Guild Wars 2

Hartayke.7349:

What I find most ridiculous about threads like this is the “omg kids whine and classes get nerfed durpa durp!”.

Are you kittening serious? You think devs sit at their desk and monitor your forums waiting for “QQ” threads and decide their game balance accordingly?

Get real. These things are in large part decided on vast amounts of statistics. In this case, they see exactly how often BS is used, how much it is doing, how many kills occur because of it, how many thieves use it, if the opponent was able to react, how it compares to other class abilities, etc etc ad nauseum.

All the “whining” threads and all the “my class is fine here’s why” responses mean nothing and in all likelihood are not even read in the first place. You can argue until your face is blue in either direction, it is worthless against pure numbers.

It is almost alarming how self important people are to think any differently, or that the subjective material they post matters at all with respect to game balance.

If you are nerfed, it is because the numbers said your class is OP. If you are not, guess what? Their statistics decided that, not “kids” whining on forums or lack of white knight defenders responding to them.

“With all due respect, that’s a bunch of malarky”

The posts/whining bring dev attention to those particular aspects, the nerfs wouldn’t be happening if people were not complaining about them.

So the root cause IS the complaints.

STRanger.5120:

Devildoc.6721:

STRanger.5120:

Devildoc.6721:

It’s not even close, 1s would just prevent all the damage from happening at once but still allow you to spam the same skill successive times.

If you want this game to be the same as the other ones (SW:TOR, WoW etc.), why bother, just go and play them.
I play GW because I want class diversity and difference, that´s the biggest pro of this game, you know?

I’m looking at it like this.

The class is going to continually get nerfed, every single patch, as it has been since launch.

There is blood in the water. Arenanet has been giving people the nerfs they want, so people keep asking for them, because they know they’ll get them.

I would rather have a short GCD, than an across the board damage nerf again. A short GCD would prevent all the damage in a spike from happening at once that really only has place in very specific PVP builds but allow thieves who aren’t doing that once a minute instagank build to still be strong.

If they nerf the base damage of backstab, C&D, or mug, realize that it will affect far more than just that once a minute instagank thief in pvp. In fact it’ll affect thieves who use bs WITHOUT using those instagank builds more than it will the instagank builds. It will also impact your actual damage far more than the patch notes say. Pistol whip’s base damage was nerfed by 15%. When you factor scaling with power and weapon damage into it, it was more like 27%, when you factor crit damage into it, it was more like a 40% loss. No joke overnight I went from 10k pistolwhips to 6k. But as people said.. people were still using haste and 2 pistol whips in pvp.. because the nerf hit the wrong target, not the damage output, but the fact that you can haste and land 2 pistol whips in a row in a very short frame of time, the impact on thieves who used the skill in PVE, without haste, was far greater.

I don’t want that happening to backstab thieves. Normal backstab thieves aren’t hitting for 18k. They’re hitting for about 8k, tops, usually more like 5k-6.5k.

I don’t think we have a “no nerfs” option.

At this point our best bet is to try and pick our poison and hope for the best.

I just have to think if there was a short GCD that prevented people from pistol whipping twice while in haste.. would I still be standing there autoattacking as my best source of damage today?

I see your point, and from certain point of view, you´re right. But there´s also the other fact, why should Thieves have GCD and other classes don´t? That sound weird to me, actually.

It is weird, but I’m just saying I’d rather see it than a flat out damage nerf, or worse, complete overhaul of the thief to remove the initiative system and put them on cooldowns.

I’d rather see a 0.5-1s weapon skill GCD that prevents mug+C&D+bs all going off at once than see C&D on a 45s cooldown.

Mind you, our utilities would need to be able to ignore this GCD, so it wouldn’t really be a GCD, just a CD across weapon skills.

Even 0.5s would disrupt the instant gank build, while leaving every other use of the skills viable.

Hartayke.7349:

What I find most ridiculous about threads like this is the “omg kids whine and classes get nerfed durpa durp!”.

Are you kittening serious? You think devs sit at their desk and monitor your forums waiting for “QQ” threads and decide their game balance accordingly?

Get real. These things are in large part decided on vast amounts of statistics. In this case, they see exactly how often BS is used, how much it is doing, how many kills occur because of it, how many thieves use it, if the opponent was able to react, how it compares to other class abilities, etc etc ad nauseum.

All the “whining” threads and all the “my class is fine here’s why” responses mean nothing and in all likelihood are not even read in the first place. You can argue until your face is blue in either direction, it is worthless against pure numbers.

It is almost alarming how self important people are to think any differently, or that the subjective material they post matters at all with respect to game balance.

If you are nerfed, it is because the numbers said your class is OP. If you are not, guess what? Their statistics decided that, not lack of “kids” whining on forums or white knight defenders responding to them.

Previous experience, such as the Pistol Whip nerf, seem to indicate otherwise. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, and whoever can cry the loudest gets the attention and validation they so desire.

Devildoc.6721:

It is weird, but I’m just saying I’d rather see it than a flat out damage nerf, or worse, complete overhaul of the thief to remove the initiative system and put them on cooldowns.

I’d rather see a 0.5-1s weapon skill GCD that prevents mug+C&D+bs all going off at once than see C&D on a 45s cooldown.

Mind you, our utilities would need to be able to ignore this GCD, so it wouldn’t really be a GCD, just a CD across weapon skills.

Even 0.5s would disrupt the instant gank build, while leaving every other use of the skills viable.

Like I wrote yesterday, ppl will start to use infiltration signet instead of Steal to fasten their combo, so whiners will be still whining about the fast blink+C&D combo and backstab (because positioning for it takes some time = GCD won´t be as much problem there….)

Devildoc.6721:

Hartayke.7349:

What I find most ridiculous about threads like this is the “omg kids whine and classes get nerfed durpa durp!”.

Are you kittening serious? You think devs sit at their desk and monitor your forums waiting for “QQ” threads and decide their game balance accordingly?

