Guild Wars 2

Hey, someone posted in my thread, and didnt read everything.

You cant use the EP on the site to determine which set is better because the number it spits out is wrong for my set. It cant account for omnomberry pies damage from life steal or from the fire sigil you removed. But seriously, if you copy the use of a ruby orb and the curry from your build
http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/thief/?7.0|8.1p.h2.8.1p.a7|c.1p.h2.8.1p.h17|1c.71j.1g.71j.1c.71j.1g.71j.1c.71j.1g.71j|2s.d13.2s.d13.3s.d17.3s.d17.2s.d13.2s.d13|0.u36c.u56b.a1.0|39.1|57.5c.5b.5h.0|e
The EP of the Fall set goes above yours while also maintaining 1k more EHP.

A.2.64/2.62=1.00763358779
B.0.76*.75=0.57
C.(2221+250+(6*35))/(2201+250+(6*35))=1.00751597144
D.0.75+0.57=1.32

EDIT:
Thought I should maybe explain the above numbers.
A.newcritdamage/oldcritdamage=1.XXYYY
new crit damage=base crit damage+added crit damage from gear+additional crit damage from ruby orb
old crit damage=base crit damage + added crit damage from gear
XX.YYY= % damage increase with 100% crit chance
B.X.YYY* critchance= % damage increase.
With 50% crit chance out of stealth, 100% in stealth, and backstab doing 50% of our total damage, that means we can add .5 and 1.0 and divide by 2 to reach .75 as our average crit chance.
C.(new power+ bloodlust stacks+ (35*average might stacks))/(old power+ bloodlust stacks+ (35* average might stacks)=1.XXYYY
new power = base power+20 additional from ruby orb
old power = base power
XX.YYY= % damage increase from the power given by ruby orb
D. Add the two % damage modifiers together to find the total damage increase

Also, the Ruby Orb instead of fire sigil is a damage increase of 1.32% on every hit. If fire sigil procs once every 5-6 seconds for 1k~ damage, that means you need to be doing something ridiculous like 75,000 damage every 5-6 seconds for ruby orb to keep up with the DPS provided by fire sigil. Thats also if the fire sigil only hits one target… you can double the 75k for every additional target.

Im not entirely sure how you use 1.32% and 1000 to find the number 75,000~, I can just look at 1k and 1.32% and know its 75k~ and reverse check it to see that 75,000*0.0132=990 so I know Im right.

If youre not going to use sigil of fire or air in your offhand you should be using force and accuracy, because you cant use 2x sigil of force, or stack air and fire, and force does more damage than accuracy.

But ya, this is a brief demonstration of why we’re not using the EP on that site to determine what does the most damage anymore, because you cant once you start talking about adding in things it can no longer handle, like omnomberry pies.

Wish, dude, I appreciate you publishing your theorycrafting and math as much as the next guy, but you don’t have to be such a tool to people offering an alternative and wanting to join the discussion. So he didn’t read the entire thread, big deal, you could have just pointed him to the post before proceeding to give him the thorough details.

Gonna post this in this thread:

wish.1027:

Power increase:
(oldpower + addedpower) / (oldpower) =1.XXYYYY
XX.YYY%= %damage increase

Crit damage increase:
(1.5 + oldcritdamage + addedcritdamage) / (1.5 + oldcritdamage) =1.XXYYY
XX.YYY * .critrate = %damage increase

Precision increase:
21 precision = +1% Crit chance at level 80.
Added Precision / 21 = X.YYY
X = addedcritchance
(1 + ((.5 + critdamage) * (oldcritchance + addedcritchance))) / (1 + (.5 + critdamage) * oldcritchance) =1.XXYYY
XX.YYY= %damage increase

These are the formulas for determining damage increases gained from adding power or precision or crit damage to your build.

Example:
Comparing damage gains on two pieces of gear, like for instance a Knights body vs a Valkyrie body. What you do is remove your body, and use all your regular food buffs. Then write down your power, precision and crit chance. Then use the following formulas to determine the increases each one would offer. (Im using Knights vs Valk because it makes me use all 3 formulas)
Knights Body: 101 Toughness, 72 Power, 72 Precision
Valkyrie Body: 101 Power, 72 Vitality, 5% Crit damage

For knights we will have to check the Power and Precision increases, and for Valk we have to check Power and Crit damage. Im going to just use my thieves current stats, which are 1910 Power, 50% crit chance and 74% crit damage without a body armor on.

Knights Power Increase:
We’ll simply copy the formula, insert our stats, and then google it and google calculator will give us the answer.
(oldpower+ addedpower)/ (oldpower)=1.XXYYYY
XX.YYY%= damage increase
(1910+ 72)/ (1910)=1.03769633508
So a Knights Bodys 72 power is worth 3.7696 damage to us.

Knights Precision Increase:
21 precision = 1% Crit chance at level 80.
(1 ((.5+ critdamage)* (oldcritchance+ addedcritchance)))/ (1+ (.5+ critdamage)* oldcritchance)=1.XXYYY
XX.YYY= damage increase
72/21=3.42857142857 72 precision is worth 3 crit chance.
Of course if you actually do this, youll want to min/max your precision using infusions/other gear to hit an exact value so you dont lose 10 stats (the .42857~) like we’re doing in this example.
(1+ ((.5+ .74)* (.5+ .03)))/ (1+ (.5+ .74)*.5)=1.02296296296
So a Knights Bodys 72 Precision is worth 2.2962% damage to us.

