Guild Wars 2

I’d like it if all future thief damage nerfs are split for pvp/pve.

Awe.1096:

NightyNight.1823:

Another story and no arguments.You totaly proved your point man..thieves are soooo OP.How did it passed me.Wait thieves or BS thieves?You didn’t reffered to any in particular.
ohh so sad.. so sad..my lifes so sad..

And what is one of the most common argument thrown be thieves around here?
“You are bad. Learn to play.” Honestly, a king of all arguments.

The thing is, this is usually the truth. I made a post specifically giving you advice and informing you on the class and clearing misconceptions and instead of using that information you cried about having to change your play style.

That is showing an unwillingness to adapt to situations and feeling that your cookie cutter rotations and builds should work regardless of who or what you’re up against.

in other words, stop being bad.

So today I had an encounter with a warrior who knew how to dodge my backstab, knew how to counter it, used immobilization on me(pin down, it was called, rendering my stealth useless) then proceeded to switch to his rifle, and use killshot for 9K instantly killing me, but hey, thief is the only one that’s OP, right? Because burst doesn’t exist elsewhere, right? Because there aren’t other classes that have the same amount of damage, right? Because there aren’t players that know how to counter thief, right? (sarcasm, if you didn’t understand).

Want me to post the pictures then ask.

I am sick about that “its easily counterable”. How kitten you want counter something you didnt see? I am ok with dmg because its that what stealth classes must have. Real problem are that milion stealths. I dont want hear that “its only few seconds” because its not true. When you try with 15 ppl try 10 minutes kill permastealthed thief on point in WvW is something wrong.

Rozbuska.5263:

I am sick about that “its easily counterable”. How kitten you want counter something you didnt see? I am ok with dmg because its that what stealth classes must have. Real problem are that milion stealths. I dont want hear the “its only few seconds” because its not true. When you try with 15 ppl try 10 minutes kill permastealthed thief on point in WvW is something wrong.

Its been said once, its been said twice, its been said 102810943478315 times. The so-called “permastealth” that everyone is claiming thieves to have is a (wait for it, you’ll never guess the answer) Rendering Bug. Its something wrong with the game engine so its wrong on so many levels to blame that on the profession.

This discussion is getting old very fast. Nice little circles, but I die too fast. It’s their purpose. Who cares!

50% of it is a rendering bug.
30% of it is the thieves that are whined about are better than their targets: gear, lvl, skill!
20% Rock/Paper/Scissors!

Last night in wvw I came into the zone late. I was moving over to my group when I saw a little fluffy rabbit from our side walking around. Just the target I would squish if I was solo. And big surprise, I saw two enemy thieves circling around. Poison shot + cluster bomb on the little guardian. Steal on the one that pops, cluster bomb, one down. Stealth up to avoid getting bombed and to stake the little fellow. His friend puts up his stealth field. Three more shots on the field. Second bag appears.

Learn how to counter thieves. Then when the rendering bugs are gone, people will actually laugh at the watered down thieves.

Backstab is and isn’t OP, depending greatly on the situation and opponent. I think nerfing the damage and buffing stealth is the best option for satisfying everyone:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Nerf-Backstab-Buff-Stealth-Best-Fix-for-Thieves/first#post658979

To be fair I have to admit that backstab on its own doesnt sound so much OP. Neither do most other thief abilities out there. The problem is with how certain several abilities work well together. Thief is probably best “synergized” class atm. Every class gets some strong moves. But the package comparison is definitely on thieves side, even if used mostly as a pubstomping build. Stealth alone is probably the largest culrpit that ties all this together. The class itself would need a larger rebalance IMO. And as for people saying that players having problems with thieves are noobs etc. Well, in such case it is funny how I am the huge noob only when faced against a thief. Why I feel that I have things under control when I fight against seven different classes (even if I loose against them) and vs. thief my current plan is usually “stay away as far as possible and dont engage to not get his attention”?

JonathanSharp.7094:

Just wanted you guys to know we’re looking at this specifically right now. We will probably bring down the raw spike DPS for some builds, but we’ll be careful to increase other areas to compensate.

pls keep in mind that by nerfing burst specs (thieves or not) you will also be indirectly buffing BUNKER specs since as is, it takes 3+ ppl to take down a bunker speced profession, by nerfing burst, bunkers will be alot harder to kill.

Not trying to convince you not to nerf dps but just reminding you that bunker specs will also need to be looked at BEFORE nerfing any dps specs.