Get real. These things are in large part decided on vast amounts of statistics. In this case, they see exactly how often BS is used, how much it is doing, how many kills occur because of it, how many thieves use it, if the opponent was able to react, how it compares to other class abilities, etc etc ad nauseum.

All the “whining” threads and all the “my class is fine here’s why” responses mean nothing and in all likelihood are not even read in the first place. You can argue until your face is blue in either direction, it is worthless against pure numbers.

It is almost alarming how self important people are to think any differently, or that the subjective material they post matters at all with respect to game balance.

If you are nerfed, it is because the numbers said your class is OP. If you are not, guess what? Their statistics decided that, not “kids” whining on forums or lack of white knight defenders responding to them.

“With all due respect, that’s a bunch of malarky”

The posts/whining bring dev attention to those particular aspects, the nerfs wouldn’t be happening if people were not complaining about them.

So the root cause IS the complaints.

What you are saying is not the same thing I am saying.

You say, and it is possible assuming no one at ANET has ever been killed by the class/ability in question or it never occurred during internal testing, is that whine posts being dev attention to an ability.

I will concede that as possible.

However, that does not cause nerfs. If that happens, it is simply causing them to look at it. It is once again their data that would result in adjustment.

If the class/skill in question is not OP, you have nothing to worry about.

Right?

STRanger.5120:

Devildoc.6721:

It is weird, but I’m just saying I’d rather see it than a flat out damage nerf, or worse, complete overhaul of the thief to remove the initiative system and put them on cooldowns.

I’d rather see a 0.5-1s weapon skill GCD that prevents mug+C&D+bs all going off at once than see C&D on a 45s cooldown.

Mind you, our utilities would need to be able to ignore this GCD, so it wouldn’t really be a GCD, just a CD across weapon skills.

Even 0.5s would disrupt the instant gank build, while leaving every other use of the skills viable.

Like I wrote yesterday, ppl will start to use infiltration signet instead of Steal to fasten their combo, so whiners will be still whining about the fast blink+C&D combo and backstab (because positioning for it takes some time = GCD won´t be as much problem there….)

If they do that they lose a good 3.5k damage off their combo, so you see, it works out to some degree that way too.

bwillb.2165:

Previous experience, such as the Pistol Whip nerf, seem to indicate otherwise. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, and whoever can cry the loudest gets the attention and validation they so desire.

I hear you, I do not understand where some nerfs come from personally, and devs in these games often do not explain them.

However, as an antithesis, I submit to you the necromancer and its community. There are more posts and threads there from the people that play the class begging for bug fixes/changes than there are whine posts in any given class forum.

Still next to nothing has changed, and certainly not a significantly larger amount than the other classes.

Devildoc.6721:

If they do that they lose a good 3.5k damage off their combo, so you see, it works out to some degree that way too.

Yes, but they can do the Steal after the backstab and make some now hardly usable/unusable traits for this combo of use For example: “Kleptomaniac” “Hidden Thief”

Hartayke.7349:

Devildoc.6721:

Hartayke.7349:

What I find most ridiculous about threads like this is the “omg kids whine and classes get nerfed durpa durp!”.

Are you kittening serious? You think devs sit at their desk and monitor your forums waiting for “QQ” threads and decide their game balance accordingly?

Get real. These things are in large part decided on vast amounts of statistics. In this case, they see exactly how often BS is used, how much it is doing, how many kills occur because of it, how many thieves use it, if the opponent was able to react, how it compares to other class abilities, etc etc ad nauseum.

All the “whining” threads and all the “my class is fine here’s why” responses mean nothing and in all likelihood are not even read in the first place. You can argue until your face is blue in either direction, it is worthless against pure numbers.

It is almost alarming how self important people are to think any differently, or that the subjective material they post matters at all with respect to game balance.

If you are nerfed, it is because the numbers said your class is OP. If you are not, guess what? Their statistics decided that, not “kids” whining on forums or lack of white knight defenders responding to them.

“With all due respect, that’s a bunch of malarky”

The posts/whining bring dev attention to those particular aspects, the nerfs wouldn’t be happening if people were not complaining about them.

So the root cause IS the complaints.

What you are saying is not the same thing I am saying.

You say, and it is possible assuming no one at ANET has ever been killed by the class/ability in question or it never occurred during internal testing, is that whine posts being dev attention to an ability.

I will concede that as possible.

However, that does not cause nerfs. If that happens, it is simply causing them to look at it. It is once again their data that would result in adjustment.

If the class/skill in question is not OP, you have nothing to worry about.

Right?

It’s not the class or skill itself that is OP, it never is. it’s not like they plan these skills haphazardly and say “look, for backstab let’s have it do ridiculous damage!”

What ends up being OP, is player creativity. They are able to piece together an entire build that between traits, utility skill usage, and gear, is able to do way more than what the developers intended. If you do a bs without being in that ideal build, with the ideal skill sequence to get all the multiplying damage bonuses and might stacks from traits, you’ll land it for about 5k (and this is in glass cannon gear). But a player who’s aligning all those utility skills, traits, etc, is doing 15k+.

So backstab itself is not OP, it’s a combination of gear, traits, and utility skills.

But because that 1 skill is the skill that benefitted from all these stacking bonuses from traits, the outcry is that that 1 skill or class is OP, and that skill gets nerfed.

Now the people who DON’T use all those specific traits and utility skills in the exact sequence (which is all around a once a minute occurance btw), will do 2.5-3.5k with their backstab, making it an awfully underpowered skill for them.. and those who still use that once a minute instagank build, will do 10k.

See it affects people who don’t use the build more than people who do use it.

Just like pistolwhip

Pistolwhip itself was not OP.

Pistolwhip without haste was easy to avoid

Add in haste, and being able to do it twice in a row in about 1 second.. then it’s OP.

They nerfed pistolwhip’s base damage.

