cries from all the bads. And I was talking of WvW not Pve, let’s see in WvW people complain about Ghost Thief, day in day out yes if you know what you are doing it does make it easy to kill them or get away but sadly they do have a point you shouldn’t be able to be permanently stealthed and deal damage to players… if you can’t grasp how that is a bad design I can’t help you and probably no one can.

Joel.8705:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Joel.8705:

saerni.2584:

Thief doesn’t only need nerfs in certain small ways. It also needs buffs in several other ways. The problem is that, because of the way weapon sets work, a buff helps the entire class—including the possibly already “just fine” builds.

Balance isn’t just about buffs and nerfs to your own class. Buffs and nerfs have to happen in concert with buffs and nerfs to other classes. Longer duration stealth abilities lead to longer duration “revealed” abilities. Revealed, like stealth, should be extremely short duration when applied by people. A slight adjustment to prevent permanent stealth is all that is being asked for. Those that don’t use perma stealth won’t be effected if a good solution is used.

And then, hopefully, we can start having a conversation about buffing thief without simply increasing auto-attack.

But perma stealth is not even part of the meta for Theif they guys that runs those builds does not contribute tho the team and by going out of the meta trying to play a diffrent role they doing it worse then other classes can do.. A condi trapper thief can not put out more condition then a necro,mesmer or warrior can. But no class beats Theif when it comes to mobility and unprediceble play when it comes to shortbow, dash and DP. But if u play staff a revenant can beat u to a point not to mention u can not decap from behind the enemy team because the will see u. My point is with the meta:
running deadly arts, trickery, and daredevil with short bow and dash there is no way to perma stealth and stealth is used to play unprediceble not to hide and take u on one on one other classes can do that better then a Theif could anyways even i they nerf stealth stack.
A Theif is not supposed tho fight fair plus one is the role for Theif what anet could do is to realy make plus one as a role needed even more then it is today.

The whole game does not revolve around sPvP, what you are mentioning is just for sPvP. Also any class can +1 it’s not like Thieves have the monopoly on mobility anymore between skills like GoTL, and other classes mobility.

Well i guesd that u talked about pvp or wvw because whats the point about talking about stealth stack in pve.. Where i cant see it be a problem any how.
And then do tell me a class that can beat a Theif in mobilty? thats runs dash, shortbow, and shadow step. A warrior running Greatsword and sword has no chance, druid running Greatsword and staff has no chanse a revenant with shiro and staff has no chance and they are the the classes with best mobilty behind thief when it comes to covering a dictanse. And mobilty is not only to get as far and fast away as possible a DP thief can stealth for a short period of time and disengage in another direction thats why theif has the best mobilty and if a team plays around having a Theif in their team i have no doubt that the thief is the best plus one in the game meaning if they push the sides of the map Theif is the best plus one. And do u realy want evry class to have the same mechanics and be able to play the same roles?

If thief is so great when has it gotten far in any of the tournaments recently? If it’s decap and mobility is so impactful why do some of the pro league players say just ignore it as the best strategy? It’s kind of funny because it’s true.

right now the gap between Thief and others classes mobility is so small that oh you can out run them on an open map but on pvp maps not so much they are only 1 maybe 2 seconds behind you.

Already Anet has been giving more classes Thief like roles More access to stealth and higher mobility it’s true With Druid they got more stealth and mobility very low CDs with Superspeed, Scrappers got more stealth and so did Mesmers indirectly from Chronomancer.

So what does Thief have that’s special anymore? Nothing you are better filling that role with a more versatile class, in pvp

I mean, I’m not very sympathetic to cries about ghost thieves. I think that even a small amount of condi clear will help things quite a bit and when you die to one there are usually two other people targeting you as well (three on one but lets blame the ghost thief?).

But I do think that it is strange to argue against a change based on “this isn’t even meta.” Not everything has to be about the meta. In fact many changes are made to so-called margins rather than directly to meta builds.

We can’t expect that thief will always and forever be buffed. Some classes and traits need specific nerfs, small and large, so the rest can be buffed without power creep. Power creep is bad and not something we should be encouraging.

As I’ve said repeatedly, even if the Ghost thief build isn’t objectively overpowered, it’s only possible due to poor design, and should be negated for that reason alone.

DeceiverX.8361:

As I’ve said repeatedly, even if the Ghost thief build isn’t objectively overpowered, it’s only possible due to poor design, and should be negated for that reason alone.