I see a lot of “theif is powerful in 1v1 but sucks in masspvp so it’s all good”. Well theif would be good in 1v1 even if they had lower damage but that would require the theif to have some skill. Now basically any kitten can make a theif, use steal – cloak and dagger – backstab – dead enemy. I’ve seen good theives I have, but most of the theives I face are noobs. People who don’t even know how to play the game. Who don’t know how to avoid attacks or how to dodge. And getting killed by a person like that, just cuz’ he takes half my hp in 1 hit then runs in stealth and takes the other half is annoying as hell. Now I’ve managed to learn how to counter theif somewhat. But the damage is just lol. Also the stealth bug is so kitten I just wanna cry. Sometimes I find myself getting attacked for 5-10 seconds without seeing anyone, without being able to counter the attack and then BOOM – dead. And after I’m downed a theif shows up out of stealth to finish me off. That is just kitten

EDIT: Love the kitten thing LoL

I never said anything about my build so you giving me advice on it is hilarious. Fact is I play a vit/thoughness base build.

Calle.8746:

I see a lot of “theif is powerful in 1v1 but sucks in masspvp so it’s all good”. Well theif would be good in 1v1 even if they had lower damage but that would require the theif to have some skill. Now basically any kitten can make a theif, use steal – cloak and dagger – backstab – dead enemy. I’ve seen good theives I have, but most of the theives I face are noobs. People who don’t even know how to play the game. Who don’t know how to avoid attacks or how to dodge. And getting killed by a person like that, just cuz’ he takes half my hp in 1 hit then runs in stealth and takes the other half is annoying as hell. Now I’ve managed to learn how to counter theif somewhat. But the damage is just lol. Also the stealth bug is so kitten I just wanna cry. Sometimes I find myself getting attacked for 5-10 seconds without seeing anyone, without being able to counter the attack and then BOOM – dead. And after I’m downed a theif shows up out of stealth to finish me off. That is just kitten

EDIT: Love the kitten thing LoL

Should I start complaining about bugs (character rendering) like you do? What about Bladetrail, huh? Nobody notices that? Ability, intended to work as a cripple-application skill does much more damage than the Thiefs burst (Everybody seen that screenshot, lot of ppl tested it on their own), still, Thiefs burst with bugged rendering is the biggest issue of them all…..
I say, fix first, balance after, only that way it can be fair and not fail….

ALT+F4 – Best Skill ever to avoid being killed by a backstab nap

STRanger.5120:

Calle.8746:

I see a lot of “theif is powerful in 1v1 but sucks in masspvp so it’s all good”. Well theif would be good in 1v1 even if they had lower damage but that would require the theif to have some skill. Now basically any kitten can make a theif, use steal – cloak and dagger – backstab – dead enemy. I’ve seen good theives I have, but most of the theives I face are noobs. People who don’t even know how to play the game. Who don’t know how to avoid attacks or how to dodge. And getting killed by a person like that, just cuz’ he takes half my hp in 1 hit then runs in stealth and takes the other half is annoying as hell. Now I’ve managed to learn how to counter theif somewhat. But the damage is just lol. Also the stealth bug is so kitten I just wanna cry. Sometimes I find myself getting attacked for 5-10 seconds without seeing anyone, without being able to counter the attack and then BOOM – dead. And after I’m downed a theif shows up out of stealth to finish me off. That is just kitten

EDIT: Love the kitten thing LoL

Should I start complaining about bugs (character rendering) like you do? What about Bladetrail, huh? Nobody notices that? Ability, intended to work as a cripple-application skill does much more damage than the Thiefs burst (Everybody seen that screenshot, lot of ppl tested it on their own), still, Thiefs burst with bugged rendering is the biggest issue of them all…..
I say, fix first, balance after, only that way it can be fair and not fail….

The main subject of my reply was the damage, but obviously, since u couldn’t disagree with that u had to say something. I only pointed out that the bug is annoying as hell and since this forum section is about theives so I don’t see any point of bring up the other classes.

There will always be bugs. Bugs – balance, non is more important to fix then the other. Wich is why I’m pretty sure Anet doesn’t have their entire team working on just bugs, or just balance but both.

And this topic is about theives. There are topics on other proffsections about their messed up skills or damage or bugs or whatever. I really don’t get why you come here with your “well that class does that and this class does this”. It doesn’t belong here. GTFO

Calle.8746:

There will always be bugs. Bugs – balance, non is more important to fix then the other.

I agree that there will always be bugs, but in reality bugs are more important than balance because its the bugs that cause the imbalance, if the devs paid more attention to bugs before trying to balance anything, I’m sure they would find that many of the balance issues will smooth themselves out, 2 birds with 1 stone.