Or, lets say we’re 2 precision over exactly 50%, and we have 6 power infusions. What we can do is swap 2 of those power infusions to precisions giving us + 10 precision, plus our 2 extra we have currently, giving us 10 + 2+ 72=84
84/21=4
(1+ ((.5+ .74)* (.5+ .04)))/ (1+ (.5+ .74)* .5)=1.03061728395
If we do this, our gained precision is worth 3.061% damage, almost 1% more. But we did lose 10 power, so we have to re-solve for that by simply subtracting 10 in the first half of the problem:
(1910+ 72- 10)/ (1910)=1.03246073298
So now our power increase is worth 3.246% damage instead of 3.769%

Knights without exact Precision:
3.76+ 2.29=6.05
Knights body gives us a 6.05% damage increase total.

Knights with Exact Precision:
3.24+ 3.06=6.3
In this Knights set we get a 6.3% damage increase total.
Fixing our Precision value to hit an exact number gave us a larger damage increase than not doing it, even though we sacrificed 10 power, which just goes to show you how important doing this is, theres no half % crit chance values in this game. It’s +1% or its +0%.

Valkyrie Power Increase:
(oldpower+ addedpower)/ (oldpower)=1.XXYYYY
XX.YYY%= damage increase
(1910+ 101)/ (1910)=1.05287958115
So a Valkyrie Bodys Power is worth 5.287 damage to us.

Valkyrie Crit Damage Increase:
(1.5+ oldcritdamage+ addedcritdamage)/ (1.5+ oldcritdamage)=1.XXYYY
XX.YYY*critrate= damage increase
(1.5+ .74+ .05)/ (1.5+ .74)=1.02232142857
2.232142857*.5=1.1160714285
So a Valkyrie Bodys +5 Crit Damage is worth 1.116% damage to us.

5.28+ 1.11=6.39
Valkyrie Body gives us a 6.39% damage increase total.

Apparently my above post is to long, so Im moving this down.

Incurafy.6329:

Wish, dude, I appreciate you publishing your theorycrafting and math as much as the next guy, but you don’t have to be such a tool to people offering an alternative and wanting to join the discussion. So he didn’t read the entire thread, big deal, you could have just pointed him to the post before proceeding to give him the thorough details.

Incurafy, dude, you need to stop taking things as insults that are not. If I was insulting HappyHour.6241 I would of called him names and said he was dumb. If someone says X is better than Y when it is not, Im simply going to correct them, and explain why. Treating them like theyre 5 and Im their parent and trying to use nice words to tell them theyre wrong isnt required and its insulting to their intelligence, which they proved they have by looking for solutions (not using divinity runes and wanting better results) and doing well by actually coming up with something. If he continued to proclaim the awesomeness of ruby orbs I would begin to berate him (like someone else I got tired of talking to) and then youd have something to condemn me for, but they deserve to have it explained why theyre wrong without acting like theyre a stupid child who cant take being told theyre wrong. If you cant take simple statements of fact, please stop reading anything I type, because Im never going to sugar coat it to appease people who are overly PC.

Anyway, I was totally productive enough for today for GW2, back to Pokemon White 2 and making my shiny Umbreon super awesome! …when it eventually evolves, lol.

I don’t think you have to sugar coat anything, but instead of saying, “Oh look, someone just posted without reading anything”, it would have taken less effort to just go on with correcting him as you did afterwards.

I’m not trying to start an argument with you, so I’ll leave it at that, I just wish people wouldn’t be unnecessarily snappy.

For optimizing stats, have you considered swapping out the helm for a “celestial” helm?

The celestial helm has 3% crit damage instead of the 2% you find in valk/bers gear, allowing much better offensive/defensive stat ratio:

normal stats for helm
45
32
32/2% crit
1:16 ratio

celestial stats
20 (all)
3% crit

You lose 25 power, but gain 3% crit. If we take 3% of an average 3000 attack power, we get 90 extra power from this (45 because of 50% crit chance, still more than the 25 we lost).

We also gain 20 prec to add another point of crit chance (assuming there was ANY leftover wasted precision elsewhere), and get to keep 20 vit+tough (12 less than soldier).

The measly healing and condition damage is wasted, but only looking at the four stats above, it could still be worthwhile.

EDIT: The pants and coat also have greater crit damage for celestial (4% for celestial pants and 6% for celestial coat) but I’m pretty sure you lose too much power for this to be viable.

LazyKobolds.2301:

For optimizing stats, have you considered swapping out the helm for a “celestial” helm?

I made an entire thread about Celestial gear.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Celestial-Armor/first#post2424729

The results of the math in the thread show that Celestial is terrible. But just so its here too…

LazyKobolds.2301:

normal stats for helm
45
32
32/2% crit
1:16 ratio

celestial stats
20 (all)
3% crit

You lose 25 power, but gain 3% crit. If we take 3% of an average 3000 attack power, we get 90 extra power from this (45 because of 50% crit chance, still more than the 25 we lost).

We also gain 20 prec to add another point of crit chance (assuming there was ANY leftover wasted precision elsewhere), and get to keep 20 vit+tough (12 less than soldier).

