Guild Wars 2

So am I the only one that watched them sell the acro line feline grace nerf by saying “look but vigor on you is 50% more effective”?

yeah and they even nerfed vigor… dont really like that on paper, not sure how it will turn out to be

gonna quote myself from a different thread:

S/D was nerfed. Not gonna discuss whether it was necessary or not, but it got nerfed.
Sure, there is that nice trait for initiative regain, but:
1. the new Feline Grace reduces the overall amount of dodges
2. vigor got nerfed, of course that also hits other classes but S/D is the only build that entirely depends on dodges (and teleports)
3. the current Endless Stamina ensures that S/D thieves have more regular dodges than other classes, but you dont get that +10% dmg from Fluid Strikes

sure you can take panic strike and executioner/improvisation now, but i left that out as thats simply due to having 3 full trait lines which every profession/build gets

Mmm maybe it’s good to check some numbers:

Let’s say S/D can hold up permanent vigor right now:
That would mean they could potentially dodge once every 5 seconds.
Together with the Feline Grace trait that is one dodge every 3.5 seconds right?

With the HoT release Vigor will be reduced to 50 percent for all other professions aside thief, which leaves the dodges to once every 5 seconds because we don’t have Feline Grace anymore.

We might potentially gain some initiative by Upper hand, but I don’t think this will improve the situation a lot.

It basically comes down to S/D thieves being able to dodge ~30 procent less then they could before in exchange of other Vigor-Professions being able to dodge 25percent less then they could before (Down from 2.0 to 1.5 endurance rate)

So Tarkan is right when he says it’s a nerf. Though I hope the effects of evading and dodging (for example the recharge on steal) will make it up a little in practise, but we need to see about that.

Tarkan.5609:

yeah and they even nerfed vigor… dont really like that on paper, not sure how it will turn out to be

gonna quote myself from a different thread:

S/D was nerfed. Not gonna discuss whether it was necessary or not, but it got nerfed.
Sure, there is that nice trait for initiative regain, but:
1. the new Feline Grace reduces the overall amount of dodges
2. vigor got nerfed, of course that also hits other classes but S/D is the only build that entirely depends on dodges (and teleports)
3. the current Endless Stamina ensures that S/D thieves have more regular dodges than other classes, but you dont get that +10% dmg from Fluid Strikes

sure you can take panic strike and executioner/improvisation now, but i left that out as thats simply due to having 3 full trait lines which every profession/build gets

Yeah that would be the reason I posted this was the vigor nerf in complete of being 50% less effective.

So now all the acro line does is bring you back to vigor being what it is right now.

Im going to give Acro a shot (As active defense really fit my playstyle way much better than passive defenses), but on paper it just really looks like the clear winner is going to be SA.

I was actually looking forward to D/P acro thief. Still might, I dont know. It will be far more vigor than I currently run in a crit strikes D/P build for PvP.

I do think S/D is going to feel a hit though. I just thought it was hilarious that they sold feline grace on “But look vigor is 50% more effective on you” then they nerf vigor to being 50% less effective.

They wont simply add that bonus so that we are back to our current vigor number.

Currently, we are getting double the endurance with vigor, no changes can be made to that. Thats our current 100% of vigor effectiveness.
With the changes, we will be getting 1,5x the endurance with vigor, but that will be the new 100% for vigor. meaning, if they say that that minor is making vigor 50% more effective, we are talking about 150% of vigor effectiveness with the changes.

Meaning:
- Vigor right now: 2x the endurance gain (100%)

- Untraited vigor with the changes: 1,5x the endurance gain (100% then, in comparison to now 50%)

- Traited vigor with the changes: 1,75x the endurance gain (150% then, in comparison to now 75%)

Hope you get what i mean

Aha Tarkan has a good point, that would only increase it to 1.75 instead of 2.00 endurance rate.

You’re right that that would be quite a big nerf then.