So you want other builds to suffer because one underpowerd build can have perma stealth and is not even viabale in any game mode exept roaming. U realise that u are asking anet not only to balance some traits but to change core Theif mechanics. When u see a trapper Theif in wvw just run pass him run to an open field and fight him there ur ods will be much better.

What other build will suffer if you don’t mind me asking?

saerni.2584:

What other build will suffer if you don’t mind me asking?

DP that dont runs SA can not have perma stealth and we don stack 4 Times’ most of the time so reducing stealth will efect the meta for Theif in a big way due to initiative cost of heartseaker. And it dont even realy solve ur problem any how because part of why a trapper can stay in stealth is due to trapper runes not only stealth stacking.

bluri.2653:

Just 1 thing dropping any utils that are meta for something so bad as refugee/smoke screen just lol, please no just no.

and 2nd thing as i already understand this issue just exists in wvw where you guys are bothered about it then split stealth if u want it nerfed, it is not unbalanced or broken in spvp on higher levels where the balancing should be done rather than destroy a class.

One question: did you ever play any other set than D/P?

Joel.8705:

saerni.2584:

What other build will suffer if you don’t mind me asking?

DP that dont runs SA can not have perma stealth and we don stack 4 Times’ most of the time so reducing stealth will efect the meta for Theif in a big way due to initiative cost of heartseaker. And it dont even realy solve ur problem any how because part of why a trapper can stay in stealth is due to trapper runes not only stealth stacking.

Most trapper setups don’t use trapper runes…. since they only have 2 traps 1 trained and 1 slotted, you can perma stealth without them and still do damage.

Just tried it in PvE where I don’t run SA – one smoke field, 4 leaps – 12 s of stealth, at 10 initative after the stealth had run out. I guess I’d be full with SA and SRej – so I can stealth at will and be stealthed for as long as if I had used SR – and do it again right afterwards and get all benefits SA brings for the duration of stealth. No other thief set can do that but we’re punished all the same with stealth attack ICD, with being squishy and with forced reveal people call for because all they see is D/P (which is the last set that is played anyway). If your only way to survive PvP is extended stealth and you actually want to keep it that way, then I don’t know. I have more fun fighting actually.
PvP might be a different mode but the rules still apply more or less the same and 2 years ago I had fun keeping 4 guys on point as a stinky D/D thief (who already was nerfed in PvP).
I don’t get the mindset that you guys want to keep it that way – it’s not neccessarily about my fun, it’s about fairness and D/P is unfair.

If you want to see how fast D/P would drop from being Meta? Ask Anet to put Flanking Strike and Larcenous Strike to how they were April 30 2013, and to get rid of the uncalled for Infiltrator Return cast time. and those would be two very small tweaks,

Jana.6831:

Just tried it in PvE where I don’t run SA – one smoke field, 4 leaps – 12 s of stealth, at 10 initative after the stealth had run out. I guess I’d be full with SA and SRej – so I can stealth at will and be stealthed for as long as if I had used SR – and do it again right afterwards and get all benefits SA brings for the duration of stealth. No other thief set can do that but we’re punished all the same with stealth attack ICD, with being squishy and with forced reveal people call for because all they see is D/P (which is the last set that is played anyway). If your only way to survive PvP is extended stealth and you actually want to keep it that way, then I don’t know. I have more fun fighting actually.
PvP might be a different mode but the rules still apply more or less the same and 2 years ago I had fun keeping 4 guys on point as a stinky D/D thief (who already was nerfed in PvP).
I don’t get the mindset that you guys want to keep it that way – it’s not neccessarily about my fun, it’s about fairness and D/P is unfair.

Nerfing DP is not the soulotion if it was why cant u just put on you dagers and play exactly as the good old day:P its the other classes bufs thats forced Theif to use DP.

Jana.6831:

bluri.2653:

Just 1 thing dropping any utils that are meta for something so bad as refugee/smoke screen just lol, please no just no.

and 2nd thing as i already understand this issue just exists in wvw where you guys are bothered about it then split stealth if u want it nerfed, it is not unbalanced or broken in spvp on higher levels where the balancing should be done rather than destroy a class.

One question: did you ever play any other set than D/P?

I’ve already played everything in the meta SPVP (S/D, S/P and D/P, some staff too), now let me ask you something – do you play competitive SPVP? No you don’t.

Also blaqfyre theres no revert of nerfs of S/D that would ever bring it back into meta competitive spvp, im talking about ESL/WTS

I’ll say it once again, stealth stacking in SPVP Competitive in the highest level has no issues whatsoever, you guys talk about scenarios that don’t exist here, and nerfing it because you guys have problems with it in other game modes is not the direction that thief needs in SPVP to become viable. Nor does it help reverting any other weaponset nerfs or traitlines (acro S/D for example)..

