Guild Wars 2

The way things are going and how people just seem to complain about lots of damage I feel there will be a Backstab nerf.

The problem isnt backstab tho it what it does with other abilities / traites. These massive hits are coming from glass canon builds using Backstab + 150% damage signet along with a trait that gives 5 stacks of might for using that signet.
example, a 15k crit backstab would have only been around 9k damage without the signet and might. the actual backstab without a crit would have been around 4.5 k damage.

the majority of dagger / dagger thiefs do not use this. but if you nerf backstab you are going to hurt all the thiefs that arent causing these massive damage backstabs.

Backstab should be the most damaging ability in the game but not what it is currently doing. My suggestion would be to adjust the 150% damage signet, remove it or adjust how it works with might and crit damage.

Pirhana.8935:

Backstab should be the most damaging ability in the game but not what it is currently doing.

Why? Any reason beside “i want it that way”? Because of the skill involved using it? Their are elementalist and engi combos for example that do less damage and are way harder to pull of.

@Mayama, well i guess its how you look at it. But it makes sense to me and alot of people because it has requirements that cause it to be unsuccesful alot of the times. those being Stealthed, which is something that is not always rdy for you and you have to be behind your target. mainly a suprise opener as the name suggests. if the target knows your there or is already attacking you it is very hard to land teh attack from behind.

But the biggest factor would be is that it is a melee attack that puts you right in the fight with high danger(thieves are very squishy and die fast aswell) (more risk more reward)as opposed to other class abilities that are ranged where you are safer.

I made a lengthy post about the exact same issue here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/How-to-nerf-Thief-burst-without-gutting-the-class/first#post362216

Backstab damage in itself isn’t the problem. It’s the extra Might stacks you get for using a Singet + extra Might stacks for using Venoms etc. that really push the burst over the top.

With my current burst build I can gain an extra 14 stacks of Might (2 Singets + 2 Venoms) before going in for a Backstab. That’s kind of a lot.

I think ANet…if they do intend to nerf our burst, would do well to address all these Might-stacking traits rather than nerfing the actual damage of abilities.

PS: I do agree that Backstab should be a big hitter.Especially since we don’t have perma-stealth in this game.

Dee Jay.2460:

With my current burst build I can gain an extra 14 stacks of Might (2 Singets + 2 Venoms) before going in for a Backstab. That’s kind of a lot.

I think ANet…if they do intend to nerf our burst, would do well to address all these Might-stacking traits rather than nerfing the actual damage of abilities.

Idk man, using 3 utils and your elite for 1 strike seems like quite a trade off… Just sayin’

Maybe not drop someone in 1 swing sort of power, but you should get a kitten big boost to your damage. Assassin’s signet is probably what needs to be looked at here, might stacks (imo) are fine.

Edit: Granted, the might does stick around for follow ups too.

I´m just curious about the rationale with Migth stacking. Warriours know the same and a few other classes. I seen some run around with 9-10 stacks.

Glass cannon builds are just as the name says. The tradeoff is not nice. Also backstab doesn’t constantly crit, and personally I’ve never hit 15k (11k max – maybe I’m doing it wrong ). Even with the 15k, considering the setup it needs just for one hit, where you basically need to pray for a crit and the fact that if you don’t crit you can be extremely easily picked off after all the preparations, I’d say it’s ok.

Piriel.5197:

Glass cannon builds are just as the name says. The tradeoff is not nice. Also backstab doesn’t constantly crit, and personally I’ve never hit 15k (11k max – maybe I’m doing it wrong ). Even with the 15k, considering the setup it needs just for one hit, where you basically need to pray for a crit and the fact that if you don’t crit you can be extremely easily picked off after all the preparations, I’d say it’s ok.

While i understand what you mean, you’re wrong in the praying for a crit, with the 100% from steath crit trait.

@ Paranoid.9542 My mistake, you’re right with the crit

Why? Any reason beside “i want it that way”? Because of the skill involved using it? Their are elementalist and engi combos for example that do less damage and are way harder to pull of.

the difficulty of landing a backstab is directly proportional to the skill/awareness of the player your trying to backstab.

if he stands there focusing on someone even tho he saw you stealth…his fault.

ive played against smart players that once i go into stealth they do things like pop defensive skills, speed bosts, dodgeing, blanket aoes/cc, etc. even with stealth being bugged its very difficult to land that backstab, and i mean VERY difficult.

do these eng/ele combos do soley damage? do they have any other effect? this matters as well.