First: Attack means absolutely nothing. Dont be thinking 3000 attack is awesome. Only your power matters for damage calculations. When totaling damage its weapondamage * power, not weapondamage + power, which is what attack is.

Now, we’ll use my Mug build, because it has exactly 1 wasted precision, and has higher Power and lower Crit damage than the other set, so it will work into Celestials favor more than the Fall set. Screenshot of the stats with food and without bloodlust or any boons up will be at the bottom.

2166 power (soldiers hat)
1915 precision (1 over 52% crit chance)
92% Crit Damage.

Soldiers Hat
(2166+ 250+ (6* 35))* ((1* .48)+ ((1.5+ .92)* .52))=4565.0384

Celestial Hat 53% Crit chance (this is what youre suggesting happens, but it doesnt)
(2166- 25+ 250+ (6* 35))* ((1* .47)+ ((1.5 +.95) *.53))=4599.8685

The problem here is our toughness and vitality and master maintenance oils precision gains:
Soldiers hat
1556* (60/1024)=91.171875
1368* (40/1024)=53.4375
Celestial hat
(1556- 12)* (60/1024)=90.46875
(1368- 12)* (40/1024)=52.96875

We’re losing at least 1 precision (depending on when the game deals with remainders and how, its one or two lost precision) from the loss of 12 Toughness and 12 Vit, so we have to dump one of the 6 power infusions for 1 precision infusion to gain the 1% Crit chance, otherwise we end up with this:
Celestial hat 52% Crit chance
(2166- 25+ 250+ (6* 35))* ((1* .48)+ ((1.5+ .95) *.52))=4562.154
Which is lower damage than the Soldiers hat.

Celestial hat 53% Crit chance, -1 power infusion +1 precision infusion
(2166- 25- 5+ 250+ (6* 35))* ((1* .47)+ ((1.5+ .95)* .53))=4591.026

Now, lets look at the DPS increase.
4591.026/4565.0384=1.0056927451
0.57% damage for 24 stats swapping to Celestial hat and 1 Precision infusion.

The correct spot to swap out for more offensive stats next is weapons. So lets swap a weapon from Soldiers to Berserker, 64 toughness/Vit for 64 precision 5% Crit damage.

Soldiers Hat
(2166+ 250+ (6* 35))* ((1* .48)+ ((1.5+ .92)* .52))=4565.0384

Swapping in 1 berserker weapon.
Oil:
(1556- 64)* (60/1024)=87.421875
(1368- 64)* (40/1024)=50.9375
We’re losing 5 precision from our oils, and gaining 64 from the weapon
64/21=3, with 1 stat point left over.
So we’re going to have to make a -1 power infusion +1 precision infusion here too, and gain 3% crit chance.

(2166- 5+ 250+ (6* 35))* ((1* .45)+ ((1.5+ .92+ .05)* .55))=4740.0785
4740.0785/4565.0384=1.0383436205
Here we gained 3.83% damage for 128 stats.

To determine how much each defensive stat is worth in damage output in both examples we simply divide
Berserker dagger
3.83/128=
0.029921875% damage per point of defense
Celestial hat
0.57/24=
0.02375% damage per point of defense

This is the argument against a single piece of Celestial gear that seems to increase DPS. Sure, it increases DPS, but it costs more defensive stats to do than other choices you could be making, which makes it bad. Those defensive stats youre giving up are worth more than the damage youre gaining. I dont know how to explain it better than this, so i hope you get it. Not only that, but if youre not able to figure out your exact precision you’ll end up with worse damage output than if you left the Soldiers hat on, since it definitely does not raise your crit rate by 1% all on its own.

wish.1027:

…(like someone else I got tired of talking to)…

I’m going to pretend I didn’t read this bit.

So uhm, Wish, which one is your final gear set up? There was so many build links, and most were posted about 1 month ago.

paleeshi.1924:

So uhm, Wish, which one is your final gear set up? There was so many build links, and most were posted about 1 month ago.

Wish’s Mug, 10/30/30/0/0
with accurate corrected precision

Wish’s Fall, 0/30/30/10/0
with accurate corrected precision

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Post-Your-Build-Thread/page/3#post2426220

Wish,

What is your strategy for facing condition builds with your Mug build? You lack a lot of condition removal with that build. Is the key, kill them before they get too many conditions off?

Have you thought about Hoelbrak Runes + Lemongrass?

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

Wish,

What is your strategy for facing condition builds with your Mug build? You lack a lot of condition removal with that build. Is the key, kill them before they get too many conditions off?

Have you thought about Hoelbrak Runes + Lemongrass?

Depends what class it is. If youre talking about bleed thieves, you always stealth after they do, so their from stealth attack doesnt hit you. And use the sword to chip down their HP to 50%, then burst them down with D/D. They will get use to your sword damage and think you dont hurt that much, so you can surprise them and drop them when you switch, let them get a from stealth attack off at this point though so they have revealed. Also, Ive never had the shadow return on sword not remove bleed, and you can basically remove 80% of their damage with just that.