But I am not sure if they indeed mean the 50 percent increase, or 50 percent in addition (which would round it up in a nice number)

I do think that S/D shouldn’t be a build that should continuously spam dodges, but instead should be skillful in sense of that dodges need to be timed. But let’s hope it will not kill S/D too much.

Going to see how the vigor changes feel. I was thinking about 60066, but if the traits don’t really make up for the vigor nerf, might as well go 66006 and pump out damage faster than they can kill you. I’m sure we’ll eventually see someone analyze whether it’s better to knock off 3/4 of a second for a dodge, gain life from your crits, or have extra ferocity and fury.

This was coming from someone who was playing 50036 D/X, so i wouldn’t have the weapon evades to proc the new FG (blinds if anything).

Acro sucks bad now. Its effect is nerfed from 100 to 50% in general and raised to 100% again with Acrobatics. So with perma vigor (what is pretty hard to get btw.) now you have the same amount of endurance like before the patch with any class using vigor.

That makes no sense at all. I would even say, that with the endurance created by the dagger autoattack a D/X stealth thief will have about the same number of dodges as an acro thief PLUS stealth.

What were they thinking?

Tarkan.5609:

Meaning:
- Vigor right now: 2x the endurance gain (100%)

- Untraited vigor with the changes: 1,5x the endurance gain (100% then, in comparison to now 50%)

- Traited vigor with the changes: 1,75x the endurance gain (150% then, in comparison to now 75%)

Hope you get what i mean

Got it. And I hope they don’t do it that way! Then it would be even worse.

KrHome.1920:

Acro sucks bad now. Its effect is nerfed from 100 to 50% in general and raised to 100% again with Acrobatics. So with perma vigor (what is pretty hard to get btw.) now you have the same amount of endurance like before the patch with any class using vigor.

That makes no sense at all. I would even say, that with the endurance created by the dagger autoattack a D/X stealth thief will have about the same number of dodges as an acro thief PLUS stealth.

What were they thinking?

Tarkan.5609:

Meaning:
- Vigor right now: 2x the endurance gain (100%)

- Untraited vigor with the changes: 1,5x the endurance gain (100% then, in comparison to now 50%)

- Traited vigor with the changes: 1,75x the endurance gain (150% then, in comparison to now 75%)

Hope you get what i mean

Got it. And I hope they don’t do it that way! Then it would be even worse.

And don´t forget about the romoval of boonduration we had because of acrobatic. Some other classes got traits to compensate it. I think they forgot us. Less duration on every vigor. Withdraw on 18sec now, vigor on heal 5sec. Great…not.

Tarkan.5609:

They wont simply add that bonus so that we are back to our current vigor number.

Currently, we are getting double the endurance with vigor, no changes can be made to that. Thats our current 100% of vigor effectiveness.
With the changes, we will be getting 1,5x the endurance with vigor, but that will be the new 100% for vigor. meaning, if they say that that minor is making vigor 50% more effective, we are talking about 150% of vigor effectiveness with the changes.

Meaning:
- Vigor right now: 2x the endurance gain (100%)

- Untraited vigor with the changes: 1,5x the endurance gain (100% then, in comparison to now 50%)

- Traited vigor with the changes: 1,75x the endurance gain (150% then, in comparison to now 75%)

Hope you get what i mean

Yeah its 50% of 50%.

So if it did 100 points for example previously. Now it does 50 points, and the 50% up is 25 points bringing it to 75 points.

So its not even going to 100% of what it is now and even with the trait youre going to be at 75% of what it is now.

They really should have made it to be at least 100% more effective giving acro thieves the current status of vigor.

The “you can still dodge more than other classes” justification doesnt change the team fight survival that vigor gives thief. Vigor is a whole different idea and well acro thieves depend on it highly for survival.

Of all the thief things they could nerf, it would seem that survival would be the last on the list as that is where thief is currently the weakest.

