Guild Wars 2

If people actually invested in toughness then backstabbing wouldn’t be a problem. I have about 1400 toughness as a thief and I usually just get hit at about 6-8k by a proper backstabbing spec thief. That gives me about atleast .25 seconds to dodge a heartseeker spam or atleast 2 seconds to dodge from another backstab attack, or atleast 1 second to log out immediately to prevent yourself from dying.(I only suggest doing this if there are no queues in WvWvW).

I just went into wvw so see formyself. I patiently waited with my glass cannon build in a middle of open field for a thief to backstab me.
And now I am kinda disappointed in a good chunk of community on forums

edit: excuse me, my proof was not visible on that screenshot here another one.

Explanation of situation: i was standing somewhere in eb, i was just testing how fast i can pop 4 signets for 20 stacks of might, when i noticed incoming thief (i had 5 stacks of might at that moment). He tried to cnd+steal on me but i was afraid i might get downed by that before getting hit with backstab so I stealed to him to prevent him from landing cnd on me. So my mug with 15 stacks of might and assasin signet hit him for 4.8k, his one hit me for 4.2k and he didnt use any signets. That makes us pretty even in stats. I though I might not get hit with backstab like this, but luckily for me he had shadow refuge. And he hit me (unmoving target with zero defense and no will to resist) for a whoooping 8k. Rounded up.

Ichishi.9613:

I just went into wvw so see formyself. I patiently waited with my glass cannon build in a middle of open field for a thief to backstab me.
And now I am kinda disappointed in a good chunk of community on forums

You have less then 1000 toughness, less then 11000 health and are clearly running a BS thief yourself…of course you’re going to take 8k damage from BS…you’re spec’d as a glass cannon.

Babel you miss the point. People claim to have 2k tough and be hit for more than I am
8k backstabs on glass cannon target do not bother me even a single bit. If i wanted he would never even had a chance to land one.

I was not demonstrating the opness of backstab, i demonstrated the contradiction that exists on this forum.
PS. I am not backstab thief I was simply wearing my unsigiled daggers to prevent accidental killing of my opponent with my uberguns and also to demonstrate the ostats that thief was most likely to have

Banzairush.4962 you are a horrible video gamer for quitting the game before another someone could get credit for the kill. How much of a poor loser are you. You should be ashamed of such actions.

Ichishi.9613:

Babel you miss the point. People claim to have 2k tough and be hit for more than I am
8k backstabs on glass cannon target do not bother me even a single bit. If i wanted he would never even had a chance to land one.

I was not demonstrating the opness of backstab, i demonstrated the contradiction that exists on this forum.
PS. I am not backstab thief I was simply wearing my unsigiled daggers to prevent accidental killing of my opponent with my uberguns and also to demonstrate the ostats that thief was most likely to have

Also i would like to add that i haven’t actually seen any evidence of what their stats really are through screenshots. All they have are just words, and words mean nothing without evidence.

you can hit 4.2k mug w/o any preparation with other stats?
i deliberately fixed my screen to provide comparision of my mug and his, with only uncertainty being i had 15 stacks of might upon encounter and he did not

Ichishi.9613:

Babel you miss the point. People claim to have 2k tough and be hit for more than I am
8k backstabs on glass cannon target do not bother me even a single bit. If i wanted he would never even had a chance to land one.

I was not demonstrating the opness of backstab, i demonstrated the contradiction that exists on this forum.
PS. I am not backstab thief I was simply wearing my unsigiled daggers to prevent accidental killing of my opponent with my uberguns and also to demonstrate the ostats that thief was most likely to have

Ahhhhhh I see what you did there :p What armor is that?

very bad looking flame legion armor because i don’t have gold for skins

It looks sexy, I may need to get some CoF armor…

-_- please don’t compliment these kind of armors too much or devs will continue to think that when everything looks like that it is ok

Ichishi.9613:

-_- please don’t compliment these kind of armors too much or devs will continue to think that when everything looks like that it is ok

Hahahaha, the helmet is a bit weird but I’d just hide it.