For necros, lots of kiting, and if theyre very good, its best to just walk away from them. While you can win, if theyre very good it will take a really long time, and isnt worth the effort. Knowing when to use your dodges is important too. Like for Necros, if theres a glowy green line connecting the two of you, you need to dodge roll 2-3 seconds after it appears, or use shadowstep when you get feared if you get bound and cant dodge roll. You shouldnt run across a glowy green line on the ground, and always dodge roll into marks on the ground when they stack a bunch of them, which they tend to do when you stealth. They think if they put all their marks on the ground and stand there youll die if you get close. Also, you need to avoid the circles with lots of black in them that dont go away when you step on them. If you stand in those you die. When they go all “Im a black cloud of death” just walk away from them. If you have trouble walking away from them, use dagger 4 and shadow return. Save bask venom (or thieves guilds) and steal for after they waste their move that grants them an extra green HP bar, and after the transformation move they use, when these 2 things are down you can actually kill them. While theyre up youre just feeding them if youre close to them. You also need to watch for weakness, and try to avoid attacking them when you have it on.

For condition Warriors… Use steal ASAP so you get their spinny whirlwind attack thing like Barbarian in Diablo 2. This reflects projectiles, and condition warriors use sword/shiled and bow 99% of the time. The attack you want to avoid is the one that does a heavy bleed and bind. If you can avoid that attack from the bow, and know to run away when he shoots fireballs (which are ground targeted) you’ll pretty much be fine. 99% of warriors will use the bind attack immediately when they swap to bow, so they can hit you with the other attacks easily. When this happens you need to hit the F1 skill you stole because it pretty much ruins their day. If it happens as youre running to the warrior the first time, use steal to get next to him and use CnD so he cant hit you with anything but the #3 ground targeted fireball thing. The only other thing you need to avoid is the sword F1 skill. Which binds and sticks you with like 15 stacks of bleed. If you get hit with that, use your shadowstep to get away. If you dont have it up, swap to sword, and hit 2 twice right as it ends to remove the bleeds. But you should be able to kill him before he gets that move twice, so shadowstep should always be up. The thing to know there is that the first attack has the bind, and the other attacks add more bleeding, so simply shadowstep away, and if you have a bunch of conditions on you, shadow return when its animation is done.

I dont think theres any other condition based classes you need to care about honestly, and I’ll see if I can find some video of me fighting these to help you out.
Im uploading a video of a necro that shows the green lines and what happens when you dont dodge it, and also me wasting all his cooldowns then killing him. The dodge roll after I downed him was because I expected him to use the downed fear on me and I was aiming shadow refugee.
http://youtu.be/HgE5BJs0MQI
I dont think I have any video of the other classes, so if anyone wants to duel me on them, let me know, and then I can post video of that too. My thief is on gate of madness though, so you need to be fighting that server.

As for other runes, I have a set of Soldiers gear with Melandru runes, and one with Lyssa runes. I use the Lyssas when Im playing double S/D, Melandrus I just have to have. For D/D+S/D I dont really have issues with conditions even if I run into a condition specced class, which is rare anyway, the whole meta of both servers Im on has shifted around mitigating conditions because of how overbuffed Necro got. So as a consequence, theres barely any condition specced people to fight. I have been noticing more P/D thieves when I log in, but theyve all been really bad.

Lets see.. divinity.. so 100 gold right there.. and full ascended trinkets.. thats hours of farming right there…
Ill stick with my ruby orbs and exotic trinkets. thanks

Hi, new rogue here and Ive got a quick question about the EHP vs. actual health pool. It looks like a lot of these builds have ~15000 hps so where does the extra health come from to determine this ~21000 EHP?

Hey Wish, hope you are still updating this awesome thread. Do the new sigils/runes have any effect you reckon?

Mainly thinking the +6% critical damage (when they fix the bug on it) being a rather interesting number crunching exercise.

Avasar.9586:

Hi, new rogue here and Ive got a quick question about the EHP vs. actual health pool. It looks like a lot of these builds have ~15000 hps so where does the extra health come from to determine this ~21000 EHP?

The extra health comes from your toughness. EHP is the total damage you can take counting your Armor (defense+toughness) and and HP.

Effective Health (EHP)= (Health * Armor)/(Reference Armor)

Damage Reduction (DR)= (Armor – Reference Armor)/Armor

The reference armor used for both calculations is 1836, the lowest base defense for a fully exotic equipped level 80 character.

Wolfield.9812:

Hey Wish, hope you are still updating this awesome thread. Do the new sigils/runes have any effect you reckon?

Mainly thinking the +6% critical damage (when they fix the bug on it) being a rather interesting number crunching exercise.

I dont know the stats on the new runes, or that they added new runes, lulz, could you tell me what they are? (I was serious when I talked about my current Pokemon addiction, I got 5 games to play! platinum, black, white, black 2, white 2, and soon X and Y!)

Two new condition damage rune sets. Torment and Confusion based. So no use to this thread.

Celestial armour stats have now been released but are massively timegated.

Two new sigils which are bugged atm. Both give +6% condition duration. One is called Sigil of Bursting which we reckon is meant to give +6% critical damage. So when it is fixed would be interesting.

Sigil of force +5% attack should give more damage than +6% critical damage, but with the 100% critical chance would be interesting. Also would it be better to have a sigil of force and a sigil of bursting, or air/fire still the higher dps.

I know how you like to look at numbers, so thought you would find it fun. Enjoy your break, and Pokemon addiction

Wolfield.9812:

Two new sigils which are bugged atm. Both give +6% condition duration. One is called Sigil of Bursting which we reckon is meant to give +6% critical damage. So when it is fixed would be interesting.