Quite frankly, and unfortunately for us thieves that understand game mechanics and the utility we sacrifice to achieve that one massive hit, it is almost always easier to change/nerf skills that are deemed too powerful than to expect the masses to improve or learn to fight it.

The bads will always be bad, just got to expect to be forcibly brought down to their level.

I’ve never been one-shotted(not by a thief, anyway) but then again, I consider myself a good player. Thieves are creatures of habit, once you know what to look for avoiding their burst becomes easy.

Then again, from what I’ve seen, most players are so aware of their surroundings in this game that they could be crushed between two tectonic plates before they realise its hapenning.

If all the complains are about high damage and high damage only without emotional hate towards thieves, there is a much simpler solution: put in a global max damage cap.

We will always have players who would go for a dps glass cannon build, and they will do it via traits or gears, nerfing the class and its traits wont solve the problem because those players will just play another class who can out put the most dps.

Nerfing isnt a solution, buffing useless skills is, and it promotes build diversity also.

@Zplus.. A global max dmg cap would make this game boring…

@Coolmoos – I agree, but with the current trend of nerfs and players generally going for max dps/survive builds and those builds are gotten/getting the bat it will become boring as the end result anyways.

Like I said, instead of nerfing useful skills, buff useless skills so that there is more build diversity: killing people in different ways rather than just jump in and wrack 2 win.

These glass canon thieves are funny in WvW.

I think if there gonna nerf our damage then we need a redo on some of our utilities. Our utilities basically are for damage and 2 or 3 are defensive where-as other professions have quite a few defensive utilities. At the moment our best defense is offence with conditions, stun, cripple, immobilize and weakness. Plus we have no way to use sustained damage without being overly squishy or going a condition build.

spif.7580:

These glass canon thieves are funny in WvW.

And you condition thieves(which I assume you are) are also funny in WvW.

You all think your kitten doesn’t stink and that you are somehow better, more skilled players. Truth is, anytime I cross a progamer condition thief skillfully spamming LDB and flip-flopping like someone who’s having a seizure, I always make sure to /laugh at them before they get sent back to their spawn point.

Thats bull kitten, warriors can keep 15-20 stacks of might up almost permanently, no, anet intended people to stack boons, they also added boon removals for that reason. I doubt backstab will get nerfed, also several other skills in this game hit just as hard aka 100blades or kill shot, rapid fire with a glass cannon signet build, thieves have to give up ALOT of survivability for that damage and should be rewarded. You can argue they come out of stealth for it but lol yea… stealth isnt permanent, you can see thieves coming and prepare for it.

Ive been hit by them also, and when a thief seems to have a kitten for me I start preparing for that thief and sure enough I either kill him or come kitten close on all my toons, thieves excell at 1v1, but this game isnt balanced around it. So if you lose 1v1, start rolling in a pack or with a friend, problem solved.

IMO no single skill or burst combo should do more than 7k under “normal” circumstances. 7k is half of many profession’s life when not using vitality gear in abundance, meaning it’s still considerable dmg. Besides playing Thief, I also play Elementlist, and the things I have to do setup-wise to get to a crit that’s around 7k are absurd compared to the Thief setups, plus an Ele has to expose himself a lot to do that kind of dmg (i.e. setting up might stacks and channeling Churning Earth), just sayin’.
The burst damage problems GW2 currently has remind me a lot of old WoW days when Rogues in general, and Arcane Power Mages could burst people down almost instantly.

If a person blows all of his CDs to get a ginormous backstab… more power to him.

rickshaw.5279:

If a person blows all of his CDs to get a ginormous backstab… more power to him.

Basically this.

People only look at damage numbers for what is happening in balance. Don’t mind the fact that thief has by far the worst defensive stats in game right now.

You will break this class if you nerf the damage because right now it is kill in a combo or be killed in a combo. People who want 30 second -1 minute duels are going to kill the game. Is it cool to be locked in an epic duel that lasts a long time? Sure. Has a thief/rogue class ever been in any game used as a drawn out fighter like class? No.