Pistolwhip without haste is now about as useful as teats on a bull outside of trying to melee enemies that can’t be blinded.

Pistolwhip with haste still does a lot of damage because you do it twice in a row and get 1s of stun in about 3s total time.

Hartayke.7349:

bwillb.2165:

Previous experience, such as the Pistol Whip nerf, seem to indicate otherwise. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, and whoever can cry the loudest gets the attention and validation they so desire.

I hear you, I do not understand where some nerfs come from personally, and devs in these games often do not explain them.

However, as an antithesis, I submit to you the necromancer and its community. There are more posts and threads there from the people that play the class begging for bug fixes/changes than there are whine posts in any given class forum.

Still next to nothing has changed, and certainly not a significantly larger amount than the other classes.

Devs are MUCH more inclined to nerf when there’s community whining about something than to buff or fix. We have tons of bugs, warriors have tons of bugs, etc, nerfs roll out every patch, bug fixes stagnate for months.

See here’s the thing.. if a class has something broken about it, people will complain and eventually give up, or make another class, then anet doesn’t have to hear about it anymore so they figure problem solved.

It’s like with GW1 smiter’s boon. It got nerfed to the point where it was effectively removed from play. Anet claimed that they would find a better solution for it to balance it for PVP. That was 4 years ago. It’s still effectively removed from play, because nobody uses it, and people gave up on it ever being fixed.

Meanwhile if something has the forums up in arms as being “OP” people don’t just give up and play another class.

So they nerf it to quell those people.

I honestly don’t care too much about backstab because I don’t use it. However, If the Thief gets any more nerfs without some form of buff in another area to offset the loss, then why bother even playing the game?

i am more inclined that the devs are nerfing based on number of whine threads and posts, than on actual statistics, which makes me sad …
did you know that pistol whip is now as useless as auto attack ??? (without haste ofc)

DanH.5879:

i am more inclined that the devs are nerfing based on number of whine threads and posts, than on actual statistics, which makes me sad …
did you know that pistol whip is now as useless as auto attack ???

I was one of the first people to crunch the numbers on it after the 15% nerf and found that it was only slightly better than auto attack. I’m sick of it. It’s never going to stop either.

Once these oxygen thieves are finished complaining about backstab, they will move onto Clusterbomb, then Dancing Dagger, ,Dagger Storm, then Mug, then Cloak and Dagger, then Caltrops, then Unload, then they will find something else to kitten about, when all the damage abilities have been reduced to rubble, they will undoubtedly complain about Signet of Shadows, Venom Sharing, or some other rare ability that we manage to work into a build when we have nothing left.

I’m gonna say yeah, the developers are nerfing based off complaints. Does anyone else not realize that Mesmer is easily the most overpowered class in this game, yet there are no complaints about it? I mean really, they not only have the most utility in the game (and one skill that outclasses any other class’s skill in terms of utility on a 90 second CD), but they also have amazing condition damage builds (ones based off Confusion, mind you, which is the best condition in the game) and burst builds.

One class is actually OP, while another isn’t, yet the one that isn’t is complained about and subsequently nerfed. How can anyone say it is something other than a skill issue? Good players don’t have a single issue with thief being a good burster. That’s seriously all they have. They can’t build an effective bunker build. They can’t build an effective support build. Their condition builds are worse than pretty much any other class’s.

If you nerf a thief’s burst, you effectively remove them from the game. A thief is good at singling out targets when they burst. This is the only benefit they have over other burst classes. They don’t have AoE burst. They have to use utility or elite skills to effectively gain CC, because D/D has literally none. It’s a raw damage build, and that raw damage isn’t even that far above other classes when those other classes can do other things better while still being able to burst.

Point proven: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9o0LJor-HQ

SKuDDer.1860:

Point proven: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9o0LJor-HQ

There’s also a video floating about of a grenade Engineer instantly killing people at 1200 range (I’m sure someone has the link to it, I don’t feel like finding it). Point not proven.

Typical, brush it off on something else with no proof to back it up? You thieves keep saying show proof, but yet you show none in return. I just showed you a video of a current thief (who’s not all that good) easily rolling people, sometimes multiple in WvWvW.

I like the response though. Its like saying, well mesmers can push one button and kill the whole server instantly, there is a video out there somewhere.

@nightynight, hardly any of them I see in the video have greens arrows, but good try derailing it.

SKuDDer.1860:

Typical, brush it off on something else with no proof to back it up? You thieves keep saying show proof, but yet you show none in return. I just showed you a video of a current thief (who’s not all that good) easily rolling people, sometimes multiple in WvWvW.

I like the response though. Its like saying, well mesmers can push one button and kill the whole server instantly, there is a video out there somewhere.

@nightynight, hardly any of them I see in the video have greens arrows, but good try derailing it.

The problem with these videos is simple, they are cutted, edited etc… Everybody is capable of getting such kills in WvW (where undergeared ppl are not that rare). If somebody wants to decide whether Thief is OP or not bassed on WvW, so he should show WvW, not some random killing of roamers (you know, WvW is not about that…), Or you can show a decent sPvP/tPvP video where everybody has equal equipped characters and where some skillful players are present. Thanks

SKuDDer.1860:

Typical, brush it off on something else with no proof to back it up? You thieves keep saying show proof, but yet you show none in return. I just showed you a video of a current thief (who’s not all that good) easily rolling people, sometimes multiple in WvWvW.

I like the response though. Its like saying, well mesmers can push one button and kill the whole server instantly, there is a video out there somewhere.

@nightynight, hardly any of them I see in the video have greens arrows, but good try derailing it.

Except the Engineer video is a well-known video. The fact that you haven’t seen it makes me think the first time you came to these forums was to complain that you died to a thief.

I also like how you claim the thief isn’t good. You’re just amazing at this game and the only time you die is to OP thieves, right?

Remember: WvW videos are awful when you’re trying to prove a point. You can do an 8 hour run in WvW on any class and pick out parts in which you owned someone in order to make said class seem overpowered.

