Guild Wars 2

This is an argument to improve Thief versatility by enhancing x/P builds. I understand that it includes Dagger/Pistol, so it may encounter natural resistance. However, please keep an open mind and read through the reasoning before drawing your conclusion.

Thank you! :-)

1. The reason the Thief is viable in Conquest: Mobility

That’s really what the Thief is about in sPvP. To get to empty points quickly and decap them. Secondarily, to quickly get to fair fights and make them unfair. What allows this? “Out of Combat” (OoC) mobility and Vertical mobility. Unfortunately, as a weapon set, the Shortbow holds a monopoly over these, especially Vertical mobility.

2. The way to create diversity in Thief builds: Make the Shortbow redundant

While the Shortbow does have its uses, the all-but-exclusive reason it is chosen as a second weapon set is because of one skill: Infiltrator’s Arrow. What makes this even worse is that the Shortbow is a two-handed weapon, requiring the Thief to commit to its full 5 skills when it needs only one of them. If it were a one-handed weapon, it would allow much more versatility in Thief builds. So that is what this argument proposes: to give the mobility of the Shortbow to a one-handed weapon. In this way, the Shortbow retains its full capability, but is no longer a requirement for merely one skill.

3. The proposed skill and change to give mobility: Black Powder

Basically, make Black Powder work like Infiltrator’s Arrow. It becomes a ground-targeted skill. Instead of creating a Smoke Field at the player’s position and then firing a blinding projectile, it will first fire a projectile that will explode into a Smoke Field. The Thief will then shadowstep to the projectile’s impact point, ending up in the center of the Smoke Field as normal.

4. Why Black Powder is the perfect candidate

Black Powder and Infiltrator’s Arrow share many similarities…

• They are both projectiles
• They are both blinding skills
• They both have a range of 900
• They both have a radius of 120
• They both cost 6 initiative
• They are both #5 skills
• Neither of them are used for damage

5. Builds that would directly benefit from this change: D/P, S/P, P/P

All of these builds would gain inherent OoC and Vertical mobility. Their “In Combat” (IC) mobility would also be improved…

• D/P already has IC engagement mobility with Shadow Shot, but would gain disengagement mobilty.

• S/P already has both IC engagement and disengagement mobility with Infiltrator’s Strike and Infiltrator’s Return, but with the recent nerf on jump-Infiltrator’s Strike, it needs an increase in OoC mobility

• P/P stands the most to gain out of this change. While it has little use for IC engagement mobility, it desperately needs disengagement mobility. With this change, it will be able to reposition or run when being overrun.

6. How other builds would indirectly benefit from this change

This is actually the main reason for the change. By giving x/P builds the same mobility that Shortbow has, the Shortbow becomes redundant for mobility reasons. It also means that 4 of 8 Thief weapon sets will have mobility built into them. That’s half of the Thief’s weapon sets! If you need mobility, you can select any x/P or the Shortbow for one set, then take your Staff or x/D set of your choice. This means two ACTUAL combat weapon sets while maintaining mobility (viability)!

7. Why this would benefit other weapon sets more than D/P

Realistically, D/P is already THE set for the Thief to use in sPvP. However, the set itself lacks OoC and Vertical mobility, and without it, D/P cannot maintain viability. It is therefore required to gain that mobility, and the only weapon set that grants that is the Shortbow. So it is virtually required for a D/P Thief to select the Shortbow as the second weapon set. If the Shortbow was no longer required for mobility, then the D/P Thief would be free to choose any other combat weapon set instead and still remain viable.

Yes, the D/P set itself would be enhanced even more than it is, but that enhancement will not be exclusive to D/P. And the only thing it gains is mobility. However, in the current game, the D/P Thief will already have that mobility because it will also have the Shortbow.

The bottom line is that D/P is THE weapon set for the Thief if (s)he wishes to be viable. Seemingly, nothing is set to change that. However, by giving it what the Shortbow already allows it to do, other weapon sets will find much greater use and viability. And again, S/P and P/P are also getting the same enhancements. In short, the D/P set gains little more than what the D/P + Shortbow combination allows now… but the D/P Thief will gain the combat potential of other weapon sets just as those weapon sets will gain the combat potential of x/P sets.

And again, nothing is forcing D/P for other sets. A x/D Thief could just as well sake S/P or P/P for fun while still gaining the new mobility.

8. What this means for the Thief as a whole

Increased diversity. Increased combat potential by using multiple combat weapon sets while retaining the mobility that makes the Thief viable. All in all, it makes the Thief a stronger fighter by slightly improving its IC mobility, but mainly by giving more adaptability with the use of multiple combat styles due to using multiple combat weapon sets. And it does all of this simply by adding mobility to one skill… no damage increases, no evades, no conditions, no traits, etc.

9. How this affects the Shortbow’s current use

The Shortbow is not touched at all. It plays exactly the same. Players who love the Shortbow can continue to play exactly the same way as they are used to. It only makes the Shortbow a choice instead of a requirement for viability.

10. How this affects Black Powder’s current use

Black Powder can work almost exactly as is does now. It can be ground targeted at the player’s feet, allowing for the Smoke Field to be created at the player’s position as it does now. If shot at range, the player would still end up in the middle of the Smoke Field as it is now, only both the player and the Smoke Field would be at a different location. If the projectile hits a target, the target will still be blinded by the Smoke Field. Whether the projectile should retain its minimal damage is completely debatable.

The only real loss would be Black Powder’s ability to blind a target while maintaining distance. This would mainly affect P/P as it is not a melee set. If that is such an important ability, I would suggest adding a blind to Body Shot as its in need of improvement. But again, P/P would be gaining the ability to reposition or disengage, so the blind may not be nearly as necessary as it is currently.

11. Conclusion

This may not be the perfect solution. But is there a perfect solution? Personally, I see it as a very viable solution to solve many of the Thief’s problems without really breaking anything else… or, at least, a good first step.

Yes, just as with any enhancement to x/P, it will naturally make D/P stronger. However, the improvement to D/P should be rather minimal compared to the improvements to other x/P builds and to the Thief as a whole. And honestly, I don’t believe it would be a bad thing for the Thief to be strengthened in this post-HoT era.

If you do not agree with this proposal, that is completely fine. If you have alternative solutions, please present them. This is all about improving the Thief and making it more viable. However, I would request that any criticism be limited to the constructive variety. It doesn’t further the discussion to just say something would be “broken.” Suggesting alternative improvements would do much more. And that’s the goal… to improve, not keep the status quo.

Thank you! :-D

P.S. I have absolutely nothing against giving mobility to x/D sets. I just see Black Powder being so easily converted, that is why I specify it. For example, I’d be fine with mobility on Dancing Dagger or whatever other way you could do so for x/D. Personally, I haven’t been able to think of such improvements specifically, so I’ll let you guys have at that! :-)

would be awesome to get. The result might be shortbow gets deleted…

Wolfric.9380:

would be awesome to get. The result might be shortbow gets deleted…

Ah, the desired goal certainly isn’t to delete Shortbow. However, I could see this change as opening up the Shortbow itself to receive improvements because it would no longer hold exclusive control over mobility as it does now. Perhaps giving it more combat potential.