Although I play a thief as a main and use the backstab combo and love it, I can’t even for a second be mad at anet for balancing this. 3 insta hit skills to kill 75% of players is clearly to stong. I also agree with what ppl are saying tho, its not the fact that backstab hits for 8k, I think that is semi-reasonable, its just the fact that the steal cloak and backstab all synergize too well for that “non-skilled insta kill”. I hope you guys think up something fair to balance it and pray that its nothing to harsh to cloak as that will make other builds I use with dagger off hand that much less viable than it already is. Please take extreme caution with this nerf.

what happend after all the thief-nerfs?
thiefs with backstab-builds are now more glascanon than before. other thief-builds got more and more useless…

so now there is just one(and a half) way to play a thief!!!!! and that is the build because the thief got all that kittening stupid and brainless nerfs. pure ironic….

thief r.i.p.

@Judas.5432
“1. Thieves can do all those things. No. We can do great burst damage OR we can by hyper-mobile OR we can be invisible a lot OR we can be semi-good at all 3 with a well rounded build.”

Yes. You can do great burst AND by hyper-mobile AND be invisible at same build. How? Simple: full bers + shadow signet + initiative. Bingo.

“Also, invisibility is nowhere close to invulnerability. If you swing a sword and hit us, we take damage.”

The problem is… thief is invis, so you don’t know where he goes. Ouch. Moreover, you can’t use targeted skills on him.
Also, bugged rendering issue helps them a lot. 3 sec of revealed debuff they are still “invis”.

“I’ve never seen a single Thief stop us from capping a point effectively. Just swarm the area with traps and AoE and the Thief will leave or die.”
Enjoy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=j54bkD-3Nr0
;)
OFC this is completely different build, but he demonstrate the OP-nes of invis + initiative.

because of ppl are always complaining about the thief profession, and we always get nerfed without any really balance to other areas, i stopped playing gw2. do you guys feel better now that very few thieves do play (s)pvp? i hope you are satisfied and happy with yourselves. good fight!

It’s WoW rogues all over again, we’ll get nerfed to the ground thanks to a plethora of uninformed terrible players and be useless for many months but the skilled ones will still own and all will watch in envy, your tears are delish~

I played rogue for around 4 years on WoW. we where INSANE..do you remember when we could stunlock people to death? before diminishing return and preparation nerf?? oh man it was fun, pretty faceroll but fun for us.
You could take down anyone with this combo…i still remember the rotation…must have been something like.. premeditation, cheapshot, eviscerate, vanish, cheapshot 2xsinister strike, kidney shot, some sinister strike blind restealth cheapshot preparation and so on…

Sorry my sweet memory drove me away, but again it was awesome when we had the nerf because the community finally split in 2, terrible players FOTM defenders and ppl who could actually play the class…of course the majority of baddy cried a lot and moved to affliction warlock.

I am expecting an huge increase of Mesmer on GW2.

I think the only changes thief needs, is a big damage nerf to mug, and a small damage nerf to CnD, and in return upgrade some pistol (vital shot and body shot especially) and sword skills. That way the one overpowered build gets balanced and other builds that were too weak, get improved.

Zsymon.8457:

I think the only changes thief needs, is a big damage nerf to mug, and a small damage nerf to CnD, and in return upgrade some pistol (vital shot and body shot especially) and sword skills. That way the one overpowered build gets balanced and other builds that were too weak, get improved.

That seems at first like a good idea, but remember mug and CnD are not only used in backstab combo, by nerfing both you effectively make both P/D and S/D less powerfull which is why im mostly against a CnD nerf. They just have to be careful with this nerf because something like big damage nerf to mug will instantly remove that trait from ever being used again, aka 1 step closer to a trash can proffession that is unplayable. Honestly if I HAD to pick, I’d rather see backstab go then CnD. (Don’t get me wrong I play backstab because it is OP but I just pray they don’t accidental nerf thief as a whole in the process of this fix by doing something like nerfing skills that effect other builds, example: CnD and Mug nerfed to fix backstab = everything about thief suffers, except pistols which already suck.) Honestly I think an already decent nerf would just be to fix the part where you can CnD->Steal and not interrupt the CnD, at least this could slow down the incoming damage enough for ppl to have a small chance to react, forcing the cast time of CnD to actualy be present

Which btw please buff swords and pistols, particularly S/D #3 which is literally worthless, maybe a complete revamp for this skill?