Krathalos.3461:

I’m gonna say yeah, the developers are nerfing based off complaints. Does anyone else not realize that Mesmer is easily the most overpowered class in this game, yet there are no complaints about it? I mean really, they not only have the most utility in the game (and one skill that outclasses any other class’s skill in terms of utility on a 90 second CD), but they also have amazing condition damage builds (ones based off Confusion, mind you, which is the best condition in the game) and burst builds.

One class is actually OP, while another isn’t, yet the one that isn’t is complained about and subsequently nerfed. How can anyone say it is something other than a skill issue? Good players don’t have a single issue with thief being a good burster. That’s seriously all they have. They can’t build an effective bunker build. They can’t build an effective support build. Their condition builds are worse than pretty much any other class’s.

Whoa whoa whoa there brother, the Mesmer forums do indeed get plenty of complaints. Especially about Moa morph.

The thief forum definitely has the most of the class forums I visit though: Necro, Mesmer, Guardian and Thief. Not sure about the rest.

SKuDDer.1860:

Point proven: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9o0LJor-HQ

I wish my thief could hit for this, sadly I live in the real world where I can’t go full berserkers build

Just looked at the Mesmer forums, and unless the threads are titled different than their contents, there isn’t a single OP complaint on the first page. This means it’s not an active topic, and henceforth not even discussed for any length of time.

Also, yes, bumping this thread is probably a bad idea if they only read the complaints by people rather than the rebuttals. I still find it kinda funny how they told people to work on a counter before complaining OP, but apparently they don’t agree with that anymore.

Someone complains, developer replies with “We’re working on a nerf, don’t worry” rather than, “Have you tried to counter it at all?”

Thief is easily countered. This is why it can’t be considered OP by anyone with a brain.

Why do Thieves stun?

They instakill targets in WvW. Seems like stun is a waste of an elite.

SKuDDer.1860:

Typical, brush it off on something else with no proof to back it up? You thieves keep saying show proof, but yet you show none in return. I just showed you a video of a current thief (who’s not all that good) easily rolling people, sometimes multiple in WvWvW.

I like the response though. Its like saying, well mesmers can push one button and kill the whole server instantly, there is a video out there somewhere.

@nightynight, hardly any of them I see in the video have greens arrows, but good try derailing it.

WvW should NEVER be used as evidence for something being in balance or not. WvW is not INTENDED to be balanced. People who are low level may get scaled to 80, but they are NOT on an even playing field with level 80 players in exotics. Not to mention orbs.

Zzzz.

It’s obvious to tell whether a person is scaled or not.

There are a few things that are inherently “wrong” with WvW (Berserker PvE and other PvE gear stat distributions compared to sPvP stats come to mind).

There’s no expectation that WvW should be perfectly balanced or finely-tuned.

However, the current situation is that Thieves can instakill almost any target in the game at range at the start of any fight with almost no telegraph. The culling and stealth is just salt in the wound since they can get away from 20 players after stomping their target.

I think that all the ppl who thinks that Backstab is that much OP it needs nerf should try Dark Souls – there you will see how backstab works and I can grant you that if you want to finish that game, you will really learn how to avoid it…
You are all lucky that Anet didn´t based backstab on reality, because that attack would simply ignore any armor (there are uncovered spots in the plate armor you know? And ppl which can be named “assasins” or “thiefs” for purpose of this game were bloody good at hitting these spots…)

Anyway, any balancing seems irrelevant to me, because bugfixes are top priority, without them the game simply can´t be balanced….

Devildoc.6721:

SKuDDer.1860:

Typical, brush it off on something else with no proof to back it up? You thieves keep saying show proof, but yet you show none in return. I just showed you a video of a current thief (who’s not all that good) easily rolling people, sometimes multiple in WvWvW.

I like the response though. Its like saying, well mesmers can push one button and kill the whole server instantly, there is a video out there somewhere.

@nightynight, hardly any of them I see in the video have greens arrows, but good try derailing it.

WvW should NEVER be used as evidence for something being in balance or not. WvW is not INTENDED to be balanced. People who are low level may get scaled to 80, but they are NOT on an even playing field with level 80 players in exotics. Not to mention orbs.

Yes but someone who is lvl 80, fully geared is an equal comparison, and FYI, orbs have been out of the game for almost a week now. It is no different then when people in PvP get things nerfed for other professions which have a greater or different impact on WvWvW and PvE.

This is the same pattern I see with everyone complaining about thief, or really any profession.

Player A builds themselves glass cannon. Player B is also built glass cannon and manages to burst them down.

Player A has predetermined that they are the only one in the universe allowed to go high risk/high reward and demands that Player B’s profession/build be nerfed into uselessness.

And if backstab did any less damage, it would be useless.

Learn to dodge roll, learn to anticipate sneak attacks, learn about stun breaks, learn to build with some actual health, and most importantly learn to fight different classes differently. You’re not supposed to be able to flowchart every fight the same way.

Krathalos.3461:

Just looked at the Mesmer forums, and unless the threads are titled different than their contents, there isn’t a single OP complaint on the first page. This means it’s not an active topic, and henceforth not even discussed for any length of time.

Also, yes, bumping this thread is probably a bad idea if they only read the complaints by people rather than the rebuttals. I still find it kinda funny how they told people to work on a counter before complaining OP, but apparently they don’t agree with that anymore.

Someone complains, developer replies with “We’re working on a nerf, don’t worry” rather than, “Have you tried to counter it at all?”

Thief is easily countered. This is why it can’t be considered OP by anyone with a brain.

There is typically at least one thread on the front page that ends up large like this one, which is the only one I see on the FP here. Actually, most threads on the FP here about nerfing at all are by thieves, 3:1 at a glance.

The last one like this for Mesmers is on p3 at the moment, again at a glance.

Another point though: the dev seems to have posted that they were ALREADY looking at this, meaning this thread has nothing to do with it.