Joel.8705:

Nerfing DP is not the soulotion if it was why cant u just put on you dagers and play exactly as the good old day:P its the other classes bufs thats forced Theif to use DP.

It is and I just explained why. If you disagree then explain what the solution would be.

We get all nerfs because of D/P which can handle them a lot better than any other set anyway – so every other set is punished twice. And people still don’t get that the extended stealth is only possible with D/P and call for more and more nerfs which the devs copy and paste from the forums.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

If you want to see how fast D/P would drop from being Meta? Ask Anet to put Flanking Strike and Larcenous Strike to how they were April 30 2013, and to get rid of the uncalled for Infiltrator Return cast time. and those would be two very small tweaks,

DP is not the meta thief does not even include in the meta in anything other then pve, DP is just the only set that can give Theif a viabale role in pvp these days. So it doesnt mater if they nerf it the other sets will not take its place the other classes will.

bluri.2653:

I’ve already played everything in the meta SPVP (S/D, S/P and D/P, some staff too), now let me ask you something – do you play competitive SPVP?

Also blaqfyre theres no revert of nerfs of S/D that would ever bring it back into meta competitive spvp, im talking about ESL/WTS

Wow – ok. I don’t so?
If I did I’d know that I can only survive if being invisible and that I need to be stealthed at all costs?
You can do that without D/P actually and it wouldn’t hurt you if you were able to defend yourself without having to run away from every fight – think outside of your box maybe?

Jana.6831:

bluri.2653:

I’ve already played everything in the meta SPVP (S/D, S/P and D/P, some staff too), now let me ask you something – do you play competitive SPVP?

Also blaqfyre theres no revert of nerfs of S/D that would ever bring it back into meta competitive spvp, im talking about ESL/WTS

Wow – ok. I don’t so?
If I did I’d know that I can only survive if being invisible and that I need to be stealthed at all costs?
You can do that without D/P actually and it wouldn’t hurt you if you were able to defend yourself without having to run away from every fight – think outside of your box maybe?

Huh? I don’t understand your sentence at all, re-read my post i edited it with some more context

Joel.8705:

DP is not the meta thief does not even include in the meta in anything other then pve, DP is just the only set that can give Theif a viabale role in pvp these days. So it doesnt mater if they nerf it the other sets will not take its place the other classes will.

Yeah, then anet will have a problem: “You can play 9 professions in this game but one is absolutely unviable – not wanted in raids, not wanted in pvp, not wanted in wvw”. They nerfed thief that mindlessly that they basically destroyed it – it’s only saved by D/P but anet don’t seem to know why. And we’re here to explain it.

That’s great, sinderer – still thief as a class is nerfed and nerfed because of D/P – it doesn’t matter whether or not it’s an issue in pvp – get my point now?

Jana.6831:

Joel.8705:

Nerfing DP is not the soulotion if it was why cant u just put on you dagers and play exactly as the good old day:P its the other classes bufs thats forced Theif to use DP.

It is and I just explained why. If you disagree then explain what the solution would be.

We get all nerfs because of D/P which can handle them a lot better than any other set anyway – so every other set is punished twice. And people still don’t get that the extended stealth is only possible with D/P and call for more and more nerfs which the devs copy and paste from the forums.

So how will that help the other sets that DP gets nerfed thats will only make Theif worse buff the other sets instead of nerfing our only viabale set?

Joel.8705:

So how will that help the other sets that DP gets nerfed thats will only make Theif worse buff the other sets instead of nerfing our only viabale set?

Because they have to buff thief if they nerf D/P.

Jana.6831:

That’s great, sinderer – still thief as a class is nerfed and nerfed because of D/P – it doesn’t matter whether or not it’s an issue in pvp – get my point now?

Ty for clarifying.

And regardless, if they nerf D/P that i still find the absolute best and only viable set in spvp if we ever want to get back into competitive environment nerfing D/P would make us never get back to it, theres no buff in the world on any other wepset of thief that would make us return unless you break thief and make it broken af.

And i’m still only talking in competitive ESL/WTS environment OK?

Jana.6831:

Joel.8705:

DP is not the meta thief does not even include in the meta in anything other then pve, DP is just the only set that can give Theif a viabale role in pvp these days. So it doesnt mater if they nerf it the other sets will not take its place the other classes will.

