Guild Wars 2

what are you reading? i wasnt the one who started the comparison. i was just putting in some info. and i never said thief is weak. i love them they are fun to play…weak or strong. they are great and prolly the best/tied for the best in 1 v 1. but in the bottom 2 when it comes to larger group play. just the facts. necros would def love their marks on intiative… but that means they lose their 2nd weaponswet like we do :P so they go from 8 attacks spammed to 3? idk :P lol tough call. cluster bomb is better than all necro AOES except for one necro that does liek 1535 base dmg on it…(forgot name) but cluster can take 4 seconds to hit ground…..so it comes at a severe handicap.

Dasorine.1964:

Im not touching that one, someone else can reply to that mess of incorrect maths and assumptions

Do please show where my math is incorrect? Else, don’t make such claims.

I showed my math to back up my claims … do the same … if you can, of course

Travlane.5948:

seems like its the same 3-4 people trolling thief forums as usual. the plethora of skills i poitned out were like 20% weapon skills. the rest were utilities or effects of F mechanics and elites etc

Disagreeing with you and actually showing the math to back up my claims and counter yours is not trolling, but that’s cute.

Now, to your point about 20% weapon skills, let’s assume that the Necromancer has spent their trait points on getting 20% faster recharge times on all of their skills. Obviously, that will simply make their values for “initiative” 20% smaller …

Necromancer w/ traits for 20% faster recharges for everything weapon

• Total = 187.52 “initiative” over 16 skills
• Average = 11.72 “initiative”
• Minimum = 3.6 “initiative”
• Maximum = 24.08 “initiative”

Thief with no traits allocated

• Total = 76 initiative over 17 skills
• Average = 4.47 initiative
• Minimum = 3 initiative
• Maximum = 6 initiative

Travlane.5948:

the only AOE dmg skill a thief has is CLUSTER BOMB the rest are all conditions. nice try tho i like the effort. if u wanna play like that i can add in another 20 necro skills that are aoe conditions. i didnt choose those i only chose the ones with direct dmg. but i bet you looked at them and noticed that? i dont half -a** things.

You don’t? I’ve yet to see any proofs, sources, etc. for your claims.

I don’t see what is wrong with clusterbomb and being able to cast it more than once. It’s a really good skill.

Travlane.5948:

and again i ask you for examples how how a thief can not be predictable so i wouldnt bash your statement up front and give you a chance to elaborate. but you didnt. hence a thief kinda being forced to rinse and repeat the same combos til it works. only s/d has enough combinations with utilities to keep em guessing.

A thief can not be predictable by:

• Not using stealth right when they are in range to use it
• Not breaking stealth every time with an attack
• Feigning a skill
• Changing up the order in which they chain some abilities
• Reacting to their opponent instead of simply trying a combo

All simple stuff.

While I agree that Sword + Dagger is the best thief weapon set, it is not the only one that can keep people guessing.

Heck, if the Mesmer community thought and acted like thieves did, we’d be be getting buffs instead of nerfs. Instead, we show some creativity, initiative, etc.

so you go from saying thief combos are stay to thieves can keep people guessing with multiple sets after listing the normal/meta combos. contradict yourself much? thieves dont act like anything…we react to trolls / QQers.

feign what skill?
change the order of a combo and it wont work. best is to add autos/change timing
reacting is a pro skill….ur right tho most dont. best ones do.
not using stealth right away doesnt change combos.

and again ive given hard guess numbers/%s etc u have not. maybe its too hard? idk. but take my challenge or stop yakkin about it. its a perfect chance for BOTH of us and the forum readers to find out the truth. and it has to be you vs me so you cant call it “oh he didnt try”.

i have an idea but i dotn wanna influence your answer…. how did you come up with the “necromancers intiative”

Travlane.5948:

so you go from saying thief combos are stay to thieves can keep people guessing with multiple sets after listing the normal/meta combos. contradict yourself much? thieves dont act like anything…we react to trolls / QQers.

feign what skill?
change the order of a combo and it wont work. best is to add autos/change timing
reacting is a pro skill….ur right tho most dont. best ones do.
not using stealth right away doesnt change combos.

Listing commonly used combos and saying that Thieves should think beyond just the use of combos is not a contradiction.

Watch a good thief. He may try a combo, but it isn’t all that he tries. He may try to first bait out known or guessed counters his foe’s class has against the combo(s) he wants to land.

Watch a bad thief. He tries a combo or two. When it fails, there is a pause as he thinks to himself “oh crap, what do I do now”. This results in either him running or dying.

Simply changing when you do/don’t stealth does change things.

Changing how you move does as well. You could move in like you’re going to initiate a combo and then back off at the last second or do something else unexpected. Xeviel does this stuff all the time. Watch him and Deus Ex Tree (Ranger) fight and you’ll see them feign all the time. Deus even feign with the pet, pulling it back at the last second to prevent Xeviel getting a C&D on it.

Travlane.5948:

and again ive given hard guess numbers/%s etc u have not. maybe its too hard?

You can’t have “hard guess numbers”. Hard numbers are not guesses. All you have is numbers you pulled from your rectum to suit yourself.

When there have been numbers, I’ve used them … hence the numbers showing necro cooldowns in comparison to thief initiative.

Travlane.5948:

idk. but take my challenge or stop yakkin about it. its a perfect chance for BOTH of us and the forum readers to find out the truth. and it has to be you vs me so you cant call it “oh he didnt try”.

As I’ve said in PMs and on the other threads, you don’t test something like this using the people involved that want it to go one way or another. It skews the data. It’d be like having someone “taste test” something but that person wants one chef to beat the other. It isn’t an accurate test.

Plus, we don’t need to, there are plenty of videos out there already showing backstabs hitting and missing. Watch the high level duels and you’ll see all classes missing several of their skills as that is what happens at the highest level of play as the players know how and when to dodge, block, etc.

Travlane.5948:

i have an idea but i dotn wanna influence your answer…. how did you come up with the “necromancers intiative”

As far as the necromancer’s initiative, I included that in the post … but here it is again since you didn’t read that.

Initiative regenerates at 1 initiative per 1.33 seconds.
I took the cooldown of each necromancer skill and divided it by 1.33. That’s how many “initiative” it costs.

Travlane.5948:

what are you reading? i wasnt the one who started the comparison. i was just putting in some info. and i never said thief is weak. i love them they are fun to play…weak or strong. they are great and prolly the best/tied for the best in 1 v 1. but in the bottom 2 when it comes to larger group play. just the facts. necros would def love their marks on intiative… but that means they lose their 2nd weaponswet like we do :P so they go from 8 attacks spammed to 3? idk :P lol tough call. cluster bomb is better than all necro AOES except for one necro that does liek 1535 base dmg on it…(forgot name) but cluster can take 4 seconds to hit ground…..so it comes at a severe handicap.