SKuDDer.1860:

Devildoc.6721:

SKuDDer.1860:

Typical, brush it off on something else with no proof to back it up? You thieves keep saying show proof, but yet you show none in return. I just showed you a video of a current thief (who’s not all that good) easily rolling people, sometimes multiple in WvWvW.

I like the response though. Its like saying, well mesmers can push one button and kill the whole server instantly, there is a video out there somewhere.

@nightynight, hardly any of them I see in the video have greens arrows, but good try derailing it.

WvW should NEVER be used as evidence for something being in balance or not. WvW is not INTENDED to be balanced. People who are low level may get scaled to 80, but they are NOT on an even playing field with level 80 players in exotics. Not to mention orbs.

Yes but someone who is lvl 80, fully geared is an equal comparison, and FYI, orbs have been out of the game for almost a week now. It is no different then when people in PvP get things nerfed for other professions which have a greater or different impact on WvWvW and PvE.

Videos of people doing ridiculous damage in WvW are not against actual level 80’s in good gear, they’re always against scaled up low levels in garbage.

SFtheWolf.5179:

This is the same pattern I see with everyone complaining about thief, or really any profession.

Player A builds themselves glass cannon. Player B is also built glass cannon and manages to burst them down.

Player A has predetermined that they are the only one in the universe allowed to go high risk/high reward and demands that Player B’s profession/build be nerfed into uselessness.

And if backstab did any less damage, it would be useless.

Learn to dodge roll, learn to anticipate sneak attacks, learn about stun breaks, learn to build with some actual health, and most importantly learn to fight different classes differently. You’re not supposed to be able to flowchart every fight the same way.

1. Glass cannon does not exist in guardian. There is only hybrid builds that are roughly 50% defensively specced with some kind of damage. There is no burst with guardian.
2. How does one learn to dodge roll what one cannot see? Thief steals 900 range or uses shortbow teleport / CND in that time, you do not render them in WvWvW. They position behind you, it takes all of .01s to side step once, backstab… dead or close to death.

The thing that is the problem, is say the thief doesn’t kill the target and realizes they aren’t going to win, they just CND, and run away easily. There is no draw back to this high burst build. Glass cannon usually means you die when you don’t win, this is not the case at all with thieves. But its fine, keep justifying the High damage, low risk.

Krathalos.3461:

SKuDDer.1860:

Typical, brush it off on something else with no proof to back it up? You thieves keep saying show proof, but yet you show none in return. I just showed you a video of a current thief (who’s not all that good) easily rolling people, sometimes multiple in WvWvW.

I like the response though. Its like saying, well mesmers can push one button and kill the whole server instantly, there is a video out there somewhere.

@nightynight, hardly any of them I see in the video have greens arrows, but good try derailing it.

Except the Engineer video is a well-known video. The fact that you haven’t seen it makes me think the first time you came to these forums was to complain that you died to a thief.

I also like how you claim the thief isn’t good. You’re just amazing at this game and the only time you die is to OP thieves, right?

Remember: WvW videos are awful when you’re trying to prove a point. You can do an 8 hour run in WvW on any class and pick out parts in which you owned someone in order to make said class seem overpowered.

I assume you are talking about the videos that were from beta/september which are impossible to do anymore. Same as the thief used to be in sPvP with the signet.

On a side note, google engineer burst damage, search you tube videos, sort by views, and what are the top videos? Thief burst backstab videos lol.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=videos&search_query=gw2+engineer+burst+damage&search_sort=video_view_count

SKuDDer.1860:

1. Glass cannon does not exist in guardian. There is only hybrid builds that are roughly 50% defensively specced with some kind of damage. There is no burst with guardian.

All the more reason it’s asinine how so many guardians complain that thieves do more damage than them.

The guardian(s) in question built with ridiculously little health, so they’re glass regardless of if they’re cannon.

SKuDDer.1860:

1. How does one learn to dodge roll what one cannot see? Thief steals 900 range or uses shortbow teleport / CND in that time, you do not render them in WvWvW. They position behind you, it takes all of .01s to side step once, backstab… dead or close to death.

You dodge roll by anticipating when they’re near you. Everyone has attack patterns and they can be observed and used against them. It’s easy to notice an enemy thief telegraphing their moves in subtle ways over the course of a single PvP match. Maybe it’s just because I play fighting games, but that doesn’t make the point any less valid.

The render bug is a bug and will be fixed. It’s not appropriate as a long term balance argument.

This is aside from the fact that there is such a wealth of counters in this game which are designed to combat burst attacks. There are invuln moves, aegis, smoke fields, stealth, dodge, stun breaks, all of which counter a correctly anticipated burst attack. This applies to 100 blades warriors just as well, which I rarely die to either.

Also one correct anticipation versus an all-or-nothing burst thief means you get a free kill. If they slip away after truly going all-out then it’s your fault for failing to CC them properly.

Another obvious counter is to just get swiftness (and/or cripple them) and run around. If they shadow step up (and you’ll already be forcing them to use it when they possibly don’t want to) then try and face them when the backstab comes. Half their biggest attack’s damage gone just because you pointed your character the right way.

SKuDDer.1860:

The thing that is the problem, is say the thief doesn’t kill the target and realizes they aren’t going to win, they just CND, and run away easily. There is no draw back to this high burst build. Glass cannon usually means you die when you don’t win, this is not the case at all with thieves. But its fine, keep justifying the High damage, low risk.

So hit them while they’re stealthed. Immobilize them. Pull them. Players are not PvE mobs. They’ve essentially got their whole bar on cooldown and if they hasted they can’t even dodge roll. They probably only have a single avenue of exit. If they have multiple ways out, then it’s your fault for putting yourself in a really bad tactical position.

If you leave yourself vulnerable to someone coming up behind you and bursting you down, in a place where they have their choice of many confusing routes of escape, then a thief 100% deserves to be able to attempt to kill you 1v1 and have a relatively high chance of getting out. That is what they do.