Of course, that’s a different issue altogether, and really only necessary if this change becomes reality. But here’s to that hope! :-)

i would be ok with this if it was something like 300 – 500 range asking them to put a double of what short bow does it honestly not good way to go about balance. only weapon set that really get a boost in movement from a mech change is P/P

Sword main hand if you have a target can go threw walls on any axis
Dagger main hand shadow shot can go up on x axis if you have a target.
So only pistol main hand is really getting buff her because it has no movement to begin with.

Seriously guys: Go D/D in your preferred game mode for a bit, then switch back to D/P and see how good you have it. No need to ask for more buffs – I mean that, sorry.

Jana.6831:

Seriously guys: Go D/D in your preferred game mode for a bit, then switch back to D/P and see how good you have it. No need to ask for more buffs – I mean that, sorry.

I’d love to go D/D… or S/D like I used to. The problem is that Shortbow is glued into the second slot. This isn’t about making D/P better, it’s about making the Shortbow unneeded so we can use a secondary weapon set of our choice while still remaining viable.

The problem is that no matter what primary weapon set you choose, the Shortbow is a virtual requisite in the secondary slot… especially for sPvP.

As it stands now, a Thief must choose between viability and fun. If the Shortbow could be replaced without losing mobility, then the Thief could remain viable while still allowing fun.

So again, it’s not really a pro-D/P proposal, it’s more of an anti-Shortbow proposal. And even then, it’s not so much anti-Shortbow as it is anti-monopoly over mobility.

Even just thinking of the possible outcomes if this change went through, I could totally see potential for P/P with S/x builds… perhaps even rivaling D/P. Being able to use P/P for mobility and high damage while using S/D to enter melee with stacks of Might. Sadly, P/P is currently being held back by lack of mobility. And even for those who continue to play D/P, I can see P/P becoming the main replacement for the Shortbow, which would make the average Thief so much more lethal… and a much better match against Dragonhunters.

Only for pvp (ETA: and even there some thieves have switched to staff) and it’s the same for every other weaponset.
With that change D/P would be completely and grossly OP – and it already pretty much is – that’s why I said you guys should run another set for a while so you get where you are coming from.

How about: “I want #2-5 skill tied to 1” ?

You could also ask for some SB buff, that would make more sense than pushing D/P further.

on Pistol 2 it would be much better :-)

D/P definitely doesn’t need that extra mobility on x/P
S/P doesn’t need it to function well
P/P can get its mobility through other means if it finds itself still lacking.

I believe the main purpose for the proposal is being lost.
This is not about enhancing D/P or x/P or any other such thing.

The purpose is to make the Shortbow unneeded for its Out of Combat and Vertical mobility.

The result would be the Thief having an actual choice of two weapon sets instead of always requiring a specific one.

Currently, the Thief build choice is: X + Shortbow
The goal is to make it: X + X

To give mobility to Black Powder would quadruple the available options. For example, out of the 8 weapon sets…

Currently: 7 × 1
Proposed: 7 × 4

Ghotistyx.6942:

D/P definitely doesn’t need that extra mobility on x/P
S/P doesn’t need it to function well
P/P can get its mobility through other means if it finds itself still lacking.

I believes that sums up this argument.

D/P and S/P do not need the extra In Combat mobility. That’s because they already have them. P/P may be able to gain it by other means, though it stands the most to gain in itself.

What is the main gain that D/P (specifically) would achieve from this change? When taken in isolation as a set, D/P gains virtually only the ability to do what it can already do without switching to Shortbow. But that is also true for S/P and P/P. When viewed as a whole, however, D/P gains the added combat potential of D/D, S/D, P/D, P/P, S/P, or Staff as a second set while remaining 100% as viable.

In short, it slightly boosts the staying power of x/P sets while radically increasing the combat potential of every Thief not taking the Shortbow… while remaining 100% as viable as before.

Again, this isn’t about adding ability to a specific build itself. It’s about consolidating a build’s ability into a single set in order to improve diversity…

New D/P = Old D/P + Shortbow
New S/P = Old S/P + Shortbow
New P/P = Old P/P + Shortbow

It’s simply subtracting the Shortbow while retaining mobility. That is the entire purpose. It would be achieved just as well by making the Shortbow an F3 kit, which is perfectly fine with me.

The Shortbow’s monopoly on Out of Combat and Vertical mobility is like having the ability to Steal locked into a traitline with absolutely no other useful traits. Every Thief who wants to win will be required to take it, but they are losing out on an entire traitline just for that one ability. It would be better to just make Steal baseline or to give access to it through several other traitlines.

Let’s imagine if this change were implemented, and let’s think of some scenarios.

*D/P*
You are about to engage an enemy. What do you do with your new Black Powder ability? Use it to blind and stay in melee range? Why would you do that when you have a much cheaper and harder hitting skill in Shadow Shot? Black Powder’s change would only offer the ability to disengage/kite without being locked into Shortbow for 10 seconds.

S/P
You are about to engage an enemy. What does the new Black Powder offer you? You already have a lower costing Infiltrator’s Strike for engagement. You have Infiltrator’s Return for disengagement for very cheap. Infiltrator’s Strike already immobilizes a target, so Black Powder isn’t really needed to maintain melee. Perhaps you could Black Powder -> pre-cast Pistol Whip in the middle of a fight, but you’d have to aim very well, and you’d be more accurate pre-casting with Steal… not to mention that it would use most of your initiative.

P/P
This is where I can see Black Powder getting much more use. Engaging an enemy at range. If he gets too close, Black Powder yourself away and continue to fire. However, initiative must be used effectively, because you’ll be having to balance the power of Unload with the escapability of Black Powder. However, you would no longer need the Shortbow to get around, making this the perfect ranged Power set to compliment a melee set.

As for out of combat scenarios, that’s what the change is all about. They would be able to move around just as they would if they had the Shortbow. Only now, they can have an actual combat set at the ready… both on the move and also when they need to change tactics mid-fight.

It is, no matter how you turn it – it is to make anything else but D/P obsolete.
With that you’d have no cooldown on weaponswap anymore, you’d be free to take any other set and so on – there would be absolutely no downside to take D/P anymore as then it’d have everything on it.

It would be a nice addition to the other X/P sets but they’re underused anyway due to other reasons than a missing port.

And yes, I’m disappointed.

ETA: We could delete SS though and add a X/P port – that would be fair.

Jana.6831:

It is, no matter how you turn it – it is to make anything else but D/P obsolete.

I think that is basically the case already. Not so much that other sets are obsolete, but that they simply cannot compete with D/P for combat or Shortbow for mobility. The main difference between how it is now and how it would be if the change were implemented is other weapon sets would actually be used and actually be viable as well.

Think of it this way…

D/P is like a bomb. It does a lot of damage. But in order to deliver the bomb, you need to get it to the target. The Shortbow is like an airplane that will do that.

Other weapon sets are like bombs also, but they simply are not as powerful or as dependable as D/P. Yet they also need a delivery system, so they also have to take the Shortbow.

