Guild Wars 2

sorrow.2364:

Travlane.5948:

theif roamers are TOO strong? no…but they are very strong.

Fact 1 : Thieves are 10x stronger than necros in a “roaming” sense.
Fact 2: Necros are 10x weaker than thieves in a “roaming” sense.
Fact 3: Necros are 10x stronger than thieves in a “team/zerg” sense.
Fact 4: Thieves are 10x weaker than necros in a “team/zerg” sense.
Fact 5: Roaming doesnt matter on any level.
Fact 6: Team/Guild/Zerg play is the most important part of the game.
Fact 7: Only thief roaming builds are called “OP” even tho useless (other than fun)

wait wait wait wait lol… if you think roaming is important or 1 v 1 is important than go to general forums to complain about how your class is sub par in 1 v 1 but OP and AMAZING in zergs…..

You are acting just like a little child whose ice cream fell to the ground.

No, Necros aren’t 10x stronger then Thieves in Team/Zerg, also none here called Necro into the discussion. You did.

I play both Thief and Necro, so I can have a clear idea of both profession.

Thief has Dagger Storm, which, this skill only, puts Thief in a good spot in team/zerg fights.
Thief has the ability to quickly disengage a fight in case the odds are not on your favor. This capability alone, is worth any AoE mark/well Necro has. I just like how I rush into the enemy line, unload all my initiative on poor guys, then I just use Stealth + Withdraw to easily disengage the fight and leave it with absolutely no damage.

So, before saying that the introduction of anti-stealth trap is unfair or to say that Necro is 10x stronger than Thief in group fights, try them both.

Also, roaming isn’t worthless. Actually, in group fights, it is just a matter of numbers in most the cases. Being good at group fights is useless when the enemy zerg is 3x bigger.

SEBERT SAID: “Compare this to a poor necro, probably the worst class for roaming, and they can’t escape from anything except their own grandmother … and that’s only if they cripple her first :-p”

so yeah a necro was def brought up in converation :P reread above posts.
being good at group fights is useless when enemy zerg is 3x bigger? 100% correct hence me saying guild/zerg is most important and the specs for those are very few for thieves…. when i said group play it was more 8 v 8 for tpvp/spvp :P.

im not a sad kid with icecream dropped. no not at all. ive stated facts :P i mean cmon necro is WAY better than thief in zerg fights…imean SOOO much better. all his skills are AOE and affect alot of people with multiple condis…. and on a pulse at that. plus regular attack skills. now a thief only affects 1 target….other than his caltrops skills which is really good but only used in p/d bleed build. venom share is the best thing a thief can do in zerg play. simple. and stealth is the only defense a thief really has other than a few evades that are never used really (excluding endurance bc we all have that)

in a debate always bring examples or facts to the table and not say “awww spilt your milk” or "well you are wrong that thieves are worse than necros in zergs bc i say so " :P back it up. if u have that opinion thats fine thats great just bring something to the table to go with it. kind of bland :P

Grimwolf.7163:

Fungalfoot.7213:

I do feel for you thieves. It’s true that stealth is your only real defense but the fact of the matter is that it’s a very broken mechanic which should have never been implemented to begin with. Hopefully ArenaNet will take steps to make the thief less reliant on stealth and glass cannon builds.

There’s nothing at all wrong with Stealth; the problem is with the ability to use certain skills to stay in it for ridiculous lengths of time.
They just seem to enjoy breaking everything around the actual issue.

Just get it done with and remove Stealth stacking/refreshing, and give a couple seconds of Revealed any time it ends rather than four seconds on attack.

3 secs invised is not enough time to get off a bs againts a good player….its just not.

Necros are so kitten good in any group based role that as a Necro I can not complain about 1v1.

1v1 means nothing, in any of GW2’s game modes anyway.

PearlGore.7419:

Necros are so kitten good in any group based role that as a Necro I can not complain about 1v1.

1v1 means nothing, in any of GW2’s game modes anyway.

TY! i concur.

Travlane.5948:

SEBERT SAID: “Compare this to a poor necro, probably the worst class for roaming, and they can’t escape from anything except their own grandmother … and that’s only if they cripple her first :-p”

so yeah a necro was def brought up in converation :P reread above posts.
being good at group fights is useless when enemy zerg is 3x bigger? 100% correct hence me saying guild/zerg is most important and the specs for those are very few for thieves…. when i said group play it was more 8 v 8 for tpvp/spvp :P.

im not a sad kid with icecream dropped. no not at all. ive stated facts :P i mean cmon necro is WAY better than thief in zerg fights…imean SOOO much better. all his skills are AOE and affect alot of people with multiple condis…. and on a pulse at that. plus regular attack skills. now a thief only affects 1 target….other than his caltrops skills which is really good but only used in p/d bleed build. venom share is the best thing a thief can do in zerg play. simple. and stealth is the only defense a thief really has other than a few evades that are never used really (excluding endurance bc we all have that)

in a debate always bring examples or facts to the table and not say “awww spilt your milk” or "well you are wrong that thieves are worse than necros in zergs bc i say so " :P back it up. if u have that opinion thats fine thats great just bring something to the table to go with it. kind of bland :P

I’ve already said what I think about the matter.
Also, don’t misunderstand what Sebrent said. It is pretty obvious that he brought the Necromancer into the topic just as an example, for argument’s sake, not to incentivate a comparison between the two professions.

