Guild Wars 2

and again, i’m murdering them not because of my playskill, but purely because of this classes broken mechanic.

Hop with the zerg? Of course not. Doesn’t mean I don’t need to deal with the enemy zerg in WvW. Someone has to stop them, and if you’re actively avoiding them in WvW, then you’re actively hurting your team.

And stealth is terrible for point defense in tPvP because the enemy can cap while you’re stealthed, meaning you’re not actually defending the point at all, and you should be playing a guardian, ele, or any literally any other class instead of a thief when holding a capture point.

Rottaran Owain.6789:

Wouldn’t matter how much healing you have. You’d be dead against many of them long before you could escape.

For example, well bombing necros, if you’re visable for more than half a second.

1)Deathshroud
2)AoE instant cast fear for one second
3) Leave deathshroud, and use Dark Pact to immobilize for 3 seconds
4) Well bomb.
5) You’re downed before you can move, and even if you could, you’ve got half a dozen conditions on you.

All it takes is for you to be visible long enough for the necro to press three (F1, tab, 3) buttons, and you’re toast. This means you can never attack out of stealth because of the revealed debuff, and thus your best chance of survival is running away.

This isn’t even going into what your build is actually useful for. In terms of tPvP, you’d be dead weight. Defending a point? Stealth is the last thing you want for that. Assaulting a point? Dragging out the battle with stealth regenerations is handing the opponents free points. WvW? Have fun dying to every warrior that doesn’t render in the enemy zerg.

Wow, looks like you have a deep knowledge about both Necro and Thieves.

Doom is an 1s fear, Dark Pact is an 1s casting time, so, assuming that Necro is that fast to not have any delay between the 2 skills, you are still able to stealth yourself.
Anyway any condition removal or shadowstep is an hard counter to the whole build.

Blinding Powder is instant and can be traited to remove one condition for every 3 seconds while stealthed, so 2 conditions removed in the whole Stealth time.
Steal is also instant and grants you a free 3s fear on the Necro which can be casted while in Stealth. Can be also traited to stealth you for 3 seconds.
Shadow Refuge is on a 1/4 casting time.

If you get caught and killed by a well Necro this means that either you have a bad build or you are completely bad.

if your avoiding the zerg, your doing WvW right. the zerg is not the army you need to worry about, it’s the small man groups taking all your supply camps/sentrypoints/killing your dolyaks, and choking your supplies. Those are the ones you need to worry about.

tPvP is not WvW.. in WvW stealth still is very much allowed to be used to cap objectives, and to hinder objectives from being capped.

you keep running with your zerg, that is the only way you see yourself effective and fine, with you and you zerg, you need not worry about getting killed by me and my fellow overpowered thieves.

testpig.5018:

if your avoiding the zerg, your doing WvW right. the zerg is not the army you need to worry about, it’s the small man groups taking all your supply camps/sentrypoints/killing your dolyaks, and choking your supplies. Those are the ones you need to worry about.

tPvP is not WvW.. in WvW stealth still is very much allowed to be used to cap objectives, and to hinder objectives from being capped.

you keep running with your zerg, that is the only way you see yourself effective and fine, with you and you zerg, you need not worry about getting killed by me and my fellow overpowered thieves.

I specifically said it’s useless for stopping capping in tPvP in my first post on the subject. WvW capping while stealthed is stupid, no one is arguing that.

And again, I never said I ran with a zerg. You don’t need a 20 some odd group to take out 20 under-geared, tunnel visioned players. Heck, you could probably kill them all by dropping in with maybe 5 thieves, and using dagger storm knowing how bad and undergeared they tend to be.

As for sorrow. Stealing fear doesn’t work when death shroud comes with stability and the typical well bomb has at least +10% condition duration from power. There’s also good ol’ master of terror trait that’ll make it 1.5 seconds.

Also note that there’s a 66% chance you’ll have at least one bleed on you from dark pact alone, let alone factoring in if the thief can’t react in time for the first well to hit, making your escape chances questionable at best.

testpig.5018:

stunbreakers are not necessary. Any damage i do sustain, i quickly heal back while in stealth.

That’s assuming you survive til the end of the stun or knockdown. You’re playing a build that’s super-soft to stuns and conditions (not damage, but Immobilize / Crippled / Chilled). In WvW especially, being stuck in one place means you’re going to be blasted down by focused fire — because you’re such an obvious target that even halfway decent players will take notice and throw damage your way.

Because of how the Revealed mechanic works, you really don’t get very much from running five stealth skills, as opposed to, say, CnD and one utility “panic button” for when you can’t connect with CnD.

as far as i see it is: High risk /high reward
why high risk ? ( you got shadow refuge )
because an full glass cannon will get eated in shadow refuge , will die by 3 normal atacks or 1 strong aoe
Because if your enemy will see you and do an dodge roll entire combo fail , and you got 2 choices ( try to run away or die)
you might meet ‘troll’ enemy’s with 3000 + defence on thief or ranger / elementarists/eng and they will eat u alive.
You got no chance from start against condition necro’s warriors and guardians
So as far as i see it , backstab build is overpowered against ( another glass cannons, low lvl enemy’s)

Rottaran Owain.6789:

As for sorrow. Stealing fear doesn’t work when death shroud comes with stability and the typical well bomb has at least +10% condition duration from power. There’s also good ol’ master of terror trait that’ll make it 1.5 seconds.