If you are required to take Shortbow anyway, and you can only take one bomb, it makes sense to take the most powerful bomb you can. That is D/P.

What this change does is transform x/P sets from bombs into a missiles. It gives them their own method of delivery. So instead of having to take both a bomb and an airplane, now, you can to take two missiles… or strap a bomb onto a missile. It’s not about making any one bomb deadlier on its own, it’s about giving the Thief a larger payload capacity… two bombs instead of one.

Jana.6831:

ETA: We could delete SS though and add a X/P port – that would be fair.

I’m not against further changes, whatever may be needed. But this concept is based on one simple change to one skill, leading to a revolution in new Thief diversity. Other changes to other skills are completely open for discussion.

I said everything I had to say on this topic.
And yes, I’m still disappointed – thought you knew better.

ETA: Or at least would drop this after your first “lets nerf D/P – I’m proposing this gigantic buff for thief D/P” thread which was the exactly same thing.

I still mean it: Play an other set than D/P for a bit.

i really disagree with topic i think making other traits as efficient as meta ones like DA and DD and trickery then you can have more diversity between ones because only acrobatic was used because it had trait might on dodge/evade made it so s/d was quite good for the types of builds was out there like if you nerf SB “again” you just encourage staff which is like bad version SB which makes bad results like if you take all defensive traits from DD then put them in to acrobatics then take all offensive traits from acrobatics put in them in to DD you might able to have lot more diversity between traits lines as well the weapon sets hence new interesting meta where thief can be anything is which was very scary in past if you was vsing s/d thief or d/p or p/p etc because traits as well encourages more thought processing between fighting / thinking about builds which can be efficient / synergise better with traits / weapon sets alike also i think thief is used lot more than you think in pvp if you was more thinking in soloq preference

Edited

as well adding olds traits back in to the game such as ricochet but merging it with another trait so people have to make harder choices in their builds to bring out where choices they made such as if they made a team-fighting build over a plus+1 build so build have interesting weakness / strength which makes game fun again to learn without having make obvious picks in traits lines / weapon sets

And that’s the point, if you want access to shortbow mobility in middle of combat, you have to pay a price for that because it is really kittening strong for a weapon skill.

Giving that mobility to x/p would be terrible design and just spread the gap between /d and /p even more.

The d/p, and s/p sets already have teleports from their 3, or 2 skill. And on flat ground HS has the same mobility as IA.

The greater punishment comes from d/p having both HS and BP.
That impacts s/d, s/p, p/d, and p/p because none of them can self combo for stealth.
BD from the DD line helped p/p and s/p, buts it’s still a very long way to go.

The evades of d/d and s/d still can’t compete with d/p because CaD steath is melee, and requires you to be in harms way, or to waste a teleport.

What is a far more serious problem than all meta pvp builds running shortbow. Is that the only current replacement to d/p is staff.

Staff has no stealth on it, from skills or self-combo. What it has is a skill 3 vastly superior to skill 3 on s/d (Less cast, greater distance, same initiatve, removes immobilize, and who cares about boon steal anymore when necros can convert them all for you, and you couldn’t kill the boon spam classes with s/d anyway).

If s/d, and d/d are supposed to be the middleground between d/p and staff, they certainty don’t show it.

Contrary to the OP’s premise, P/P doesn’t need to teleport in, in fact it needs a teleport out. This proposition will ruin P/P once again with a BP “buff/nerf”. I take personal issue on unnecessary nerfs to P/P.

No.

The way it works now is perfect, and I would focus on reverting the nerfs to your SB instead of this. Get Cluster Bomb’s damage back, and the duration back on poison field. This would make your SB more than just a method for mobility.

As for the D/D brigade….sorry but the current viable iteration of D/D is condi. That build is on the same skill level as the current meta DH builds. Yes I just said Dagger Dagger build is low skill.

Azukas.1426:

No.

The way it works now is perfect, and I would focus on reverting the nerfs to your SB instead of this. Get Cluster Bomb’s damage back, and the duration back on poison field. This would make your SB more than just a method for mobility.

As for the D/D brigade….sorry but the current viable iteration of D/D is condi. That build is on the same skill level as the current meta DH builds. Yes I just said Dagger Dagger build is low skill.

The condi version certainly is skill-less. The people defending otherwise are typically very, very poor players.

Which is why I vouch to remove the condition application from DB, make it a proper evade/re-positioning tool, and put conditions on Dancing Dagger, instead, with normalized power damage. Then fix this stealth attack nonsense, make CnD more consistent, and nerf Shadow Shot’s power coefficient.

If D/D had a disengage or more raw mobility over D/P, we’d see more viability and diversity, for D/P then serves as a better raw gank set with some more utility while D/D would get better combat prowess to justify taking it.

Azukas.1426:

No.

The way it works now is perfect, and I would focus on reverting the nerfs to your SB instead of this. Get Cluster Bomb’s damage back, and the duration back on poison field. This would make your SB more than just a method for mobility.

As for the D/D brigade….sorry but the current viable iteration of D/D is condi. That build is on the same skill level as the current meta DH builds. Yes I just said Dagger Dagger build is low skill.

They will never buff /p becaue that involves d/p.

With an initiative system the cd on weapon swap is the only thing preventing bad thieves from resetting. If you mess up to the point of needing vertical mobility, you should not be able to re-enter stealth without using a cd.
Especially because they have daredevil.

For example if a dumb DD uses throw gunk and reveals themself they can triple dash away if necessary. But to add vertical movements with self comboed stealth means there is no punishment. They can teleport up to avoid unevadeable walls. And they only have to wait for HD and CaD to come off cooldown before they are back in stealth. Rather than what currently happen when extremely mobility puts a 10 second cooldown on gaining stealth with initative.

D/P was the only set that has been indirectly buffed since the traitmerge June 23th 2015. Maybe it was coincidence but I don’t think anet objects to buffing offhand pistol because of D/P.

DeceiverX.8361:

Azukas.1426:

No.

The way it works now is perfect, and I would focus on reverting the nerfs to your SB instead of this. Get Cluster Bomb’s damage back, and the duration back on poison field. This would make your SB more than just a method for mobility.

As for the D/D brigade….sorry but the current viable iteration of D/D is condi. That build is on the same skill level as the current meta DH builds. Yes I just said Dagger Dagger build is low skill.

The condi version certainly is skill-less. The people defending otherwise are typically very, very poor players.

Which is why I vouch to remove the condition application from DB, make it a proper evade/re-positioning tool, and put conditions on Dancing Dagger, instead, with normalized power damage. Then fix this stealth attack nonsense, make CnD more consistent, and nerf Shadow Shot’s power coefficient.

If D/D had a disengage or more raw mobility over D/P, we’d see more viability and diversity, for D/P then serves as a better raw gank set with some more utility while D/D would get better combat prowess to justify taking it.

The problem with dancing dagger for applying conditions is it just turns D/D into a ranged condition set which we already have. Further to that unlike spike damage which one can get via power , a person applying conditions via dancing dagger needs to survive long enough for those conditions to do enough damage to prevail. d/d has no real survival mechanism.