What I said in my previous post is that Thieves, in individual play, which is present in ANY form of PvP, starting from WvWvW to s/tPvP are the best, while being also quite capable in group fights. For instance, Thieves have a blast finisher on a 3 initiative cost, which is worth any mark/AoE/well/condition etc Necromancer has in terms of group fights.

There is a reason because people who plays Thieves are that much.

Good at roaming does not equal best at 1v1. Thieves are only good at roaming because they can escape fights and some times sneak past people.

Thieves are not the best 1v1 class I’m sorry to say.

sorrow.2364:

Travlane.5948:

SEBERT SAID: “Compare this to a poor necro, probably the worst class for roaming, and they can’t escape from anything except their own grandmother … and that’s only if they cripple her first :-p”

so yeah a necro was def brought up in converation :P reread above posts.
being good at group fights is useless when enemy zerg is 3x bigger? 100% correct hence me saying guild/zerg is most important and the specs for those are very few for thieves…. when i said group play it was more 8 v 8 for tpvp/spvp :P.

im not a sad kid with icecream dropped. no not at all. ive stated facts :P i mean cmon necro is WAY better than thief in zerg fights…imean SOOO much better. all his skills are AOE and affect alot of people with multiple condis…. and on a pulse at that. plus regular attack skills. now a thief only affects 1 target….other than his caltrops skills which is really good but only used in p/d bleed build. venom share is the best thing a thief can do in zerg play. simple. and stealth is the only defense a thief really has other than a few evades that are never used really (excluding endurance bc we all have that)

in a debate always bring examples or facts to the table and not say “awww spilt your milk” or "well you are wrong that thieves are worse than necros in zergs bc i say so " :P back it up. if u have that opinion thats fine thats great just bring something to the table to go with it. kind of bland :P

I’ve already said what I think about the matter.
Also, don’t misunderstand what Sebrent said. It is pretty obvious that he brought the Necromancer into the topic just as an example, for argument’s sake, not to incentivate a comparison between the two professions.

What I said in my previous post is that Thieves, in individual play, which is present in ANY form of PvP, starting from WvWvW to s/tPvP are the best, while being also quite capable in group fights. For instance, Thieves have a blast finisher on a 3 initiative cost, which is worth any mark/AoE/well/condition etc Necromancer has in terms of group fights.

There is a reason because people who plays Thieves are that much.

its usually 4 intiative as you get more total dmg with blowing it up before it lands. and he brought up an example on necros so i elaborated in a “different light” . i mean making necros look horrible is just a travesty. ive met great ones that were just sick 1 v 1 like gorath for example. and they are superb in a group as they spread dmg and conditions around. thieves cant do as much dmg as necros (collectively). if a thief hits 1 person for 1k a necro hits 5 for 600. not as strong in 1 v 1 but stronger in wvw/team play. hands down.

PearlGore.7419:

Thieves are not the best 1v1 class I’m sorry to say.

i think one of the top 2 or def 3. ill put my list(even tho off topic)

1 = mesmer
2/3 = ele/thief

I"m gonna go with Mesmer, the vast majority of players will be to confused by clones to kill you, the rest them can still be delt with very well on a Mesmer.

Travlane.5948:

PearlGore.7419:

Thieves are not the best 1v1 class I’m sorry to say.

i think one of the top 2 or def 3. ill put my list(even tho off topic)

1 = mesmer
2/3 = ele/thief

beastmaster ranger and many engis could also be interchangeable at the top. If thief is 25-30-0-0-15, has the element of surprise, and is full offensive utilities, the thief can blow up any of the 4 mentioned up top. In any other situation, they heal up and pick the thief apart (assuming both players are smart and of equal skill). After the resent nerfs and few buffs, I’d say thief is around 4th place for 1v1 class. Imo we should be higher but that just isn’t the case right now. Nerfing the duration of black powder by 1s would be a great way to balance the skill as removing the field would destroy the entire concept of the build entirely and increasing the ini cost on an already heft priced skill would also be overkill. Imo, cnd and backstab should be given small buffs as well (since we are supposed to be burst but we have at best 3rd highest burst).

Probably the best possible way to buff a thief though is to ignore the thief entirely and actually balance the bunker classes. They are just too strong right now. They should have to give up more damage to maintain the crazy tankiness that they have.

PearlGore.7419:

I"m gonna go with Mesmer, the vast majority of players will be to confused by clones to kill you, the rest them can still be delt with very well on a Mesmer.

