Guild Wars 2

in a 1 v 1 scenario stealth is very strong. in a 50 v 50…its 95% less usefull. so much aoe dmg….fears….aoe stuns…..melee dmg….being in stealth in larger groups is “eh” . 1 v 1 it is amazing yes. although everytime im in stealth and going against any class that can attack without a target…“auto attack” i still take dmg almost everytime. dont get me wrong. any class would take stealth over invulnerbility for 3 seconds and everytime at that. but stealth comes at a hefty price to the HP/defense of a thief. if you shadow refuge or blackpowder shot and get knocked down/out or stunned or pulled/pushed or they cast stacks of AOE skills inside refuge/blck powder you are like a trapped rat. it does come at a price. personally im ok with having 10800 hp to start with and low defense. but u ruin stealth u ruin thief. i posted
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B4mbYlRiJw even a lil engineer can outplay good thieves. :P its very doable. again..im not sayin its not strong but i am saying its worthy of what thieves sacrifice to get it.

Zacchary.6183:

Zelulose.8695:

Thief has plenty of defense it’s called dodge. You are blessed with so much that it can be done permanently. Use it. XD don’t worry about your stealth so much it hasn’t been removed.

You do realize that our plentiful dodges have been a QQ topic and will be the next thing to get nerfed after stealth.

You do realize that you’re admitting that you don’t really need stealth because you have amazing evasion capabilities?

Also, you’re assuming that it will be nerfed. Have any posts or video of devs saying anything about nerfing thief evasion? I haven’t.

Travlane.5948:

Thieves dont have the highest single target dmg in game. although very close. mesmer is without a doubt number 1 right now. especially for burst. this can be proven in a video very easily.

Stealth is arguably the best defense mechanic in the game its also the most debilitating one. Invulnerability is the best IMO and blocking 2nd. many blocks/aegis in the game you can still do damage while in that “mode” …invulnerability is the best even tho it is only 3 seconds on average. in stealth u can still take damage…and usually as much as you give if not more in group settings. stealth is probably the best escape in the game without argue…..although moa skill 5 could be thrown in there although super rare.

Based on what? Those numbers you imagined a while back?

Since you say it can be proved so easily, please, for once, prove something that you’ve claimed.

Travlane.5948:

in a 1 v 1 scenario stealth is very strong. in a 50 v 50…its 95% less usefull. so much aoe dmg….fears….aoe stuns…..melee dmg….being in stealth in larger groups is “eh” . 1 v 1 it is amazing yes. although everytime im in stealth and going against any class that can attack without a target…“auto attack” i still take dmg almost everytime. dont get me wrong. any class would take stealth over invulnerbility for 3 seconds and everytime at that. but stealth comes at a hefty price to the HP/defense of a thief. if you shadow refuge or blackpowder shot and get knocked down/out or stunned or pulled/pushed or they cast stacks of AOE skills inside refuge/blck powder you are like a trapped rat. it does come at a price. personally im ok with having 10800 hp to start with and low defense. but u ruin stealth u ruin thief. i posted
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B4mbYlRiJw even a lil engineer can outplay good thieves. :P its very doable. again..im not sayin its not strong but i am saying its worthy of what thieves sacrifice to get it.

What you are doing is justifying bad design.

Thieves have Stealth and evades. You can let them have also 5k as base HP pool, but Stealth, as it is, will be always too good. It is the way traits and stealth are designed. It shouldn’t allow you to run full berserker without any drawback, that’s all.

We can argue about the fact that Stealth is useless in ZvZ situations. I won’t consider it bad. It allows you to easily disengage and to hunt down split-up sheeps.

running full bersker has a drawback no matter how you look at it. your hp is crazy low and collateral dmg kills stealthede thieves alot. it happens very very very very fast.

zvz ….stealth is good if ur on extreme edges but a thief in no way will ever split up peopel in large groups. unless u mean hunt down “the” split up sheeps then yes they can do that. but split up sheeps are usually wimping out of a fight and not contributing much if at all anymore so it becomes a zvz and then you vs them kind of deal

Sebrent.3625:

1.)You do realize that you’re admitting that you don’t really need stealth because you have amazing evasion capabilities?

2.) Also, you’re assuming that it will be nerfed. Have any posts or video of devs saying anything about nerfing thief evasion? I haven’t.

1.) Yes.

2.) No, I am not assuming. I am speculating. There is already a massive amount of QQ about stealth so I don’t have to provide any examples. Stealth has an easy-mode counter now with these new anti-stealth traps. Thieves will eventually find a counter to them being the smart kittens they can be. This will result in more QQ and more nerfing.