That is also far from the only context that fights come up in, despite what emotional players would have everyone believe.

i think thief is too OP in some situations, we fight, then he stealths, i die, game over …

SFtheWolf.5179:

All the more reason it’s asinine how so many guardians complain that thieves do more damage than them.

When did I ever complain about our damage? I know guardians are not meant for heavy burst or dps, they are suppose to make up for that in mitigation.

SFtheWolf.5179:

The guardian(s) in question built with ridiculously little health, so they’re glass regardless of if they’re cannon.

Exactly how much HP do you think a guardian have? I have 6000 extra health over our base. That’s 600 extra points into vitality. Keep in mind, guardians have no where near the damage output of other professions so taking more off power/precision really hurts their output (even with the build I have, I hit for 3-4k max). You will find 16000 is the average health a guardian has in the hybrid mid range build for damage and defense. Guardians that have 20000 hp, bunker guardians, do hardly any damage and are purely support based.

SFtheWolf.5179:

You dodge roll by anticipating when they’re near you. Everyone has attack patterns and they can be observed and used against them. It’s easy to notice an enemy thief telegraphing their moves in subtle ways over the course of a single PvP match. Maybe it’s just because I play fighting games, but that doesn’t make the point any less valid.

Again, the argument is WvWvW, sure in a PvP scenario, it is clear there is 1 or 2 players coming at you. In WvWvW environment, there might be 10, 15 and you have no time to see what every profession is yet alone who is about to teleport/cnd/backstab you. This is not telegraphed easily in the WvW environment. In PvP yes I will agree.

SFtheWolf.5179:

The render bug is a bug and will be fixed. It’s not appropriate as a long term balance argument.

This is doubtful, its been in the game since alpha, 3rd month past release. There is not going to be an easy way for them to fix this any time soon. It might be another 6 months down the road, and that is a long time to wait to allow one profession to benefit from it, so in the meantime, yes I do feel like an adjustment to stealth should be made to help with the rendering issue (IE render targets by proximity first)

SFtheWolf.5179:

This is aside from the fact that there is such a wealth of counters in this game which are designed to combat burst attacks. There are invuln moves, aegis, smoke fields, stealth, dodge, stun breaks, all of which counter a correctly anticipated burst attack. This applies to 100 blades warriors just as well, which I rarely die to either.

Maybe you should look at the guardian profession and see what they can actually do before assuming they have all these things.

SFtheWolf.5179:

Another obvious counter is to just get swiftness (and/or cripple them) and run around. If they shadow step up (and you’ll already be forcing them to use it when they possibly don’t want to) then try and face them when the backstab comes. Half their biggest attack’s damage gone just because you pointed your character the right way.

Guardians have 0 cripples in their melee and skill abilities. They get 1 cripple in their elite book skill.

SFtheWolf.5179:

So hit them while they’re stealthed. Immobilize them. Pull them. Players are not PvE mobs. They’ve essentially got their whole bar on cooldown and if they hasted they can’t even dodge roll. They probably only have a single avenue of exit. If they have multiple ways out, then it’s your fault for putting yourself in a really bad tactical position.

Guardians have 2 immobilizes, one in the hammer which is a casted line spell for 2s, and the other is from a signet no one ever uses. Greatsword is the only pull guardians have (600 range) a thief can get out of that gap in 3 heartseeker/death blossoms, or shortbow teleport.

SKuDDer.1860:

Point proven: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9o0LJor-HQ

Well, thanks for posting someone else’s kill-reel, I guess. I’ll say what I thought when I saw the video in it’s original thread, here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Exilus-Thief-WvW-vid-Prepare/first. It was some good WvW roaming. He handled his battles well and used both the terrain as well as local PvE enemies to his advantage. He picks his targets well and focuses on any damaged ones first to down them and take them out of the equation. It’s too dark but, overall, a nice enough kill-reel video.

As for the “proof”, this is nothing of the sort. Most (if not all) his enemies may be level 80 but they are also mostly in non-exotic gear where he is in full exotics plus accessories, amulet, and back. This is the main reason why you don’t balance based on WvW youtube videos. He fights against Rangers using bows at point blank range while using the ‘S’ key to try to escape. He fights against Mesmers who try to greatsword him at melee range. Warriors without Endure Pain. Guardians without CC. The list goes on.

If this is what you consider high level play, it’s no wonder you think Thieves need some serious nerfs. The only question is how do you even survive against other classes? Is it just the surprise factor that makes you want Thieves, specifically, targeted for a nerf?

Basically, this video shows how an adept player (I’ll bet he could do this same thing with his alts as well if he has any) can go into WvW and take down people who do not have equivalent gear or skill playing the game. It’s fun to watch a good player carve his way through a sea of bad players but it’s honestly proof of nothing being overpowered.

Also, his build is interesting but it has absolutely nothing to do with backstabing so I don’t really get why you are using it in an attempt to prove backstab needs a nerf. He is specced for 13k hp and pure damage at all times. The backstabs are not what he is showing off in this video at all.

SKuDDer.1860:

1. Glass cannon does not exist in guardian. There is only hybrid builds that are roughly 50% defensively specced with some kind of damage. There is no burst with guardian.
2. How does one learn to dodge roll what one cannot see? Thief steals 900 range or uses shortbow teleport / CND in that time, you do not render them in WvWvW. They position behind you, it takes all of .01s to side step once, backstab… dead or close to death.

When you are a Thief, there are many attacks from many classes that hit like a burst…..especially if you are a glass cannon Thief, which is what we are complaining about here, right?

As for dodging, yeah, it’s not easy. That’s what makes Thieves a viable class and something to be feared. If you could see them coming from a mile away, there wouldn’t be a class in this game that couldn’t defeat them almost every time assuming equal player skill levels.