Also note that there’s a 66% chance you’ll have at least one bleed on you from dark pact alone, let alone factoring in if the thief can’t react in time for the first well to hit, making your escape chances questionable at best.

Death Shroud comes with 3 seconds stability with a master trait.
I don’t think it is that much of a problem, since Death Shroud is on a 10s recharge.

Anyway you still are in time to counter the whole combo with a single shadowstep or a single condition removal (which can fail on a 66% chance).
The whole combo, also, needs at least 3 seconds to deal enough damage to kill someone (~10k damage from wells ticks + ~4k coming from autoattack on a low toughness character) , which is more than enough to use your Hide in Shadows to remove both bleeding (skill effect) and Immobilized (trait).

You do realize that there’s also AoE blindness, and vulnerability from the wells to deal with, right? Have you even seen how these builds work? Heck, hide in shadow’s regeneration would turn into another condition.

Rottaran Owain.6789:

You do realize that there’s also AoE blindness, and vulnerability from the wells to deal with, right? Have you even seen how these builds work? Heck, hide in shadow’s regeneration would turn into another condition.

Who cares?
I main as a Necromancer and trust me, that build is half or a third as effective compared to any Thief build (excluding some).

You won’t use AoE blindess because it has no damage output at all and doesn’t help the burst. No one is going to use it during the well bomb.

Who cares that regeneration will turn into Poison? You escaped the burst and you are stealthed. All the wells are now on their 45s cooldown and you have all the time you need to kill your squishy enemy.

sorrow.2364:

Rottaran Owain.6789:

You do realize that there’s also AoE blindness, and vulnerability from the wells to deal with, right? Have you even seen how these builds work? Heck, hide in shadow’s regeneration would turn into another condition.

Who cares?
I main as a Necromancer and trust me, that build is half or a third as effective compared to any Thief build (excluding some).

You won’t use AoE blindess because it has no damage output at all and doesn’t help the burst. No one is going to use it during the well bomb.

Who cares that regeneration will turn into Poison? You escaped the burst and you are stealthed. All the wells are now on their 45s cooldown and you have all the time you need to kill your squishy enemy.

You have literally no idea what you’re talking about. The AoE blind is cause by blast finishers from putrid explosion inside the wells as part of the burst. You’re not giving up damage for the extra conditions at all.

The chances that you’ll escape the burst with this build are way too low to be considered a reliable counter. Period. If you brought roll for initiative instead of blinding powder, you could get out of this 100% of the time, which would be much more useful than another stealth skill overall.

Rottaran Owain.6789:

You have literally no idea what you’re talking about. The AoE blind is cause by blast finishers from putrid explosion inside the wells as part of the burst. You’re not giving up damage for the extra conditions at all.

The chances that you’ll escape the burst with this build are way too low to be considered a reliable counter. Period. If you brought roll for initiative instead of blinding powder, you could get out of this 100% of the time with roll for initiative, which would be much more useful than another stealth skill overall, giving more initiative, and better escape potential on the exact same cooldown.

I thought you talked about Well of Darkness, not the combo field + putrid explosion. Anyway that effect isn’t that much useful.

Still, you have great chances to escape the burst since it takes places in more than 3 seconds to deal decent damage. You are able to shadowstep, you are able to stealth, you are able to use also Roll for Initiative.

Again, try that build out, than come back here again and say to me how many people you succeded to kill with that build (sacrificing every utility) compared with the backstab combo.

sorrow.2364:

Rottaran Owain.6789:

You have literally no idea what you’re talking about. The AoE blind is cause by blast finishers from putrid explosion inside the wells as part of the burst. You’re not giving up damage for the extra conditions at all.

The chances that you’ll escape the burst with this build are way too low to be considered a reliable counter. Period. If you brought roll for initiative instead of blinding powder, you could get out of this 100% of the time with roll for initiative, which would be much more useful than another stealth skill overall, giving more initiative, and better escape potential on the exact same cooldown.

I thought you talked about Well of Darkness, not the combo field + putrid explosion. Anyway that effect isn’t that much useful.

Still, you have great chances to escape the burst since it takes places in more than 3 seconds to deal decent damage. You are able to shadowstep, you are able to stealth, you are able to use also Roll for Initiative.

Again, try that build out, than come back here again and say to me how many people you succeded to kill with that build (sacrificing every utility) compared with the backstab combo.

Do you even know what we were arguing about? Because I think you misunderstand the entire thing.