Yeah, then anet will have a problem: “You can play 9 professions in this game but one is absolutely unviable – not wanted in raids, not wanted in pvp, not wanted in wvw”. They nerfed thief that mindlessly that they basically destroyed it – it’s only saved by D/P but anet don’t seem to know why. And we’re here to explain it.

Well its not unviable in pvp if the team plays around it it is the best plus one class u can have due to mobilty. The only problem is that most teams dont understand how to play with a Theif and they overcomit to a point instead of spliting.
My point is that i dont want all classes to be the same and have the same mechanics and be able fight in one vs ones with all other classes if anet make plus one a needed role Theif will be in a beter spot.

bluri.2653:

Ty for clarifying.

And regardless, if they nerf D/P that i still find the absolute best and only viable set in spvp if we ever want to get back into competitive environment nerfing D/P would make us never get back to it, theres no buff in the world on any other wepset of thief that would make us return unless you break thief and make it broken af.

And i’m still only talking in competitive ESL/WTS environment OK?

It’s thief with training wheels – has always been, will always be. I think it’s better if it’s used like you used it in (at least on – didn’t watch more) of the videos you uploaded recently – to reposition and not for 12+s of stealth and that’s what’s this thread is about.

I don’t care about pvp, sorry. Only thief I was halfway interested in was Sizer. Only set I play is D/D which is completely unviable since at least June last year – so yeah..

Joel.8705:

Jana.6831:

Joel.8705:

DP is not the meta thief does not even include in the meta in anything other then pve, DP is just the only set that can give Theif a viabale role in pvp these days. So it doesnt mater if they nerf it the other sets will not take its place the other classes will.

Yeah, then anet will have a problem: “You can play 9 professions in this game but one is absolutely unviable – not wanted in raids, not wanted in pvp, not wanted in wvw”. They nerfed thief that mindlessly that they basically destroyed it – it’s only saved by D/P but anet don’t seem to know why. And we’re here to explain it.

Well its not unviable in pvp if the team plays around it it is the best plus one class u can have due to mobilty. The only problem is that most teams dont understand how to play with a Theif and they overcomit to a point instead of spliting.
My point is that i dont want all classes to be the same and have the same mechanics and be able fight in one vs ones with all other classes if anet make plus one a needed role Theif will be in a beter spot.

Reread…
“if we destroy D/P..”
“..then”
“but it’s not unviable”
– yeah not yet.

Jana.6831:

Joel.8705:

Jana.6831:

Joel.8705:

DP is not the meta thief does not even include in the meta in anything other then pve, DP is just the only set that can give Theif a viabale role in pvp these days. So it doesnt mater if they nerf it the other sets will not take its place the other classes will.

Yeah, then anet will have a problem: “You can play 9 professions in this game but one is absolutely unviable – not wanted in raids, not wanted in pvp, not wanted in wvw”. They nerfed thief that mindlessly that they basically destroyed it – it’s only saved by D/P but anet don’t seem to know why. And we’re here to explain it.

Well its not unviable in pvp if the team plays around it it is the best plus one class u can have due to mobilty. The only problem is that most teams dont understand how to play with a Theif and they overcomit to a point instead of spliting.
My point is that i dont want all classes to be the same and have the same mechanics and be able fight in one vs ones with all other classes if anet make plus one a needed role Theif will be in a beter spot.

Reread…
“if we destroy D/P..”
“..then”
“but it’s not unviable”
– yeah not yet.

Yes i agree if we destroy DP Theif is not viabale.. But that will note make the other wepon sets magicly become the meta only make other classes do theifs role better.

So what we are talking about is a reduction in stealth capacity of D/P from that 12 seconds Jana mentioned to 9. Anyone using 9 seconds or less of stealth wouldn’t be affected. It brings D/P closer to the other sets and allows us to demand less broad nerfs to stealth in general (i.e. introducing new reveal abilities on other classes).

Why protest a change that only reduces the stealth potential of D/P slightly, which already has strong stealth potential—and which will remain strong after—as though it will make D/P unviable? It won’t, but I worry that without a change we will continue to face more and more unreasonably long reveal abilities being handed out like candy to other classes.

D/P has a lot more going for it than just pistol 5. Pistol 4 and Shadowshot alone make the set a potent and deadly weapon.

She thinks for some reasons that Anet would actually buff thieves if d/p gets nerfed – what a delusion. People will just play staff and Anet will as always push condi build on us. Real reason why all those wvw heroes want d/p nerfed is because it ruins their day as d/d.

If you think d/p is strong that it requires nerfs – go play core d/p in high tiers of pvp and please record so we can all see how OP it is. I bet it would be great show.