And I wish people would stop using ANet’s netcode as a reason to nerf anything. If there was a bug in the code that made all Elementalists turn invisible while still being able to deal damage without revealing themselves, would you call to nerf Elementalists or to fix the bug? Don’t ask for a Thief nerf based on culling issues, ask for a fix to culling issues and then re-evaluate once they are fixed.

SKuDDer.1860:

The thing that is the problem, is say the thief doesn’t kill the target and realizes they aren’t going to win, they just CND, and run away easily. There is no draw back to this high burst build. Glass cannon usually means you die when you don’t win, this is not the case at all with thieves. But its fine, keep justifying the High damage, low risk.

Yep. We are mobile and nimble. Knockdown, immobilize, and chill are your best choices when it comes to catching us. If specced for it, cripple can be removed with a dodge roll and stun can be broken with an initiative skill. Many thieves don’t bring withdraw (especially not in the build we are crying about) so all three of those CCs should be fairly effective.

SKuDDer.1860:

I assume you are talking about the videos that were from beta/september which are impossible to do anymore. Same as the thief used to be in sPvP with the signet.

On a side note, google engineer burst damage, search you tube videos, sort by views, and what are the top videos? Thief burst backstab videos lol.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=videos&search_query=gw2+engineer+burst+damage&search_sort=video_view_count

Here you go:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSJLXfV7Ay8&t=5m20s. You really just have to search for something other than “burst damage” as Engineers are more “control” than “burst”. Their thing is not to shell out a bunch of damage in a short time span but rather to riddle the area with damage while CCing thier targets.

Engineers deal A LOT of damage while still having 18k+ hp even in their glass cannon spec. Guardian may be the class I fear more commonly as a Thief but a good Engineer is automatic death to me if I engage. This is because a Mediocre Guardian can give me almost as much trouble as a good one but the difference between a good Engineer and a mediocre one is night and day.

Also note that this is part of the beauty of Guild Wars 2. Engineer and Thief couldn’t be more different but both classes can be very dangerous in the right hands. I prefer that to the washed out WoW-esque every class is generally the same kind of game that excessive nerfing would turn it into. (heh, I judge this on other people’s WoW comments as I never played it)

I appreciate that you are having a rough time with Thieves, SKuDDer, but we are really not the roughest class you will run into in this game by any stretch of the imagination. We are an easy target because of the slippery and deadly nature of our class but we are truly and honestly not so impossible to kill once you just learn how to deal with us. There are people who “deal” with me every day……and even more people who don’t ;-)

@Judas

The main difference in what you linked to thieves, is the burst a thief does in raw spike, can be done with in a 2-3 second period, the engineer has to cast his abilities and cc is target in the aoe. It is much easier to dodge and have reaction time to those burst then a thief. Other glass cannons are visible the whole time while a thief pops in and out of stealth using CND and you are forced to aoe spam randomly. Heartseeker also helps aid a thief to kittenget a player with little skill followed by another CND and easy setup for a backstab. Thieves have a lot of “easy mode”. Also for the XXX time, its the same deal, you comparing PvP to my point is like me comparing WvW to your point, they are vastly different and both cannot be balanced around each other. In WvW, these builds for thieves are too strong.

I would like to see “back” backstab without x2 damage, instead I would like to see it, when hit the back, with conditions, some bleeding and weakness maybe? I think this would prevent the anger against 8k damage and some “instant death” but would be mitigate with some DoT
English is not my firts language, don’t kill me if I made some mistakes =) I hope that all I wrote will be enough understandable

SKuDDer.1860:

Me me me guardian guardian me

My arguments were general and neither meant purely for the guardian class nor purely for you personally.

Tangentially I’m amazed how many people are missing the key detail that guardian is (typically) a team-centric support class, and the thief is (typically) a class about killing people who stray from the pack. Anyone not specifically built for duelling should be disadvantaged in this context by design.

I mean, every single anti-thief argument I’ve read here assumes that you have 0 teammates near you. Maybe that’s their first problem.

SFtheWolf.5179:

SKuDDer.1860:

Me me me guardian guardian me

My arguments were general and neither meant purely for the guardian class nor purely for you personally.

Tangentially I’m amazed how many people are missing the key detail that guardian is (typically) a team-centric support class, and the thief is (typically) a class about killing people who stray from the pack. Anyone not specifically built for duelling should be disadvantaged in this context by design.

I mean, every single anti-thief argument I’ve read here assumes that you have 0 teammates near you. Maybe that’s their first problem.

Oh makes sense now, so what you are saying is that in a game where there is no “classes” guardians are support only and thieves are a kill all class, great argument. If you want to get technical, thieves should only be able to take out cloth/leathers, meaning warrior and guardians should be off limits for a thief to try to kill alone.

SKuDDer.1860:

SFtheWolf.5179:

SKuDDer.1860:

Me me me guardian guardian me

My arguments were general and neither meant purely for the guardian class nor purely for you personally.

Tangentially I’m amazed how many people are missing the key detail that guardian is (typically) a team-centric support class, and the thief is (typically) a class about killing people who stray from the pack. Anyone not specifically built for duelling should be disadvantaged in this context by design.

I mean, every single anti-thief argument I’ve read here assumes that you have 0 teammates near you. Maybe that’s their first problem.

Oh makes sense now, so what you are saying is that in a game where there is no “classes” guardians are support only and thieves are a kill all class, great argument. If you want to get technical, thieves should only be able to take out cloth/leathers, meaning warrior and guardians should be off limits for a thief to try to kill alone.

He didn’t say “thieves are a kill class”, he said that thief is a lone wolf who preys on the foolish or wounded sheep who strays from the pack. Thief, as a class, is built mainly around roaming alone or with another thief and preying on the weak. Thieves are more suited for this type of gameplay than most other classes, but less suited to go up against an organized team than most other classes.

bwillb.2165:

SKuDDer.1860:

SFtheWolf.5179:

SKuDDer.1860:

Me me me guardian guardian me

My arguments were general and neither meant purely for the guardian class nor purely for you personally.