Mesmer wouldn’t be so bad to deal with if killing the clones didn’t give such strong debuffs and condition pressure. It’s especially bad since almost any mesmer can put out 3 more clones near immediately after their original 3 (or 6 or 9) have been destroyed. Just not enough downtime sometimes for one to get their bearings.

randomfightfan.4091:

PearlGore.7419:

I"m gonna go with Mesmer, the vast majority of players will be to confused by clones to kill you, the rest them can still be delt with very well on a Mesmer.

Mesmer wouldn’t be so bad to deal with if killing the clones didn’t give such strong debuffs and condition pressure. It’s especially bad since almost any mesmer can put out 3 more clones near immediately after their original 3 (or 6 or 9) have been destroyed. Just not enough downtime sometimes for one to get their bearings.

very true and thief can only surprise a class with full burst attack if the class player is slow and not good. its easy to get out. cnd / bs miss more than 50% of the time so its a huge gamble…if d/d does go all out they literally go all out and if they kill the target or dont they have to get super lucky to stay alive if others are near by as they are now sitting ducks.

SoulDealer.5197:

Anti Stealth Traps?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nepysk5rOf4

^ THIS.

You see it in every profession forum. Whenever a counter(regardless of its strength) is implemented people rarely ever jump up and say “About kitten time. Finally something to spice things up.” Can you imagine how good it would feel to still beat somebody with an antistealth field? We also have no details on how these traps will function so it is way too early to be paniking.

And remember WvWvW is not balanced around 1v1s. Its about large scale tactical fights and right now A-Net is introducing more ways to perform said combat tactics. I’m sure in time more traps will be introduced so there really is no need to feel like this is thief only persecution.

The only thing anti stealth fields will promote is smarter gameplay and less cheese. So how about instead of moaning we either avoid dangerous situations like a smart assassin or outplay anti stealth opponents like a Dante must die hero.

From,
Somebody who likes to have a challenge.

balanced d/p thieves are top of 1v1 chart
as long as no limitation on stealth duration or frequency

there are builds can’t be killed, this was already settled. draws = 0 pts

randomfightfan.4091:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Travlane.5948:

thief stealth is one part yes. its also the only defense. nobody said it was the only facet of thief. but it is the only real defense we have.

0 blocks
0 invulnerability
0 protection
0 stability
2nd lowest Hp pool
squishiest class in game regardless of build

so stealth is the only defense. our healing…condition removal…blinds and attacks/get aways are all tied to it. its always been our only defense. well i guess you could say back when thief was op backstabbing for 20k….the best defense was a super strong offense. but after the nerfs we only have stealth. and yes it would be nice to have a choice between stealth and osmething else. seems the devs/ anet team is too busy nerfing rather than fixing :P

That’s not entirely true. We have access to Evade that is better than Block, and we have access to Blind that is better than Invulnerability. Our Dagger Storm deals damage, reflect projectile and stabilizes with 30s CD — in addition to stealth and shadow step.

So I have to disagree with everything you have said.

Vincent have you ever played thief? Every class has access to evade but it is true we do have better access. It is not better than block though as someone can block and still attack/be offensive whereas when someone is evading, they are dealing 0 dmg. Also, don’t forget, everyone has access to evade. It’s not a class mechanic. You also have to be active to be evading where which block, it’s usually just passive (mostly thinking about guardians here). Invulnerability is multiple hits where nothing can hurt you from any thing. Blinds only help you vs the few targets that might be affected while you’re still vulnerable to anything outside of the smoke field. Blind is also only 1 attack then it’s gone. You could have a 30s duration blind but after 1s it’s all gone. Dagger storm has a 90 second cd, not 30. The reflect is decent but it’s only a self reflect so it’s very selfish. At least with ele, they can give their self-reflect to the entire team, warrior self reflect also makes them basically invuln, engi self-reflect also has a knockback. The damage it does it pretty junk though. If you use it against a single target, you’ll be lucky to get 5 hits over the course of is entire duration. It’s really only good when you’re surrounded.

Also @ trav, thief has the lowest hp pool, not the 2nd lowest. Since all 3 light armor classes have good access to invulns and/or protection and 2/3 have higher hp pools, thief has the lowest defense in the game.

The only way to survive as long as other classes is to abuse evasion with the help of sigil or energy and a using all of our traits/utilities to spec for dodging. This can be a very strong troll build for surviving but you’ll be giving up a lot more than what most other classes need in order to survive just as well.

Do you play a thief? Don’t confuse “DODGE” with “EVADE”…and no…all classes DO NOT HAVE ACCESS TO IT. You can damage while evading…

I sense heavy bias against thieves here.

Benji.9203:

SoulDealer.5197:

Anti Stealth Traps?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nepysk5rOf4

^ THIS.

You see it in every profession forum. Whenever a counter(regardless of its strength) is implemented people rarely ever jump up and say “About kitten time. Finally something to spice things up.” Can you imagine how good it would feel to still beat somebody with an antistealth field? We also have no details on how these traps will function so it is way too early to be paniking.