TLDR; Don’t fix backstab by ruining all the skills that are used in other builds. Just fix the problem.. backstab

I’m not so sure all the other thief specs ARE underpowered. BS is such an obvious choice it is bound to make all other builds seem weak. I’d be interested in seeing how people started specing and performing once BS is not such a no-brainer.

Shredicus.8706:

NightyNight.1823:

A back stab thief is the easiest of them all to counter and beat.If you have problems against them you don’t stand a chance against the others.

If it’s such a bad spec then why is there such an outpour of anguish over it being nerfed?

Because the class has been nerfed every single patch, and not everyone wants to make a condition build thief.

The spike and conditions when need to preq a backstab are fine

-Backstab (Have to be in stealth, and have to be behind the player)
-Upon doing the backstab your revealed for 3 seconds and can not go back to stealth

Seems fine to me

Whats not OK is C&D/MUG/STEAL/BASILISK Combo. When performing this combo this is what happens:

-You teleport to the player from 900range instantly (This is the strongest of all the things that happen in this combo and is vital to making it instagib)
-You steal an ability
-You gain 3 initive (usually) refilling the ini lost when casting C&D which then allows another 10% damage for having above 6 ini when traited
-You gain stealth for 3 secs
-You usually Crit with both MUG and C&D getting them below 50% health so Executioner applies another 20% damage
-MUG does good damage (To good for a 10 point trait)
-C&D does good damage on crit
-If MUG and C&D do both crit in that second upon landing, it does more damage than the backstab
-The player is immobilised for 1.5 secs instantly

This takes 1.5 sec to achieve setting you up for a super massive backstab

Fix the combo casting mechanic and you balance the thief without nerfing anything

Its clear that the strength to this build is the combo setup and not the backstab itself

-Webley: Played Backstab thief long enough to give you good information on it

Thief is fine.

It’s just the usual suspects here, spewing the same garbage over n over. They won’t be happy until the thief is useless.

In all my hours played in WvW, I’ve only ever been killed by the Basilisk/C&D/Steal/BS once… ONCE!!! Only because I was typing when the thief attacked.

Usually when these glass cannons try this on me, they end up dead or fleeing.

I don’t even know why I bother posting here anymore to be honest, this sub forum should just be called the whingers corner. The complainers never listen to good advice and continue begging for nerfs. The developers eventually cave, the class gets weaker and people call it quits cause they’ve had enough. Then the complainers move onto the next ability they can’t deal with and the cycle continues.

Poor form.

@ LOCO
I began to think I am the only one right in the head ..either that or seriously detached from reality.

@LOCO
not only is it the usual suspects but most those suspects are guardians and warriors that don’t think they can facestomp us enough as it is.

i play the thief kitten well

C&D/MUG is the issue. In some instances it takes 50% health. Thats insane. Thats before the backstab! Im sure Backstab was meant to be bursty, but C&D+MUG was not meant to be more powerfull/on par with it!

However, Trappy Regen Rangers are the new META. They are the ones to watch for 1v1’s

Mesmers MOA is still silly

The game is far from polished.

LOCO.1785:

Thief is fine.

It’s just the usual suspects here, spewing the same garbage over n over. They won’t be happy until the thief is useless.

In all my hours played in WvW, I’ve only ever been killed by the Basilisk/C&D/Steal/BS once… ONCE!!! Only because I was typing when the thief attacked.

Usually when these glass cannons try this on me, they end up dead or fleeing.

I don’t even know why I bother posting here anymore to be honest, this sub forum should just be called the whingers corner. The complainers never listen to good advice and continue begging for nerfs. The developers eventually cave, the class gets weaker and people call it quits cause they’ve had enough. Then the complainers move onto the next ability they can’t deal with and the cycle continues.

Poor form.

Pretty much this. I had a decent post a few pages back on certain ways of countering this silly one trick pony build and even explained some details as to how stealth / revealed works proving that the combo isn’t done from “out of no where” and can be prepared for with a little awareness and what happened?

Someone (named Awe) posts about how they shouldn’t have to play a bunker (which i never even mentioned in my post but he assumed it) and they shouldn’t have carry a stun breaker or invulnerability.