1. You are the one who took someone’s example who mentioned Necro to start a whole 4-page Necro-Thief comparison.
2. Reading the OP, it doesn’t look like you think Thief isn’t weak.
Just quoting you:

Thieves IMO are not a choice for TPVP and have basically 1 role in wvw (venom share or Maybe scouting). You cant even shadow step across a trap without setting it off……

being useful/needed would be nice to hear when you see a LFG dungeon or when setting up wvw raids with individual battalions setup to be balanced .

what defense will a thief then have? what role? this has to hurt their money as thieves wont spend money on a game they cant play/play well or at all :P idk

Unless I have comprehension problems, these posts show your disappointment about the Thief class; you apparently doesn’t find it strong enough.

the guy said necros were basically QQ because there were so bad :P but in a zerg they are amazing…..i asked my zone and my guild and there was not 1 person who said that thieves are better/more dmging in a zerg. idk maybe they are all dumdums :P?

those dont show my dissapointment. i was disapaointed in thieves id play somethign else. they have weak points…they have strong points…. i pointed out that in TPVP and in ZERGS they really arent top prospects. its true. here lemme balance it out….. when im roaming or farming PVE my thief is sooooo amazing…not to mention the in combat mobility is to die for. theres nothign more fun that confusing an enemy and when they try to swing at you u port out then back in then dodge then blind then jump em. super cool there now i pointed out good stuff lol. if you notice….i never said i want higher defense or higher hp….i just said it would be nice to feel “wanted” when making a team or to hear commander say"thieves your turn do your job" which is only to prebattle blast finish buff :/ but still.

No no Travlane, it doesn’t matter what your guildies say … or really the fact that you claim they said something.

What matters is you complained about how the Necromancer has more AOEs. Another player complained about how others have more skill uses from cooldowns than Thieves do from initiative.

What matters is I read those two things and did the math for both of you and showed that both of you are very incorrect.

Would you like to address that matter or are you going to still skirt around it and talk about other things?

i didnt complain. i was boasting…(that means bragging) how good necros are. what are ya missing? :P theres like a total of 3 players in game/forums that have really ever disagreed with me to an extent. seberent teamkiller shadowskill …..troll on. btw necromances are NASTY i choose them over thief if i had to make a dream team. and i dont even play necros much

The guy has never played a Thief, thats clear at this point. I would guess he has also never played a Necro.

Hey Trav,

Sebrent.3625:

What matters is you complained about how the Necromancer has more AOEs. Another player complained about how others have more skill uses from cooldowns than Thieves do from initiative.

What matters is I read those two things and did the math for both of you and showed that both of you are very incorrect.

Would you like to address that matter or are you going to still skirt around it and talk about other things?

I’d love to hear.

PearlGore.7419:

The guy has never played a Thief, thats clear at this point. I would guess he has also never played a Necro.

Incorrect on both fronts.

However, I’ll entertain the notion.

Let’s assume I’ve never played either of these classes. How does this effect the math that I have put forth?

Go ahead and take your time. I’ll be waiting.

Sebrent.3625:

PearlGore.7419:

The guy has never played a Thief, thats clear at this point. I would guess he has also never played a Necro.

Incorrect on both fronts.

However, I’ll entertain the notion.

Let’s assume I’ve never played either of these classes. How does this effect the math that I have put forth?

Go ahead and take your time. I’ll be waiting.

You tell me, you are the one trolling.

Travlane.5948:

i didnt complain. i was boasting…(that means bragging) how good necros are. what are ya missing? :P theres like a total of 3 players in game/forums that have really ever disagreed with me to an extent. seberent teamkiller shadowskill …..troll on. btw necromances are NASTY i choose them over thief if i had to make a dream team. and i dont even play necros much

…

and i dont even play necros much

I never doubted that.
Half of the Necro community GW2 had has already rerolled to another main character. I think you should find by yourself why.
Just consider that Necros have never been FotM. Never.

They are also getting buffed patch after patch. You’d say “How, that’s fantastic! Lucky Necros!”. No, it’s not.
I’d prefer 100x times to get a nerf then a small, little buff every patch. At least I had the feel to have used something too powerful which deserved a nerf.

PearlGore.7419:

Sebrent.3625:

PearlGore.7419:

The guy has never played a Thief, thats clear at this point. I would guess he has also never played a Necro.

Incorrect on both fronts.

However, I’ll entertain the notion.

Let’s assume I’ve never played either of these classes. How does this effect the math that I have put forth?

Go ahead and take your time. I’ll be waiting.

You tell me, you are the one trolling.

I’m not the one making the claim, it isn’t my job to prove something that you claim.

Again, putting forth the math about something when someone makes a claim about it is not trolling.

sorrow.2364:

Travlane.5948:

i didnt complain. i was boasting…(that means bragging) how good necros are. what are ya missing? :P theres like a total of 3 players in game/forums that have really ever disagreed with me to an extent. seberent teamkiller shadowskill …..troll on. btw necromances are NASTY i choose them over thief if i had to make a dream team. and i dont even play necros much

…

and i dont even play necros much

I never doubted that.
Half of the Necro community GW2 had has already rerolled to another main character. I think you should find by yourself why.
Just consider that Necros have never been FotM. Never.

They are also getting buffed patch after patch. You’d say “How, that’s fantastic! Lucky Necros!”. No, it’s not.
I’d prefer 100x times to get a nerf then a small, little buff every patch. At least I had the feel to have used something too powerful which deserved a nerf.

i understand what you mean. but necros are prolly the best zerg players in the game. best at conditions (arguable with engineers) best at aoe CC….good aoe dmg….and lots of HP / hp skills :P . 1 v 1? prolly not jaw droppers or show stoppers but to each their own. are they op ? no. do they need a lil love? yes but who doesnt. i played main monk in gw1. i prefer to be behind the scenes and the “needed character” that people rely ont o make a group run smoothly like a well oiled machine. i really miss that part ni an MMO. i wish they would give us that as a new class soon.

Best AOE CC? Based on what? Let’s go ask Elementalists and Engineers how they feel about you handing their trophy to the Necromancers.

Good AOE Dmg? Then Thief’s must be outstanding given what I showed earlier … which contradicts the complaints you put forth earlier about Thieves.

Lots of HP? That’s wonderful. Ask them how that’s working out for them given their lack of active defenses other than Death Shroud which is really just another hp bar and thus really more of a passive defense aside from actually using it.