And remember WvWvW is not balanced around 1v1s. Its about large scale tactical fights and right now A-Net is introducing more ways to perform said combat tactics. I’m sure in time more traps will be introduced so there really is no need to feel like this is thief only persecution.

The only thing anti stealth fields will promote is smarter gameplay and less cheese. So how about instead of moaning we either avoid dangerous situations like a smart assassin or outplay anti stealth opponents like a Dante must die hero.

From,
Somebody who likes to have a challenge.

the only stealth that a zerg uses is a veil from mesmers….if there is a problme with that skill then nerf/fix it. dont ruin thieves defense and offense in 1 shot. we have limited roles as is.

Travlane.5948:

Benji.9203:

SoulDealer.5197:

Anti Stealth Traps?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nepysk5rOf4

^ THIS.

You see it in every profession forum. Whenever a counter(regardless of its strength) is implemented people rarely ever jump up and say “About kitten time. Finally something to spice things up.” Can you imagine how good it would feel to still beat somebody with an antistealth field? We also have no details on how these traps will function so it is way too early to be paniking.

And remember WvWvW is not balanced around 1v1s. Its about large scale tactical fights and right now A-Net is introducing more ways to perform said combat tactics. I’m sure in time more traps will be introduced so there really is no need to feel like this is thief only persecution.

The only thing anti stealth fields will promote is smarter gameplay and less cheese. So how about instead of moaning we either avoid dangerous situations like a smart assassin or outplay anti stealth opponents like a Dante must die hero.

From,
Somebody who likes to have a challenge.

the only stealth that a zerg uses is a veil from mesmers….if there is a problme with that skill then nerf/fix it. dont ruin thieves defense and offense in 1 shot. we have limited roles as is.

1. class against playable characters seems like a pretty good role.

@ travlane: Each person you killed was 10 to 15 supply that did not get to a point it could have been used. Each one was also someone that could not bolster a zerg, identify a sneak attack by your server, harass your reinforcements, cap guards, dolyaks, and camps, etc.

I was highly amused to see you be a pistol dagger thief, though way to not just use 1 and 5 :-p I loved watching you shoot the other thief multiple times with sneak attack while they daggerstormed it back at you.

Anyone who thinks thieves are bad in organized group play is fooling themselves. When we do organized roaming, we have Rangers or Elementalists drop a water field in the middle of combat and thieves blast finisher in it to quickly heal up the group as he keep driving deeper into the enemy zerg we’re busting.

The thieves are also quite useful before fights when we’re might stacking (fire field) or swiftness stacking (lightning field from staff ele).

Thieves are quite versatile. I’d like to see them move more towards versatility and less troll-ish gankers with training wheels on top of training wheels.

Amun Ra.6435:

randomfightfan.4091:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Travlane.5948:

thief stealth is one part yes. its also the only defense. nobody said it was the only facet of thief. but it is the only real defense we have.

0 blocks
0 invulnerability
0 protection
0 stability
2nd lowest Hp pool
squishiest class in game regardless of build

so stealth is the only defense. our healing…condition removal…blinds and attacks/get aways are all tied to it. its always been our only defense. well i guess you could say back when thief was op backstabbing for 20k….the best defense was a super strong offense. but after the nerfs we only have stealth. and yes it would be nice to have a choice between stealth and osmething else. seems the devs/ anet team is too busy nerfing rather than fixing :P

That’s not entirely true. We have access to Evade that is better than Block, and we have access to Blind that is better than Invulnerability. Our Dagger Storm deals damage, reflect projectile and stabilizes with 30s CD — in addition to stealth and shadow step.

So I have to disagree with everything you have said.

Vincent have you ever played thief? Every class has access to evade but it is true we do have better access. It is not better than block though as someone can block and still attack/be offensive whereas when someone is evading, they are dealing 0 dmg. Also, don’t forget, everyone has access to evade. It’s not a class mechanic. You also have to be active to be evading where which block, it’s usually just passive (mostly thinking about guardians here). Invulnerability is multiple hits where nothing can hurt you from any thing. Blinds only help you vs the few targets that might be affected while you’re still vulnerable to anything outside of the smoke field. Blind is also only 1 attack then it’s gone. You could have a 30s duration blind but after 1s it’s all gone. Dagger storm has a 90 second cd, not 30. The reflect is decent but it’s only a self reflect so it’s very selfish. At least with ele, they can give their self-reflect to the entire team, warrior self reflect also makes them basically invuln, engi self-reflect also has a knockback. The damage it does it pretty junk though. If you use it against a single target, you’ll be lucky to get 5 hits over the course of is entire duration. It’s really only good when you’re surrounded.

Also @ trav, thief has the lowest hp pool, not the 2nd lowest. Since all 3 light armor classes have good access to invulns and/or protection and 2/3 have higher hp pools, thief has the lowest defense in the game.