I pretty much gave him advice on how to counter / what to do against something he was complaining about and he pretty much threw it in my face. Practically saying that he shouldn’t have to change the way he plays because someone beat him. In essence, he wanted to keep playing the same way expecting a different result.

People don’t want to change their build/adapt to something they have trouble with. Instead, they want to come on here and kitten so the Anet will nerf and they can go on doing the same thing and not have to adapt because that’s too hard for the typical baddie that plays this game.

^Well said. Just hope ANet doesn’t succumb to the QQ like so many before them.

If you feel that burst theifs do not need a nerf then you are a bad thief and will not be able to handle the patch on the 15th… Burst Steal+bs thief is kitten OP atm.. And i play one.

TheZeus.8617:

If you feel that burst theifs do not need a nerf then you are a bad thief and will not be able to handle the patch on the 15th… Burst Steal+bs thief is kitten OP atm.. And i play one.

you must be new here, if u read the rest of the thread, you would know that your argument is “been there, done that” and that its been shot down.

Maybe no nerfs are necessary at all, like I said in the other thread, maybe the rendering bug should be fixed before the profession gets nerfed, and see if it is still necessary then. If there is a bug that makes a profession too strong, then I think it makes more sense to fix the bug before nerfing the profession.

Though causing mug/steal to interrupt casting skills, might solve some problems too. That gives players a lot more time to react once mug hits, due to CnD’s long cast time. That way a player just has to dodge away or use a defensive or control skill to stop the whole combo from ever happening.

Maybe make it so when you have mug traited, steal interrupts casting skills. As far as I can tell, that would solve the whole problem.

Zsymon.8457:

Maybe no nerfs are necessary at all, like I said in the other thread, maybe the rendering bug should be fixed before the profession gets nerfed, and see if it is still necessary then. If there is a bug that makes a profession too strong, then I think it makes more sense to fix the bug before nerfing the profession.

Though causing mug/steal to interrupt casting skills, might solve some problems too. That gives players a lot more time to react once mug hits, due to CnD’s long cast time. That way a player just has to dodge away or use a defensive or control skill to stop the whole combo from ever happening.

Maybe make it so when you have mug traited, steal interrupts casting skills. As far as I can tell, that would solve the whole problem.

Its pointless trying to smash this fact into their thick skulls. They’ve already proven beyond a doubt that they don’t want the game to be balanced. They’re just interested in thieves being smooshed into the ground. Otherwise they would’ve agreed with any of the 1000s of reasonable fixes that are floating around instead of pushing them aside. Even if they fix the rendering issue, bads will be bads and they will NEVER stop whining.

The CnD+Steal combo needs a fix. The backstab damage itself is fine imo.

Jefzor.7145:

The CnD+Steal combo needs a fix. The backstab damage itself is fine imo.

Any suggestion how to fix it?
Also, even other professions are using this type of mechanic (Lightning flash + Churning earth for example).

Try to hit with those skills without the “blink”, you´ll see that it is kinda impossible if your opponent is not a training dummy

@STRanger, it’s impossible to be fixed. They’d have to nerf every class with a teleport, just as you said, or else it wouldn’t be fair. If they did fix it, Cloak and Dagger would have to be buffed. If you’re even off on the timing at all, a moving target can dodge CnD without even realizing they’re doing nit.

I feel that Mug does in fact hit way too hard for its point cost – 10 points for an instant teleport skill to hit as hard as Cloak and Dagger just doesn’t seem fair. A 25% damage reduction would be warranted, imo. When I first saw it, I honestly thought it was supposed to just be used for using Poisons when you steal. I never even used it until I was hit by it and saw that it actually dealt great damage.

Asking them to fix this would be like asking them to fix CC because warriors are actually landing Hundred Blades. It just makes it possible to land an annoying skill.

