Balance update net loss
The added survivability was mainly to acro, nothing done to SA, if I remember correctly. I still don’t see any reason to use acro over DD.
That is why U use such things like stealth and shadowstep to avoid being even in consideration as a target unless you have an opportunity to strike.
Thieves being oneshots is stupid. We are literally the hardest class to kill at all.
A good thief with a reasonably good team should not die.
You only die because:
a) You miscalculated and played too aggressive at the wrong time.
b) Your team is so bad you had to actively participate and stay in a teamfight or deny a cap.
Both is not supposed to happen.
How exactly to oneshot us:
-Being a bloody idiot and triggering a full set of dh traps without a dodge or even an emergency shadowstep.
-Getting hit by a condi burst and dont cleanse it
-Getting stunned and not using shadowstep within 0,5 seconds.
-Meeting another thief of superior skill. The only thing besides my own stupidity that can kill me is another thief. Either they are better, or they find me exhausted, damaged and on cooldowns.
How can that be killed, which can not fight nor be fought?
I do use stealth and shadowstep. As for being on a team… I tend to roam because we tend to have 2-3 people on any given map at any given time. As for your reasons for me dying… great to see you over my shoulder…oh wait you’re not. A ranger can send his super fast pet across like half the map which can follow you through a stealth and shadowstep— instadown. I’m getting one shot since patch by classes that historically can’t do that, like ele’s, and necros.
try using marauder instead of zerker amulet
try using marauder instead of zerker amulet
^ yeah this
I do use stealth and shadowstep. As for being on a team… I tend to roam because we tend to have 2-3 people on any given map at any given time. As for your reasons for me dying… great to see you over my shoulder…oh wait you’re not. A ranger can send his super fast pet across like half the map which can follow you through a stealth and shadowstep— instadown. I’m getting one shot since patch by classes that historically can’t do that, like ele’s, and necros.
You aren’t intended to be one-shotted even by the ele’s themselves, those very strong skills are either to bait interrupts or zoning. If you see a lightning or fire overload field then try using shortbow from a distance especially autoattack and poison field. Hey, they wanted space from you so welcome to it. The previous doesn’t apply to earth overload however, which grants the ele a reflect and therefore projectile hate. A well played thief can still be a tough matchup for a tempest at least a dagger/focus mender’s one. Steal is an instant daze teleport so that’s a very important consideration while stealth by its very nature denies information of the thief’s location and staff, dagger, and sword skills from stealth are great. Both classes shouldn’t be caught dueling but it can happen in certain circumstances. I frequently roam and decap as a tempest because I find myself on teams that don’t know to decap nodes or over rotate and someone on the other team has the sense to try avoiding a fullcap for mine. I usually bail if I can’t make progress however, better to concede the node than die. I have better luck against dragonhunters, some druids, necros, and the occasional mesmer on tempest than other classes. I have defeated some warriors but I’ve seen some amazing warriors (even last season) that made me disengage as their management of defensive cooldowns was simply incredible.
Ahhh yeah. The typical oneshot-eles. kitten they are everywhere what should we do?
And of course the new super-smokescale with undodgeable attacks.
Finally: how do you get oneshotted by a necro? I admit, if you let them hit you with the wrong skill it will hurt, but you should survive if you disengage.
Do you facetank an entire soul spiral?
Find myself having to run away from fights way more often. Thief is more team dependent now. Engaging enemies is way more difficult now, seems like everyone can counter just about anything we can offer. Rangers are a major annoyance now. Dag-Pistol_DA/TR/DD
Desolation [EU] – Thief
(edited by Venomge.7142)
As much as people claim that the Thief is so survivable, the base Thief still lacks the necessary defenses to survive the gauntlet of attacks out there while still having enough damage output to be effective in a fight.
That’s why they say you’re doing it wrong if you die. It’s always the player’s fault for doing something wrong, never the profession’s shortcomings.
As for the one-shotting thing, it’s probably not actually a single shot doing it, but a quick succession of hits taking the Thief out.