If they wanted to nerf something, damage would make far more sense than survival.

anet better leave my dmg untouched

actually i think a little acro nerf was needed but not in this way, this is getting rid of any dmg acro offered while also nerfing the dodges you could get

something that’d hve to be worked on is general condi removal and the strength of traited stealth via SA – as well as the weak untraited stealth

Coronit.9432:

KrHome.1920:

Acro sucks bad now. Its effect is nerfed from 100 to 50% in general and raised to 100% again with Acrobatics. So with perma vigor (what is pretty hard to get btw.) now you have the same amount of endurance like before the patch with any class using vigor.

That makes no sense at all. I would even say, that with the endurance created by the dagger autoattack a D/X stealth thief will have about the same number of dodges as an acro thief PLUS stealth.

What were they thinking?

Tarkan.5609:

Meaning:
- Vigor right now: 2x the endurance gain (100%)

- Untraited vigor with the changes: 1,5x the endurance gain (100% then, in comparison to now 50%)

- Traited vigor with the changes: 1,75x the endurance gain (150% then, in comparison to now 75%)

Hope you get what i mean

Got it. And I hope they don’t do it that way! Then it would be even worse.

And don´t forget about the romoval of boonduration we had because of acrobatic. Some other classes got traits to compensate it. I think they forgot us. Less duration on every vigor. Withdraw on 18sec now, vigor on heal 5sec. Great…not.

According to one interview, here’s what they said;

…base player stats from 926 to 1000 and a large increase to base stats on equipment, which will account for the bulk of our missing stat points.

So this means that our vigor duration will also increase in the process.

Source: http://massivelyop.com/2015/04/23/exclusive-guild-wars-2-heart-of-thorns-interview-unwraps-specializations-and-traits/

I expect that 1) it’s from the same mind that’s behind the overall Vigor reduction (I guess they want to see fewer dodges); 2) it intends to counterbalance the fact that Acro will be doing more damage (and more burst) in the future than it does now.

The way it is phrased, yes, it means Acro’s Vigor gives 75%. They may not mean it that way (but they probably do).

Re: stat increases: Boon duration is not one of those attributes. The “926 to 1000” refers to Power, Precision, Toughness, and Vitality. Everyone lost boon duration from trait lines. Some got a portion back in a trait and some didn’t.

I think the vigor change is a step in the right direction, because dodge spamming is stupid, but it really did a number on Acrobatics. I’ll play around with it because some of the non-vigor traits look pretty sexy, but I suspect it won’t be enough to cover the opportunity cost of Critical Strikes with all those dead vigor traits.

Ocosh.5843:

Re: stat increases: Boon duration is not one of those attributes. The “926 to 1000” refers to Power, Precision, Toughness, and Vitality. Everyone lost boon duration from trait lines. Some got a portion back in a trait and some didn’t.

There are 2 parts. Player stats boost and gear stats boost. The boon duration may be on the latter.

Ocosh.5843:

I expect that 1) it’s from the same mind that’s behind the overall Vigor reduction (I guess they want to see fewer dodges); 2) it intends to counterbalance the fact that Acro will be doing more damage (and more burst) in the future than it does now.

The way it is phrased, yes, it means Acro’s Vigor gives 75%. They may not mean it that way (but they probably do).

Re: stat increases: Boon duration is not one of those attributes. The “926 to 1000” refers to Power, Precision, Toughness, and Vitality. Everyone lost boon duration from trait lines. Some got a portion back in a trait and some didn’t.

Where will acro do more damage then? Am I missing something? Yeah, stats-increase etc. But everyone gets that.

@Sir Vincent III
“The boon duration may be on the latter.”
What do you mean with that?
If the boon duration gonna be added into gear like power/precision/boon duration then I don´t think anyone would take it except when its so much to be OP

Coronit.9432:

Where will acro do more damage then? Am I missing something? Yeah, stats-increase etc. But everyone gets that.

Sorry, could have been clearer. I meant no connection between the first part and the stats part — responses to two different things. More damage as they will now have Panick Strike and Executioner.

Coronit.9432:

@Sir Vincent III
“The boon duration may be on the latter.”
What do you mean with that?
If the boon duration gonna be added into gear like power/precision/boon duration then I don´t think anyone would take it except when its so much to be OP

We already have the boon duration on our gears. If they are increasing the player’s stats, then it is safe to assume that they are also going to increase the gear’s stats.