Tangentially I’m amazed how many people are missing the key detail that guardian is (typically) a team-centric support class, and the thief is (typically) a class about killing people who stray from the pack. Anyone not specifically built for duelling should be disadvantaged in this context by design.

I mean, every single anti-thief argument I’ve read here assumes that you have 0 teammates near you. Maybe that’s their first problem.

Oh makes sense now, so what you are saying is that in a game where there is no “classes” guardians are support only and thieves are a kill all class, great argument. If you want to get technical, thieves should only be able to take out cloth/leathers, meaning warrior and guardians should be off limits for a thief to try to kill alone.

He didn’t say “thieves are a kill class”, he said that thief is a lone wolf who preys on the foolish or wounded sheep who strays from the pack. Thief, as a class, is built mainly around roaming alone or with another thief and preying on the weak. Thieves are more suited for this type of gameplay than most other classes, but less suited to go up against an organized team than most other classes.

So now you are saying a thief should only be able to prey on those who are being attacked and not full health? The only thing a thief cannot kill is a full toughness/vitality specced warrior or guardian.

SKuDDer.1860:

bwillb.2165:

SKuDDer.1860:

SFtheWolf.5179:

SKuDDer.1860:

Me me me guardian guardian me

My arguments were general and neither meant purely for the guardian class nor purely for you personally.

Tangentially I’m amazed how many people are missing the key detail that guardian is (typically) a team-centric support class, and the thief is (typically) a class about killing people who stray from the pack. Anyone not specifically built for duelling should be disadvantaged in this context by design.

I mean, every single anti-thief argument I’ve read here assumes that you have 0 teammates near you. Maybe that’s their first problem.

Oh makes sense now, so what you are saying is that in a game where there is no “classes” guardians are support only and thieves are a kill all class, great argument. If you want to get technical, thieves should only be able to take out cloth/leathers, meaning warrior and guardians should be off limits for a thief to try to kill alone.

He didn’t say “thieves are a kill class”, he said that thief is a lone wolf who preys on the foolish or wounded sheep who strays from the pack. Thief, as a class, is built mainly around roaming alone or with another thief and preying on the weak. Thieves are more suited for this type of gameplay than most other classes, but less suited to go up against an organized team than most other classes.

So now you are saying a thief should only be able to prey on those who are being attacked and not full health? The only thing a thief cannot kill is a full toughness/vitality specced warrior or guardian.

No, I’m saying thieves are better at roaming and preying on the weak than most other classes. And that most other classes are better at group engagements than thieves. At no point did I say that either scenario is or should be impossible for either side of that distinction. Let me say it clearly for you here: It’s not, and it should not be.

SKuDDer.1860:

Glass cannon does not exist in guardian. There is only hybrid builds that are roughly 50% defensively specced with some kind of damage. There is no burst with guardian.

I absolutely disagree with this… A guardian player can certainly gear all offense and trait to do as much damage as possible and end up being extremely fragile. It’s not even hard to do. And glass cannon does not necessarily mean burst, it just means lots of damage potential. I’ve seen some guardians accomplish some pretty fearsome overall damage under certain circumstances, too.

That said, I understand your point. If you had said that it’s difficult to make an effective glass cannon guardian, I could agree. People can also just make bad builds.

Breaking away from semantics though, the honest mistake people make is assuming that guardians are automatically durable – they most certainly are not. They have to be specifically built for durability and/or sustainability just like every other class; they just have more potential for accomplishing that goal than most other classes.

Anyone not specifically built for duelling should be disadvantaged in this context by design.

It’s fine for Thieves to have a general class advantage in 1v1. It’s not fine for Thieves to instantly kill almost any 1v1 opponent they find in WvW when they look at them from 900 range.

WHY it is my fault i am OP (check image)
what is wrong with me ?
[IMG]http://i48.tinypic.com/5e8n13.jpg[/IMG]
every ~45sec somebody died

EasymodeX.4062:

Anyone not specifically built for duelling should be disadvantaged in this context by design.

It’s fine for Thieves to have a general class advantage in 1v1. It’s not fine for Thieves to instantly kill almost any 1v1 opponent they find in WvW when they look at them from 900 range.

Except that’s a slanted perspective.

You’re taking a specific subset of thieves (People who have built for assassination, have a plan they intend to carry out, and are likely geared for it) and pitting them against a random target from the general population (likely not level 80, likely not geared, likely doesn’t have a plan, likely has their PvE traits equipped and is just there to zerg).

Play out this matchup with any other profession and you’ll get the same result. I’ve carved through swaths of unprepared players in WvW with a lot more professions than just thief. I’ve burst down stragglers 1v1 and 1v2 as more professions than just thief.

If you changed your hypothetical to involve some totally random thief player versus some totally random target, the odds would even out quite rapidly.

EasymodeX.4062:

Anyone not specifically built for duelling should be disadvantaged in this context by design.

It’s fine for Thieves to have a general class advantage in 1v1. It’s not fine for Thieves to instantly kill almost any 1v1 opponent they find in WvW when they look at them from 900 range.

Again, I am pointing this out. WvW means World vs World, 1v1 means one-on-one.

Ichishi.9613:

EasymodeX.4062:

Anyone not specifically built for duelling should be disadvantaged in this context by design.

It’s fine for Thieves to have a general class advantage in 1v1. It’s not fine for Thieves to instantly kill almost any 1v1 opponent they find in WvW when they look at them from 900 range.

Again, I am pointing this out. WvW means World vs World, 1v1 means one-on-one.

It’s true, and in a massive group fight a thief is not nearly as valuable as other classes with better ranged attacks and aoe. I can do some ranged harass with cluster bomb, but really the most effective thing i can do in a large battle is pull someone into my group with scorpion wire. If I jump out into their group to do my main damage I get absolutely destroyed.

Thief is strong 1v1, but mediocre at best in large scale fights.