Also, I’m still waiting to hear from you on that math that shows your claims to be wrong.

Sebrent.3625:

Best AOE CC? Based on what? Let’s go ask Elementalists and Engineers how they feel about you handing their trophy to the Necromancers.

Good AOE Dmg? Then Thief’s must be outstanding given what I showed earlier … which contradicts the complaints you put forth earlier about Thieves.

Lots of HP? That’s wonderful. Ask them how that’s working out for them given their lack of active defenses other than Death Shroud which is really just another hp bar and thus really more of a passive defense aside from actually using it.

---

Also, I’m still waiting to hear from you on that math that shows your claims to be wrong.

You are aware Necros are one of the most important parts of the current ZvZ meta right? Why do you think that is?

Travlane’s “math” is hilarious.

I instantly get a bowl of popcorn and joyfully scoot in close to the screen on any thread where he starts pulling out the ole’ X and Y equations.

PearlGore.7419:

Sebrent.3625:

Best AOE CC? Based on what? Let’s go ask Elementalists and Engineers how they feel about you handing their trophy to the Necromancers.

Good AOE Dmg? Then Thief’s must be outstanding given what I showed earlier … which contradicts the complaints you put forth earlier about Thieves.

Lots of HP? That’s wonderful. Ask them how that’s working out for them given their lack of active defenses other than Death Shroud which is really just another hp bar and thus really more of a passive defense aside from actually using it.

---

Also, I’m still waiting to hear from you on that math that shows your claims to be wrong.

You are aware Necros are one of the most important parts of the current ZvZ meta right? Why do you think that is?

The prevalance of high boon up-time builds and the Necromancer’s ability to corrupt/remove boons as well as masterfully manipulate the conditions meta-game.

However, that has nothing to do with the claims made earlier. So what’s your point?

Sebrent.3625:

PearlGore.7419:

Sebrent.3625:

Best AOE CC? Based on what? Let’s go ask Elementalists and Engineers how they feel about you handing their trophy to the Necromancers.

Good AOE Dmg? Then Thief’s must be outstanding given what I showed earlier … which contradicts the complaints you put forth earlier about Thieves.

Lots of HP? That’s wonderful. Ask them how that’s working out for them given their lack of active defenses other than Death Shroud which is really just another hp bar and thus really more of a passive defense aside from actually using it.

---

Also, I’m still waiting to hear from you on that math that shows your claims to be wrong.

You are aware Necros are one of the most important parts of the current ZvZ meta right? Why do you think that is?

The prevalance of high boon up-time builds and the Necromancer’s ability to corrupt/remove boons as well as masterfully manipulate the conditions meta-game.

However, that has nothing to do with the claims made earlier. So what’s your point?

You realy Don’t know? I’m sorry then were done.

PearlGore.7419:

Sebrent.3625:

PearlGore.7419:

Sebrent.3625:

Best AOE CC? Based on what? Let’s go ask Elementalists and Engineers how they feel about you handing their trophy to the Necromancers.

Good AOE Dmg? Then Thief’s must be outstanding given what I showed earlier … which contradicts the complaints you put forth earlier about Thieves.

Lots of HP? That’s wonderful. Ask them how that’s working out for them given their lack of active defenses other than Death Shroud which is really just another hp bar and thus really more of a passive defense aside from actually using it.

---

Also, I’m still waiting to hear from you on that math that shows your claims to be wrong.

You are aware Necros are one of the most important parts of the current ZvZ meta right? Why do you think that is?

The prevalance of high boon up-time builds and the Necromancer’s ability to corrupt/remove boons as well as masterfully manipulate the conditions meta-game.

However, that has nothing to do with the claims made earlier. So what’s your point?

You realy Don’t know? I’m sorry then were done.

Lol. Their ability to manipulate boons and conditions was not mentioned nor does it have anything to do with the claims of

• “necro has so much more AOE than thief”
• “other classes can use more skills with cooldowns than thief with initiative”

I’m not done. You can be since you won’t actually answer anything.

I’m still waiting on travlane or any of you others that made and/or supported those claims to speak up about the math.

Let’s not forget thieves can actually go builds with no stealth. I admit, it’s unorthodox, but it can be done, and can probably be made viable.
Think for example a gundagger thief. If you keep your range they will have to come to you, at which point you can stab-stealth-shoot them outside their fields or just teleport away. What this field is meant to do, I think, is to counter stealth backstabs, and it’s always been one of my biggest bugbearers, so I’m fine with it.

Stooperdale.3560:

“Can we get fields that remove invuln/block/protection/etc?”

I don’t know, how about we get skills on our weapons that steal boons from the opponents? Cheap, repeatable, can be used anywhere, but that would never happen would it?

A weapon ain’t a field. And spare me the crap this isn’t aimed at thieves from all the forum qq over them stealthing all the time. This is fine, as long as we get a field that removes a guards ability to crazy heal themselves and buff allies, a mezz to inflict confusion or spawn clones, a necros ability to use minions and drop wells, a warrs ability to use their adrenaline, a ranger can’t use pets or vines…..

And no. I don’t run a stealth thief. I run one of the tankiest builds you can and dive into kitten like a tank. And usually live. Am a tank evade thief. Dun mean I can’t tell this isn’t yet another nerf aimed at thieves tho.

Travlane.5948:

i understand what you mean. but necros are prolly the best zerg players in the game. best at conditions (arguable with engineers) best at aoe CC….good aoe dmg….and lots of HP / hp skills :P . 1 v 1? prolly not jaw droppers or show stoppers but to each their own. are they op ? no. do they need a lil love? yes but who doesnt. i played main monk in gw1. i prefer to be behind the scenes and the “needed character” that people rely ont o make a group run smoothly like a well oiled machine. i really miss that part ni an MMO. i wish they would give us that as a new class soon.

I played GW1 too. There is no profession as Monk in Guild Wars 2, something everyone’s need to run a game. This is a bless in my point of view.

I renew the invite to try from yourself the Necromancer.
I guarantee that high HP pool is completely useless with no combat mobility, damage mitigation, no good stunbreakers, no stability and no vigor. You’ll last a couple of hits more, but you’re going to die anyway.

PearlGore.7419:

You are aware Necros are one of the most important parts of the current ZvZ meta right? Why do you think that is?

You sure?
I thought they were Elementalists and Engineers. But hey, this is GW2 forum, not the game.

eles and engineers are good classes but necro is easily the best /mvp of zerging . :P believe what you want. and obv there is no monk….and less reliance on group tactics.