MarkedOne.1309:

Thief that can do this kind of damage is fully glass cannon specced. Should they want to kill people fast, it goes: basilisk>(assassnins signet)>cloak and dagger>steal>backstab. This works pretty well against majority people. However, however. Most players just wait till they get approached by a thief, then they will probably lose (reactions-skill). This is the majority people. Majority people = casual players aka players that are not very good. These players go on this forums and call for nerfs.
On the different side – there are about 10-20% people that are aware of how their class or any class for that matter should be played. So they don’t wait, they pop cd’s, or easily they only dodge. If a thief does this combo, he has cooldowns on all major skills and is left with almost 1/2 of his initiative. What now? The thief will most likely die.
People from the top teams know that thieves are fine as they are. Those are the people that are good. They play other classes and have no problem to counter them 1v1 and kill them.

If there are any nerfs to thieves, i want mesmers nerfed, portals, moa need to be nerfed or adjusted. Warrior 100b and their constant dps is also bad. Necromancers are pain, can kill anything, plague needs to go. Then you need to nerf guardians+elementalists, their bunker specs are too strong to be in game.

As a thief (one of professions i play) i am having a blast when I am able to kill rank5 elementalist in about 2 seconds. I am pretty sure he will be mad and probably will go to the forums. On the opposite side, when I meet a rank 30 elementalist, or just one that knows what he is doing, I have absolutely NO chance to kill them. Backstab is just useless in this situation. These players dont go to the forums but rather play and kill more thieves on their own.

There might be needed quite a few adjustments made in regards of ALL classes, not only thief.

I don’t really like to say these type of things again and again either ingame or on forums, so thats all from me.

Indeed. That’s exactly what I wanted to say!

@Krathalos.3461:

Yes, I know. I didn´t meant that post to defend the Thiefs´ burst, but ppl should suggest something, instead just saying “it has to be fixed”, right?

poping 2×4k+ dmg from mesmers is not op, no sir, NO …
and warriors ? … NO, they are fine with 5k++ dmg in 1 hit …

@LOCO

OR hit V when you see the thief doing something(add CnD animation here) and you now have a disabled thief that you can play with and kill within few seconds.

Thief is a class that can blend it and cause confusion, I sometimes go inside a group full of people that are attacking a keep in WvW and down a player so that I can confuse them or force them to stop what they are doing. It’s a strategic class.

But ofcourse people in here still look it as 1vs1 which is their biggest mistake.

do not bother telling them to dodge BEFORE it lands. To them, thief is obviously permastealthed when he gets in range of steal and has an instant cast basilisk venom.

I remember few months ago before the heartseeker nerf people getting killed by me and my class and they didn’t even dodge a thing. After they cried about it and people told them what to do(for example dodge or use their healing ability right away).

Things have changed a lot since then, I haven’t found an opponent that does not dodge anymore which actually made it quite more difficult to perform a burst dps build. Now they know how to dodge but they probably do not know when to do it, cause they are average players.

What will happen if there is a significant nerf coming out is that skilled thief players won’t even be able to kill average players, with that build which will hurt balance even more.

Put a skilled glass canon thief against a skilled player of any other class and the thief will lose pretty sure about that because it happened to me. I wish duelling was available to easily prove that through a video.

I still do not consider myself really good. Heck, I am a clicker. I dodge 95% of time with double tap. I CLICK my stun breakers.
And usual damage breakdown when forced in combat with a backstabber: 4-5k steal, 1-2x 3.5k dancing daggers. After that they are dead or already running very far away.
Even with steal, CnD is almost impossible to land on a proper target. And heck, its melee ability that means your opponent will have every single one of his melee abilities available to him too. In spvp people pop out of stuns/immobile almost without a visible delay, move abruptly, turn around all of the time, hug the walls/cliffs with their backs, stand on friendly aoes.
Are we in a same game?

The nerf.
You guys know its coming. The good players will adapt while the bads will reroll to the next fotm.
Hopefully thieves will have to work for their damage same as (almost) everyone else.

@Kaleygh
Last i checked, positioning for backstab required work as long as the target doesn’t start acting like a mob and stands there scratching his head when he can’t see the thief but obviously took dmg.

FrozenLuv.6017:

@Kaleygh
Last i checked, positioning for backstab required work as long as the target doesn’t start acting like a mob and stands there scratching his head when he can’t see the thief but obviously took dmg.