I play the thief because I like the ability to take pick a target and kill it. high risk high reward. I wont stay and fight if I know it will be drug out. We are not supposed to fight fairly which to many people want.

If I want a drawn out fight that involves everything I have at the perfect time I will play my necro or ele. If I want to be an assassin who takes high priority targets through lining their skills up perfectly I will play my thief.

They are different classes let it be different play styles. I have an issue seeing videos of warrior running around with 20+k hp and 100 blades dealing 18+K damage because the warrior was patient enough to wait out the escapes. (what a warrior is built for) but people freak out when a thief lines everything up right with 12k hp and deals 10k with a backstab. The design of the classes point to one being able to front load it all and the other being able to wait it out.

Xolo.3580:

IMO no single skill or burst combo should do more than 7k under “normal” circumstances. 7k is half of many profession’s life when not using vitality gear in abundance, meaning it’s still considerable dmg. Besides playing Thief, I also play Elementlist, and the things I have to do setup-wise to get to a crit that’s around 7k are absurd compared to the Thief setups, plus an Ele has to expose himself a lot to do that kind of dmg (i.e. setting up might stacks and channeling Churning Earth), just sayin’.
The burst damage problems GW2 currently has remind me a lot of old WoW days when Rogues in general, and Arcane Power Mages could burst people down almost instantly.

I just don’t see the draw of a game that has 8 classes that are all balanced around the same drawn out style of fighting.

Wow was killed in 3.0 when hybrid classes got a 30% damage increase to be competitive with pure damage dealers while keeping all their survivability. The classes that could only damage got no added survivablity. What you were left with was hybrids dealing on par damage with damage dealers who were still being treated like glass canons.

Ele has something thieves wont get. Support. A thief brings one thing to a group. The ability to kill something. This is why in drawn out fights like bosses in dungeons everyone is always looking for more eles and dreading the moment when a thief whispers asking to come along.

If they are going to keep nerfing thieves damage dealing ability they at least need to offset it with survivability. Sure thieves can kill in 1 or 2 hits if all the timing works out perfectly, but with the lowest base HP in the game, i’m talking 11.5k pure dps spec, that needs to be raised.

And do not talk to me about ele’s.

An ele crying about thieves is akin to rich people crying about taxes.

A double dagger ele not only has amazing dmg and absurd mobility but also sports 17 seconds of immobilize/knockdown that he can divy up any way he sees fit. Once the ele population matures and begins to get good st what they’re doing you will, mark my words, see no end of crying on the forums.

Ele’s are, bar none, the hardest class to master. The learning curve is insanely high. Which is why so many people cry on.the forums that they’re weak. Ele’s aren’t weak. They’re complex and unforgiving.

What I can do on my D/D ele completely trivializes my D/D thief.

It’s insane people haven’t caught on to how OP ele’s really are.

@rickshaw

I agree. I am going to pick up my ele again and just finish it out. I ran D/D but was using a tank build. Rarely would get downed let alone die with that build. The ability to control your opponent is overlooked and called UP where the ability to burst an opponent is seen as OP.

Watched a great thread where it was a bleed speced theif against a guardian. What I saw there points to what I feel most people want. That thief had to deal damage and kite all the same. Wearing the guardian down slowly even though every time it took 1 hit he dropped 1/4 hp. Won the drawn out fights but only because the control was spot on perfect. Ele is the same way. you learn to control your opponent and you can have epic feeling duels. You just have to put in 100% more effort to do it. And then the complaint will be that the classes are OP because you cant catch them to 2 shot them.

Fact: Psychologically a person will not feel balanced until then win 60% of encounters. People who defend that it is balance probably win more often than lose and people who complain about being killed to much probably are sitting right on the line of balanced.

In a game like this control is OP and burst is OP. Balance will only be believed by most players when every class has 20k hp and 2k toughness 2k power and 50% crit chance. Each class has exactly 3 cc abilities and 3 counters and every fight comes down to trading blow for blow until someone drops dead. These fights must last at least 1 minute each at least so as to give the appearance of being an “epic duel”. And the player must win…..even though there are 2 players fighting each other. Oh yeah and each player needs the ability to choose his play style also.