Then we will start abusing dodges since it’ll seem nearly pointless to use stealth. People will continue to QQ about that:

Dodging QQ

and our dodges will get nerfed. Its a vicious cycle.

I read the first sentence of the OP it’s starts with , WTF blah blah blah I quit cause I’m angry grrrrrrrrrrrrr

I have no issue with a trap that stops stealth it’s just like any other red circle on the ground. You walk around it! Every tweak made to our profession you have a bunch of players that go postal. Welcome to a bit of the real world it’s so harsh, hahahahaha

Mindtrick.5190:

I read the first sentence of the OP it’s starts with , WTF blah blah blah I quit cause I’m angry grrrrrrrrrrrrr

I have no issue with a trap that stops stealth it’s just like any other red circle on the ground. You walk around it! Every tweak made to our profession you have a bunch of players that go postal. Welcome to a bit of the real world it’s so harsh, hahahahaha

…..thieves are getting used to being “dumbed” down so players of all lvl can kill them easier. its a pattern now for 9 months or so….not that some weren’t justified. imagine the flak and QQ we would see if they were making traps of the same nature that allowed no clones within it, or no ground targeting skills, or no block skills, etc etc etc. i think there would be a much larger uproar :P

You are all forgetting one main aspect, other than stealth and evade, we don’t have any defensive buffs to actually compensate. To actually dodge 3 times consecutively you need at least 15 in acrobatics, the vitality tree, which also means you are sacrificing dps for it. As for the endurance refill signet, it is good, but not as good as shadow refuge, Shadowstep, and the increase movement signet.

Another thing is, to be able to refill endurance faster, we need to melee, again, without enough toughness, going face to face with anyone could be deadly.

Last thing is dodging requires good timing, unlike popping buffs and taking everything to the face.

Travlane.5948:

running full bersker has a drawback no matter how you look at it. your hp is crazy low and collateral dmg kills stealthede thieves alot. it happens very very very very fast.

zvz ….stealth is good if ur on extreme edges but a thief in no way will ever split up peopel in large groups. unless u mean hunt down “the” split up sheeps then yes they can do that. but split up sheeps are usually wimping out of a fight and not contributing much if at all anymore so it becomes a zvz and then you vs them kind of deal

So Berserker thief has drawbacks?
Let’s see. Pick a Necromancer/Engineer/Ranger or whatever you want excluding Mesmer. Pick the Berserker amulet. Put MAX 20 traitpoints in a defensive traitline (Toughness or Vitality). Now tell me if you feel as protected as a Thief is with 20 points in Shadow Arts or Acrobatics.

About ZvZ, it is about the melee Thief playstyle. Either you run Shortbow or P/P and attack people from range or you kill the lone sheeps. Every profession dies in the AoE of a big zerg, not only Thief.

Azraeel.1238:

You are all forgetting one main aspect, other than stealth and evade, we don’t have any defensive buffs to actually compensate. To actually dodge 3 times consecutively you need at least 15 in acrobatics, the vitality tree, which also means you are sacrificing dps for it. As for the endurance refill signet, it is good, but not as good as shadow refuge, Shadowstep, and the increase movement signet.

Another thing is, to be able to refill endurance faster, we need to melee, again, without enough toughness, going face to face with anyone could be deadly.

Last thing is dodging requires good timing, unlike popping buffs and taking everything to the face.

You know what 15 traitpoints are worth? Nothing.
Why can’t I have the same survivability on my Necromancer by putting 15 traitpoints into Death Magic? The only thing I have is Reanimator, maybe Greater Marks and Protection of the Horde. Kind of a big deal, you say? What about Blood Magic? Full of Life (5s of regen on 90 HP!), Vampiric (40hp healed on hit! OMG!).

What about any other profession?
Let’s say Guardian.
15 points in Valor -> Valorous Defenses (Aegis on 50% HP! WOW!), Courageous Return (Courage recharged on Rally! OMFG!). Adept skills also do nothing relevant.
15 points in Honor -> Vigorous Precision (Vigor on critical hit, kinda good, but enough?), Selfless Daring (100 hp healed on dodge). Adept traits -> nothing worth taking.

I can continue this kitten for every profession in this game. No profession allows you to run full berserker that carelessly at the cost of ONLY 15 traitpoints. This is the whole point.