Sigil of force +5% attack should give more damage than +6% critical damage, but with the 100% critical chance would be interesting. Also would it be better to have a sigil of force and a sigil of bursting, or air/fire still the higher dps.

It will be Fire/Air > Force (5% damage) > Accuracy (5% crit chance) > whatever with 6% crit damage.

Accuracy can be better than force depending on what you gain from critical hits though. Like my Guardian will use Acc because I get Vigor on Crits and I have a low crit chance, so the damage isnt that much worse.

For a crit damage sigil to keep up with Force on Thief, it would seriously have to give more than 20% Crit damage. Earlier in this thread I showed how 5% crit damage is basically 1% damage for your average thief, so ya, 20% crit damage or more required.

Wolfield.9812:

I know how you like to look at numbers, so thought you would find it fun. Enjoy your break, and Pokemon addiction

Saddly, no math is required. 6% Crit damage isnt anywhere near enough to even be in contention. But it’s ok, Ive been back to playing the worst game ever that I wish was fun… because nekomimis are the greatest things E V A R. But seriously, my mithra is even cuter now with the new character creation options… I just wish it was more fun to play her. Have I said I wish this game was fun yet? Effing Square Enix… back to Pokemon and WvW for a week til early access starts now that open Beta is over.

Wish, how do the WvW buffs such as Applied Fortitude and Guard Leech affect the build? If you had to choose one, which would you get? If you had both, would you change any of the gear?

AiKitecT.1897:

Wish, how do the WvW buffs such as Applied Fortitude and Guard Leech affect the build? If you had to choose one, which would you get? If you had both, would you change any of the gear?

Applied fortitude is best if you never play with any siege, but its effect should be ignored, just like how you dont build around the +% HP from the WvW points buff. If you notice with the combination of the two you have a ridiculous amount of extra HP, feel free to swap a weapon to berserker though.

So, are you guys looking forward to the new ascended gear? Im gonna remake this thread when I see stats and dont have stuff to do, even though Im not really playing GW2. lol

i will go pure glass cannon zerk on my DD + ascended set! imagine the CND+Steal+BS on that baby.

What about the new Rune of the Travelers? Thoughts?

AiKitecT.1897:

What about the new Rune of the Travelers? Thoughts?

Movement speed is pretty much always the best stat for everything ever.

The blinding powder trait is probably superior to 30 all stats and 6% crit damage. Thats like -2.5% damage and -2%~ Defense, I dont even care about boon duration or the other thing the rune does.

When ascended armor comes out, you could probably pick up a bit of damage and EHP just using ascended versions of the existing exotic armor while adding these runes to it and it would be amazing.

Used it. Is amazing. Personally i took scorpion wire, for an extra backstab combo which works well since most people can’t stun break the venom then the wire.

Boon duration is also good, with might in stealth normally hold on to 11 might stacks for the backstab hit, which is more than i was able to reliable do before.

Traveler used, and very satisfied. In party you get another target reset on your nonstealthers.

Nice!!!

So let’s say that I had the Applied Fortitute which gives +250 vitality. What do you think about the following?

Berserker Weapons – +5 Power Infusion
Ascended Armor – Rune of the Travelers
Berserker Trinkets – +15 Power, +15 Precision

Switch the Master Maintenance Oil to Superior Sharpening Stone.

AiKitecT.1897:

So let’s say that I had the Applied Fortitute which gives +250 vitality. What do you think about the following?

Berserker Weapons – +5 Power Infusion
Ascended Armor – Rune of the Travelers
Berserker Trinkets – +15 Power, +15 Precision

Switch the Master Maintenance Oil to Superior Sharpening Stone.

I have no idea what youre asking, give me a full list of armor/traits/food/etc

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYEQRAoY8YlUmiO3ey5E/5Ey2jdqCJKuHGVS1UdFiKA-jUCBYfDiO5RZN7RQsMsIas6aYKXCRaXp2eTQ2gTZVKgyVGB-w

The weapons would have +5 Power Offensive Infusion, and you would get +250 vitality from Applied Fortitude.

AiKitecT.1897:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYEQRAoY8YlUmiO3ey5E/5Ey2jdqCJKuHGVS1UdFiKA-jUCBYfDiO5RZN7RQsMsIas6aYKXCRaXp2eTQ2gTZVKgyVGB-w

The weapons would have +5 Power Offensive Infusion, and you would get +250 vitality from Applied Fortitude.

Disclaimer:
You absolutely should not add or change any infusions you currently have or do not have for any reason. When Ascended armor comes out you will end up needing to change them, and as far as I understand, Ascended armor comes out very soon.

Now with that said, if you removed one of the precision infusions (You have 3) youd have exactly 50% crit rate, as 1872 = 50%. This is when using Stones.

(2462* 14925) /1836= 20013.8071895
(2462* (14925+ 2500)) /1836= 23366.2037037
This would be totally fine EHP wise to fit the original criteria (21.5k~ EHP) provided you had a few stacks up. When you hit 5 stacks you end up with 23,366.