The entire thing was about why you still need a stunbreaker despite having a lot of stealth. Saying “he can use roll for initiative” is changing the build shown on the previous page, and basically proving my point.

It’s also clear that you’ve never actually used the build, because despite there being a topic about it on the first page of the necro forum, you don’t seem to know a thing about any of the abilities used in the build until I spell out exactly what they are despite it being very cookie cutter.

Rottaran Owain.6789:

Do you even know what we were arguing about? Because I think you misunderstand the entire thing.

The entire thing was about why you still need a stunbreaker despite having a lot of stealth. Saying “he can use roll for initiative” is changing the build shown on the previous page, and basically proving my point.

It’s also clear that you’ve never actually used the build, because despite there being a topic about it on the first page of the necro forum, you don’t seem to know a thing about any of the abilities used in the build until I spell out exactly what they are despite it being very cookie cutter.

I know that build and I’ve played it, there are obviously some variants, this isn’t Build Wars again. Since you talked about AoE blind, it was quite easy to misunderstand and think you was talking about Well of Darkness, so there is no reason you act that arrogant.

I came into the argument because you gave the wrong example, since bombing Necros can be easily countered without the need of a stunbreaker.

sorrow.2364:

Rottaran Owain.6789:

Do you even know what we were arguing about? Because I think you misunderstand the entire thing.

The entire thing was about why you still need a stunbreaker despite having a lot of stealth. Saying “he can use roll for initiative” is changing the build shown on the previous page, and basically proving my point.

It’s also clear that you’ve never actually used the build, because despite there being a topic about it on the first page of the necro forum, you don’t seem to know a thing about any of the abilities used in the build until I spell out exactly what they are despite it being very cookie cutter.

I know that build and I’ve played it, there are obviously some variants, this isn’t Build Wars again. Since you talked about AoE blind, it was quite easy to misunderstand and think you was talking about Well of Darkness, so there is no reason you act that arrogant.

I came into the argument because you gave the wrong example, since bombing Necros can be easily countered without the need of a stunbreaker.

Flesh Golem Charge.

Again, this is exactly what I’m talking about. While I probably should’ve gone into more detail initially, it’s not like this is some sort of unheard of build. It’s even one of the top viewed threads in the necromancer discussion forums.

Also, when you say you’ve used this build before, it implies that you know what exactly the build is that I’m talking about. If you don’t know what I’m talking about, ask. Don’t assume.

Rottaran Owain.6789:

Flesh Golem Charge.

Again, this is exactly what I’m talking about. While I probably should’ve gone into more detail initially, it’s not like this is some sort of unheard of build. It’s even one of the top viewed threads in the necromancer discussion forums.

Also, when you say you’ve used this build before, it implies that you know what exactly the build is that I’m talking about. If you don’t know what I’m talking about, ask. Don’t assume.

I know the build, of course, I’ve just understood that with AoE blind you was talking about WoD. AoE blind is pretty generical and it is open to any misunderstanding.

Well bombing build doesn’t came around in this early time, but they were posted in the Necro forum at least other 2-3 times ages ago.
Any Necro knows well bombing way before that topic came out as the only viable Power Necro spec.
I’ll say again, when you are talking about well bombing, you are not talking about a specific build, but about a build which relies on wells to deal damage. This isn’t the old Build Wars.

Also, if you actually played Necro, you should now that Charge is pretty unreliable because it is binded to the position of the golem in that specific moment and, since Minions don’t look to attack always your target and sometimes don’t attack at all, the knockdown can be delayed also for 1 second, giving you all the time you need to escape the spike.

Well bomb builds all tend to be extremely similar, mostly because the Necro as a whole has a lack of options overall. Well bombing basically requires both damaging wells to work, as well as CCs, so there isn’t a whole lot to switch around in terms of weapons and utilities.

Even as a thief, who people are complaining about being pigeon-holed. I rarely keep to certain utilities consistently. As a necro, not so much. It feels much more like utilities will either synergize perfectly with your build, or they’ll be next to useless with it.

I also know about the charge delay, but I’ve taught myself when to press early to a degree from past experiences playing a ranger. You can never get it perfect, but it works well enough for the job I find.

Kuroin.1703:

OP you have plenty of berserker gear, you are not tanky what so ever considering thieves are in the lowest bracket of health amounts together with guardians and elementalists.

Also testpig give me your build, 5 kinds of stealth and a glass cannon build?

That’s so funny. I have temple karma armor and Valk Emblazonized gear. The only berserker items I have is my weapons and accessories, which were emerald knight gear but I socketed them with exquisite rubies which in turn changed the prefix to Berserker’s.

I love how thieves make so many kittenumptions (I know not all thieves are in this boat). It’s like you’re just as biased on thief builds as the noobs who walk into WvW and get a 20k crit to their health because they have lvl 25 rares.

Insignia.3826:

Anyone else getting tired of these threads about over powered thiefs?

Yes, myself included -_-