Calle.8746:

The main subject of my reply was the damage, but obviously, since u couldn’t disagree with that u had to say something. I only pointed out that the bug is annoying as hell and since this forum section is about theives so I don’t see any point of bring up the other classes.

There will always be bugs. Bugs – balance, non is more important to fix then the other. Wich is why I’m pretty sure Anet doesn’t have their entire team working on just bugs, or just balance but both.

And this topic is about theives. There are topics on other proffsections about their messed up skills or damage or bugs or whatever. I really don’t get why you come here with your “well that class does that and this class does this”. It doesn’t belong here. GTFO

No need to be rude, pal.

I just wanted to point out that there are many bugs present for a quite a long time and I believe that balancing things without these bugs corrected (I don´t mean any concrete bugs – all classes have some which are quite fatal) is really contraproductive. I´m not really defending Thiefs burst, I just don´t want the class destroyed before bugfixing (which unfortunately happened to the Elementalist, for the ppl who don´t want to play bunker Ele —- which sounds really stupid for a caster you know. It´s like if Druids in another game were forced to play Feral tanks because any other build just sucks.).

STRanger.5120:

DesertRose.2031:

STRanger.5120:

Jefzor.7145:

The CnD+Steal combo needs a fix. The backstab damage itself is fine imo.

Any suggestion how to fix it?

Give Steal a 1/4 cast time and don’t let it trigger Venom-type skills (cannot check if it already behaves so).
That way the time the target has to react to this combo goes up from virtually 0 to 0.5-0.75 seconds.

That would result in usage of Infiltrators signet instead of stealing and stealing usage just as a damaging gap closer.
Maybe it will be better if you actually do some research to the class before suggesting anything (not meant offensively guys).
Also if you give all those shadowsteps a casting time, it will kinda destroy the class I think Also as I said earlier, not only thieves are using this technique (skill + instant teleport to ensure hitting), so it would be kinda unfair, as I remember Anet stated that it is working as intended (not sure, but I think I´ve seen this statement somewhere).

Also there is problem with not-triggering venoms. This is still quite bugged (even signets trigger venoms if I remember correctly).
So I would like to see the class bugs fixed before any balance things are adressed (The same situation with Elementalist, where it is even much worse, but the class was greatly nerfed already…)

It doesn’t need a casting time, but it does need to interrupt whatever skill you were previously using (and so should shadowstep, and so should all other instant teleport skills from other classes)

Jefzor.7145:

It doesn’t need a casting time, but it does need to interrupt whatever skill you were previously using (and so should shadowstep, and so should all other instant teleport skills from other classes)

That would definitely solve some problems with this, but it will actually render some skills totally unusable (like the above mentioned Churning Earth, that spell will no longer be viable for PvP usage and very risky in PvE too…). So alteration of those skills would be needed too.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/How-to-handle-thieves

why is it that good guardians dont complain about thieves, however bad guardians go to our thread and complaint about things,

why? why oh why?

STRanger.5120:

Jefzor.7145:

It doesn’t need a casting time, but it does need to interrupt whatever skill you were previously using (and so should shadowstep, and so should all other instant teleport skills from other classes)

That would definitely solve some problems with this, but it will actually render some skills totally unusable (like the above mentioned Churning Earth, that spell will no longer be viable for PvP usage and very risky in PvE too…). So alteration of those skills would be needed too.

Well, I’m not sure about other classes, to be honest. That was just assuming they had similar abuses of the same game mechanic that could use a similar fix.

Jefzor.7145:

STRanger.5120:

Jefzor.7145:

It doesn’t need a casting time, but it does need to interrupt whatever skill you were previously using (and so should shadowstep, and so should all other instant teleport skills from other classes)

That would definitely solve some problems with this, but it will actually render some skills totally unusable (like the above mentioned Churning Earth, that spell will no longer be viable for PvP usage and very risky in PvE too…). So alteration of those skills would be needed too.

Well, I’m not sure about other classes, to be honest. That was just assuming they had similar abuses of the same game mechanic that could use a similar fix.

I´m sure about Elementalists, as I have one myself. I don´t know accurately how this is used by other classes, only heard about that. But the Ele combo would be ruined by this for sure, that comes from my own experience.

You’re taking a specific subset of thieves (People who have built for assassination, have a plan they intend to carry out, and are likely geared for it) and pitting them against a random target from the general population (likely not level 80, likely not geared, likely doesn’t have a plan, likely has their PvE traits equipped and is just there to zerg).