If you want balance and an epic feel to every duel go play HALO turn shields up to 200-300% and give everyone and over shield. Also only the plasma pistol and take away all charge so you are reduced to punching each other in the face until one of you decides he doesn’t want to play anymore.

I could be wrong, but I think most people just dislike being globalled, or even close to it.

I completely agree with the original poster. The root of the problem is the Assassin’s Signet increased damage with might stacks on top boosting it to ridiculous damage levels. I really hope they don’t give backstab the pistol whip treatment and completely miss the real issue, as I feel it’s fine on any other spec without that setup.

Kintari.4172:

I could be wrong, but I think most people just dislike being globalled, or even close to it.

Which begs the question… what are people doing when thieves go stealth? Are you all just bending over or what?

I know when I face off against a thief and he goes stealth I dodge forward. Forcing him to turn around and reposition. More often then not this SIMPLE maneuver causes his CDs to go to waste and now I have the advantage.

OH NOES TEH THIEF WENT STELF I’S GONNA BACK PEDDLE NAO OH NOES I DIED GONNA WHINE ON TEH FORUMS NOW GG /logout

The backstab thief’s greatest strength is also his greatest weakness. He has to be stealthed. If you deny him that you win the match. The problem is people freeze up or they have the situational awareness of a lemming.

I don’t find it that difficult to land a backstab once I get into stealth. Do I always get it? Of course not. But it’s not like it’s impossible to land against halfway-decent players.

This thread is hilarious.

There has to be a strongest attack somewhere people. What are you going to do when they nerf BS… move to whining about 100blades?? Oh wait that’s already been done. What’s next in line for big numbers?

I can 2 shot people with my BS build, and I get 2 shot if I’m not perfect about my “in and out” timing.

The tradeout for this build is that I have absolutely no CC (minus Bas Ven which is used just for the nuke), no survivability and no AoE. Because of this, I can deal massive single target damage. A fair trade off. I don’t run this build all the time, but when I feel like playing a real “assassin” type toon, I run this build. It’s perfect. You get in, get a kill, get out. You kitten up, you die.

You want a big, single target hit, Eles? Just ask Anet for a big single target whammy and tell them to trade it in for all your CC and your AoE and other cool kitten… oh wait, you want to keep that too? Well wtf….

I got an idea: Instead of asking for them to change game mechanics, how about you use your class the way it was meant to be used.

I hear a whole bunch of “That class hits harder than me, because it was meant to, because I have other abilities that they don’t, but I don’t take that into account, I just want big numbers”

You want big numbers? Play a big number class.

You want survivability? Play a survivable class/build.

You want utility? Play a utility class/build.

Stop kittening with other peoples classes and l2play your own.

PW was fine. It did less damage the 100b and mesmer sword skill 2.

Trollocaust.7196:

spif.7580:

These glass canon thieves are funny in WvW.

And you condition thieves(which I assume you are) are also funny in WvW.

You all think your kitten doesn’t stink and that you are somehow better, more skilled players. Truth is, anytime I cross a progamer condition thief skillfully spamming LDB and flip-flopping like someone who’s having a seizure, I always make sure to /laugh at them before they get sent back to their spawn point.

True…the best counter to DB spaming Bleed Noobs is to equip a ranged weapon.

Mayama.1854:

Pirhana.8935:

Backstab should be the most damaging ability in the game but not what it is currently doing.

Why? Any reason beside “i want it that way”? Because of the skill involved using it? Their are elementalist and engi combos for example that do less damage and are way harder to pull of.

So because “you have to do it that way” “we have to do it that way to”?
you sound like a spoiled 3 year old brat that is upset that his older brother got some candy and you didnt. please keep your garbage post off of these forums. Or atleast try and be constructive when you post. kitten /p>

Cyricus.2981:

I completely agree with the original poster. The root of the problem is the Assassin’s Signet increased damage with might stacks on top boosting it to ridiculous damage levels

Nerf to Assassins Signet in 3..2..1

The problem is people don’t like to lose and the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
The problem isn’t just Assassins Signet, it is Assassins Signet combined with a Tier 1 major trait in critical strikes that grants 5 stacks of might for each signet used then thrown up against people that don’t like to lose, are used to thieves being nerfed because of games like WoW, and know if they complain loud enough they will get their own way.

rickshaw.5279:

Kintari.4172:

I could be wrong, but I think most people just dislike being globalled, or even close to it.