Travlane.5948:

eles and engineers are good classes but necro is easily the best /mvp of zerging . :P believe what you want. and obv there is no monk….and less reliance on group tactics.

Again, you’re making a claim but not backing it up with anything …

… you’re also still ignoring the math laid out before everyone that disputes your last such claims that you made without anything to back them up.

Please stop making claims or start backing them up.

wow you took the words i said to you. again for the 9th time? i made charts…%s….ratios….examples….scenarios… ive backed up enough and even made a challenge to put the argument to rest….u wont take the challenge bc u dont even know how to play thief.

back up your comment that my comment isnt backed up. what ur doing is very “nananabooboo” ish. grow up.

Sebrent.3625:

Now look at the low (and zero) initiative cost of these skills and compare them to the Necromancer’s cooldowns on their staff and that base initiative regen is 1 per 1.33 sec:

• 6 / 1.33 = 4.5 initiative
• 20 / 1.33 = 15 initiative
• 25 / 1.33 = 18.8 initiative
• 40 / 1.33 = 30.1 initiative

So, seeing as how your most expensive AOE is 4 initiative and their quickest AOE cooldown is equivalent to the regen of 4.5 initiative … what exactly are you complaining about?

The rest of those staff AOEs have cooldowns equivalent to 15 to 30 initiative regeneration.

This is just another example of Thieves complaining about stuff that is only in their heads due to limited knowledge and/or skill.

1. Nothing wrong with thief aoe, people who think so don’t know what they’re talking about and listen to other qqers too much.

2. You really shouldn’t try to compare necro aoe and thief aoe. If you’re using that initiative logic then the necro still wins out b/c their “initiative” regen isn’t on all their skills but on each individual skill. All the necro marks will do less dmg than the dmg from all the cluster bombs however they get a lot of bonus effects. The aa and marks (if traited) give life force which is basically like saying it heals the necro (2nd life bar and all). They are all also instant cast and 1200 range with a multiple conditions, debuffs, aoe cleanse/condition transfer, cc, and has a field and finisher combined. Marks can also be giant and unblockable.

3. After the initial burst (where the necro has the advantage), the thief will get a slight edge where they will be able to put out more cluster bombs than the necro will be able to put out marks. This is evened out once other marks come off cd as it is the equivalent of getting a massive spike of initiative to use the skill immediately.

4. This is all with the theory that you put forward, assuming that the thief isn’t using roll for ini or getting initiative return on crits. In a normal circumstance a thief would win if you were both in melee range and using nothing but marks and cluster bomb.

5. Thing is though, both classes act and feel different so I have no idea why this horrible comparison was made. Thief and necro are almost nothing alike so they shouldn’t be compared. Necro is also an aoe class that gets to swap to other aoe weapons and go to death shroud for more aoe with aoe utilities and traits. Comparing the 2 is completely stupid and pointless. It makes as much sense as an aoe condition necro to complain thief b/c it can’t spike as high as zerker thief.

@randomfight lol well said. somebody said that necros were QQing or somethign a couple of days ago and it spilled into this …..something about 1 v 1 and necros are horrible and i said they are the most needed/wanted of zerg play and went on to say how they actually out dmg/out perform thieves bc a thief would have to do more dmg that aoe.

randomfightfan.4091:

1. Nothing wrong with thief aoe, people who think so don’t know what they’re talking about and listen to other qqers too much.

I agree.

randomfightfan.4091:

2. You really shouldn’t try to compare necro aoe and thief aoe. If you’re using that initiative logic then the necro still wins out b/c their “initiative” regen isn’t on all their skills but on each individual skill. All the necro marks will do less dmg than the dmg from all the cluster bombs however they get a lot of bonus effects. The aa and marks (if traited) give life force which is basically like saying it heals the necro (2nd life bar and all). They are all also instant cast and 1200 range with a multiple conditions, debuffs, aoe cleanse/condition transfer, cc, and has a field and finisher combined. Marks can also be giant and unblockable.

I disagree with you because:

• The fastest cooldown, even with 20% faster recharge, was equivalent to more than the time it takes to regenerate 3 initiative which is the cost of a clusterbomb if you don’t detonate. So you could cast 2 clusterbombs and detonate 1 in the time the necro can cast that one mark twice.
• The rest of the necro marks could be cast in the same time as several more marks

Also:

• Marks being “giant” requires a trait
• Marks being unblockable requires a trait

It doesn’t mean you’re wrong, but that should be taken into account. They are sacrificing from somewhere else in order to gain those perks.

randomfightfan.4091:

3. After the initial burst (where the necro has the advantage), the thief will get a slight edge where they will be able to put out more cluster bombs than the necro will be able to put out marks. This is evened out once other marks come off cd as it is the equivalent of getting a massive spike of initiative to use the skill immediately.

I agree the necro has more AOE burst since a Thief can’t cast clusterbomb as quickly as a necro can use Marks 2 through 5 on their staff. That is where their advantage is in this comparison.

However, what was discussed was “Necros get tons more bags in zerg fights” and “Necros have so much more AOE than Thieves”.

randomfightfan.4091:

4. This is all with the theory that you put forward, assuming that the thief isn’t using roll for ini or getting initiative return on crits. In a normal circumstance a thief would win if you were both in melee range and using nothing but marks and cluster bomb.

Are you suggesting you want to bring wells into this comparison? Those have some pretty long cooldowns as well and Thief can have caltrops and caltrops-on-dodge which are very good in large zerg fights given the low collective IQ of most zergs.

randomfightfan.4091:

5. Thing is though, both classes act and feel different so I have no idea why this horrible comparison was made. Thief and necro are almost nothing alike so they shouldn’t be compared. Necro is also an aoe class that gets to swap to other aoe weapons and go to death shroud for more aoe with aoe utilities and traits. Comparing the 2 is completely stupid and pointless. It makes as much sense as an aoe condition necro to complain thief b/c it can’t spike as high as zerker thief.

One moment and I’ll dig up why the two classes were compared. If you look at the original post where I did the math, you can see I quoted one of those posts.

I agree that both classes act and feel differently. I agree with anyone with thinks that’s the way things should be (else why have different classes?).

Travlane.5948:

@randomfight lol well said. somebody said that necros were QQing or somethign a couple of days ago and it spilled into this …..something about 1 v 1 and necros are horrible and i said they are the most needed/wanted of zerg play and went on to say how they actually out dmg/out perform thieves bc a thief would have to do more dmg that aoe.

You really should try to stick with facts and honesty on a forum since anyone can just scroll back and dig up what you’ve posted.