I played this last ranked season for about a week, and I played a Berseker DA/CS/T Thief. Pure glass. I don’t know if I got one-shot even one time, though I did get insta-downed several times. And most of them would have been enough to put a Marauder Thief on his back. Though it was NEVER from another Thief, which I find quite ironic.
What is always fun is when you’re out of dodges, then you get pulled/sucked into a Guardian trap… especially when you’re on a different vertical level altogether.
There are ways to solve the Thief’s issues… or at least lessen them, but they don’t get implemented, sadly.
A
That’s why they say you’re doing it wrong if you die. It’s always the player’s fault for doing something wrong, never the profession’s shortcomings.
Considering computer code cannot make mistakes and its humans that are manipulating that code, yes I’d say it is going to be the human’s fault when things don’t work out well.
Fishsticks
Despite thief being buffed and several other meta classes being nerfed, it’s funny that we feel weaker. A big part of that seems to be because it’s sometimes become harder to maintain bloodlust stacks which could really carry us throughout a game against more defensive classes.
(edited by rennlc.7346)
Considering computer code cannot make mistakes and its humans that are manipulating that code, yes I’d say it is going to be the human’s fault when things don’t work out well.
Indeed, however, much of the blame belongs to the coder, not the player.
The code needs to be changed in such a way that the Thief player attains the ability to do things it cannot currently do. The player lacks the ability to do quite a lot at the moment, making it relatively inferior to other professions. Not only does it require more skill to play effectively, but even high skill itself does not grant the abilities needed to win in many cases.
If a player casually strolls in the middle of an AoE zergfest, yes, he deserves the blame. But there are many times when the Thief itself is the limitation, not the player.
(edited by Kageseigi.2150)
But there are many times when the Thief itself is the limitation, not the player.
Considering the variance of results when using the same tools, I’m inclined to say that its the userbase, not the creator, that needs to first improve. Good players will make classes look good, and bad players will make classes look bad. And then, there are those who just seem to mesh with one class better than the other. In no case is one class explicitly inferior to the other.
Fishsticks
But there are many times when the Thief itself is the limitation, not the player.
Considering the variance of results when using the same tools, I’m inclined to say that its the userbase, not the creator, that needs to first improve. Good players will make classes look good, and bad players will make classes look bad. And then, there are those who just seem to mesh with one class better than the other. In no case is one class explicitly inferior to the other.
This is the kind of post that would benefit from supporting arguments for your statements. If the thief class is not explicitly inferior at, for example, dueling for a side node than a condi mesmer, why does Sindrener, one of the best current thief players, never 1v1 them? Does he just not “mesh” with thief well enough to perform this task?
But when a Thief player’s skill is equal or greater to his opponent’s in a 1-on-1 situation, if the vast majority of outcomes is the Thief either being forced to run away or die, that should not be a tolerable circumstance.
Yes, players need to improve. That doesn’t mean that player improvement also improves the profession’s capabilities.
An expert driver may be able to pull off some ridiculous stunts with a Volkswagon Beetle, but compare that to an equally skilled driver in a Lamborghini Diablo.
If the Thief was so capable compared to other professions, why are there not more of them in the high-level competitions where the players are so great? And why are most Thief players considered bad? If a “bad” Thief player could move to any other given profession and perform better, then that doesn’t bode well for the Thief itself.
Does it take a different playstyle to be effective with a Thief? Yes. Does it take more “skill” to be effective with a Thief? For most builds, probably so. If great players can succeed with the Thief in the ways that very few can, does that mean the Thief is just fine as it is? I would not agree.
I keep going back to the game Ninja Gaiden. That has “Thief” playstyle written all over it. But as difficult as it may be, it gives the player all of the tools needed to win. The base Thief in this game, however, is still lacking such tools.
Have you tried to restart your router?
This is the kind of post that would benefit from supporting arguments for your statements. If the thief class is not explicitly inferior at, for example, dueling for a side node than a condi mesmer, why does Sindrener, one of the best current thief players, never 1v1 them? Does he just not “mesh” with thief well enough to perform this task?