The only way to survive as long as other classes is to abuse evasion with the help of sigil or energy and a using all of our traits/utilities to spec for dodging. This can be a very strong troll build for surviving but you’ll be giving up a lot more than what most other classes need in order to survive just as well.

Do you play a thief? Don’t confuse “DODGE” with “EVADE”…and no…all classes DO NOT HAVE ACCESS TO IT. You can damage while evading…

there are very few evade skills. all of which on attack for the 3 button( FS/DB/ and both shadow strike/shots) of these only FS is used in pvp. roll for initiative is nice but also 60 sec recharge(not getting much done in a big fight with this as its meant as a saving throw kind of skill).
next there is 2 things about evade skills is that each skill has an animation. there are 2 parts to each animation: the actual evade time and the animation time. for an evade to be effective the evade has to be longer than the residual animation time. lets take deathblossom as an example. Death blossom is a 1/4 second evade skill that has an animation time of around 1.15 seconds. this means you can only spam the skill basically once ever second. so out of the 1 second evade you only dodge 25% of it , and consequently the last 75% of the evade leaves you open to dmg. if it was 1/2 activate time like its supposed to be then it might be worth it. but for that 1/4 second you have to be absolutely perfect timing. many of the thieves evade skills are like this ….minus roll for intiative…that one is just darn good and hence the 60 sec CD. but with a 60 sec cooldown you cant really say that makes up for the lack of defense there of or qualify it as a reason to not count stealth as the only defense mech.

Sebrent.3625:

@ travlane: Each person you killed was 10 to 15 supply that did not get to a point it could have been used. Each one was also someone that could not bolster a zerg, identify a sneak attack by your server, harass your reinforcements, cap guards, dolyaks, and camps, etc.

I was highly amused to see you be a pistol dagger thief, though way to not just use 1 and 5 :-p I loved watching you shoot the other thief multiple times with sneak attack while they daggerstormed it back at you.

---

Anyone who thinks thieves are bad in organized group play is fooling themselves. When we do organized roaming, we have Rangers or Elementalists drop a water field in the middle of combat and thieves blast finisher in it to quickly heal up the group as he keep driving deeper into the enemy zerg we’re busting.

The thieves are also quite useful before fights when we’re might stacking (fire field) or swiftness stacking (lightning field from staff ele).

Thieves are quite versatile. I’d like to see them move more towards versatility and less troll-ish gankers with training wheels on top of training wheels.

u prolly didnt see my explanation of the vid from my other post but i have 1 hand right now as my left jsut got out of surgery from a body building incident. not much i could do hence me rolling 2 x and turning direction and invising to blow time . but anyway i still have yet to see any thieves with other builds in a VIDEO helping a zerg and not trolling outcasts or runners

They better implement it right. I want traps to act as siege that requires 5 supply to build with a large radius that is meant to be placed inside towers/keeps to prevent a thief from kittenoing in there. I do not want a pay 2 win against thieves deal where a rich guy can simply buy as many traps and he wants and spam them in battle just like Gears. If they did that 99% of thieves would probably quit the game.

Those two new traps seems more usefull than the 4 thief traps combined. It’s not that hard though.

Grimwolf.7163:

There’s nothing at all wrong with Stealth; the problem is with the ability to use certain skills to stay in it for ridiculous lengths of time.
They just seem to enjoy breaking everything around the actual issue.

Just get it done with and remove Stealth stacking/refreshing, and give a couple seconds of Revealed any time it ends rather than four seconds on attack.

I agree.

I’ve always been curious why they removed the ability of my Mesmer to run through Veil multiple times to stack stealth or run through Temporal Curtain multiple times to stack swiftness (or simply have it stack swiftness with other sources!) while Thieves are able to stack stealth in so many different ways.

Just another one of those inconsistencies in the game that irks me. It’d be nice, if nothing else, to get an explanation from the developers of why this inconsistency exists in their plans for the game and each class.

Size : 400 radius (same as swirling winds)
Cost: 25 supply
Effect: Remove Stealth on all characters withing area every 3 seconds for 3 minutes.

would something like this be ok? its enough so that one person cant do it and big enough so its not OP but also effective enough inside any tower and most “cappable” areas.

what do you guys think would be fair?

the only stackable stealth from the same skill is shadow refuge. if you use more than 1 skill anything will stack…..just not from the same one

Travlane.5948:

Size : 400 radius (same as swirling winds)
Cost: 25 supply
Effect: Remove Stealth on all characters withing area every 3 seconds for 3 minutes.

would something like this be ok? its enough so that one person cant do it and big enough so its not OP but also effective enough inside any tower and most “cappable” areas.

what do you guys think would be fair?

That sounds fair. It should not, whatsoever, ever, in any way, be a spammable consumable. It should have a CD that is long, or be a siege tool.

The trap should also activate whether or not a player is in stealth

or like maybe 3-5 per map or something? just as long as it takes more than 2 people to make i think it might be workable. i think the roamers are complainging about thieves and this fixes roaming…a little anyway. but you should never run solo anyway. even a thief should have a partner. solo runners are quite rare.