Someone did say something. Largely that someone is Travlane. Let’s recap some of these posts.

Travlane.5948:

Fact 1 : Thieves are 10x stronger than necros in a “roaming” sense.
Fact 2: Necros are 10x weaker than thieves in a “roaming” sense.
Fact 3: Necros are 10x stronger than thieves in a “team/zerg” sense.
Fact 4: Thieves are 10x weaker than necros in a “team/zerg” sense.
Fact 5: Roaming doesnt matter on any level.
Fact 6: Team/Guild/Zerg play is the most important part of the game.
Fact 7: Only thief roaming builds are called “OP” even tho useless (other than fun)

wait wait wait wait lol… if you think roaming is important or 1 v 1 is important than go to general forums to complain about how your class is sub par in 1 v 1 but OP and AMAZING in zergs…..

Travlane.5948:

im not a sad kid with icecream dropped. no not at all. ive stated facts :P i mean cmon necro is WAY better than thief in zerg fights…imean SOOO much better. all his skills are AOE and affect alot of people with multiple condis…. and on a pulse at that. plus regular attack skills. now a thief only affects 1 target….other than his caltrops skills which is really good but only used in p/d bleed build. venom share is the best thing a thief can do in zerg play. simple. and stealth is the only defense a thief really has other than a few evades that are never used really (excluding endurance bc we all have that)

Travlane.5948:

its usually 4 intiative as you get more total dmg with blowing it up before it lands. and he brought up an example on necros so i elaborated in a “different light” . i mean making necros look horrible is just a travesty. ive met great ones that were just sick 1 v 1 like gorath for example. and they are superb in a group as they spread dmg and conditions around. thieves cant do as much dmg as necros (collectively). if a thief hits 1 person for 1k a necro hits 5 for 600. not as strong in 1 v 1 but stronger in wvw/team play. hands down.

Travlane.5948:

obviously sorrow is not good at math …which is better in a 5 v 5 battle?

A) 5 people doing 1100 damage to 5 targets that have 16.8k hp
B) 5 people doing 2000 damage to 1 target that has 16.8k hp

the correct answer is A.
Lets say each class lands each damage at same rate(1 second per hit dmg) just for comparison. The thief team needs collectively 9 hits of 2k damage against each enemy to kill their 5 targets in the 5 v 5 fight. This means 9 seconds total until each opponent is dead/downed, granted no heals or dmg mitigation of sorts. Now lets say the necro is attacking the same but each is doing 1100 damage to each enemy per second. this means the necro team would need 3 attacks each (cumulatively 6k damage in total each attack) to down/kill the 5 target thieves. if you look at it in a mathematical sense…. the necros are betting in group play. in 1 v 1 it would obviously flip.

Fun Fact: Under this scenario a thief would have to hit each target for 6k per hit each second just to tie the necros and would need 8.4k each hit to out damage the necro/win against them in a 5 v 5.

lets not even go into a computer simulated fight and suggest they each time chain AOE’s and Fears…would be a joke.

Still recapping because there is so much from Travlane

Travlane.5948:

@sorrow

Necro Aoe damage skills:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grim_Specter
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Life_Transfer
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dark_Water
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Necrotic_Grasp
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Feast
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Frozen_Abyss
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deadly_Catch
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unholy_Feast
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Putrid_Explosion
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Corrosive_Poison_Cloud
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_the_Locust
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Plague
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Suffering
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Darkness
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chilling_Wind
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wave_of_Fear
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Mark
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mark_of_Blood
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chilblains
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deathly_Swarm
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Corruption
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spectral_Grasp
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crimson_Tide
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wicked_Spiral
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deadly_Feast
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Scythe
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Locust_Swarm
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wail_of_Doom
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Touch
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Enfeebling_Blood

so necros have little access to aoe dmg?

and im comparing dmg ignoring stuff like CC even tho that would help argument. necros are MUCH better in larger group play. bring facts when u come. not JUST opinions.

Travlane.5948:

my point is they do have reliable. only a few of those are “marks/ground targeting” so even if it only says 275 dmg and a thieves is 450 per auto… i mean that 5 v 5 scenario is still a blow out :P each necro is doing 1375dmg total each per second and each thief is doing 450 :P ….. aoe dmg is always better/goign to out dmg single target dmg in an even match UNLESS that aoe dmg is LESS than 1/5th of the single target dmg.

Travlane.5948:

i dont understand that necros can add in X aoe dmg skills and thieves can add in Y single target dmg skills and when y=x ….the quantity of dmg that x produces will ALWAYS be greater…… :P

Travlane.5948:

so you wanna say that it averages 3 people? or lets up the scenario to a 40 v 40 thieves vs necros. i did 5 v 5 so you could easily comprehend the numbers and %’s . (not a dig its just easier for anyone). 5 v 5 was just low numbers and its easily divided/compared/ratio. realistically its minimum 25 v 25 when a fight happens. more often its 35-50 vs 35-50 on average ….and up to 100+. so yeah i think that more often than not AOES hit more than 3 targets. hence the conversation being about dmg in group fights. even if its only 8 v 8. lets say that it only hits 2 people. if the aoe dmg is half of what the thief single target dmg is they are even. wont even try to go into the fact that necro ice debilitates melee players or what timed fear chains do. or the fact that a necro has access to about idk 6x more hp than a thief. just talkign dmg here.

No worries though, Travlane, you weren’t the only one making these sorts of posts.

PearlGore.7419:

Lets not forget on average a Necromancer will walk away from a zerg with 30-50 bags, a Thief will leave with 0-5. Unless we can sit up on a keep/tower wall and spam 2.

And OFC there is an outcry, all we ever get is things taken away while other classes get new toys all the time. Engi’s and Thieves are red head stepchildren.

Shemsu.8721:

Thats a vastly one sided view. Does a necro’s second weapon set go on cooldown when he uses his skills on the first one? for a thief it does. Can a necro have 8 cooldowns all ticking down while a thief only has one init bar slowly regening? Its been shown many times all classes can use more skills than a thief does, that is the price of being able to use a skill more than once.

This last one by Shemsu is the primary reason I did the math comparing those Necromancer skills’ cooldowns to the initiative regeneration of a Thief.

Does it sorta suck for us? Yeah. However the static nature of fields/traps is going to do very little against the average roaming or mobile zerg thief.

This trap was obviously designed (along with the arrow cart ranks) to add a real and working counter to portal bombing, stealth bombing, and several other tactics that make it nearly impossible to build effective defensive fortifications in WvW.

I’ve been in Pang with at least fifteen arrow carts set up, all manned, and a good 20 players guarding the carts before. That kind of setup should be a nearly impregnable defense without building counter siege to first deal with the short range carts to breach the tunnels.