While there is arguably an RPS presence between classes or even specs (a thought that I certainly agree with), it doesn’t mean that Rock is inherently inferior just because it loses to Paper. Rock also happens to beat Scissors. Also, because classes are classes and we aren’t all playing the same character, differences will exist. Thief is, honestly, quite poor at healing allies. However, the game is not designed around how well classes can heal their allies. Having deficiencies in one area does not preclude you from having strengths in another.
An expert driver may be able to pull off some ridiculous stunts with a Volkswagon Beetle, but compare that to an equally skilled driver in a Lamborghini Diablo.
The Beetle is/was the car of choice for Volkswagon rally. Rally cars are some of the best for pulling of stunts of most any variety, especially compared to the Diablo which is a terrible platform. I know what you were trying to say with your analogy, but that one really backfired
Fishsticks
While there is arguably an RPS presence between classes or even specs (a thought that I certainly agree with), it doesn’t mean that Rock is inherently inferior just because it loses to Paper. Rock also happens to beat Scissors. Also, because classes are classes and we aren’t all playing the same character, differences will exist. Thief is, honestly, quite poor at healing allies. However, the game is not designed around how well classes can heal their allies. Having deficiencies in one area does not preclude you from having strengths in another.
From this post you’ve gotten me really curious about what type of player and/or person I seem to be to you and what you estimate my current skill-level (or lack thereof) to be. I was curious enough to read through your post history and see if this, the dispensing of analogies and heuristics a parent might teach to their kid, is just the way you’ve learned to communicate with people online. Since it doesn’t seem to be, I wonder what makes us here in this thread such an exception. I wonder what makes you look at what I wrote and think “Okie dokie then! This guy should be educated on the concept of a trade-off!” rather than seeing me as someone who disagrees with general results of the current trade-offs the thief class is presently prescribed with. If you wish to truly educate me on something, here’s your chance!
(edited by rennlc.7346)
So, I recognize my tone in post will change based on mood. Since its no longer 6am and I’ve actually slept for a few hours, I probably have reverted to a more normal tone. (I was also watching a lot of youtube videos featuring british accents, so that might’ve help drive me to a more refined tone).
So when I look at balance, I look at it from as far away as possible when it comes to the game as a whole. I don’t really care to involve personal anecdote into factoring whether something should be changed or not. So, in the case of Sindrener or yourself, any perceived difficulties in using the class have no bearing on whether that class is balanced or not. Those are “you” problems, not “class” problems.
When you combine everything possible that a given class has to offer, and compare it to everything possible another class has to offer, they will be right close together. But, people don’t have access to everything a class has. There are trade-offs to be made, and costs for the opportunity to use certain features over another. This isn’t really new information.
A very present idea in MMO balance is the idea of balance within imbalance. In a healthy game, some options are just plain better than others. That’s not bad thing. Its partially what makes classes worthwhile and different. In a healthy game, what exactly is different will change periodically (balance updates and meta shifts). This keeps the game interesting, and the scramble to find the best combinations for yourself will prevent stagnation. If nothing in a game changed, the game would eventually devolve into a spreadsheet of the most optimal actions to perform at any given time. Certain builds would always beat some, and lose to others and there would be no variance.
Fortunately, this isn’t the case, and players still have the opportunity to explore the hidden interactions among the changing skillsets. And, because its up to the community to explore these factors, some of the more interesting interactions can be missed. For example, a long time ago Warriors were considered to be absolutely worthless in pvp. Anet made some changes in a big balance update, and still no one used warriors. After a few small, uninteresting tweaks to those changes and about a month, Warrior was suddenly on almost every pvp team. Hambow was born, and all it took was time for the community to discover the potential that that build had. So in many cases, patience with exploration will be a huge force in determining the perceived values of balance. Sometimes after a bigger update (like the one we just went through), time is needed for things to settle and roles to be reset. This again, doesn’t imply that there’s anything wrong with a class, just with how its being used and.or the requirements needed to succeed.