Travlane.5948:

the only stackable stealth from the same skill is shadow refuge. if you use more than 1 skill anything will stack…..just not from the same one

Never played D/P?
CnD chaining isn’t much better either.

no actually d/p is my 2nd fav matched with s/d as backup. p/d i use most bc of wvw being my main spot. and again shadow refuge is the ONLY skill that can stack multiple stealth duration

Travlane.5948:

no actually d/p is my 2nd fav matched with s/d as backup. p/d i use most bc of wvw being my main spot. and again shadow refuge is the ONLY skill that can stack multiple stealth duration

Doing it without using more than a single skill is irrelevant; the issue is that it can be done. And easily.

Travlane.5948:

no actually d/p is my 2nd fav matched with s/d as backup. p/d i use most bc of wvw being my main spot. and again shadow refuge is the ONLY skill that can stack multiple stealth duration

he meant to tell you d/p could stack stealth also, and more effectively since there’s no c/d.

I must say, thief tears are quite delicious.

None of us even know how this ability will be enacted in game, yet a vocal segment of thief players are claiming their class will no longer be viable.

d/p can stack stealth yes but he was saying that other single skills could do what shadow refuge can. d/p can do it “combining” two skills 1)black powder shot’s blind field 2)HS leap finisher. shadow refuge stacks stealth by itself. it stemmed from mesmers not being able to do what thieves do….but its bc of their mechanics….their skills arent made like thieves(SR). if a mesmer had 3-4 stealths on skill bar yes im sure it would stack.

really dissapointed. i just dont know how they are going to implement this ….best ccase its high in supply to use it…worst case its not supply at all. people QQ at roamers bc its all thieves really excell at. yeah they can contribute but not like other classes in zerg/guilds/8v8+ scenarios. this is going to make them stay away from larger groups even more…..blowing up their whole class mechanic :///

dunno what to say except it’ll increase your gameplay as a thief? That’s if you accept it, and learn the mechanism of it, and prevail.

Lets admit it though GW2’s got one of the best and op stealthing system ever. just sayin.

What did we do to deserve this?

I can always fall back on a different class but why only mention stealth traps (and anti supply traps)?

Assumibly there will be ones targeted towards other parts of proffessions such as mesmer clones and pets but wth.

Travlane.5948:

the only stackable stealth from the same skill is shadow refuge. if you use more than 1 skill anything will stack…..just not from the same one

That must be nice.

• If I have swiftness from any other source(s) and run through temporal curtain, it does nothing … even if I have only 1s left on swiftness.
• If I have stealth and run through veil, it does nothing … even if I have only 1s left on stealth.

Poxheart.2845:

I must say, thief tears are quite delicious.

None of us even know how this ability will be enacted in game, yet a vocal segment of thief players are claiming their class will no longer be viable.

Take a look at what happens any time Thieves think someone could even remotely affect them that isn’t an obvious buff.

WonderfulCT.6278:

What did we do to deserve this?

I can always fall back on a different class but why only mention stealth traps (and anti supply traps)?

Assumibly there will be ones targeted towards other parts of proffessions such as mesmer clones and pets but wth.

Why mention stealth and supply traps?

• Supply is a big part of WvW
• Stealth is a big part of good moves in WvW … watch the skilled, organized groups and you’ll notice them make use of refuge, veil, and/or mass invis in order to get the initial jump on their foe(s).

This brings me back to hunters in WoW who would /sit on their flares.

I’ll have to wait to see the implementation before I complain. This could very well just limit movement rather than be a sudden reveal.

However it is done, these traps cost something. Just think of it as a way we can make other players poorer. Let’s all roll troll builds and make videos of people wasting fields.

Morrar.1764:

Travlane.5948:

well lets put it this way. with multiple fields up by multiple players…..what defense will a thief then have? what role? this has to hurt their money as thieves wont spend money on a game they cant play/play well or at all :P idk

This is the real issue. A group of maybe 10 players can deny thieves access to areas by covering it with traps. The comparison to siege weapons above is irrelevant, cause thieves are also already hit by everything that hits non-stealthed players. This change specifically targets the thief’s main defense mechanism.

It seems more like another nerf to mesmers and veil/portal bombing. How often do you try to gank a group of 10+ solo? An item kit would be too time consuming for another player to drop if a solo roaming thief got the drop on him/her, and a thief running with a zergball can move around the field and flank in stealth or will spam trick shot/cluster bomb into the crowd.

Travlane.5948:

d/p can stack stealth yes but he was saying that other single skills could do what shadow refuge can. d/p can do it “combining” two skills 1)black powder shot’s blind field 2)HS leap finisher. shadow refuge stacks stealth by itself. it stemmed from mesmers not being able to do what thieves do….but its bc of their mechanics….their skills arent made like thieves(SR). if a mesmer had 3-4 stealths on skill bar yes im sure it would stack.