In stead what happenned is a few mesmer/thief combos kicked on the long stealth from around a corner and portal bombed in 40 people behind the line before the defenders could even do anything about it, completely invalidating what should have been a very tough defensive line.

Traps like these are vital to the health of WvW, as they create an effective means of denial and a real (but costly and non-spammable) counter to portal bombing. Wait and see what else shows up in our balance notes before crying too much doom on this one. I’m betting we see one or two mobility or core survival enhancements this patch as well.

Redo your math sebrent, your wrong as usual. you convert cooldowns to init, but dont convert init regen at all? well thats just plain lazy. since classes with cds each tick on their own, that would be 10.64 init per second for cd classe, so even your giant 30 init skill would be less than 3 seconds to reuse. go back to your mesmer forums, you failed here

Shemsu.8721:

Redo your math sebrent, your wrong as usual. you convert cooldowns to init, but dont convert init regen at all? well thats just plain lazy. since classes with cds each tick on their own, that would be 10.64 init per second for cd classe, so even your giant 30 init skill would be less than 3 seconds to reuse. go back to your mesmer forums, you failed here

While the way you put it is “meh”, you make a good point.

Since the necromancer talk revolves around zerg fighting, aoes, tagging, collecting bags, etc., let’s look at the Necro Staff and the Thief Shortbow since those are these two classes best AOE weapons and the whole “initiative vs cooldowns” debate only affects weapons.

Necromancer Staff

• Necrotic Grasp : 0.75s cast : 0s cd
• Mark of Blood : 0.75s cast : 6s cd
• Chillblains: 0.75s cast : 20s cd
• Putrid Mark: 0.75s cast: 25s cd
• Reaper’s Mark: 0.75s cast: 40s cd

Thief Shortbow

• Trick Shot : 0.25s cast : 0 initiative
• Cluster Bomb : 0.5s cast : 3 initiative (4 total if you detonate)
• Disabling Shot : 0.25 cast : 4 initiative
• Choking Gas : 0.5s cast : 4 initiative
• Infiltrator’s Arrow : ?? cast : 6 initiative

Initiative regenerates at a rate of 1 initiative per 1.33 seconds.

Now, for the sake of simplicity

• We’ll focus on the shortbow’s Cluster Bomb and Choking Gas since they are it’s AOEs that cost initiative
• We’ll just assume Cluster Bomb is always detonated so it has a 4 initiative cost like Choking Gas … so their cast times and initiative cost are now interchangeable and we’ll just say “AOEs” for thief.

Necromancer casts each mark, 2, 3, 4, 5. Given their cast times and cooldowns, by the end of it we’ll have. Given 0.75 * 4 casts, it takes 3 seconds total to cast these 4 marks.

Thief casts their AOES, only able to get off 3 initially given a 4 initiative cost and a max initiative of 12. It takes the Thief 1.5 seconds to get off these three shots. In these 1.5 seconds, only 1.0 second has elapsed since any initiative is missing, so we need another 0.33 seconds before 1 initiative is recouped.

Time elapsed = 3s

Necromancer

• 4 Marks cast (3s)
• Time left for other attacks: 0s
• Mark of Blood : on cooldown @ 3.75s left
• Chillblains: on cooldown @ 18.5s left
• Putrid Mark: on cooldown @ 24.25s left
• Reaper’s mark: on cooldown @ 40s left

Thief

• 3 AOEs cast (1.5s)
• Time left for other attacks: 1.5s
• 0 initiative
• 0.33s till next initiative

So, as discussed previously, the necromancer can spike AOE more initially. I believe everyone that touched on this was in agreement with this, yes?

So let’s fast forward to where Mark of Blood is off cooldown and the necromancer has just finished casting it. that would be a 3.75s + 0.75s = 4.5s fast-forward. Given the thief only needed 0.33s more sec for their next 1 initiative from the last “stopping point” and 1.33 * 3 = 4 and 4 + 0.33 = 4.33 < 4.5, the thief has enough initiative for another AOE.

Time elapsed: 7.5s

Necromancer

• 5 Marks cast (3.75s)
• Time left for other attacks: 3.75
• Mark of Blood : on cooldown @ 6s left
• Chillblains: on cooldown @ 14s left
• Putrid Mark: on cooldown @ 19.75s left
• Reaper’s Mark: on cooldown @ 35.5s left

Thief

• 4 AOEs cast (2.0s)
• Time left for other attacks: 5.5s
• 0 initiative
• 1.16s till next initiative

Fast forward to next Mark of Blood cooldown + cast (6.75s). 6.75 – 1.16 = 5.59s. 5.59 / 1.33 = 4 r 0.27.

Time Elapsed: 14.25s

Necromancer

• 6 Marks cast (4.5s)
• Time left for other attacks: 10.25s
• Mark of Blood : on cooldown @ 6s left
• Chillblains: on cooldown @ 7.25s left
• Putrid Mark: on cooldown @ 13s left
• Reaper’s Mark: on cooldown @ 28.75s left

Thief

• 5 AOEs cast (2.5s)
• Time left for other attacks: 11.75s
• 1 initiative
• 1.06s till next initiative

Fast forward to next Mark of Blood + Chillblains (8.0s). 8.0 / 1.33 = 6 r 0.

Time Elapsed: 22.25s

Necromancer

• 8 Marks cast (6s)
• Time left for other attacks (16.25s)
• Mark of Blood : on cooldown @ 5.25s left
• Chillblains: on cooldown @ 20s left
• Putrid Mark: on cooldown @ 5s left
• Reaper’s Mark: on cooldown @ 20.75s left

Thief

• 6 AOEs cast (3.0s)
• Time left for other attacks: 19.25s
• 3 initiative
• 1.06s till next initiative

Fast forward to next Putrid Mark + Mark of Blood (6.5s). 6.5 – 1.06 = 5.44. 5.44 / 1.33 = 4 r 0.12

Time Elapsed: 28.75s

Necromancer

• 10 Marks cast (7.5s)
• Time left for other attacks: 21.25s
• Mark of Blood : on cooldown @ 6s left
• Chillblains: on cooldown @ 20s left
• Putrid Mark: on cooldown @ 24.25s left
• Reaper’s Mark: on cooldown @ 20.75s left

Thief

• 8 AOEs cast (4.0s)
• Time left for other attacks: 24.75s
• 0 initiative
• 1.21s till next initiative

So, it is looking like the Necromancer can maintain a larger number of AOEs with staff, however, their tight cycle (6s cooldown on blood mark) would be interrupted by weapon swap.