2039 power
98% crit d
1872 precision
1398 toughness
1328 vit

oil/stone stats
1398 * (60/1024)= 81.9140625
1328 * (40/1024) = 51.875
82 + 52= 134

Stones/bloodlust/etc
(2039 + 250 + 134 + 10 + (35* 6)) * ((1 * .5) + (1.5 + .98) * .5)) =
4598.82

Crit chance from Oil
134/21=6.38095238095
(134 – 5)/21= 6.14285714286
(134 – 10)/21= 5.90476190476
(134 + 5)/21= 6.61904761905
(134 + 10)/21= 6.85714285714
(134 + 15)/21= 7.09523809524
(134 + 18 – 5)/21= 7

When we use oils, we will use 1 B/B Defensive slot ring or earring instead of B/V, and 1 precision infusion instead of 2, giving us exactly + 7% crit chance and moving us from exactly 50% to exactly 57%.

Oil/bloodlust/etc
(2039 + 250 + 15 + (35* 6)) * ((1 * .43) + (1.5 + .98) * .57))=
4634.8104

Oils win, before counting extra lifesteal from Candied Dragonrolls (Omnomberry pie)

So, with talk of wasting precision, have you tested whether or not GW2 rounds up true critical chance like it does on the character sheet?

Because if it does, there’s no real difference between 56.5% crit and 57% crit.

Ray.3780:

So, with talk of wasting precision, have you tested whether or not GW2 rounds up true critical chance like it does on the character sheet?

Because if it does, there’s no real difference between 56.5% crit and 57% crit.

Theres no parser for GW2 as far as I am aware, so no.

The fact that precision should be 21.16 for 1% crit chance at max level and its truncated to 21, and that when youre 20 precision over an exact number it doesnt show it as rounded up, is a good argument for critical hit rate being truncated as well.

Thanks for the awesome response, that’s really insightful (and for the whole thread). Why do you say that we will need to change infusions once the ascended armors come out?

Also, if you use Traveler’s Rune, which extra utility would you carry?

@ AiKitecT – he probably means you may need to rejig your stats (and hence infusions) to get an exact crit chance %. I don’t think new infusions will be out for a while, as much as I want to see something interesting and substantial.

@Wish – I’m not sure what you mean by the second part, as long as the calculated crit chance is x.5% or higher, it has always rounded up for me in the character sheet, but that could just be luck. Character sheet stats have always been ambiguous, but I think I’ll stick to maximizing my power stat with infusions.

AiKitecT.1897:

Thanks for the awesome response, that’s really insightful (and for the whole thread). Why do you say that we will need to change infusions once the ascended armors come out?

Because we dont know the stats on Ascended armor, or how many infusion slots we will pick. So we dont know what the best mix of precision/power infusions is going to be. So any infusions you add or change now might end up being changed again when the armor comes out and just be a waste of resources.

AiKitecT.1897:

Also, if you use Traveler’s Rune, which extra utility would you carry?

Blinding powder or Roll for Iniative probably.

Ray.3780:

@Wish – I’m not sure what you mean by the second part, as long as the calculated crit chance is x.5% or higher, it has always rounded up for me in the character sheet, but that could just be luck. Character sheet stats have always been ambiguous, but I think I’ll stick to maximizing my power stat with infusions.

What I mean is this:
When you have 1914 precision, the Character stats screen shows your crit chance at 52%. This disproves 21.16 being required for each point of precision, since it would require 1920~ precision to hit 52% if the .16 was left there. The other thing Im saying is that if you had 1934 precision, 1 under whats required to hit 53%, if the game did count that 20 extra precision youd be at like 52.95% crit chance, and it would probably display it as 53% or 52.95%, not the 52% you see in game. Plus every other game I paid attention to the math in everything was truncated.

@Wish – So that only happens at 20 over the previous percentage? I know it’s 21/% for some odd reason, but whenever I’ve had 11 or more over the previous percentage, my crit always rounds up, in fact, right now I’m at 2083 prec, and it’s showing 60% instead of 59% on my sheet. If you do the math, my true crit chance is ((2083-916)/21)+4, which is 59.57%.

And so what I’m saying is, if math WAS truncated, what reason, (besides it being a bug) would there be to show a rounded up value? wouldn’t they have just rounded it down all the time until you reach the next %?

Ray.3780:

@Wish – So that only happens at 20 over the previous percentage? I know it’s 21/% for some odd reason, but whenever I’ve had 11 or more over the previous percentage, my crit always rounds up, in fact, right now I’m at 2083 prec, and it’s showing 60% instead of 59% on my sheet. If you do the math, my true crit chance is ((2083-916)/21)+4, which is 59.57%.

It happens at all values between 1 and 20 above, also:

2093 precision is 61% crit chance
2072 precision is 60% crit chance

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Precision
At level 80, the base precision is 916, with a critical hit chance of 4%, at 927 precision, it becomes 5%.
At level 80, Critical Chance and Precision is found by the following formula:
Critical Chance = round down((precision – 822) / 21)

((2083 – 822) / 21) = 60.0476190476
Your crit chance should be 60%

Ray.3780:

And so what I’m saying is, if math WAS truncated, what reason, (besides it being a bug) would there be to show a rounded up value? wouldn’t they have just rounded it down all the time until you reach the next %?

They do round it down all the time, thats what Im saying. You just did the wrong math to determine what your crit chance should be.

Thinking about it, it could be that the values I was using to determine crit chance could be xx.51% crit chance, and that it does round on the character screen, since that would also put 21 numbers between each value. But even then, if it rounds in practice as well as on the displayed information, those 21 values are still what we want to hit. Here’s my handy list I keep in a notepad document.