The P/D set at least offers benefit to the condition user in that from stealth one can use sneak attack for bleed stacking. There no such thing on the stealthed d/d set. p/d also has the port away with torment.

There simply no way any would take a condition build under your scenario usind d/d.

The fact remains that with the AA closed to meaningful condition damage either via the AA chain or sneak attack , there has to be substantial condition apps from the other attacks in the set. If this limited to dancing dagger then you recreate the same problem , just shifting it to another location while removing survival meaning the set becomes useless.

If there a shift of bleed away from DB than the only way the set can be made to work in a condition build is if the following occurs ion some combination.

1>More poison/bleed stacks added to the AA chain. This is up close and personal and no thief, no matter their armor can survive long using AA attacks so there has to be better payoff then 1 stack of poison in an AA chain.

2>A condition app coming off DB in addition to the evade such as a weakness or a slow. A pure evade not enough. Adding another condition type (non damage type) allows meaningful choice.

3>Substantial stacks coming off the dancing dagger of damaging conditions. One or two stacks will just not do it. INI runs out too fast if relying one one skill to apply the damage doubly more so under your “DB is just an evade” scenario where INI burned just to survive.

4>More incentive to use CnD in a condition build.

babazhook.6805:

3>Substantial stacks coming off the dancing dagger of damaging conditions. One or two stacks will just not do it. INI runs out too fast if relying one one skill to apply the damage doubly more so under your “DB is just an evade” scenario where INI burned just to survive.

That will make P/D a condition damage powerhouse, so why use D/D after all that?

There is no way to change 1-2-4-5 without harming other weapon set, there’s just no way. D/D and P/P need to have their very own set of 5 weapon skills otherwise it will be an endless back-and-forth-suggestions that really leads to nowhere.

It seems that the Dev has set us up to dance in eternal tango.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

babazhook.6805:

3>Substantial stacks coming off the dancing dagger of damaging conditions. One or two stacks will just not do it. INI runs out too fast if relying one one skill to apply the damage doubly more so under your “DB is just an evade” scenario where INI burned just to survive.

That will make P/D a condition damage powerhouse, so why use D/D after all that?

There is no way to change 1-2-4-5 without harming other weapon set, there’s just no way. D/D and P/P need to have their very own set of 5 weapon skills otherwise it will be an endless back-and-forth-suggestions that really leads to nowhere.

It seems that the Dev has set us up to dance in eternal tango.

Yep. It just a circle that goes around and around. I always loved the idea of the dual wield skills but it just makes balancing the sets impossible without putting all that which separates into number 3.

This is why in the current system Number 3 on d/d as just an evade can never work.

Staff does not have this limitation as it a two handed weapon so you can do whatever you want with every position on the weapon and not worry about balance elsewhere.

DeceiverX.8361:

Azukas.1426:

No.

The way it works now is perfect, and I would focus on reverting the nerfs to your SB instead of this. Get Cluster Bomb’s damage back, and the duration back on poison field. This would make your SB more than just a method for mobility.

As for the D/D brigade….sorry but the current viable iteration of D/D is condi. That build is on the same skill level as the current meta DH builds. Yes I just said Dagger Dagger build is low skill.

The condi version certainly is skill-less. The people defending otherwise are typically very, very poor players.

Which is why I vouch to remove the condition application from DB, make it a proper evade/re-positioning tool, and put conditions on Dancing Dagger, instead, with normalized power damage. Then fix this stealth attack nonsense, make CnD more consistent, and nerf Shadow Shot’s power coefficient.

If D/D had a disengage or more raw mobility over D/P, we’d see more viability and diversity, for D/P then serves as a better raw gank set with some more utility while D/D would get better combat prowess to justify taking it.

Again you speak from WvW full signet build stance. If you were to even run marauder gear with acro/trick/DD with your D/D set up you’d see all your complaints vanish. This is due to death blossom and the acro/DD synergy, but you refuse to change.

Jana.6831:

ETA: Or at least would drop this after your first “lets nerf D/P – I’m proposing this gigantic buff for thief D/P” thread which was the exactly same thing.

I still mean it: Play an other set than D/P for a bit.

That’s what I’m hoping for… to be able to play other sets and remain competitive. That’s why I do not understand the disappointment. I’m looking for a way to make D/D and every other non-D/P/non-Shortbow set more useful. I’m not for nerfing D/D. I’m all for buffing it. If you put the mobility on Dancing Dagger instead of Black Powder, that would be great to me, though I doubt you’d be happy.

I do play other sets occasionally. Everything but Staff because I’m non-HoT. But every time I do, I end up back to D/P in leagues when I’m trying to win. So I’m stuck with D/P for combat and Shortbow for mobility.

As for the other thread, I said that Shadow Shot was a mistake. Black Powder is MUCH more appropriate for this change for several reasons. And the original proposal was a nerf to Shadow Shot because it severely reduced its ability to hit a target, thus losing the blind and damage most of the time. That was before the second iteration which took selected targets into account. With Black Powder, none of that is an issue. It will also be unattached from Shadow Shot, allowing the latter skill to be balanced as needed.

Zaerah.1630:

Giving that mobility to x/p would be terrible design and just spread the gap between /d and /p even more.

Unfortunately, it seems that x/D builds are lacking a lot compared to D/P. But what would close the gap, I don’t know. It seems x/D players want to keep x/D characteristics unique from x/P. All I know is if x/D got this mobility change instead of x/P, I would be playing x/D all day long. I’d probably even go back to my original setup… D/D and S/D. I don’t use much Stealth anyway.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Contrary to the OP’s premise, P/P doesn’t need to teleport in, in fact it needs a teleport out. This proposition will ruin P/P once again with a BP “buff/nerf”. I take personal issue on unnecessary nerfs to P/P.

Black Powder would not be a Shadow Shot clone. It would be used just as Infiltrator’s Arrow is used… to reposition and escape. It will be the teleport out, although it could be used as a teleport in, even though I have no idea why you would use it that way unless you were planning to switch to a melee set afterwards.

So a P/P Thief would engage from range as normal. If an enemy got too close, the Thief would Black Powder away from the enemy while still being able to engage with P/P instead of having to switch to Shortbow to escape. He would simply escape/reposition with P/P now.

As I mentioned before, I would also propose that Body Shot be given a Blind due to Black Powder losing the ability to Blind while maintaining distance. Both skills would gain much more use.

Notice that a lot of the disagreements for this change comes from it being attached to x/P, which is certainly understandable as was the very first thing I stated in the original post. Black Powder is simply the most fitting skill that I can see for this change to take place.

However, the underlying issue is the monopoly of Out of Combat and Vertical mobility of the Shortbow. Eliminating that monopoly is the crux of the matter.

So please, let’s work on solving that problem.

This argument to enhance x/P builds is simply my proposed solution to that problem. It may not be the best solution, but it would work, even if it does cause other problems or create imbalances in weapon sets.

Buffing x/D builds is a great thing! Buffing non-D/P builds is a great thing! Buffing the Shortbow is a great thing! Even nerfing certain things may be good for balance…

But let’s at least spread OoC/Vertical mobility around. There’s no reason why only one weapon set has a stranglehold on it.