It does not appear to be the “huge difference” that others are trying to make it out to be. However, if you’d like me to continue with more fast-forwards, let me know and I will.

It should be noted that the number of AOEs by the necromancer versus the thief could be more due to how detonating cluster bomb could affect this. That is, the Necromancer could possibly squeeze in an extra mark over time. However, I think given the 6s cooldown on the shortest cooldown mark, that would take 6 to 12 clusterbombs to take effect.

It should also be noted that time not spent AOEing is time spent using other skills.

It should also be noted that the thief can maintain a 100% up-time on poison with shortbow while a Necromancer cannot … this is largely due to the Thief being able to choose which AOE they feel is correct for the current 4 initiative while the Necromancer is restricted by cooldowns.

Lastly, do please note that I’m trying to show facts and the pros and cons of both. I’m not trying to be biased … otherwise I would have looked at this and scrapped it.

Sebrent.3625:

randomfightfan.4091:

I agree the necro has more AOE burst since a Thief can’t cast clusterbomb as quickly as a necro can use Marks 2 through 5 on their staff. That is where their advantage is in this comparison.

However, what was discussed was “Necros get tons more bags in zerg fights” and “Necros have so much more AOE than Thieves”.

randomfightfan.4091:

4. This is all with the theory that you put forward, assuming that the thief isn’t using roll for ini or getting initiative return on crits. In a normal circumstance a thief would win if you were both in melee range and using nothing but marks and cluster bomb.

Are you suggesting you want to bring wells into this comparison? Those have some pretty long cooldowns as well and Thief can have caltrops and caltrops-on-dodge which are very good in large zerg fights given the low collective IQ of most zergs.

one thing I forgot to mention here is when necro is dropping their aoes from staff, once all those marks are out and on cd the necro then swaps to scepter dagger and sends out a few more aoes. After that they can initiative death shroud, instant casting an aoe around them, then press 4 for another aoe (that aoe can also aoe heal). After all that aoe is done they swap back out of death shroud, into s/d for using their aoe again then back to staff to use their aoe again. Now that everything is off cd (some will be back soon though), necro will just spam their line aoe staff.

While that whole rotation went, thief ran out of initiative somewhere in the middle. Poor guy, he left the fight until he was recharged again. All he had was caltrops (where he needed to be in melee range) and clusterbomb (that will likely miss if he’s not in melee range). Thief can’t swap weapons (to another sbow since we have no other aoe weapon) b/c out initiative will still be too low to do anything with it.

I had to post this, seemed funny to me :P

And about the unblockable marks part, I forgot to mention it was a trait but in the 1 trait it gives the massive marks and unblockable aspec. Seems very worth it to me.

I really don’t know why I’m posting this, I still maintain that necro and thief shouldn’t be compared.

It should be noted that the number of AOEs by the necromancer versus the thief could be more due to how detonating cluster bomb could affect this. That is, the Necromancer could possibly squeeze in an extra mark over time. However, I think given the 6s cooldown on the shortest cooldown mark, that would take 6 to 12 clusterbombs to take effect.

you do know that if there is a cluster bomb mid air the thief can’t cast another cluster bomb right? Before your argument is “just detonate it” realize that you’ll still have to wait 2-3s before detonating or else you won’t be able to touch a single enemy.

It should also be noted that time not spent AOEing is time spent using other skills.

What other skills for the thief? Auto attack? Uh… there isn’t anything else the thief would be able to do besides back away or move around.

It should also be noted that the thief can maintain a 100% up-time on poison with shortbow while a Necromancer cannot … this is largely due to the Thief being able to choose which AOE they feel is correct for the current 4 initiative while the Necromancer is restricted by cooldowns.

the thief poison aoe is junk unless all you’re trying to do is to put out some debuffs while remaining invisible. I has 0 other use than that. A power thief will use that poison field once in a blue moon as it’s just no where near close to worth it for the hefty initiative cost. It doesn’t even last long so I don’t know why anyone would use it except at choke points (even then cluster bomb would be prefered) were you have a ton of whirl finishers going around to spread the poison. Thing is in those situations, 99.99% of the time there will already be other fields on the ground, and if it’s a fire field, it’ll be doing more for the zerg then your wimpy poison field.

Also necro CAN maintain 100% poison. They have the massive poison aoe (that has other debufs to go with with, pretty sure you have something to do with poison on your traits, and poison on 3rd hit from scepter. Couple that with epidemic and you should be able to maintain 100% uptime on poison. Not as easy for necro but you’ll be doing a lot more with that then the thief could dream of doing.

its not worth arguing. just ask for a challenge on video and set up parameters what would invariable prove one or another right/wrong…….if you do this he will back out and u win the argument. sit there and chain cast AOES see who can last longer doing it (obv necro with what you said+utilities) ..this will be your control experiment. then challenge part 2 = stand at 800-850 range and each person gets to chain cast (taking turns) their aoes at the other person any way they can…. no invis no swarmings no minions etc….just see which is easier to get off. considering Cluster is 3-5 seconds….and marks are ground targeting and other aoes of necro are insta dmg in area (after cast time)…….. :P obv.

Travlane.5948:

its not worth arguing. just ask for a challenge on video and set up parameters what would invariable prove one or another right/wrong…….if you do this he will back out and u win the argument. sit there and chain cast AOES see who can last longer doing it (obv necro with what you said+utilities) ..this will be your control experiment. then challenge part 2 = stand at 800-850 range and each person gets to chain cast (taking turns) their aoes at the other person any way they can…. no invis no swarmings no minions etc….just see which is easier to get off. considering Cluster is 3-5 seconds….and marks are ground targeting and other aoes of necro are insta dmg in area (after cast time)…….. :P obv.

Travlane, which one of us has actually done real research and has a publication? (https://www.cerias.purdue.edu/assets/pdf/bibtex_archive/2011-23.pdf)

Now how many times do I have to tell you that it isn’t worth anyone’s time to take you up on your “challenges” due to the bias involved with the participants. It makes even less sense given the video evidence already out there. Lastly, it makes even less sense in this respect because I just showed that the necromancer will do more AOEs. However, you obviously didn’t read that post given what you just wrote implies you think I’m still arguing that the Thief does more/same.