One thing is clear though. With the latest changes to the traits and skills, I doubt they had enough time to test these changes so by the time this patch comes out, everything will be out of whack and incomplete.

Quoting myself from different thread:

Especially when all the specs get up to 4 traits melted into one (cough mesmer cough) and get lots of them baseline. Meanwhile S/D thieves? feline grace nerfed from 15 endurance to 6.67(that no longer stacks with vigor because it is vigor), -10%damage, -25% vigor effectiveness. Yes, arenanet, S/D thieves were already pushed out of the meta but nerf them more, great idea. Yup, all the other classes get vigor nerf too but that wasn’t their unique way of survival.
S/D is real fun and requires skill so I hope they made the vigor changes without thieves and in mind and they gonna reevaluate the situation

Thieves die for making a single mistake in terms of dodging anyway so these gain vigor/initiative on successful evade dont incentivise anything good. Thief has lo base hp, low armor, no extra sustain. This in my opinion has the opposite effect compared to what they are attempting to achieve: they move the emphasis from dodging important skills to just dodge anything. Totally wrong approach.

Good thieves have being playing 26006 S/D in duels and doing completely good.
not sure how this nerf would do a lot except for bad thieves who just spam dodges, 6 in acrobat still gives more dodge then others and they are nerfing dodging for all by nerfing vigor.

lighter.2708:

Good thieves have being playing 26006 S/D in duels and doing completely good.
not sure how this nerf would do a lot except for bad thieves who just spam dodges, 6 in acrobat still gives more dodge then others and they are nerfing dodging for all by nerfing vigor.

A lot of people refer to balance in terms of duels and I never really understand why as in any game mode landing a 1v1 is pretty rare and I thank the MMO gods for it when it happens.

Most of the time, youre in team fights whether PvP or WvW unless you are specifically dueling with the purpose of dueling. This is where this hurts is in team fights where there is a ton of crap being laid down from engies or any aoe class and you are fighting other stuff and you need those dodges. Thieves dont have anything but stealth and dodge really for defense. Yeah the few times you get to 1v1 you should still be good, but thats really not the majority of my fights.

I just dont see how you can measure balance in terms of duels in this game. I mean it would be right for them to at least make that skill 100% more effective bringing to its current state as its vital to thief defense.

What exactly is the goal of nerfing vigor? Do reduce the amount of dodges? Or to reduce skilless dodge spamming? For a thief, dodging is one of the main methods to survive. Why not change Endless Stamina to something like this…

Endless Stamina
Restores 25% (or even 50%) of endurance on a successful evade.

Even restoring 10-15% per evade with no cooldown seems feasible. At least it would only benefit skilled evasion, not spam. It would also give some counterplay to a ranger’s Rapid Shot.

Ocosh.5843:

Coronit.9432:

Where will acro do more damage then? Am I missing something? Yeah, stats-increase etc. But everyone gets that.

Sorry, could have been clearer. I meant no connection between the first part and the stats part — responses to two different things. More damage as they will now have Panick Strike and Executioner.

Outside from the improved stats I don´t think its a that strong damage improvement. We loose fluid-strikes, gain Exposed Weakness – we loose power of inertia, gain executioner. power of inertia was an always damage buff with that might. Executioner is bind to the target being under 50%. Not sure how much better that 20% under 50% exactly are. Panic strike is definitly something good.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Coronit.9432:

@Sir Vincent III
“The boon duration may be on the latter.”
What do you mean with that?
If the boon duration gonna be added into gear like power/precision/boon duration then I don´t think anyone would take it except when its so much to be OP

We already have the boon duration on our gears. If they are increasing the player’s stats, then it is safe to assume that they are also going to increase the gear’s stats.

One thing is clear though. With the latest changes to the traits and skills, I doubt they had enough time to test these changes so by the time this patch comes out, everything will be out of whack and incomplete.