So please, if this Black Powder solution is not acceptable, let us propose new solutions to the problem. That is the goal… that is all that matters… to solve the problem.

P.S. Just as a personal opinion, I would much prefer to have a targeted shadowstep on Black Powder than having a Smoke Field. Talk about a nerf! Am I proposing that? No. But that is how I feel. I’m not attempting to destroy any builds or playstyles. Just making a minimal change to open up more choices for secondary weapon sets.

I have a thought.

What if CnD had a nominal gap closer added? Something around 300 units worth. Would that be a more positive change? Port in 300u, then stab animation for stealth. That would help power D/D do its thing and shouldn’t send P/D off to space. I suppose if you wanted to you could use it like Flashing Blade and burn 12ini to move 600u when chased, but that kind of inefficiency wouldn’t be too troublesome. This idea is starting to sound like something already mentioned…

@ Kageseigi:
D/P is the faceroll set of thief, you said it yourself “I’m playing other sets but I always end up with D/P.”

You have everything any thief can dream of on that set and want to make it even stronger.

Come on, really?

would be great if Anet took out d/p from Thief class and added it into a new class called daggerist-pistolier or something so they could finally start balancing Thief class based on its overall performance rather than a single weapon combination

Actually, here is quite a radical alternate proposal…

Switch the functionalities of Infiltrator’s Arrow and Black Powder….

Pistol #5: Infiltrator’s Shot
Fire a projectile to a targeted position. Shadowstep to that position. No Smoke Field.

Shortbow #5: Blinding Bomb
Fire a projectile to a targeted position. The projectile explodes, creating a Smoke Field, blinding nearby enemies. No shadowstep.

This removes on-demand Stealth from D/P itself, but it gives the ability to the Shortbow.

It removes the OoC and Vertical mobility from the Shortbow, but gives it to D/P, S/P, and P/P.

This gives every primary weapon set the ability to gain Stealth with the Shortbow as the second weapon.
But it also gives mobility to 3 of the 8 weapon sets instead of only one.
So if you like Stealth, Shortbow is your ideal choice. If you prefer mobility, you can go with an x/P set as your secondary.

Again, not perfect, but it is an alternative to the original proposal.
It brings D/P down a notch without the ability to Stealth itself.
It also makes the Shortbow much more effective at team support.

But talking about changing some playstyles! Wow!
The difference between this proposal and the original…

The original proposal takes absolutely nothing away from any set whatsoever.
This proposal completely changes half of the playsets by removing something from them even though they gain something in return.

That’s why I prefer the original, because it either does not change a weapon set or it only enhances it. And every weapon set other than the Shortbow will benefit from it either directly or indirectly, while also not removing anything from the Shortbow itself.

Ghotistyx.6942:

What if CnD had a nominal gap closer added? Something around 300 units worth. Would that be a more positive change? Port in 300u, then stab animation for stealth. That would help power D/D do its thing and shouldn’t send P/D off to space. I suppose if you wanted to you could use it like Flashing Blade and burn 12ini to move 600u when chased, but that kind of inefficiency wouldn’t be too troublesome. This idea is starting to sound like something already mentioned…

The main reason I don’t play D/D anymore is because of the lack of mobility to ensure CnD. So I combo it with Steal and Infiltrator’s Signet. When they are on cooldown, it makes it a lot more difficult to connect. Add all of the ways that the enemy can deny the Stealth even if it hits, and that just makes it frustrating. That’s not even mentioning the recent Backstab cooldown.

Personally, I would love such a gap closer on D/D, but I don’t play it much anymore, so it’s not really for me to argue. That’s not to say I don’t want to play it, but I’m not much into condi, and it doesn’t offer much to a power Thief in its current state, sadly.

But yes, one of the last D/D threads I remember had a gap closer suggested for CnD. I believe the opposition was based on it breaking D/D’s identity or style… making it feel too much like D/P or S/x.

Jana.6831:

@ Kageseigi:
D/P is the faceroll set of thief, you said it yourself “I’m playing other sets but I always end up with D/P.”

You have everything any thief can dream of on that set and want to make it even stronger.

Come on, really?

Actually, I never said it was a faceroll weapon set… at least, not that I’m aware. I have claimed that it is the superior Thief weapon set, and I don’t know many who will argue against that.

If it were a faceroll set, then a D/P Thief would be able to fight and win on point with it. Sadly, that’s not the case. No set can do so easily, especially not faceroll. I could argue that condi-D/D or perhaps even the Staff are more faceroll-qualified than D/P.

I go back to D/P because it does have the best fighting potential for a power Thief who does not have access to Staff. And I go back to the Shortbow, begrudgingly, because it is the ONLY weapon set that gives Out of Combat and Vertical mobility. In the game of Conquest, mobility is the only advantage the Thief has.

Unfortunately, that Out of Combat/Vertical mobility is what the D/P (and EVERY other) weapon set lacks. That is why the Shortbow is required even for D/P Thieves, and it’s a shame.

Like I said, please give me a way to ditch the Shortbow without losing what makes a Thief viable in the first place. Add it x/D… add it to F3… I don’t care. Just please let me take a second combat weapon set. I’d play S/D all day long. That would make me happy.

Unfortunately, I don’t know what would make you happy, though. Just from appearance, you seem to only want to nerf D/P. I’m not sure of your ideal changes. I know you play power D/D in WvW. I can understand the frustration. Power D/D is even worse off in sPvP. D/P is worse off also. That is why I want a real second weapon set… a second playstyle, but I cannot take one as long as the Shortbow is required for mobility.

I think you misunderstand me, however. I’m not a D/P fanboy. It’s merely the best weapon set the core Thief currently has in sPvP. If there were a better option, I would take it. I run different weapons in WvW, but there’s no real replacement for it in sPvP for an “assassin” type player. S/x is too slow, and D/D lacks mobility. I don’t even run D/P properly… I use DA/CS/T… I rarely go into Stealth, and I fight on point. As the alternative proposal at the top of this post suggests, I’d be perfectly fine with no Stealth on the set… I just need mobility… but I’m not looking to ruin anyone else’s playstyle, so that’s why the original proposal was made.

Of course you didn’t say it, but you said you always end up with D/P as the other sets are lacking.
Want me to duel you, me on D/P, you on any other thief set?
Get where I’m coming from?

ETA : The above was probably bad english..
Anyway: This is how this game turned out: Facerolling to victory. Not sure if you’ve seen it but I already said: “I want all weaponskills on my 1” – Back in the day people had to make up for what their sets were lacking, nowadays every skill is really useful – and that’s an army of D/D cele eles. D/P is no exception, and never was, to that. That’s why all other thief sets/weapons are “dead”.

ETA²: And I hope I don’t need to explain why stuff like this is bad. D/D needs to be buffed, yes, but only because all the other stuff in game is faceroll and the traits are randomly merged. It was fine before June 23 2015. I actually don’t get why anet are doing this. They screw a good portion of their playerbase because they make only one weaponset per class playable and they lose some more by not caring about balance. But alas, I don’t have the numbers, I don’t know if catering PvE players only is luctrative.
And your idea is for “PvE-players turned PvP players” as well. So maybe it will be in game a few months from now, along with another heavy nerf which only hurts all other sets, like usual.