Try to stick to facts and logic and focus on the actual topic instead of staring at me. I know Norn Rangers/Mesmers are pretty but it’s getting creepy :-p

@random

You are correct that clusterbomb can take longer to detonate. I think 3s is a bit much, but I’ll accept 2 in which case it does make quite a difference. Though a single video with a 3s air-time would change my mind in a heartbeat. Thankfully, while that’s in the air you can use the bouncing auto-attack. Not perfect, but it’s better than nothing and in many scenarios the bounce is better than the straight line (though “oh baby” at a checkpoint with piercing attacks)

I disagree about the poison being useless. First, GW2 has trained people to avoid red AOEs like the black plague. Second, it provides a nice combo field for your side to shoot through. Third, while poison isn’t the most damaging of conditions, it reduces healing by 33% which is not negligible.

However, if talking about just spamming AOES, would I spam poison? No.

One last point, let’s do please note that the math goes ahead and assumes clusterbomb will always be detonated which increases the initiative cost by 1. I believe necro will still win out due to the time in the air, but it is something to take note of.

Sebrent, not gonna quote your whole breakdown post to avoid a wall of text. Excellent work though. Just wanna point out, my comment was originally aimed at number of weapon skills used by thief vs any other class, i’ve not entered into this necro aoe discussion at all, nor do i intend to.

the necro example works just fine for the comparision to my point, except you didnt include weapon swap skills, which could a little less than double total skills used. This follows for any class vs thief, and as i stated before, is the cost of having a single resource pool vs having 8. its got upsides and downsides. but thieves cannot by any means use more skills than any class, which was my original point, and your wonderful breakdown shows nicely

just make trickshot track again i can live with cluster cd

Shemsu.8721:

Sebrent, not gonna quote your whole breakdown post to avoid a wall of text. Excellent work though. Just wanna point out, my comment was originally aimed at number of weapon skills used by thief vs any other class, i’ve not entered into this necro aoe discussion at all, nor do i intend to.

the necro example works just fine for the comparision to my point, except you didnt include weapon swap skills, which could a little less than double total skills used. This follows for any class vs thief, and as i stated before, is the cost of having a single resource pool vs having 8. its got upsides and downsides. but thieves cannot by any means use more skills than any class, which was my original point, and your wonderful breakdown shows nicely

Thanks, Shemsu.

While after doing it that way, I imagine a Thief with no traits/skills to gain initiative will be able to “spam” (for lack of a better word) non-auto-attack skills more than a Thief can, I don’t think that will really net them an advantage in combat.

However, I don’t think that “spamming” is going to lead to many (if any) advantages in combat given that good combat involves using the right skills at the right times.

I am actually a little jealous sometimes of the Thief’s ability to hit whatever they need when they need it as long as they properly manage their initiative. The only reason I haven’t finished leveling my thief to 80 (only pvp on him in sPvP) is because I level him with my wife’s thief and she HATES when I “leave her behind”.

I think the initiative system is nice in that it allows you to use the right tool for the job. I do wish, however, that it would greater incentivize that over spamming … but hey, it’ll get figured out one day and that’s a topic for another thread.

I think we agree on several things with minor differences … need to just figure out what those are and focus on trying to communicate them … sadly my “Brent to English Translator” (see: my wife) isn’t a forum-goer like myself. More sad that it’s my only language :-p

Too much nonsense talk!!! Especially from Sebrent who seems so much persistent to show how easily he gets nailed by thieves…. >.>

Anyways, if they add this item, they should remove the revealed debuff, because now people can “reveal” thieves pretty much anytime they like. Unless they have something against stealth, then they should remove it alltogether and maybe change the whole mechanics of a thief to compensate. -_-

Thief has plenty of defense it’s called dodge. You are blessed with so much that it can be done permanently. Use it. XD don’t worry about your stealth so much it hasn’t been removed.

Zelulose.8695:

Thief has plenty of defense it’s called dodge. You are blessed with so much that it can be done permanently. Use it. XD don’t worry about your stealth so much it hasn’t been removed.

You do realize that our plentiful dodges have been a QQ topic and will be the next thing to get nerfed after stealth.

Zacchary.6183:

You do realize that our plentiful dodges have been a QQ topic and will be the next thing to get nerfed after stealth.

The point is simple and easy.
Dodge and Stealth are two of the most effective defensive mechanic in GW2, mainly because you don’t need to stack toughness to be enough defensive, but you only need to spend some points in a specific traitline.

Now, Thieves have:
1. The highest single target damage among any profession
2. The best two defensive mechanics in the game
3. They can be both obtained in the same build

Which profession can do what a Thief can do? None.
The thief is a win-win profession. You can go full glass cannon and still have too much survivability. That’s why people are complaining.

If I go glass cannon on a Warrior, on a Necromancer, on a Guardian, or a Ranger, or any other profession who comes in my mind (except, maybe, Mesmer), I just die in few hits, which is what I deserve to play such an offensively imbalanced build.

Thieves dont have the highest single target dmg in game. although very close. mesmer is without a doubt number 1 right now. especially for burst. this can be proven in a video very easily.

Stealth is arguably the best defense mechanic in the game its also the most debilitating one. Invulnerability is the best IMO and blocking 2nd. many blocks/aegis in the game you can still do damage while in that “mode” …invulnerability is the best even tho it is only 3 seconds on average. in stealth u can still take damage…and usually as much as you give if not more in group settings. stealth is probably the best escape in the game without argue…..although moa skill 5 could be thrown in there although super rare.

I am going to drop one on a shadow refuge and just laugh.

Travlane.5948:

Thieves dont have the highest single target dmg in game. although very close. mesmer is without a doubt number 1 right now. especially for burst. this can be proven in a video very easily.

Stealth is arguably the best defense mechanic in the game its also the most debilitating one. Invulnerability is the best IMO and blocking 2nd. many blocks/aegis in the game you can still do damage while in that “mode” …invulnerability is the best even tho it is only 3 seconds on average. in stealth u can still take damage…and usually as much as you give if not more in group settings. stealth is probably the best escape in the game without argue…..although moa skill 5 could be thrown in there although super rare.

Well, I’ve said that the comparison should not stand with the Mesmer, which is another profession affected by this win-win class design. Every other profession, on the other hand, don’t benefit from this. How can be balance in this game, then?

I really don’t mind if Mesmer have the highest burst damage in the game, because if it were true, it wouldn’t makes my point less valid.

Stealth have easy access compared to Invulnerability and Blocking, this is the main difference. While you can have max 3s of invulnerability on an high cooldown (with a notable exception of Mesmers, see the coincidence!), with Stealth you can have 4s on demand with CnD, combo finishing in smoke field or with an utility.
Yes, Stealth doesn’t make you vulnerable, but it almost do it, since hitting an invisible target is only a matter of luck and guess. An half-brained Thief can easily make it invlunerability-like by avoiding enemies’ hit, which isn’t that hard.