The difficulty level must be insanely high. I can only imagine the stress and the tension you guys must endure.
/sarcasm off

Kaleygh.1524:

FrozenLuv.6017:

@Kaleygh
Last i checked, positioning for backstab required work as long as the target doesn’t start acting like a mob and stands there scratching his head when he can’t see the thief but obviously took dmg.

The difficulty level must be insanely high. I can only imagine the stress and the tension you guys must endure.
/sarcasm off

Oh, actually its pretty easy right now because people either don’t dodge or dodge too late. Or in some cases stand still in semi-afk mode. Thank you for your concern though, much appreciated.

Here are some facts.

I have 40k damage burst on my Warrior (evidence below), while having twice the health, lots more armor and invulnerabilities.

But I like the Thief more than my Warrior because I need to actually look at what I’m doing or die.
I need to position correctly to hit the back.
I need to manage revealed.
I need to stealth timely.
I need to manage stealth bugs (not a feature ok, but still requires management).
I need to aim and time Cluster correctly if I’m ranged.
I need to stealth teammates at the right time.
I need to throw slow DD correctly on runners to not miss.
I need to land the short-ranged CnD or get mauled.
I need to manage initiative, etc.
To be a good thief you need to be dedicated to all those things I mentioned, and more.
Regardless of what people say, Thief requires a nice degree of skill to be good with.

On my Warrior…
I deal 22k damage to all people in a line in 2-3 seconds from 1200 range.
I deal 20k AoE damage in 1.5s while also knocking the target down during the whole.
This while having twice my Thief’s health, a lot more armor, 8 sec invul.
The “hardest” thing I need to do is calling out CDs/dodges so they can’t avoid these burst combos.
And should I die (after Endure Pain, Defy pain and 20k health have been fully depleted), I knockdown the enemy right before he finishes me, vengeance back up before he finishes me again, gib him and live again.
I have permaswiftness (better than 25%, doesn’t take an utility slot), I have permafury.
It isn’t nearly as hard and enjoyable as playing a Thief.

I stopped playing my Thief due to all the hate and the fact it will be nerfed unnecessarily to shut complainers, while Warrior will not.
November 15th for me will be the day I see if Anet is great at balancing and tweak things basing on evidence and math, or going the Blizzard way and nerf-on-complaint to shut complainers.

PS: The damage in the combat log is dealt with a yellow rifle.
I didn’t even bother on the exotic as the damage is super high with this 10 silver skritt shinie, I’d feel bad to be even more OP.

Except no warrior will ever use a rifle in spvp because it is so useless and easily avoided.

When you use kill shot, the big damage dealer, you crouch down so everyone can see you’re doing a kill shot, and need more than a second to charge, giving people all the time in the world to dodge the kill shot you just needed almost a minute charging adrenaline for.

I don’t see the point. Warrior rifle only has any use to pick off squishies in wvw if no one focuses you. I don’t think there is much comparison between thief power and rifle warrior power in s/tpvp.

Against a rifle warrior, having two dodges is enough to completely negate their damage done to you. You dodge once for kill shot, if they miss it will take ages before they can do another one, and you dodge once for volley, which will negate over half of its damage. The auto attack is negligable because it does pitiful damage with an attack rate of one second.

Dodging kill shot and volley are the easiest things in the world, and you have absolutely no way to force an opponent to dodge before using those two skills, since those two skills are the only damage dealers you have.

That’s why no warrior uses a rifle in s/tpvp, it’s just not useful for fighting any kind of even moderately skilled player, there is no logical way to compare a rifle warrior with a thief, thieves are vastly superior in damage, utility and survivability.

I’m not saying thieves are overpowered, I don’t know if they still will be overpowered when rendering gets fixed, but you can’t compare a thief to a rifle warrior.

Zsymon.8457:

Warrior rifle only has any use to pick off squishies in wvw if no one focuses you. I don’t think there is much comparison between thief power and rifle warrior power in s/tpvp.

dude, how you can lie so much ???

I’m not lying, rifle warrior is simply not viable for s/tpvp, period. No one who pays a bit of attention will ever get hit by kill shot or by a full volley, there are no skills that are easier to dodge than those two. You see a rifle user crouch, you wait a second, and you dodge, they will never hit, and they have no way to force you to waste your dodges.