Which begs the question… what are people doing when thieves go stealth? Are you all just bending over or what?

I know when I face off against a thief and he goes stealth I dodge forward. Forcing him to turn around and reposition. More often then not this SIMPLE maneuver causes his CDs to go to waste and now I have the advantage.

OH NOES TEH THIEF WENT STELF I’S GONNA BACK PEDDLE NAO OH NOES I DIED GONNA WHINE ON TEH FORUMS NOW GG /logout

The backstab thief’s greatest strength is also his greatest weakness. He has to be stealthed. If you deny him that you win the match. The problem is people freeze up or they have the situational awareness of a lemming.

If everyone was this smart, no one would even bother with the class. Everyone would play mesmers and then this topic would majicly change to a “Nerf Mesmer Portals, they can teleport and i cant and it kills me in the face”

They could just redesign the kitten signet (and that trait for 100% crit as well), since it’s pretty much useless for anything other than backstab since it only affects one HIT.

I use assassins signet with mug (I don’t use daggers) so it’s not useless for anything but backstab

So because thieves can hit 100b like numbers once every 45 secs that makes them op? My entire point was that almost every class in this game can do thief like burst if they build for it, and yes Ive played most of them and all I play are glass cannons, Ive had people do 180 turns in opinions about rifle warriors and longbow rangers because I managed to get 20k burst on them in 3 secs. OH BUT THIEVES DO IT FROM STEALTH….I get this all the time as well, yea we get 1 hit from stealth before we are out, rifle warrior gets the same damage from 1500 range, same with ranger, warriors 100b is an aoe, other classes get similar burst in smaller numbers. People just complain about thieves because they are better 1v1 than their class. Ive had thieves complain about my guardian because I own them with him as a glass cannon, retal and all. People just need to learn to play.

Trollocaust.7196:

Quite frankly, and unfortunately for us thieves that understand game mechanics and the utility we sacrifice to achieve that one massive hit, it is almost always easier to change/nerf skills that are deemed too powerful than to expect the masses to improve or learn to fight it.

The bads will always be bad, just got to expect to be forcibly brought down to their level.

Your absolutely right but this is getting old. I’m tired of getting “punished” in MMO’s because other people don’t/won’t take the time to learn anything.

I’d like to join you all in this magical land where developers only ever create perfectly balanced content, and therefore all feedback can be dismissed as bads just being bad.

I’ve seen some pretty ridiculously unbalanced stuff across a lot of games, and every single time these things were defended with “lol ppl jus ned 2 l2p”

Granted there is a ton of noise on forums and a lot of it is just hyperbole, and people call for nerfs far more frequently than things actually need to be nerfed. And sometimes devs nerf stuff that’s better left alone, no question. But I think you get my point.

On a side note, I can’t be the only one amused by the “thief is fine because 100b” line of reasoning that keeps coming up everywhere … lol

You know what would be the simplest solution? Just put a max damage cap on the corresponding skills (before applying armor/damage reduction). For example, if the developers decide backstab should only ever do 10k damage, then they should just apply that limitation so that whenever the formula computation comes to over 10k it’s automatically reduced to 10k.

Removing might stacking from thieves alone won’t necessarily solve the problem and it may instead remove some other viable builds, since teammates can give might to each other.

Kintari.4172:

I could be wrong, but I think most people just dislike being globalled, or even close to it.

So maybe they should pick up some VIT via trait lines or gear?

Let’s not dance around the crux of the issue. The VAST majority of players complaining about Thf burst are playing glass cannon builds themselves.
Not only are they complaining about being global’d while wearing all power/crit gear and putting 0 points into the trait lines that give toughness and vit, they’re also complaining over on the Guardian forum that they can’t solo point control guardians from 1200 range.

It’s mostly a L2P issue fueled by kill compilation videos that simply aren’t indicative of how often you can pull it off, how many times you’ll die trying, or how strategically viable it is when putting together a team.

What’s next in line for big numbers?

Kill Shot has always done more damage than Backstab, tbh.