You’re assuming a lot of things. Random target from the general population? Please. The thief combo deals more than two times the amount of HP a glass level 80 has within 0.3 seconds.

A level 80 with hybrid defensive exotics will still get instakilled. Full toughness will not reduce damage by 2/3s. Full vit will not triple HP.

You demand full 100% tank gear and traiting to merely survive the first 0.3 seconds of a fight, when the Thief still has 2 utilities, 1 elite, a heal, and 8+ initiative available.

Absurd.

Why exactly do you feel that a Thief should be able to deal twice the damage of another glass cannon profession in half the time, while using fewer resources and maintaining higher survivability, all in the same package?

Something’s going to give, and it will probably be coming down in the next patch to two.

In any case, as I said in a previous post, the issue isn’t really the raw damage for the most part (except for Mug), and can be easily fixed with small tuning that could also buff Thief builds in general.

EasymodeX.4062:

when the Thief still has 2 utilities, 1 elite, a heal, and 8+ initiative available.

I´m quite interested where did you got those numbers? Enlighten me please, because I didn´t saw a single Thief who manages to have these after the so called OP combo. Thank you.

Duh, the combo uses Signet, CND, Mug, Backstab.

sPvP variants probably crutch on Basilisk Venom because sPvP gear has less DPS, so you actually want to follow up the combo with 1 HS or a couple autoattacks. However, for WvW it’s unnecessary.

This leaves you with, as I said previously, 2 utilities, 1 elite, a heal, and a pile of initiative because the only thing that cost any was CND.

Why am I explaining to you how your class works?

Hmm.

Edit: Although “your” is probably the wrong word since I have a Thief too … doesn’t everyone?

EasymodeX.4062:

Duh, the combo uses Signet, CND, Mug, Backstab.

sPvP variants probably crutch on Basilisk Venom because sPvP gear has less DPS, so you actually want to follow up the combo with 1 HS or a couple autoattacks. However, for WvW it’s unnecessary.

This leaves you with, as I said previously, 2 utilities, 1 elite, a heal, and a pile of initiative because the only thing that cost any was CND.

Why am I explaining to you how your class works?

Hmm.

Edit: Although “your” is probably the wrong word since I have a Thief too … doesn’t everyone?

A little correction on this, sorry bro.

This combo ppl are complaining about is using Basilisk/Devourer venom (1 Elite/util slot), Assasins signet (another util slot) and a lot of ppl are using another signet for the 5x might boon (you know, to do the damage :-) ), so that leaves you with 1 utility or 1 elite slot left (basically the basilisk is used more because it´s better for this purpose), so 1 utility slot left…. and some initiative (9 if traited to Trickstery, less when traited for some survival).

See the difference?

This combo ppl are complaining about is using Basilisk/Devourer venom (1 Elite/util slot), Assasins signet (another util slot) and a lot of ppl are using another signet for the 5x might boon (you know, to do the damage :-) ), so that leaves you with 1 utility or 1 elite slot left (basically the basilisk is used more because it´s better for this purpose), so 1 utility slot left…. and some initiative (9 if traited to Trickstery, less when traited for some survival).
See the difference?

Lol, no. The combo itself is SigAss-CND-Mug-Backstab.

Basilisk and Devourer are for longer sPvP fights that no one cares about because sPvP Berserker gear doesn’t have the extra 40% crit damage on it, nevermind food buffs. However, in either case those are not core to the combo that executes in 0.3 seconds. They are extra stacking to make that single combo more effective.

Extra Might boon stacking is beyond unnecessary in WvW or sPvP, and makes a good backstab gimmick build into a terrible backstab gimmick build.

If you’re suggesting that the “combo” also “requires” vulnerability stacks from a Pistol swap, and a utility slot for poison to reduce healing, and …

Get over it. Sig-CND-Mug-BS is the combo; the rest is fluff.

EasymodeX.4062:

Get over it. Sig-CND-Mug-BS is the combo; the rest is fluff.

This combo is easier to avoid than the BR + 100b combo, therefore there is nothing to talk about if you consider that OP….

STRanger.5120:

EasymodeX.4062:

Get over it. Sig-CND-Mug-BS is the combo; the rest is fluff.

This combo is easier to avoid than the BR + 100b combo, therefore there is nothing to talk about if you consider that OP….

Oh please, you can dodge BR on reflex 99% of the time. And, HB takes twice as long to execute with Frenzy than CND-Mug-BS takes to execute without Quickness.

EasymodeX.4062:

STRanger.5120:

EasymodeX.4062:

Get over it. Sig-CND-Mug-BS is the combo; the rest is fluff.