2387 75
2366 74
2345 73
2324 72
2303 71
2282 70
2261 69
2240 68
2219 67
2198 66
2177 65
2156 64
2135 63
2114 62
2093 61
2072 60
2051 59
2030 58
2009 57
1988 56
1977 55
1956 54
1935 53
1914 52
1893 51
1872 50
1851 49
1830 48
1809 47
1788 46
1767 45
1746 44
1725 43
1704 42
1683 41
1662 40
1641 39
1620 38
1599 37
1578 36
1557 35
1536 34
1515 33
1494 32
1473 31
1452 30
1431 29
1410 28
1389 27

oh alright, base crit isn’t 4% exactly, weird.

I disagree with those builds.
30 SA won’t do much at all, especially when compared to the 1000+ EPower that you get from 25 in DA.
My typical D/D build is 25/30/15/x/x.
The defensive difference with a 30 SA build is little, but the damage increase is major.

25 DA is a static 15% dmg increase on top of 250 power bonus and a guaranteed Poison for 12+ sec on engage.
300hp/s while in stealth just doesn’t match the above.

It makes a huge difference for outnumbered or larger fights.

Red Falcon.8257:

I disagree with those builds.
30 SA won’t do much at all, especially when compared to the 1000+ EPower that you get from 25 in DA.

Except effective power doesnt mean anything.

Effective power = Weapon Damage + Power
Damage calculation in game = Weapon damage * Power

See the difference? Effective power is crap and shouldnt be used for anything except baseline comparisons between sets when the calculator on gw2buildcraft does it for you, unless the numbers are close, in which case it shouldnt be used at all. If you read this thread, thats why I moved away from using it to using actual damage calculations. I wasnt aware at first that it was bad, sorry for that.

But you are right, if you move toughness traits to power traits you do gain more damage, but you cant keep the 21.5k EHP the set is designed around. The problem I have with your suggestion is that the toughness traits are the best for long drawn out 1vX fights =/

Red Falcon.8257:

25 DA is a static 15% dmg increase

This is slightly misleading. The + 15% damage isnt worth 15% damage. Since youre adding to a whole, it gives diminishing returns, and you already have a lot of + % damage. Even with only like + 30% added damage base (easy to do on Thief) your 15% is worth
(1.3 + .15)/ 1.3=1.11538461538
11.5% damage.

Red Falcon.8257:

on top of 250 power bonus and a guaranteed Poison for 12+ sec on engage.
300hp/s while in stealth just doesn’t match the above.

It’s 150 power (I advise using mug), and its worth like
(2500+ 150)/ 2500= 1.06
6%~ damage. So its really not as amazing as you think it is, we didnt even talk about the might stacks you get from the 25 SA minor trait, which tends to keep 6 up, so youre really losing 60 power…

As for shadows embrace, its 350~ HP/sec in stealth, and assuming you spend about half your time in stealth, youre talking about gaining 2%~ of your EHP every second on average. Its actually pretty amazing, not to mention if youre good at timing the CnD blinds how much AOE mitigation that is, since the blind hits everyone around you.

hey wish, I’ve adopted your gear suggestions to the T and I must say I really notice the staying power and keeping up respectable damage. However, I’m curious behind your thoughts on how much you value toughness over vitality, no math needed, what is your first thought on how important it is to the thief and what would the final toughness rating you personally wouldnt go below?

I ask because I’m trying to learn sword dagger and taking the 30 points out of shadow arts for trickery or more points in acrobatics is losing alot of toughness and armour, I can only begin to make up for these lost points with full knights or soldiers gear. help?

jonwar.4186:

hey wish, I’ve adopted your gear suggestions to the T and I must say I really notice the staying power and keeping up respectable damage. However, I’m curious behind your thoughts on how much you value toughness over vitality, no math needed, what is your first thought on how important it is to the thief and what would the final toughness rating you personally wouldnt go below?

I ask because I’m trying to learn sword dagger and taking the 30 points out of shadow arts for trickery or more points in acrobatics is losing alot of toughness and armour, I can only begin to make up for these lost points with full knights or soldiers gear. help?

For Thief, its all about effective trades for defense, so you only use soldiers gear. You shouldnt worry about DR because your sustain is not amazing. DR is only super, super amazing if youre like say, a warrior using the regen signet that ticks for 500 hp/tick or whatever BS it is… lol.

Thiefs main form of survival is avoiding hits through stealth or dodge spam, this build is just setup so you can take that glass super buffed backstab or killshot, which for whatever reason seems to happen to me way to often when I play this game. So I wouldnt worry to much about DR vs HP (and in fact for thief I dont) and just look at EHP.

EHP = (Armor * HP) / 1836
Armor = Toughness + Defense
(Armor and HP are viewable on Character Screen)
DR = ( Armor -1836) / Armor

wish.1027:

jonwar.4186:

hey wish, I’ve adopted your gear suggestions to the T and I must say I really notice the staying power and keeping up respectable damage. However, I’m curious behind your thoughts on how much you value toughness over vitality, no math needed, what is your first thought on how important it is to the thief and what would the final toughness rating you personally wouldnt go below?