Jana.6831:

Of course you didn’t say it, but you said you always end up with D/P as the other sets are lacking.
Want me to duel you, me on D/P, you on any other thief set?
Get where I’m coming from?

Yes, I understand your argument. I’m not arguing against that. Every skill that D/P has is very useful. It has damage, CC, utility, and Stealth all built in to itself. The other sets don’t. That is why the other sets are lacking. We agree on that, correct?

That’s why I use D/P in leagues where wins matter. Why would I go with an underpowered set? If I want fun, I’ll play unranked or hot join. But in ranked, even though I’m in lower divisions, why would I handicap my team by using a weapon set that is lacking? I’m already handicapping them enough by playing as Thief, but at least I can get around quickly with the Shortbow, and do decent damage with D/P while being able to survive.

I’m not arguing that D/P takes skill to play decently. But it does perform the best compared to other weapon sets when equal skill is involved. So I choose the best weapon because I’ll do the best with it… especially at my skill level.

HoT powercreep (if you want to call it a “creep”) is real. Even before HoT, the D/P Thief wasn’t able to fight on point well. After HoT, it’s even worse. So again, even though D/P may be the superior and most complete weapon set, I would still argue that it is not faceroll-caliber… at least not in sPvP.

Pre-HoT, I even used to “bunker” points with S/D in sPvP. I would 1v2 for extended time periods. It would usually take a 3rd opponent to kill me or force me off point. As soon as HoT hit, that ability disappeared.

Powercreep may not be a good thing, but I don’t see why handicapping myself is a good thing either. That’s why I play D/P these days. That’s why I glue the Shortbow to my second set. I’ve never made it a secret that I despise it, but use it for one skill only… the most important skill in the game that a Thief possesses.

Jana.6831:

Not sure if you’ve seen it but I already said: “I want all weaponskills on my 1”
……………………….
And your idea is for “PvE-players turned PvP players” as well.

I fear I don’t understand those statements.

Do you want all weapon skills on your 1? Or is that what others have said, and that’s how they become powerful?

I’m not for making D/P Thieves all powerful… or unkillable like Elementalists. What I do want is mobility on weapons other than the Shortbow. If D/P gets that mobility, that’s fine. If D/D gets it instead, great… I’ll play with it instead.

Unfortunately, the D/P + Shortbow combination is complete. It offers almost everything. It offers more than any other x/x + Shortbow combination. What I really want is an x/x + x/x combination that is complete including mobility. And that is currently unachievable because the Shortbow is the ONLY weapon set that offers the mobility needed. The reason is because without mobility, there is no point in having a Thief in sPvP.

The reason I see that as reasonable is for two reasons. First, mobility is required to be viable. Secondly, many other skills are shared between sets…

Backstab: D/D and D/P
Heartseeker: D/D and D/P
Tactical Strike: S/D and S/P
Infiltrator’s Strike: S/D and S/P
Sneak Attack: P/P and P/D
Body Shot: P/P and P/D
Dancing Dagger: D/D and S/D and P/D
Cloak and Dagger: D/D and S/D and P/D
Headshot: P/P and D/P and S/P
Black Powder: P/P and D/P and S/P

As important as mobility is to the Thief, you would think that there would be at least one skill that is shared between sets that provides Out of Combat and Vertical mobility. Mobility is the most important thing to a Thief in sPvP, even more so than damage.

It doesn’t have to be on x/P. Add it to x/D. Add it to S/x. Just please add it to a combat set. Keeping it on the Shortbow is fine. I just don’t want to be required to take the Shortbow to gain mobility.

As for the PvE statement, I’m not sure what you’re saying. I began as a PvE player. Started playing WvW somewhere around level 30, I believe. Spent most of my time in it. I didn’t start sPvP until I was well past 80, and only did so in order to improve my fighting skills for WvW… because finding a 1v1 in it to learn how to actually fight was a nightmare… at least on my server. I found sPvP to be much faster and more exciting than WvW, not to mention much more dependable on my computer… WvW still becomes unplayable when there’s a large group close by. And I don’t even need to mention the Desert Borderlands fiasco that emptied WvW of its players.

So yes, I supposed I’m suggesting it for a PvE turned PvP player. And honestly, I’m turning more and more back into an open-world PvE player recently because PvP and WvW are feeling rather pointless these days. Oddly enough, jumping puzzles are quite entertaining… and I’ve conquered my anxiety of the Not So Secret puzzle. I still don’t like it, but I don’t dread it like before… stupid diving achievement! :-(

Kageseigi.2150:

I just don’t want to be required to take the Shortbow to gain mobility.

Then don’t – nobody is forcing you.

Hey, I want SS but don’t want to be required to play D/P. I want BP but not offhand pistol, I want aegis but not play guard, I want portals but not play mesmer.. sacrifices :P

The only ones who don’t get that everybody has to make sacrifices in order for a fair combat-model are PvE players and facerollers. Oh and anet.

Ps: And with that I’m out as I can’t guarantee to not scream and shout next time I see “But I’m a serious Pvp-er yo!”

And btw: Servers have been merged a while ago – there are enough people in wvw nowadays. And we have the DBL and 2 ABLs.

It’s not going to work out but we already knew. Just saying: you’ll find enough to fight.

These masses still cause lag map/serverwide though, yes, 10s to activate withdraw, 30s to activate daggerstorm.
But alas more people wvw is alive!!
You find enough small scale offhours though – I guess even on NA as there is no such thing as 24/7 coverage and hasn’t been while I was on NA.

Kageseigi.2150:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Contrary to the OP’s premise, P/P doesn’t need to teleport in, in fact it needs a teleport out. This proposition will ruin P/P once again with a BP “buff/nerf”. I take personal issue on unnecessary nerfs to P/P.

Black Powder would not be a Shadow Shot clone. It would be used just as Infiltrator’s Arrow is used… to reposition and escape. It will be the teleport out, although it could be used as a teleport in, even though I have no idea why you would use it that way unless you were planning to switch to a melee set afterwards.

The very fact that this suggested change can teleport a P/P user in is the problem. What P/P needs from BP is this; it drops an AoE smoke field and evade-leap/ss backwards. Obvious what P/P needs will needlessly empower (or nerf) both S/P and D/P.

P/P don’t need a teleport in or a skill that can teleport them in and the current BP is very beneficial for P/P despite the fact that it only ticks once every 2 seconds.

So a P/P Thief would engage from range as normal. If an enemy got too close, the Thief would Black Powder away from the enemy while still being able to engage with P/P instead of having to switch to Shortbow to escape. He would simply escape/reposition with P/P now.

That’s too clunky. What P/P needs is something like Disabling Shot (SB#3) — a leap or shadowstep away that includes an evade frame.

As I mentioned before, I would also propose that Body Shot be given a Blind due to Black Powder losing the ability to Blind while maintaining distance. Both skills would gain much more use.