This combo is easier to avoid than the BR + 100b combo, therefore there is nothing to talk about if you consider that OP….

Oh please, you can dodge BR on reflex 99% of the time. And, HB takes twice as long to execute with Frenzy than CND-Mug-BS takes to execute without Quickness.

You can dodge C&D + Steal at the same rate minimum…. Nothing more to say…

Except no, because CnD+Mug has nearly zero telegraph, and there is no indication of what spec the Thief is.

The BR CC and effect doesn’t take place until a quarter second after the BR arrives at your position, which is a half second after it begins, so you have just under 0.75 seconds to dodge a blatantly obvious animation irrespective of build.

The Mug is instantaneous, and the CnD animation itself is very subtle. Also, there’s no way to tell what build the player is who’s using the CND-Mug combo.

Furthermore, the CnD + Backstab full animation time is similar to the BR time, but the HB is completely in excess of the CND+Mug+BS. In other words, BR finished by the time the Thief cast their entire combo. By the time the Hundred Blades would even begin in the case of a Warrior, you are already dead in the case of a Thief.

You’re making a ton of excuses trying to pretend that a slow damage over time combo is anywhere near as good as an instakill combo.

EasymodeX.4062:

Except no, because CnD+Mug has nearly zero telegraph, and there is no indication of what spec the Thief is.

The BR CC and effect doesn’t take place until a quarter second after the BR arrives at your position, which is a half second after it begins, so you have just under 0.75 seconds to dodge a blatantly obvious animation irrespective of build.

The Mug is instantaneous, and the CnD animation itself is very subtle. Also, there’s no way to tell what build the player is who’s using the CND-Mug combo.

Furthermore, the CnD + Backstab full animation time is similar to the BR time, but the HB is completely in excess of the CND+Mug+BS. In other words, BR finished by the time the Thief cast their entire combo. By the time the Hundred Blades would even begin in the case of a Warrior, you are already dead in the case of a Thief.

You’re making a ton of excuses trying to pretend that a slow damage over time combo is anywhere near as good as an instakill combo.

The animation of C&D seems very obvious for me, and if you see a Thief running to you, with daggers in hands (daggers are small, you know), you have to be prepared that he will probably perform this combo. End of story…

EasymodeX.4062:

You’re making a ton of excuses trying to pretend that a slow damage over time combo is anywhere near as good as an instakill combo.

That’s because said “instakill” combo is only an instant kill against glass cannons or players who aren’t paying attention. Other classes can burst just as hard.

Also, please tell me you’re not saying Hundred Blades is “slow damage over time.” It hits nearly three times as hard as Backstab – in AoE, mind you – and with all of the CC options for warrior, can be easily linked into by CC. One combo, for example: Rush (or Whirlwind) → Fear Me → Bull’s Charge (to guarantee the hit, since you claim it’s hard to hit with) → Frenzy → Hundred Blades.

Warrior has insane burst options; they just don’t have the distance closers that a thief has. This is because a thief also has 8k less health, less defense, worse break stuns, far less AoE damage or AoE burst and worse condition removal/invulnerability. All a thief has is single target burst and stealth.

The fact that you consider Hundred Blades to be “slow damage over time” just because it’s a 3 second long cast – while ignoring the fact that it’s the single strongest skill in the game on an 8 second cooldown – makes it hard to trust anything you say. Yes, it can be tricky to hit. There’s no arguing this. Just as Pistol Whip can be tricky to hit. But a thief doesn’t have the numerous CC options a warrior has.

i BELIVE bunker builds like elementalist/guardian etc. SHOULD also be nerfed.
if we are 2 vs 1, we can’t kill one bunker/ if we are 3, it is really hard.

That’s because said “instakill” combo is only an instant kill against glass cannons or players who aren’t paying attention. Other classes can burst just as hard.

It instakills any target in WvW unless they are in full tank gear.

Also, please tell me you’re not saying Hundred Blades is “slow damage over time.”

HB is 3.5s. BR is 0.75-1.0s depending on distance. Full combo is 4.25-4.5s. Using Frenzy drops the HB to 1.75s, for a combo of 2.5-2.75s.

CND-Mug-BS is 1.0s total, with a 0.3s damage footprint.

2.5s is over twice as long as 1.0s. Hence, it’s slow as kitten compared to the BS combo.

It hits nearly three times as hard as Backstab

It does not hit nearly three times as hard as CND+Mug+Backstab. It hits for about the same. In over twice the time.

and with all of the CC options for warrior, can be easily linked into by CC. One combo,

Now you’re extrapolating unnecessary and additional counterable effects. The same could be said of Devourer or Basilisk Venom. They are extant to the combo and only exist to “help secure” the combo.