Last thing to say: dodge requires skill and timing if you have only few dodges available, not if you have loads of them. In that case, you can just guesstimate when to dodge.

sorrow.2364:

Travlane.5948:

running full bersker has a drawback no matter how you look at it. your hp is crazy low and collateral dmg kills stealthede thieves alot. it happens very very very very fast.

zvz ….stealth is good if ur on extreme edges but a thief in no way will ever split up peopel in large groups. unless u mean hunt down “the” split up sheeps then yes they can do that. but split up sheeps are usually wimping out of a fight and not contributing much if at all anymore so it becomes a zvz and then you vs them kind of deal

So Berserker thief has drawbacks?
Let’s see. Pick a Necromancer/Engineer/Ranger or whatever you want excluding Mesmer. Pick the Berserker amulet. Put MAX 20 traitpoints in a defensive traitline (Toughness or Vitality). Now tell me if you feel as protected as a Thief is with 20 points in Shadow Arts or Acrobatics.

About ZvZ, it is about the melee Thief playstyle. Either you run Shortbow or P/P and attack people from range or you kill the lone sheeps. Every profession dies in the AoE of a big zerg, not only Thief.

Azraeel.1238:

You are all forgetting one main aspect, other than stealth and evade, we don’t have any defensive buffs to actually compensate. To actually dodge 3 times consecutively you need at least 15 in acrobatics, the vitality tree, which also means you are sacrificing dps for it. As for the endurance refill signet, it is good, but not as good as shadow refuge, Shadowstep, and the increase movement signet.

Another thing is, to be able to refill endurance faster, we need to melee, again, without enough toughness, going face to face with anyone could be deadly.

Last thing is dodging requires good timing, unlike popping buffs and taking everything to the face.

You know what 15 traitpoints are worth? Nothing.
Why can’t I have the same survivability on my Necromancer by putting 15 traitpoints into Death Magic? The only thing I have is Reanimator, maybe Greater Marks and Protection of the Horde. Kind of a big deal, you say? What about Blood Magic? Full of Life (5s of regen on 90 HP!), Vampiric (40hp healed on hit! OMG!).

What about any other profession?
Let’s say Guardian.
15 points in Valor -> Valorous Defenses (Aegis on 50% HP! WOW!), Courageous Return (Courage recharged on Rally! OMFG!). Adept skills also do nothing relevant.
15 points in Honor -> Vigorous Precision (Vigor on critical hit, kinda good, but enough?), Selfless Daring (100 hp healed on dodge). Adept traits -> nothing worth taking.

I can continue this kitten for every profession in this game. No profession allows you to run full berserker that carelessly at the cost of ONLY 15 traitpoints. This is the whole point.

Last thing to say: dodge requires skill and timing if you have only few dodges available, not if you have loads of them. In that case, you can just guesstimate when to dodge.

it of course does. i said that too hastily. i was talking in pure output. output is what keeps thief alive since incoming dmg is nearly impossible to reduce.

not all die like thieves do. blocks….aegis …. protection and invulnerabilty will alow ANY player with them to get into the heart of an enemy zerg. or at very least to bunker up in a ball and break enemy formation. especially with stability which wawrriors/guardians and many others have.

Travlane.5948:

not all die like thieves do. blocks….aegis …. protection and invulnerabilty will alow ANY player with them to get into the heart of an enemy zerg. or at very least to bunker up in a ball and break enemy formation. especially with stability which wawrriors/guardians and many others have.

And what then?
What once you have broken the enemy formation and the invulnerability ends? You die because you have no more.

Have you seen any Thief running in an enemy zerg with Dagger Storm dealing massive AoE damage then vanish/teleport away? No? Because I’ve seen many, probably too often.
On the other hand, I’ve never seen a Warrior/Guardian or whatever you say rushing in an enemy zerg with a block/invulnerability. Because it is a plain, easy, simple suicide.

actually i do it alot. but on the offensive side….u have healing ele builds clensing and healing the front lines and hammer warriors with stability using KDS etc and the necros dropping enemies boons and spreading epidemic ……guardians up front too……its a kitten show…….look at BT from TC…..or BP (my guild) from dragonbrand. …. i can find you videos of a 50 v 50……and not ONE of our players being downed……now thats just crazy…..i think we used like 2-3 thieves out of 50 and they ran venom share builds. and blast finished before going in.

sorrow.2364:

Now, Thieves have:
1. The highest single target damage among any profession

what?
not counting aoe that do more than our single target?
or you counting the HS spamming?

and how you stealth after spamming all that HS?