I absolutely did NOT.
I even clarified that it makes literally no difference whether you do it with one skill or two. D/P will have both those skills regardless.
Shadow Refuge’s Stealth component is completely trivial by comparison, anyway.

@seberent/grimwolf

im saying that SR is on a pulse and its the only skill that (by itself) stacks stealth. mesmer and thief stealths are 2 different kinds of stealth. if you stand in a blackpowder or w.e. and blast finish its a combo skill that can stack it. viels and ground targeting skills of the like wont stack…just like the ones that give swiftness. a mesmer cant create these fields like thieves and hence why they cant stack stealth. but that is purposeful and quite intentional as why would they allow a mesmer to stay invis as long as a thief when it has 20k hp on its strong builds and creates 4 clones / phants in a moments notice ….it would be crazy and you would never beat a mesmer.

Kajiri.8215:

This brings me back to hunters in WoW who would /sit on their flares.

I’ll have to wait to see the implementation before I complain. This could very well just limit movement rather than be a sudden reveal.

However it is done, these traps cost something. Just think of it as a way we can make other players poorer. Let’s all roll troll builds and make videos of people wasting fields.

Oh look. A reasonable, well thought out response. Look and learn, other thieves. Kajiri is even looking for the silver-lining in case it does somehow impact thieves more heavily.

@Travlane.
Go tell this to dagger pistol thieves who use their leap finisher to stack stealth.

As far as skills not stacking with themselves … how many of your other stealths skills can you even try to stack with theirself? You can’t because they are on cooldown and the stealth from them ends before they’re off cooldown. However, various stealth skills stack with each other. Why doesn’t my Mesmer veil stack with any form of stealth in the game?

It’s inconsistent.

^
It doesn’t stack duration but you can time it so you re-stealth before you break the stealth.

Travlane.5948:

its usually 4 intiative as you get more total dmg with blowing it up before it lands. and he brought up an example on necros so i elaborated in a “different light” . i mean making necros look horrible is just a travesty. ive met great ones that were just sick 1 v 1 like gorath for example. and they are superb in a group as they spread dmg and conditions around. thieves cant do as much dmg as necros (collectively). if a thief hits 1 person for 1k a necro hits 5 for 600. not as strong in 1 v 1 but stronger in wvw/team play. hands down.

Necros are nearly horrible. They have some skills with are hated to some professions, but excluding those cases, they are overall horrible. You just want to take a look to their traits to get an idea. People who plays Necro and are actually effective with it either are 10x better or they are playing the right counter to the build you are running. Anyway, we don’t want to talk about Necros here, right?

You don’t want to explode your cluster bomb, you won’t trigger the blast finisher. I sometimes like to run around with shortbow blast finishing in every field I see. You have no idea how useful I am. Unloading all my initiative in a Fire field means 15+ stacks of might on 5 people, which is an HUGE damage boost. Same applies to Water fields, light fields or smoke fields. Blast finishing into them is an huge support to your team and thief is the only profession capable to do so thanks to the initiative system. You are underrating this feature quite much.

To answer the resting part of your reasoning, I’ll just link you a video.
Keep in mind that most of the skill/traits used in this video did not get a nerf, so it can be still done today.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7OYniHrGqE

ok its 2 diff kinds of stealth…they even LOOK different when applied. any ground targeting skill are not made to be able to run into and out of or over and thru etc. shadow refuge is the only skill in the game that stacks stealth by itslef and that was my point. blinding powder….aoe fields to leap or blast finish giving aoe stealth…….hide in shadows….these are so different in effect to the mesmers stealth….thief clicks a button and just has it….a mesmer must set up.

Travlane.5948:

im not a sad kid with icecream dropped. no not at all. ive stated facts :P i mean cmon necro is WAY better than thief in zerg fights…imean SOOO much better. all his skills are AOE and affect alot of people with multiple condis…. and on a pulse at that. plus regular attack skills. now a thief only affects 1 target….other than his caltrops skills which is really good but only used in p/d bleed build. venom share is the best thing a thief can do in zerg play. simple. and stealth is the only defense a thief really has other than a few evades that are never used really (excluding endurance bc we all have that)

in a debate always bring examples or facts to the table and not say “awww spilt your milk” or "well you are wrong that thieves are worse than necros in zergs bc i say so " :P back it up. if u have that opinion thats fine thats great just bring something to the table to go with it. kind of bland :P

Unless you’re losing. If you enter into a fight with a necro you have two choices: 1) Win 2) Die. . .which sounds romantic to say it, but really a necro is pretty much a mobile goth engi turret.

“But necros have a second health bar”

Which means you get stabbed for 25-50% longer, but it doesn’t amount to anything (see: warrior) since you have no escape options. There’s no leap finishers or stealth to rely on, one skill that teleports you to a target and two that return you to your original location. Necros also have no access to vigor and stability (which thieves don’t either, but devs have stated an intention to make Necros a meaty, frontline-type profession) only through plague form (an elite transformation on a long cooldown) which ends when the skill does. Necros have more interesting aoe tricks to use, but in the thick of a zerg fight, it’s unlikely you’ll get to use them because cc’s are as rampant as anything else.