Your extended HB combo is hilarious and gives the player 5+ seconds to react and/or prepare for the expected HB. All the while the Thief’s target is already dead after 0.3s of being in range.

It’s pretty obvious: any HB combo requires CC for the HB. The BS combo doesn’t require CC, because the damage is within 0.3 seconds and typically kills the target.

Yes, it can be tricky to hit. There’s no arguing this. Just as Pistol Whip can be tricky to hit. But a thief doesn’t have the numerous CC options a warrior has.

1. We’re not talking about Pistol Whip, which is actually congruous with HB. Pistol Whip is not a problem (especially after the nerfs which weren’t really necessary). In addition, PW has an integrated stun.

2. Thieves have as many CC options via poisons. Less forgetting of half your class especially when the other poster brought them up this very page. Thanks.

STRanger.5120:

The animation of C&D seems very obvious for me, and if you see a Thief running to you, with daggers in hands (daggers are small, you know), you have to be prepared that he will probably perform this combo. End of story…

Ah yes, I should assume that any thief with daggers is a backstab gimmick Thief and blow double dodge when I see them at 1200 range. This is assuming I can identify they have dual daggers equipped in the 0.2 seconds I have to identify that they are a Thief at all before I die. Unfortunately, I’m a terrible player and I can’t ID class and weapon setup in 0.2 seconds in WvW.

They’re also never going to be a Death Blossom condition spec, or HS spam quickness spec (not many of those nowadays though, to be sure).

And they can’t just hold the Mug and use CND again for the expiration of my dodge.

Lawls.

EasymodeX.4062:

It hits nearly three times as hard as Backstab

It does not hit nearly three times as hard as CND+Mug+Backstab. It hits for about the same. In over twice the time.

Now you’re extrapolating unnecessary and additional counterable effects. The same could be said of Devourer or Basilisk Venom. They are extant to the combo and only exist to “help secure” the combo.

Your extended HB combo is hilarious and gives the player 5+ seconds to react and/or prepare for the expected HB. All the while the Thief’s target is already dead after 0.3s of being in range.

1. We’re not talking about Pistol Whip, which is actually congruous with HB. Pistol Whip is not a problem (especially after the nerfs which weren’t really necessary). In addition, PW has an integrated stun.

2. Thieves have as many CC options via poisons. Less forgetting of half your class especially when the other poster brought them up this very page. Thanks.

Apparently, you think that three skills required to hit as hard as one skill somehow makes that one skill underpowered. That’s completely asinine. You can only repeat the 3 skill combo every 45 seconds, whereas Hundred Blades has an 8 second CD.

I’m well aware that HB combo is bad. I’d never use that many CC utilities on warrior. But the fact is that it exists.

1. I’m well aware we weren’t talking about it. I just brought up two abilities that were comparable because they’re somewhat hard to hit with.

2. This part is just hilarious. Thief has as many CC options as warrior? Thief has one CC option from venoms: a 1.5 second stun that can be broken out of. This stun also has a 1 second cast time, and if the ability used after it misses, it’s completely wasted. A warrior can have roughly 6 CC options while also having GS. If you count immobilize (which I assume you do, even though it’s a condition), it can have another one from Bladetrail. You can’t compare any other class’s CC options to a warrior’s. They have by far the most.

Doomdesire.9365:

So today I had an encounter with a warrior who knew how to dodge my backstab, knew how to counter it, used immobilization on me(pin down, it was called, rendering my stealth useless) then proceeded to switch to his rifle, and use killshot for 9K instantly killing me, but hey, thief is the only one that’s OP, right? Because burst doesn’t exist elsewhere, right? Because there aren’t other classes that have the same amount of damage, right? Because there aren’t players that know how to counter thief, right? (sarcasm, if you didn’t understand).

Want me to post the pictures then ask.

Don’t know which is more sad that you countered you perfectly or that you couldn’t evade a killshot.

epicsmooth.7825:

Doomdesire.9365:

So today I had an encounter with a warrior who knew how to dodge my backstab, knew how to counter it, used immobilization on me(pin down, it was called, rendering my stealth useless) then proceeded to switch to his rifle, and use killshot for 9K instantly killing me, but hey, thief is the only one that’s OP, right? Because burst doesn’t exist elsewhere, right? Because there aren’t other classes that have the same amount of damage, right? Because there aren’t players that know how to counter thief, right? (sarcasm, if you didn’t understand).