@Brass it is all how you define single target dmg…is it DPS? or single hit ? or sustainable dmg? either way mesmer wins the ghighest dmg. they are beasts.

Dis means "no backstabbin in the area" and it’s sucks, sure.

sorrow.2364:

Azraeel.1238:

You are all forgetting one main aspect, other than stealth and evade, we don’t have any defensive buffs to actually compensate. To actually dodge 3 times consecutively you need at least 15 in acrobatics, the vitality tree, which also means you are sacrificing dps for it. As for the endurance refill signet, it is good, but not as good as shadow refuge, Shadowstep, and the increase movement signet.

Another thing is, to be able to refill endurance faster, we need to melee, again, without enough toughness, going face to face with anyone could be deadly.

Last thing is dodging requires good timing, unlike popping buffs and taking everything to the face.

You know what 15 traitpoints are worth? Nothing.
Why can’t I have the same survivability on my Necromancer by putting 15 traitpoints into Death Magic? The only thing I have is Reanimator, maybe Greater Marks and Protection of the Horde. Kind of a big deal, you say? What about Blood Magic? Full of Life (5s of regen on 90 HP!), Vampiric (40hp healed on hit! OMG!).

What about any other profession?
Let’s say Guardian.
15 points in Valor -> Valorous Defenses (Aegis on 50% HP! WOW!), Courageous Return (Courage recharged on Rally! OMFG!). Adept skills also do nothing relevant.
15 points in Honor -> Vigorous Precision (Vigor on critical hit, kinda good, but enough?), Selfless Daring (100 hp healed on dodge). Adept traits -> nothing worth taking.

I can continue this kitten for every profession in this game. No profession allows you to run full berserker that carelessly at the cost of ONLY 15 traitpoints. This is the whole point.

Last thing to say: dodge requires skill and timing if you have only few dodges available, not if you have loads of them. In that case, you can just guesstimate when to dodge.

Oh please, you are giving this ONE EXTRA DODGE way too much credit. Well guess what? In my thief’s build I don’t have 15 in acrobatics, and I play just fine. If I added 5 points to acrobatics, I will either lose the 100% critical damage from stealth, or the healing while in stealth, and both of them suit me WAY better for my gameplay (0/30/30/10/0). After the 4 seconds revealed I doubt anyone is going with full zerker builds, unless you enjoy running around with 900 toughness and 11k hp… My toughness is 1350 and I have almost 16k HP.

Just for your information, my main is a Necro and I also have an 80 guardian. For the necro the deathshroud is just an awesome defensive mechanic, I can’t count the number of times it saved my behind. As for the Guardian, they have shouts with VERY low cooldowns that give them protection, regeneration, aegis, swiftness, retaliation, and stability. Do not compare things literary, like you did with the silly trait comparison, take the WHOLE picture instead.

Travlane.5948:

@Brass it is all how you define single target dmg…is it DPS? or single hit ? or sustainable dmg? either way mesmer wins the ghighest dmg. they are beasts.

let me quote another post

Evilek.5690:

Thief vs Warrior dmg.
7719 vs 15743

and let me add, I don’t even give a kitten to warrior dps. It’s engi, guardian and necros that are really potent.

Is that Jon Peters 5 signet warrior?!! Ohh wait never mind I see a banner couldn’t be him. carry on

make thief class abilities immune to the stealth traps, have it work on the MASS invisibility and such from mesmers (or Thief’s combo field?) when MULTIPLE people are in it.

Having stealth traps effect the very design of a class (thief) is a joke, its like an anti chaos/glamour/clone trap which makes mesmer literally blue butterfly’s, or maybe have healing rip traps which strip the funny absurd healing from guardians and a weapon ripping trap that works on warriors?

i’m no thief, im a mesmer but these traps cannot effect the thief’s class design, its wrong.

EDIT: we will; have to see exactly how these work, if it works mainly in and around towers etc where there is usually a zerg, fair enough stealth is not too much use in these situations, and do they have to be detonated?

traps could be awesome if done right.

anti stealth trap field.
hm… its just like one of those anti invisible unit some moba used…
it won’t change anything if its radius is small.. the thief can just range away with pistol whip and the likes..
if it has 3000 radius…..

Azraeel.1238:

Oh please, you are giving this ONE EXTRA DODGE way too much credit. Well guess what? In my thief’s build I don’t have 15 in acrobatics, and I play just fine. If I added 5 points to acrobatics, I will either lose the 100% critical damage from stealth, or the healing while in stealth, and both of them suit me WAY better for my gameplay (0/30/30/10/0). After the 4 seconds revealed I doubt anyone is going with full zerker builds, unless you enjoy running around with 900 toughness and 11k hp… My toughness is 1350 and I have almost 16k HP.