Balance updates don’t change much if there’s no experimentation among the community, and often that just needs time. A new powerhouse could evolve from these changes, and perhaps your spec, or another option which you perform well with, becomes the counter to that new threat. If someone insists on not adapting their play to the changes, then the only option they really have to perform better is increasing their personal skill, as opposed to relying on mechanical changes. So in summary, have patience, experiment, enhance your strengths and mitigate your weaknesses.
Fishsticks
I really enjoyed your post, Ghotistyx. I agree there are certainly illusionary balance issues which will be addressed through adaptations by the players. Hambow is an excellent example. The original D/P and S/D builds would also be examples of this kind of innovation. However, it seems you’re also assuming there’s something new waiting to be discovered that might address some of the issues thief players have been having. This is possible but not a certainty.
Similarly, you broke down the relationship between player experience and class balance as something more simple than it is. In other words, it’s not a “you” problem or a “class” problem as you put. It’s a “you” and “class” problem. I imagine part of the reason this forum is generally biased towards addressing the class problems is because those of us who do embrace the “you” part of our issues will be doing so in game instead of on here.
I hope you’ll come to understand that pleas for class improvements are not coming fully at the expense of trying new builds and becoming more skilled at using what’s currently available. This is just a part of a bigger pursuit for improvement and addressing the full “you” and “class” problem with both practice and promoting better balance.
(edited by rennlc.7346)
The problem with the thief after 3.5 years remains that they just do not have adequate damage mitigation for the way they are designed to play. They never have, and they still don’t. And nothing short of making some traits blatantly OP is going to change this. This is why as a Thief you are forced to maximize offense at all times in a desperate attempt to avoid facing the problem. This makes them appear to be OP to the majority of players who do not possess a high degree of skill in PvP and helps mask the fact that they actually have a lot of core design issues that have never been addressed.
They need some baseline changes to create room for experimentation and varied play. They either need to have higher base health and healing power, or to have their attrition improved in some other way that isn’t just “dodge moar”. Like, for example, having Stealth last longer and drop aggro (for PvE) and/or reducing the amount of damage you take.
(edited by Einlanzer.1627)
The problem with the thief after 3.5 years remains that they just do not have adequate damage mitigation for the way they are designed to play. They never have, and they still don’t. And nothing short of making some traits blatantly OP is going to change this. This is why as a Thief you are forced to maximize offense at all times in a desperate attempt to avoid facing the problem. This makes them appear to be OP to the majority of players who do not possess a high degree of skill in PvP and helps mask the fact that they actually have a lot of core design issues that have never been addressed.
They need some baseline changes to create room for experimentation and varied play. They either need to have higher base health and healing power, or to have their attrition improved in some other way that isn’t just “dodge moar”. Like, for example, having Stealth last longer and drop aggro (for PvE) and/or reducing the amount of damage you take.
You mean like resilience of shadows?
No. Our sustain is fine. Its exactly like it should be: We cant afford to eat a burst and have the tools necessary to avoid it.
And due to passive pressure we also cant afford to stick to enemies and thats also good. Imagine what damage a thief could do if being able to safely AA a target for a few seconds.
The only problem was not being able to get the job done and a couple of op builds that made us obsolete in most teams.
Its almost perfect now. We are not op, we are viable. We are hard to play and hard to counter. And we have a unique playstyle that doesnt evolve around spamming and rotation.
(Until the next op meta build comes along)
Two problems remain:
-Powercreep. Passive procs and noskillskills, but that affects all professions
-Build diversity. Also a problem all specs have but one they seem to be working at.
Our sustain is fine. Its exactly like it should be: We cant afford to eat a burst and have the tools necessary to avoid it.
Without Daredevil? If so, I can’t agree.
The problem is our sustain is not in balance with our combat effectiveness when compared to other professions. And that’s really what it all comes down to. So until other professions are brought down to the Thief’s level, the Thief needs to be taken up to theirs… one of those things needs to happen.
Sadly, without Shortbow #5, I don’t see why the Thief would ever be chosen in high-level play. And even with it, the Thief still doesn’t seem to be chosen much. If that doesn’t say something’s wrong, I don’t know what does.