Want me to post the pictures then ask.

Don’t know which is more sad that you countered you perfectly or that you couldn’t evade a killshot.

Excuse him that he couldn’t evade while immobilized.

Apparently, you think that three skills required to hit as hard as one skill somehow makes that one skill underpowered.

Never said HB was “underpowered”. I said it was slow and over time. Compared to CND-Mug-Backstab, it is very slow.

1. I’m well aware we weren’t talking about it. I just brought up two abilities that were comparable because they’re somewhat hard to hit with.

PW and HB are way, way harder to hit with than the BS combo.

2. This part is just hilarious. Thief has as many CC options as warrior?

As many, no, but many and sufficient? Yes, if they are even necessary (which they are not for the context of this thread).

A warrior can have roughly 6 CC options while also having GS.

6 CC options! That sounds impressive! Are we including weapon swaps like the Sword stealth daze or Sword immobilize now? Or wire which pulls and includes a knockdown? Maybe we should include the Pistol Whip stun as part of a CC chain for the backstab combo?

Man these are great ideas.

Or maybe we could just instakill the target.

If you count immobilize (which I assume you do, even though it’s a condition), it can have another one from Bladetrail. You can’t compare any other class’s CC options to a warrior’s. They have by far the most.

Oh yeah, let’s count Bladetrail’s immobilize like we count Steal’s Daze. This thread is getting better and better.

Blade Trail actually does A lot of Damage, Steals daze is a 30 point trait, blade trail isn’t.

Nobody takes steals “daze” trait unless they are a condition thief.

Krathalos.3461:

Excuse him that he couldn’t evade while immobilized.

He had a hair under 2.0 seconds to counter the Immobilize and dodge, or directly interrupt the Warrior.

This is the difference: a Warr can burst with a kill shot after 2 seconds of animation after a CC; a Thief can burst for more damage within 0.3 seconds with no CC since it happens so quickly.

EasymodeX.4062:

A warrior can have roughly 6 CC options while also having GS.

6 CC options! That sounds impressive! Are we including weapon swaps like the Sword stealth daze or Sword immobilize now? Or wire which pulls and includes a knockdown? Maybe we should include the Pistol Whip stun as part of a CC chain for the backstab combo?

Man these are great ideas.

Or maybe we could just instakill the target.

If you count immobilize (which I assume you do, even though it’s a condition), it can have another one from Bladetrail. You can’t compare any other class’s CC options to a warrior’s. They have by far the most.

Oh yeah, let’s count Bladetrail’s immobilize like we count Steal’s Daze. This thread is getting better and better.

You’re just grasping for straws now. Mace/Shield (or Mace/Mace) + GS is viable to use for warrior (especially for a class that can be based on weapon swapping). Sword has a daze, yes, but it’s required to hit from behind and it’s a stealth attack. Pistol Whip’s stun is not a CC that can be followed upon, like every single warrior’s CC. It’s irrelevant. Scorpion Wire is a good CC, but not going to be used in these Backstab builds you are claiming to be overpowered.

See, I gave you an actually possible build. You then proceeded to list every single CC ability a thief can have – an extremely underwhelming list at that – to try to back up your point.

D/D + SB is going to be used in the builds you’re claiming. This build together has one ability that you seem to consider as CC: shortbow’s stealth attack. It’s an immobilize. Then you count utilities, which can give you a total of two. The other two slots will be taken for Shadow Refuge and Assassin’s Signet, since they’re pretty much required in this burst combo.

EasymodeX.4062:

Krathalos.3461:

Excuse him that he couldn’t evade while immobilized.

He had a hair under 2.0 seconds to counter the Immobilize and dodge, or directly interrupt the Warrior.

This is the difference: a Warr can burst with a kill shot after 2 seconds of animation after a CC; a Thief can burst for more damage within 0.3 seconds with no CC since it happens so quickly.

Except thief doesn’t have an interruption that can reach 1500 range on any build possible. The warrior could have also been behind him, thus making an interruption impossible while immobilized.

A thief can’t do anything in .3 seconds.

Krathalos.3461:

Excuse him that he couldn’t evade while immobilized.

Hide in Shadows
Withdraw
Shadow Refuge
Smoke Screen
Roll for Initiative
Scorpion Wire
Headshot

pretty sure Im missing a few.

Daecollo.9578:

Blade Trail actually does A lot of Damage, Steals daze is a 30 point trait, blade trail isn’t.

Nobody takes steals “daze” trait unless they are a condition thief.

Well Blade trail is currently bugged where is can hit for kitten amounts of damage.

epicsmooth.7825:

Krathalos.3461:

Excuse him that he couldn’t evade while immobilized.