That’s another thing. Spending 4-init to blind is not an ideal solution for P/P or P/D. Body shot just need 3 things — 1) cheaper cost, 2) faster projectile, 3) instant cast.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Kageseigi.2150:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Contrary to the OP’s premise, P/P doesn’t need to teleport in, in fact it needs a teleport out. This proposition will ruin P/P once again with a BP “buff/nerf”. I take personal issue on unnecessary nerfs to P/P.

Black Powder would not be a Shadow Shot clone. It would be used just as Infiltrator’s Arrow is used… to reposition and escape. It will be the teleport out, although it could be used as a teleport in, even though I have no idea why you would use it that way unless you were planning to switch to a melee set afterwards.

The very fact that this suggested change can teleport a P/P user in is the problem. What P/P needs from BP is this; it drops an AoE smoke field and evade-leap/ss backwards. Obvious what P/P needs will needlessly empower (or nerf) both S/P and D/P.

P/P don’t need a teleport in or a skill that can teleport them in and the current BP is very beneficial for P/P despite the fact that it only ticks once every 2 seconds.

So a P/P Thief would engage from range as normal. If an enemy got too close, the Thief would Black Powder away from the enemy while still being able to engage with P/P instead of having to switch to Shortbow to escape. He would simply escape/reposition with P/P now.

That’s too clunky. What P/P needs is something like Disabling Shot (SB#3) — a leap or shadowstep away that includes an evade frame.

As I mentioned before, I would also propose that Body Shot be given a Blind due to Black Powder losing the ability to Blind while maintaining distance. Both skills would gain much more use.

That’s another thing. Spending 4-init to blind is not an ideal solution for P/P or P/D. Body shot just need 3 things — 1) cheaper cost, 2) faster projectile, 3) instant cast.

A good play lay BP then use unload, for many blinds, such wow.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

A good play lay BP then use unload, for many blinds, such wow.

You only need the bullets to pass through the field, you don’t want to be standing on it.

You can drop the smoke field and step out of it opposite from your target and keep them blinded. If you stay in the field, they’ll simply auto-attack you from the outside of the AoE. Using the smoke field as a wall is a very effective strategy. Always stay behind the field, not in it.

babazhook.6805:

DeceiverX.8361:

Azukas.1426:

No.

The way it works now is perfect, and I would focus on reverting the nerfs to your SB instead of this. Get Cluster Bomb’s damage back, and the duration back on poison field. This would make your SB more than just a method for mobility.

As for the D/D brigade….sorry but the current viable iteration of D/D is condi. That build is on the same skill level as the current meta DH builds. Yes I just said Dagger Dagger build is low skill.

The condi version certainly is skill-less. The people defending otherwise are typically very, very poor players.

Which is why I vouch to remove the condition application from DB, make it a proper evade/re-positioning tool, and put conditions on Dancing Dagger, instead, with normalized power damage. Then fix this stealth attack nonsense, make CnD more consistent, and nerf Shadow Shot’s power coefficient.

If D/D had a disengage or more raw mobility over D/P, we’d see more viability and diversity, for D/P then serves as a better raw gank set with some more utility while D/D would get better combat prowess to justify taking it.

The problem with dancing dagger for applying conditions is it just turns D/D into a ranged condition set which we already have. Further to that unlike spike damage which one can get via power , a person applying conditions via dancing dagger needs to survive long enough for those conditions to do enough damage to prevail. d/d has no real survival mechanism.

The P/D set at least offers benefit to the condition user in that from stealth one can use sneak attack for bleed stacking. There no such thing on the stealthed d/d set. p/d also has the port away with torment.

There simply no way any would take a condition build under your scenario usind d/d.

The fact remains that with the AA closed to meaningful condition damage either via the AA chain or sneak attack , there has to be substantial condition apps from the other attacks in the set. If this limited to dancing dagger then you recreate the same problem , just shifting it to another location while removing survival meaning the set becomes useless.

If there a shift of bleed away from DB than the only way the set can be made to work in a condition build is if the following occurs ion some combination.

1>More poison/bleed stacks added to the AA chain. This is up close and personal and no thief, no matter their armor can survive long using AA attacks so there has to be better payoff then 1 stack of poison in an AA chain.

2>A condition app coming off DB in addition to the evade such as a weakness or a slow. A pure evade not enough. Adding another condition type (non damage type) allows meaningful choice.

3>Substantial stacks coming off the dancing dagger of damaging conditions. One or two stacks will just not do it. INI runs out too fast if relying one one skill to apply the damage doubly more so under your “DB is just an evade” scenario where INI burned just to survive.

4>More incentive to use CnD in a condition build.

I do agree with this sentiment for the most part. Don’t get me wrong in thinking that moving a few stacks of bleeding to DD would resolve everything. Frankly, I think it’d be a good opportunity to allow for more general poison application on D/D as a set by having DD poison and simply act as a normal AoE, rather than bounce.

I’ll go through my more fully-detailed rework.

They should cut the power coefficient damage on dagger and staff AA by 15% and have each auto in the MH dagger chain apply 1 bleed for a few seconds. DT Should just be buffed to apply poison on every dagger AA. I know I normally stand for de-coupling skills and traits, but this is one of those things where if they just made D/x apply more conditions baseline, (particularly poison since it has the best synergy with D/x), it’d end up either being oppressive. CnD vuln stacks could be bumped to 5 with duration bumped to 15s as a loss to the dagger AA damage. Death Blossom gets reworked into a mobility-based evade (think Whirlwind-like in function), and Dancing Dagger turns into a non-bouncing fan of knives that inflicts cripple for 8s and one stack of poison, with its power coefficient upped by 50% to normalize the skill’s damage and effects for power and condition players.

D/D then gets much, much deadlier in its potential damage throughput to beat that of P/D if played well (again the risk of being melee), but also sees its skill floor increase heavily such that it’s no longer evading while dealing immense damage, quite like the existing power counterpart. It brings to the table a much more aggressive style of play oriented on chaining skills such as DB and CnD for big gains in mobility and damage mitigation while ensuing pressure, to either stick to a target or disengage while offering a degree of ranged pressure and further mobility-oriented play via synergy with soft CC on Dancing Dagger. CnD (applicable to D/D and P/D) becomes more worthwhile for condition players as well, since boosted vuln application would enable better condition damage per tick, offsetting the penalties of simply not attacking.

So while P/D gets slight bonuses as well through Dancing Dagger and CnD changing, it’s fundamentally different in function in the end. It depends almost entirely on stealth or comboing teleports into Shadow strike for damage, while D/D wouldn’t.

P/D would end up as a safer kiting kit, but would feature lower potential damage yields and the weaknesses of not having an evade or melee pressure/cleave in its kit while also further lacking the poison application of the dagger.

i find the idea of swaping P 5 with SB 5 very tempting. Would be a huge change in thief builds changing the “flow”. Don´t think such changes are considdered.
I feel that the mobility fits P 2 even better so rotate skills. SB5 —> P2 --> P5 —> SB5
Would be huge and many would complain D(S)/P is killed with that but i would like it :-)
It would actually make P/x the top kiting weapon .