Wait, where do you have that boon-duration on your gear? Do you use doubloons? If they increase the duration on these I don´t thnk anyone would use them except when they are so OP to try them out. Giving up damage for them isn´t a good way.

nightblood.7910:

lighter.2708:

Good thieves have being playing 26006 S/D in duels and doing completely good.
not sure how this nerf would do a lot except for bad thieves who just spam dodges, 6 in acrobat still gives more dodge then others and they are nerfing dodging for all by nerfing vigor.

A lot of people refer to balance in terms of duels and I never really understand why as in any game mode landing a 1v1 is pretty rare and I thank the MMO gods for it when it happens.

Most of the time, youre in team fights whether PvP or WvW unless you are specifically dueling with the purpose of dueling. This is where this hurts is in team fights where there is a ton of crap being laid down from engies or any aoe class and you are fighting other stuff and you need those dodges. Thieves dont have anything but stealth and dodge really for defense. Yeah the few times you get to 1v1 you should still be good, but thats really not the majority of my fights.

I just dont see how you can measure balance in terms of duels in this game. I mean it would be right for them to at least make that skill 100% more effective bringing to its current state as its vital to thief defense.

former acro has way too much sustain in 5v5 for the damage it outputs anyway, even tho it’s not as much as d/p, but the survive/damage ratio is way too high.

lighter.2708:

nightblood.7910:

lighter.2708:

Good thieves have being playing 26006 S/D in duels and doing completely good.
not sure how this nerf would do a lot except for bad thieves who just spam dodges, 6 in acrobat still gives more dodge then others and they are nerfing dodging for all by nerfing vigor.

A lot of people refer to balance in terms of duels and I never really understand why as in any game mode landing a 1v1 is pretty rare and I thank the MMO gods for it when it happens.

Most of the time, youre in team fights whether PvP or WvW unless you are specifically dueling with the purpose of dueling. This is where this hurts is in team fights where there is a ton of crap being laid down from engies or any aoe class and you are fighting other stuff and you need those dodges. Thieves dont have anything but stealth and dodge really for defense. Yeah the few times you get to 1v1 you should still be good, but thats really not the majority of my fights.

I just dont see how you can measure balance in terms of duels in this game. I mean it would be right for them to at least make that skill 100% more effective bringing to its current state as its vital to thief defense.

former acro has way too much sustain in 5v5 for the damage it outputs anyway, even tho it’s not as much as d/p, but the survive/damage ratio is way too high.

former, you mean how it is now? Sustain still very good with the amount of dodges. Damage? Seriously? S/D got pushed out of the meta because of lacking in damage.
Atm D/P is superior.
I speak about tpvp btw, not wvw
Do you even play thief?

Coronit.9432:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Coronit.9432:

@Sir Vincent III
“The boon duration may be on the latter.”
What do you mean with that?
If the boon duration gonna be added into gear like power/precision/boon duration then I don´t think anyone would take it except when its so much to be OP

We already have the boon duration on our gears. If they are increasing the player’s stats, then it is safe to assume that they are also going to increase the gear’s stats.

One thing is clear though. With the latest changes to the traits and skills, I doubt they had enough time to test these changes so by the time this patch comes out, everything will be out of whack and incomplete.

Wait, where do you have that boon-duration on your gear? Do you use doubloons? If they increase the duration on these I don´t thnk anyone would use them except when they are so OP to try them out. Giving up damage for them isn´t a good way.

Last time I checked, Sigils ad Runes are part of gears…I guess I might be wrong.

The problem with acro now is that you can literally spam dodges and skillessly negate your opponents efforts

1v1 this is broken.

Now since I’m a realist I know that the only way to fight on point is tone have the current acro because the rest of the classes are mindlessly spamming AoEs.

So while I support the acro nerf I must also lobby for less face roll from the other classes. Its only fair imho

The full Ready Up episode talking about these changes is up at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pbdl5WoAI90

The part talking about acrobatics starts at about 4:31:00 and it looks like Endless Stamina actually stacks multiplicity meaning its only 75% increase, or 25% nerf to the current Vigor stamina rate.