Our sustain is fine. Its exactly like it should be: We cant afford to eat a burst and have the tools necessary to avoid it.
Without Daredevil? If so, I can’t agree.
The problem is our sustain is not in balance with our combat effectiveness when compared to other professions. And that’s really what it all comes down to. So until other professions are brought down to the Thief’s level, the Thief needs to be taken up to theirs… one of those things needs to happen.
Sadly, without Shortbow #5, I don’t see why the Thief would ever be chosen in high-level play. And even with it, the Thief still doesn’t seem to be chosen much. If that doesn’t say something’s wrong, I don’t know what does.
Precisely.
But what exactly do you want? Do you want to facetank a precision strike? Do you want to stay in a teamfight?
And of course we are mostly wanted for our shortbow. And they only want ele for elemental bastion.
Our mobility is a unique combat asset, the only one to come close is mesmer. Would you rather have a better place in the meta by becoming a boonbot?
And talking about shortbow 5. As long as infiltrators arrow is in the game we cant be allowed to win duels.
This skill alone enables us to be literally anywhere we want, enforce only the combat scenarios we want and lets us reset every fight on demand.
You cant really buff the thief without taking this skill from us.
You can either have a combat class that can be outplayed…or a non-combat class that outplays you. (pretty much the main problem with chronophantasma build)
Two lists
Desireable classes
Elementalist=Mesmer=Revenant>Ranger=Thief=Engi=Guard>Warrior(only until they figure out the meta)=Necro
1vThief
Guard,Engi>Thief=Warrior, Mesmer, Revenant, Ranger>Elementalist, Necro
The last two seasons we were obviously underpowered. But not anymore. We have at least a fair chance for most duels and, tho we miss teamfighting capability, we can make up for that by speed and rotation.
The spot we are in is almost perfect. All we lack is build diversity.
All in all inter-class balance is very good right now, if there wasnt the powercreep, the game was almost perfect.
Some slightly overtuned builds like healbot ele, chronophantasma mesmer and power shiro.
Some bad distribution like ele being the healer and guard the dd.
But all in all its ok. The game is playable for now.
And do you know what class im most afraid of to see on the enemy team? A thief. Because I know a good thief is the only thing to effectively counter me.
Here is my issue with thief “buffs” in HoT: most of they just help us to kill each other (thieves) faster but didn’t really improve our standing vs other classes at all. We don’t need dmg buffs, we need ways to deal with moronic passives/blocks/invuls and condi spam that Anet handled other classes like candy.
All is Vain~
[Teef] guild :>
[Teef] guild :>
But what exactly do you want?
we need ways to deal with moronic passives/blocks/invuls and condi spam that Anet handled other classes like candy.
Because I know a good thief is the only thing to effectively counter me.
thief “buffs” in HoT: most of they just help us to kill each other (thieves) faster but didn’t really improve our standing vs other classes at all.
I think those quotes say something. As to what I personally want, I want the ability to fight effectively against a non-Thief on point in PvP. Or at least the option to build for it.
Mobility is great. But PvP isn’t like WvW. The space is limited. Mobility doesn’t do you any good when there’s nowhere to go. And there’s not always somewhere to go when you’re not with a coordinated team. Depending on the map, other professions can be nearly as fast as Thieves.
The Thief needs a decent shot at being able to dislodge a lone opponent from a point. The Thief is already a single-target fighter. It just needs to be more effective. Again, mobility allows us to engage on our terms, but it doesn’t make us better killers.
I still do not understand things sometimes, though. Even when I run with a full glass Thief (Zerker DA/CS/T), other Thieves STILL cannot burst me down even when they catch me by complete surprise. They may eventually win the fight, but I am always able to extend it. Whatever their skill level may be, if a Thief can’t burst down a glass Thief, what can it hope to do to others?
Whether the Thief is lacking or other professions are overpowered, I don’t know. Daredevil surely helps, but not the base Thief, unfortunately.