Wolfric.9380:

i find the idea of swaping P 5 with SB 5 very tempting. Would be a huge change in thief builds changing the “flow”. Don´t think such changes are considdered.
I feel that the mobility fits P 2 even better so rotate skills. SB5 —> P2 --> P5 —> SB5
Would be huge and many would complain D(S)/P is killed with that but i would like it :-)
It would actually make P/x the top kiting weapon .

However thats also a nerf to all x/p which combo off the field with 4 or, 1-5 in the case of p/p

It’s a nerf to s/p and p/p which used DD’s bounding dodger to gain access to stealth. The whole reason BD is a leap finisher was intended to buff those sets, not to buff SB.

You would think s/p would appreciate being able to teleport so well. They could IA out, heal up, then IS back in having set up the potential for a cheaper escape with IR. 9 initiative, 14 if you include pistol whip.

But is that better than using BP, then BD for stealth, then healing, then TS, then PW? 11 initiative including pistol whip.

I would say absolutely not. In the later you achieve the heal but you also blind, daze, and stun the target. You also have the extra damage from using BD. In the former you trade soft/hard cc for being able to reestablish a point for IR mid combat. If it was ever okay to trade damage/control for evasive potential then s/d or sb would be competing with d/p.

Yes. In a vacuum, I kind of like the proposed SB #5, and I think it fits the theme of SB better than the current skill.

But in context… well, what Daniel Handler said. It ends up being a nerf to a stealth access for a number of builds, unless they pick up SB as a mandatory swap set, which defeats the purpose of trying to fix Infiltrator’s Arrow in the first place.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Wolfric.9380:

i find the idea of swaping P 5 with SB 5 very tempting. Would be a huge change in thief builds changing the “flow”. Don´t think such changes are considdered.
I feel that the mobility fits P 2 even better so rotate skills. SB5 —> P2 --> P5 —> SB5
Would be huge and many would complain D(S)/P is killed with that but i would like it :-)
It would actually make P/x the top kiting weapon .

However thats also a nerf to all x/p which combo off the field with 4 or, 1-5 in the case of p/p

It’s a nerf to s/p and p/p which used DD’s bounding dodger to gain access to stealth. The whole reason BD is a leap finisher was intended to buff those sets, not to buff SB.

Great point! I didn’t see this because I was defending P/P but the OP is trying to remove stealth from D/P…sneaky nerfing thief.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Wolfric.9380:

i find the idea of swaping P 5 with SB 5 very tempting. Would be a huge change in thief builds changing the “flow”. Don´t think such changes are considdered.
I feel that the mobility fits P 2 even better so rotate skills. SB5 —> P2 --> P5 —> SB5
Would be huge and many would complain D(S)/P is killed with that but i would like it :-)
It would actually make P/x the top kiting weapon .

However thats also a nerf to all x/p which combo off the field with 4 or, 1-5 in the case of p/p

It’s a nerf to s/p and p/p which used DD’s bounding dodger to gain access to stealth. The whole reason BD is a leap finisher was intended to buff those sets, not to buff SB.

Great point! I didn’t see this because I was defending P/P but the OP is trying to remove stealth from D/P…sneaky nerfing thief.

That’s was less of sin in my eyes. The greatest injury is preventing the best set (s/p) from having access to stealth using bounding dodger.

Also side note how terribly complicated it would be to have infiltrator’s strike/return/arrow/signet with just one weapon set.

The least he could do is also suggest a name change to infiltrator’s arrow. We can’t be infiltrating all the time.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Wolfric.9380:

i find the idea of swaping P 5 with SB 5 very tempting. Would be a huge change in thief builds changing the “flow”. Don´t think such changes are considdered.
I feel that the mobility fits P 2 even better so rotate skills. SB5 —> P2 --> P5 —> SB5
Would be huge and many would complain D(S)/P is killed with that but i would like it :-)
It would actually make P/x the top kiting weapon .

However thats also a nerf to all x/p which combo off the field with 4 or, 1-5 in the case of p/p

It’s a nerf to s/p and p/p which used DD’s bounding dodger to gain access to stealth. The whole reason BD is a leap finisher was intended to buff those sets, not to buff SB.

Great point! I didn’t see this because I was defending P/P but the OP is trying to remove stealth from D/P…sneaky nerfing thief.

That’s was less of sin in my eyes. The greatest injury is preventing the best set (s/p) from having access to stealth using bounding dodger.

Also side note how terribly complicated it would be to have infiltrator’s strike/return/arrow/signet with just one weapon set.

The least he could do is also suggest a name change to infiltrator’s arrow. We can’t be infiltrating all the time.

Woah now!! We all know that S/D is the best weapon set it takes True skill to master and be relevant with!!!

I’m not really certain I can agree. Basing OH pistol’s utility based on Daredevil’s Bound is short-sighted.

When the next round of power creep comes to the thief in the form of the next elite specialization, what then? Will all X/P players, particularly S/P, find themselves at a loss since the new shiny will prevent them from gaining stealth access and thus be stuck with a not-as-viable kit? Then what? Ask for changes to make BP just innately give stealth? Then what of OH dagger? This is obviously a slippery slope.

DeceiverX.8361:

I’m not really certain I can agree. Basing OH pistol’s utility based on Daredevil’s Bound is short-sighted.

When the next round of power creep comes to the thief in the form of the next elite specialization, what then? Will all X/P players, particularly S/P, find themselves at a loss since the new shiny will prevent them from gaining stealth access and thus be stuck with a not-as-viable kit? Then what? Ask for changes to make BP just innately give stealth? Then what of OH dagger? This is obviously a slippery slope.

What slope?

All other classes gained elite specs that were viable with their weapon sets.

Daredevil was no different. P/p is a hybrid set and it would be insulting if both secondary effects of LT and BD were useless to the build (the skills they produce, not the modifiers) . So of course BD has a secondary effect that fits the build. Seems like a compromise given that the secondary effect of BD is useless to condi d/d build.

Any new elite spec would have an aspect relevant to /p builds. It doesn’t have to be stealth. They could make a spec that adds a bounce to all projectiles and another target to all melee skills. They could make a spec that gives access to a fire field.

There are plenty of ways that elite specs can be useful to all sets. What is important is that they don’t make Daredevil less useful to p/p. You don’t know, the next spec could be a healing spec. Not all specs are going to boost dps.

Edit:
This also isn’t even an elite spec issue. Skills 2 and 3 on all /p sets are more useful with BP than IA. And look at those skill 3 abilities again. Notice how only the ones on /p don’t kite (have the potential to alter the position of the player so that it is away from the enemy)? That is because the sets can dps in the smoke field to defend themselves while attacking. This weird idea of making BP into IA is stupid in all game modes.

• s/p (2,5,3) protects me from aftercasts, and (bounding dodger,1) perfects the combo adding damage and daze.
• d/p uses 5 for absolutely everything, baring select uses of 4.
• p/p wow, did anyone actually think that using (5,3,5) with IA is superior in any way to (5,3,3) with BP. Damage over repositioning any day. If we wanted to have that damage and mobility we would use sb instead of p/p

Its a terrible idea.