Just for your information, my main is a Necro and I also have an 80 guardian. For the necro the deathshroud is just an awesome defensive mechanic, I can’t count the number of times it saved my behind. As for the Guardian, they have shouts with VERY low cooldowns that give them protection, regeneration, aegis, swiftness, retaliation, and stability. Do not compare things literary, like you did with the silly trait comparison, take the WHOLE picture instead.

1. That isn’t ONE EXTRA DODGE. It is actually one extra dodge per endurance bar + vigor on healing which, combined with Withdraw, means 5 extra dodges (including Withdraw’s dodge).

2. You did not need that 5 points in Acrobatic because you already have 15 points in Shadow Arts. You don’t actually need them both. What I said about acrobatic applies the same at Shadow Arts. Probably you better need 20 points, but it is the same anyway.

3. *critical chance

4. I do run full zerker, like most of thieves do, and we actually succed at it. Are we super-pro or is the Thief design too much forgiving?

5. With short shout cooldown you mean 30 sec. minimum? Stealth is on a way shorter cooldown, btw.

6. Death Shroud is a crap defensive mechanic. What it does is actually giving you a fraction of extra health every 10 seconds at the cost of wiping away any defensive skill, any stunbreaker and any heal, fueled by a constantly degenerating Life Force which you don’t have at the start of the match but you have to hardly build it up, something you won’t do anyway if you’re running on scepter. And guess what… You have no other defensive mechanic while you are building Life Force up. Basically, you are taking hit and CC over and over hoping you HP are enough.
Yeah, Death Shroud is really awesome…

Is their any info on these?

Clickable from inventory or do they take a slot skill? How large is the field, how long does it last etc? Any lingering debuff or can we step out side it and instant stealth?

AlBundy.7851:

Is that Jon Peters 5 signet warrior?!! Ohh wait never mind I see a banner couldn’t be him. carry on

lol

Bailey.6892:

Is their any info on these?

Clickable from inventory or do they take a slot skill? How large is the field, how long does it last etc? Any lingering debuff or can we step out side it and instant stealth?

Sadly, still zero information. We’ll find out soon enough.

Sebrent.3625:

Bailey.6892:

Is their any info on these?

Clickable from inventory or do they take a slot skill? How large is the field, how long does it last etc? Any lingering debuff or can we step out side it and instant stealth?

Sadly, still zero information. We’ll find out soon enough.

Wouldn’t a test server be nice….

Bailey.6892:

Sebrent.3625:

Bailey.6892:

Is their any info on these?

Clickable from inventory or do they take a slot skill? How large is the field, how long does it last etc? Any lingering debuff or can we step out side it and instant stealth?

Sadly, still zero information. We’ll find out soon enough.

Wouldn’t a test server be nice….

I 100% agree. It could even keep patch days from being:
“patch + patch + patch + patch + more patches tomorrow”

Sebrent.3625:

…

Lol, you can trash your math-trick now, you can’t compare cooldowns with initiative with this trick. Low cooldown skills can be spammed and chained in between long cooldown skills without the spam limiting the use of the long cooldown skills. A luxury you don’t have with the initiative system.

frans.8092:

Sebrent.3625:

…

Lol, you can trash your math-trick now, you can’t compare cooldowns with initiative with this trick. Low cooldown skills can be spammed and chained in between long cooldown skills without the spam limiting the use of the long cooldown skills. A luxury you don’t have with the initiative system.

(1) I don’t know what post you’re quoting so the context here is a bit lost on me

(2) You are correct. Hence the tradeoffs of the two different systems.

(3) Using math isn’t a “trick”.

swinsk.6410:

Can we get fields that remove invuln/block/protection/etc?

I see this as only fair.

Hahahahah. Are you trolling? Just spam number 3 with sword like most thieves do now and STEAL all the boons from the target. This needs a nerf in my opinion. It really needs to cost more initiative and steal only one boon.

It costs thieves 4 initiative. 3 for for flanking strike and 1 for larcenous strike. They can do that 3 times with a full initiative bar (not counting initiative regen nor traits). That all of their initiative in exchange for stealing a max of 6 boons.

Honestly, I’m not quite sure why they should be allowed to steal them instead of simply destroy them, but ArenaNet presumably has a plan. We just have to be patient I guess while they implement while being very hush-hush.

Sebrent.3625:

(3) Using math isn’t a “trick”.