Thieves have access to: vigor, endurance discount, leaps, reticle-targeted teleports, and stealth. I understand spamming trick shot/cluster/poison into a crowd isn’t as glamorous, but it tags just as many bodies and in the event things go south, you have more to do than run away 25% faster and hope your 1-second fear on your 30-ish-second cooldown Reaper’s Mark will distract them long enough to waypoint. (Spoiler: it doesn’t)

A thief’s toughness line improves the thief’s passive ability to stealth which can buff, cleanse and heal as he/she escapes combat. The first passive creates a smoke bomb which blinds and stealths

A necro’s toughness line summons a dying minion and improves minion strength, but not necessarily the necro. For many specs, the first two major traits are spent on staff offensively. There aren’t a lot of options.

A thief’s vitality line also improves evasion, which gives an endurance discount and can be used to self-buff and escape cc condi’s.

A necro’s vitality line improves life drain, which can’t be used to disengage combat and can’t outheal zerg focus.

@sorrow….stopped watching the video at 3 mins bc it only chose upscales…. typical thief vid. but yeah i get ur point that said and put aside tho. yes a thief can stay on the outskirts…like ive been saying on several threads and pick off the weak sheep. idk just not a viable build for group play to me. 90% of the zerg was ignoring him as he was 3 hitting upscales …..happens to me too. soon as they turn their attention you have to high tail it out. thats why i like my other build (in my opinion) bc you dont have to.

datawais.7209:

Travlane.5948:

im not a sad kid with icecream dropped. no not at all. ive stated facts :P i mean cmon necro is WAY better than thief in zerg fights…imean SOOO much better. all his skills are AOE and affect alot of people with multiple condis…. and on a pulse at that. plus regular attack skills. now a thief only affects 1 target….other than his caltrops skills which is really good but only used in p/d bleed build. venom share is the best thing a thief can do in zerg play. simple. and stealth is the only defense a thief really has other than a few evades that are never used really (excluding endurance bc we all have that)

in a debate always bring examples or facts to the table and not say “awww spilt your milk” or "well you are wrong that thieves are worse than necros in zergs bc i say so " :P back it up. if u have that opinion thats fine thats great just bring something to the table to go with it. kind of bland :P

Unless you’re losing. If you enter into a fight with a necro you have two choices: 1) Win 2) Die. . .which sounds romantic to say it, but really a necro is pretty much a mobile goth engi turret.

“But necros have a second health bar”

Which means you get stabbed for 25-50% longer, but it doesn’t amount to anything (see: warrior) since you have no escape options. There’s no leap finishers or stealth to rely on, one skill that teleports you to a target and two that return you to your original location. Necros also have no access to vigor and stability (which thieves don’t either, but devs have stated an intention to make Necros a meaty, frontline-type profession) only through plague form (an elite transformation on a long cooldown) which ends when the skill does. Necros have more interesting aoe tricks to use, but in the thick of a zerg fight, it’s unlikely you’ll get to use them because cc’s are as rampant as anything else.

Thieves have access to: vigor, endurance discount, leaps, reticle-targeted teleports, and stealth. I understand spamming trick shot/cluster/poison into a crowd isn’t as glamorous, but it tags just as many bodies and in the event things go south, you have more to do than run away 25% faster and hope your 1-second fear on your 30-ish-second cooldown Reaper’s Mark will distract them long enough to waypoint. (Spoiler: it doesn’t)

A thief’s toughness line improves the thief’s passive ability to stealth which can buff, cleanse and heal as he/she escapes combat. The first passive creates a smoke bomb which blinds and stealths

A necro’s toughness line summons a dying minion and improves minion strength, but not necessarily the necro. For many specs, the first two major traits are spent on staff offensively. There aren’t a lot of options.

A thief’s vitality line also improves evasion, which gives an endurance discount and can be used to self-buff and escape cc condi’s.

A necro’s vitality line improves life drain, which can’t be used to disengage combat and can’t outheal zerg focus.

listen dont get it twisted im not saying necros are godly and thieves suck. they each have a niche. necros are much better in larger group settings and thieves in a smaller more settled/controlled setting. necros are mostly AOE kind of characters….thieves are usually 1 targeted kind of characters. aoe is less dmg but more control….and the opposite for thieves. they are both different classes but since 8v8 and 50 v 50 and 100 v 100 and 20 v 20 all have important roles in this game…it leaves somethign to be desired to say the least. but bc thieves are very good at duels and win more often than not doesnt mean they need to be nerfed. Its not like the can go pick on any character and boom insta death them and not be dying afterwards…..so thief is alot to be desired on the larger group/fight settings and peopl wanna nerf them in the smaller 1 v 1 setting bc they are very hard to deal with…which is true.