That aside, the issue with the stacking and Backstab is that certain ability combinations bypass all the restrictions on Backstab — mainly the CND-steal combo. +Mug results in >30k damage within 0.5 seconds in WvW using glass builds.

It’s a gimmick, but >30k will one-shot the majority of players around.

Dante Dragonhand.2538:

Thats bull kitten, warriors can keep 15-20 stacks of might up almost permanently, no, anet intended people to stack boons, they also added boon removals for that reason. I doubt backstab will get nerfed, also several other skills in this game hit just as hard aka 100blades or kill shot, rapid fire with a glass cannon signet build, thieves have to give up ALOT of survivability for that damage and should be rewarded. You can argue they come out of stealth for it but lol yea… stealth isnt permanent, you can see thieves coming and prepare for it.

Ive been hit by them also, and when a thief seems to have a kitten for me I start preparing for that thief and sure enough I either kill him or come kitten close on all my toons, thieves excell at 1v1, but this game isnt balanced around it. So if you lose 1v1, start rolling in a pack or with a friend, problem solved.

What is this bullkitten? Glass cannon warriors cant keep 15-20 stacks of might almost permanently.

Backstab needs only positioning. While 100B needs stun skill like Bullrush to land as warrior is immobile during 100B, on top of that you need Frenzy to fully use 100Bo r your opponent will break stun and dodge. So please get your facts right.

Glass cannon thieves dont give up any survivability in PvP. With ability to constantly stealth away you have best survival/get away mechanic. Try glass cannon warrior vs glass cannon thief, thief always comes on top.

Good thief will also not show that “hes coming” he will appear and beat the crap out of you. So before posting stupid kitten like this, play some other classes and fight against thieves and you will love your thief and its survivability in glass cannon no brainer build.

Funny how you say all you need to avoid 100B is break stun and dodge. Where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, pistol whip right before they nerfed it.

Pirhana.8935:

@Mayama, well i guess its how you look at it. But it makes sense to me and alot of people because it has requirements that cause it to be unsuccesful alot of the times. those being Stealthed, which is something that is not always rdy for you and you have to be behind your target. mainly a suprise opener as the name suggests. if the target knows your there or is already attacking you it is very hard to land teh attack from behind.

But the biggest factor would be is that it is a melee attack that puts you right in the fight with high danger(thieves are very squishy and die fast aswell) (more risk more reward)as opposed to other class abilities that are ranged where you are safer.

The problem is that you get around a second lag delay bevor the enemy can react to your backstab because of the way the gw2 server handles stuff. Thats the problem. From a thieves perspective everything looks fine but from the victims perspective the enemy only unstealthes for around one second. Thats the same reason why pistol whip is OP its not because of how it works but because of the server lag that grants the thief one second of hasted pistol whip damage. As long as that lag is not fixed theirs no way it can balanced at all.

I’m just an average player and I’ve just recently tried a thief to see how a glass cannon thief would play out.
It’s actually quite easy to counter. From a non-thief main player, I would say it’s fine as it is. Stacking venoms means you have less defensive ultility. Activating the signet means you cannot use it for the next 36sec (if traited), and that lowers your damage potential.
True that you can take out a target quickly, but for the next 36sec, you cannot really do anything because you have already used your “big” move. Also, you still need to kill the ‘downed’ player which some can drag out the fight. Not to mention, having only about 15k hp tops, it makes thief very squishy.
Before crying nerf, have you really played a thief to find out how to achieve that damage and bringing it to sPvP to try out?

@Mayama – I don’t know if you have played a thief or not, but to achieve that backstab, all you need is just 1 sec. Doesn’t matter if anet fix the lag delay or not. You need to have quick reflexes to counter the thief in that 1 sec.

Fact – Thieves that rely on strong backstab damage are a 1 trick pony. They can at best heartseeker you to death if the backstab hits. If the backstab misses, they are as good as dead. Risk vs Reward. Do it or fail it.

Pirhana.8935:

example, a 15k crit backstab would have only been around 9k damage without the signet and might. the actual backstab without a crit would have been around 4.5 k damage.

The non crit backstab would be closer to 3.5k-3.8k… possibly less.

It’s fine if something does that damage. It’s bad that there is something else that instantly teleports to a players back.