The math is not the trick, but the translation between two cost systems is. A trick is not a negative within a math context btw.

frans.8092:

Sebrent.3625:

(3) Using math isn’t a “trick”.

The math is not the trick, but the translation between two cost systems is. A trick is not a negative within a math context btw.

Mind answering (1) so I can better reply to you?

I believe the comparison of initiative to cooldowns was later elaborated on by me within the context of Necro Staff versus Thief Shortbow … highlighting what you said in your other post.

Sebrent.3625:

Mind answering (1) so I can better reply to you?

Your translation from cooldown time to initiative via initiative regeneration. You’ve been using that in a number of posts, but if you follow the quote-link you’ll go back to a lengthy post of yours on the previous page

I believe the comparison of initiative to cooldowns was later elaborated on by me

While I admire your dedication and respect the work involved, mixing math with very specific play use-cases is always prone to … mistakes. I doubt this specific use-case sees much use in actual gameplay.

frans.8092:

Sebrent.3625:

Mind answering (1) so I can better reply to you?

Your translation from cooldown time to initiative via initiative regeneration. You’ve been using that in a number of posts, but if you follow the quote-link you’ll go back to a lengthy post of yours on the previous page

I believe the comparison of initiative to cooldowns was later elaborated on by me

While I admire your dedication and respect the work involved, mixing math with very specific play use-cases is always prone to … mistakes. I doubt this specific use-case sees much use in actual gameplay.

Oh okay. Thanks.

I agree that you can’t just use math.

My methodology when it comes to games is:
(1) Get idea
(2) Work out math for idea
(3) Test idea
(4) If test results in it feeling like the play and math match, success … else tweak/reset.

However, since my rig lags up on me when I’m merely testing something on a dummy with fraps running, I can’t go beyond that on here, so I can only show you guys the math part.

… my fault for investing more in my wife and sons than in my computer ;-)

What do I think about Anti-Stealth traps?
First, traps simply appease players without resolving the simple problem: thief class lacks multiple viable builds (only “Cloaked Ambush Rogue”). If it weren’t for backstab, I’d argue that hammer warrior is a better dps choice. The truth is that ambush build is too valuable due to its (near) monopoly over thief gameplay. Thus changes have too drastic an impact on thief gameplay.

Besides anti-stealth traps does not really affect Zerg vs. Zerg (WvW) since 1v1s don’t matter in that mode (1 person can’t cap a tower or keep). Thieves also only win 1v3s against zerglings who are newb to small scale fights. Hopefully, the zerglings are buying a lot of Molten Pickaxes so this nerf craze isn’t entirely pointless for everybody.

In the meantime, my beloved charr thief will collect dust unless i need to spend karma or thief class is actually balanced (hah!). That being said, I will continue to employ my current solution: make lv 80 alts and main another class!

Ekemeister.8905:

What do I think about Anti-Stealth traps?
First, traps simply appease players without resolving the simple problem: thief class lacks multiple viable builds (only “Cloaked Ambush Rogue”). If it weren’t for backstab, I’d argue that hammer warrior is a better dps choice. The truth is that ambush build is too valuable due to its (near) monopoly over thief gameplay. Thus changes have too drastic an impact on thief gameplay.

Besides anti-stealth traps does not really affect Zerg vs. Zerg (WvW) since 1v1s don’t matter in that mode (1 person can’t cap a tower or keep). Thieves also only win 1v3s against zerglings who are newb to small scale fights. Hopefully, the zerglings are buying a lot of Molten Pickaxes so this nerf craze isn’t entirely pointless for everybody.

In the meantime, my beloved charr thief will collect dust unless i need to spend karma or thief class is actually balanced (hah!). That being said, I will continue to employ my current solution: make lv 80 alts and main another class!

yes the “invis rogue attack” thief is the number 1 type of builds for thieves….however i would like to say not only bc of backstab. but more than not bc of the defensive reasons.

AOE blinds on stealth
heals in stealth
regeneration on stealth
2 intiative per stealth
intiative regen in stealth
multiple condis removed on stealth
sets up special attacks (high dmg / daze / bleeds)
escape option
50% increase move
might on stealth

plus the obvious “you cant target me”…….those are much more important to a thief than backstab….. i am not downplaying BS im just saying its this that makes the build the best. even if backstab diddnt deal double it would still be the best thief build.

without invis…there is no other access to these traits other than one that procs after 60 secs…..and one that gives might but only for 5 secs….. both not really going to keep a build up and running long.