My biggest issue is that I am feeling forced to trait into Trickery just to get Bountiful Theft; I also currently do not use weapon combos with an innate chance to evade. Vigor was not so essential with the old Feline Grace mechanic so I will need to put more thought into my play to maintain it. I am however quite jealous of the following traits which are arguably better than our current options:

Engineer
Adrenal Implant: Endurance regeneration is increased by 50%.
Invigorating Speed: When you gain swiftness you also gain 6s of vigor. This trait has a 5 second internal cooldown.
Optimized Activation: Using a toolbelt skill grants 2s of vigor.

Ranger
Natural Vigor: Increases your endurance regeneration by 20%.
Primal Reflexes: When you successfully evade an attack gain 5s of Vigor. This trait has a 8 second internal cooldown.

Guardian
Purity of Body: Your virtue of resolve passive effect also regenerates endurance by 15%.
Vigorous Precision: Gain 5 seconds of vigor when you deliver a critical hit. This effect has a 10 second internal cooldown.

Elementalist
Renewing Stamina: Gain vigor when you deliver a critical hit. This effect has a 5 second internal cooldown.

Mesmer
Critical Infusion: Gain vigor for 5s when you critical hit.

That being said, I am definitely happy with the change to Hard to Catch – this with the Signet of Agility will still give me the chance to get some vigor from evading.

A slight tangent, but I thought I would also mention acro is getting a huge dps nerf.

Assuming you have a power of 2400, getting 5 might and the 10% damage buff equates to (2400+30*5)*1.1 = 2805. That equates to a loss of 405 power under the new acro system. What has always made acro desirable for me was that it was a defensive trait line, but it allowed you to dish out more damage than a shadow arts build.

Gallant Pigeon.5807:

A slight tangent, but I thought I would also mention acro is getting a huge dps nerf.

Assuming you have a power of 2400, getting 5 might and the 10% damage buff equates to (2400+30*5)*1.1 = 2805. That equates to a loss of 405 power under the new acro system. What has always made acro desirable for me was that it was a defensive trait line, but it allowed you to dish out more damage than a shadow arts build.

^ this.

Although, you will be able to spec into 3 lines now, which gives you the chance to spec into a damage-oriented line such as DA or CS, which may make up for the might loss.

In general I feel the trait changes are good, we’re getting a lot more viable build diversity.

However, we are getting some nerfs which feel completely unjustified. D/P, arguably our strongest weapon set, is least affected. I just can’t help but feel thieves are going to be left pigeon holed in D/P as an optimal build choice.

General:
- Basilisk venom stun duration reduced from 1.5 seconds to 1 second. A knee jerk reaction to venom share being too strong in parties. This elite skill is almost complete garbage now, especially when you consider how easily dodged / blinded / blocked it is. Buff non traited venoms, nerf venom share, the community has been saying this for a long time.

S/D:
- Acro losing around 450 power (assuming you are using power of inertia).
- Acro dodge regeneration (50% endurance) increased to 5 seconds, previously being 3.5 seconds.
- Boon rips will be random, removes skillful removal of enemy boons. Good chance of ripping boons of low duration e.g. enemy’s swiftness which has only 1 second left. This combined with the stability change is essentially a huge nerf to boon removal.
- Chill and cripple being nerfed into oblivion, dagger offhand #4 almost completely useless now.
- Swiftness does not affect leap skill. This is a massive nerf for flanking strike. Anyone who plays at a high level will be using swiftness to connect S/D #3 when just out of melee range.

D/D:
- Cloaked in Shadows moved to grandmaster. The already weak D/D set is now forced to choose between blinds and heals.
- Chill and cripple being nerfed into oblivion, dagger offhand #4 almost completely useless now.
Also, if you WvW:
- Cloak and Dagger damage decreased by ~17% in PvE.

P/P
- Ricochet removed. Means thieves are back to 900 range only.
- Pistol mastery removed. Loss of 10% damage.