Hide in Shadows
Withdraw
Shadow Refuge
Smoke Screen
Roll for Initiative
Scorpion Wire
Headshot

pretty sure Im missing a few.

Hide in Shadows does nothing to immobilize.
Withdraw is pretty awful. No one is going to use it when thief already lacks condition removal options, and Hide in Shadows give you this. It’s a very niche ability, and one that is outclassed even on those builds.
Shadow Refuge does nothing to immobilize.
Smoke Screen can’t be used behind you. Also pretty bad as a whole and rarely used.
Roll for initiative has a 60 second CD and is rarely used. It could have been on CD or he could have not had it.
Scorpion Wire has 900 range and can’t be used behind you.
Headshot has 900 range and is a pistol off-hand ability, which he more than likely didn’t have. Also can’t be used behind you.

Withdraw is a heal skill, you have to sacrifice a bit of healing and survivability and stealth to get it.

Hide in Shadows does not cure immobilize alone.

Shadow Refuge does not cure immobilize, takes a utility slot, which means you have to contest it with SoS/Assassin’s Signet.

Smoke Screen does not cure immobilize.

Roll for Initiative takes a utility slot, which means you have to contest it with SoS/Assassin’s Signet.

Scorpion Wire does not cure immobilize.

Head Shot does not cure immobilize.

Daze must be behind for sword, very unlikely if your fighting a warrior who is always in front of you 99% of the time constantly attacking and swinging at you, unless he does not know how to play his class.

The 30 point “Steal also Dazes” is deep in trickery (condition.) and is almost a waste if you want to do any sort of burst damage, unless your talking about our mythical 30/30/30/30/30 build.

Also do not list Shadow’s Embrace “Cures a condition every 3 seconds in stealth” as a viable stun breaker, if your playing a proper warrior you will have stacks of bleeding and cripple almost at all times, especially if your using a greatsword or sword, if your using an axe you will have vulnerability and bleeding, if you have the 33% chance to cause vuln on crit, you will have Cripple/Vulnerability/Bleeding on the thief. So the thief is pretty much rolling the dice to see which one that trait cures.

Daecollo.9578:

Blade Trail actually does A lot of Damage, Steals daze is a 30 point trait, blade trail isn’t.

Nobody takes steals “daze” trait unless they are a condition thief.

Immob on Bladetrail requires a trait in the defense tree, e.g. not a glass cannon Warrior.

Since we’re throwing in all sorts of traited CC augments, let’s add the Thief Immobilize when target’s HP is low.

Also, Bladetrail doesn’t do a “lot” of damage; it’s damage is moderate and the DPS is marginally higher than autoattacks when the second hit actually lands. There is a current bug though that makes Bladetrail actually do a lot of damage, but that will be fixed.

Krathalos.3461:

Hide in Shadows does nothing to immobilize.
Shadow Refuge does nothing to immobilize.

Can’t hit you with kill shot if he doesn’t see you.

Withdraw is pretty awful. No one is going to use it when thief already lacks condition removal options, and Hide in Shadows give you this. It’s a very niche ability, and one that is outclassed even on those builds.
Smoke Screen can’t be used behind you. Also pretty bad as a whole and rarely used.
Roll for initiative has a 60 second CD and is rarely used. It could have been on CD or he could have not had it.
Scorpion Wire has 900 range and can’t be used behind you.
Headshot has 900 range and is a pistol off-hand ability, which he more than likely didn’t have. Also can’t be used behind you.

sigh…

Also I forgot you could shadow step away or to the warrior also.

But those pesky Bow+Gun warriors are all the rage.

Edit: People seem to be way to focused on the “immobilize”

Come on man, you’re going to see bow+gun Warrs at least as often as you see S/D+P/P thieves.

The Sword/Dagger is perfect for setting up Unload DPS from the Pistol, right? Man these CC+ weapon swap channel DPS builds sound fabulous.

As a thief, my biggest fear is the sword/warhorn warriors or axe/warhorn warriors.
Comparing a First tier trait (10 points.) to a (30 points trait.) is pretty silly though, dazing for 1 second every steal is very terrible for what you have to sacrifice for it. (30 points into the condition tree for a direct damage move…)

Warriors however can use Sword’s 1 to get a cripple every 3 autoattacks and immobilize every 3 autoattacks, then “http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Opportunist_” Gain fury from that and with boon duration, get pretty much perma fury.

With Warhorn you can get Perma Swiftness/Vigor and EXCELLENT condition removal.