I ask because I’m trying to learn sword dagger and taking the 30 points out of shadow arts for trickery or more points in acrobatics is losing alot of toughness and armour, I can only begin to make up for these lost points with full knights or soldiers gear. help?

For Thief, its all about effective trades for defense, so you only use soldiers gear. You shouldnt worry about DR because your sustain is not amazing. DR is only super, super amazing if youre like say, a warrior using the regen signet that ticks for 500 hp/tick or whatever BS it is… lol.

Thiefs main form of survival is avoiding hits through stealth or dodge spam, this build is just setup so you can take that glass super buffed backstab or killshot, which for whatever reason seems to happen to me way to often when I play this game. So I wouldnt worry to much about DR vs HP (and in fact for thief I dont) and just look at EHP.

EHP = (Armor * HP) / 1836
Armor = Toughness + Defense
(Armor and HP are viewable on Character Screen)
DR = ( Armor -1836) / Armor

I’m curious how you (and other thieves) play in bigger group scenarios. I’ve watched Yishis’ videos but those are all from when stealth could be spammed and you didn’t have to wait the 3-4 seconds (w/e it is) before you’re able to re-enter again.

I find that in sPvP or bigger group situations in WvW it’s extremely easy for enemies to switch to me once I’m out of stealth and burn me down quickly before I’m able to stealth again. Of course throwing in dodges can keep you up for another stealth, but if you have no endurance/shadow step, it seems like an instagib.

in bigger groups play i just come from the sides and not with the group burst location as the whole dmg will be there and the bakline will focus the dmg on that spot.
i find it very easy to observe and picking up the back line without being focused until they see 3-5 members down and start locking around
when my group call for water field i jump back to heal myself if needed and all over again
with group fight the toughness is really not matter if you have 2200 or 2600 but more mobility skills evades and dodges

Vaux.7502:

I’m curious how you (and other thieves) play in bigger group scenarios.

I think the main idea when playing thief in WvW is to avoid larger groups…. If you want to play in a zerg, put on a shortbow to buff them and try to stay on the opponents backline instead of the blue dorito if you cant just switch to your Guardian. Anything else just tends to result in dieing a lot.

wish.1027:

Vaux.7502:

I’m curious how you (and other thieves) play in bigger group scenarios.

I think the main idea when playing thief in WvW is to avoid larger groups…. If you want to play in a zerg, put on a shortbow to buff them and try to stay on the opponents backline instead of the blue dorito if you cant just switch to your Guardian. Anything else just tends to result in dieing a lot.

That’s a saddening perspective on a thief. I love massive fights with my (no stealth) P/P, and being almost constantly within the fight, will usually be the last to die (if we wipe).

Although for a stealth-reliant melee thief, there probably isn’t much else to do. ;P Switch to short-bow, and slap-on a sign that says “kill me”.

Vaux.7502:

wish.1027:

jonwar.4186:

hey wish, I’ve adopted your gear suggestions to the T and I must say I really notice the staying power and keeping up respectable damage. However, I’m curious behind your thoughts on how much you value toughness over vitality, no math needed, what is your first thought on how important it is to the thief and what would the final toughness rating you personally wouldnt go below?

I ask because I’m trying to learn sword dagger and taking the 30 points out of shadow arts for trickery or more points in acrobatics is losing alot of toughness and armour, I can only begin to make up for these lost points with full knights or soldiers gear. help?

For Thief, its all about effective trades for defense, so you only use soldiers gear. You shouldnt worry about DR because your sustain is not amazing. DR is only super, super amazing if youre like say, a warrior using the regen signet that ticks for 500 hp/tick or whatever BS it is… lol.

Thiefs main form of survival is avoiding hits through stealth or dodge spam, this build is just setup so you can take that glass super buffed backstab or killshot, which for whatever reason seems to happen to me way to often when I play this game. So I wouldnt worry to much about DR vs HP (and in fact for thief I dont) and just look at EHP.

EHP = (Armor * HP) / 1836
Armor = Toughness + Defense
(Armor and HP are viewable on Character Screen)
DR = ( Armor -1836) / Armor

I’m curious how you (and other thieves) play in bigger group scenarios. I’ve watched Yishis’ videos but those are all from when stealth could be spammed and you didn’t have to wait the 3-4 seconds (w/e it is) before you’re able to re-enter again.

I find that in sPvP or bigger group situations in WvW it’s extremely easy for enemies to switch to me once I’m out of stealth and burn me down quickly before I’m able to stealth again. Of course throwing in dodges can keep you up for another stealth, but if you have no endurance/shadow step, it seems like an instagib.

Stealth never worked that way. Once you attack from stealth u get 3 s revealed. Thats how it is, thats how its been. On older Yishis videos culling was still in effect, meaning thiefs ior any other class didnt render fast enough after they left stealth, sometimes making illusion of being stealthed all the time (from opponents eyes, not from thief). You can clearly see that from old thief videos when culling was still affecting www.

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/thief/?7.0|8.5c.h2.8.5c.h14.d13.0.d13|5.5c.h4.d13.0.0|1p.7e.1c.7e.1p.7e.1c.7e.1p.7e.1c.7e|2v.d13.2v.d13.3v.d19.2v.d13.3v.d19.2s.d13|a3.u13c.u45b.0.0|6f.1|57.5e.5c.5b.0|e

what do you guys think about this build?
Effective Power 5089.83
Effective Health (EHP) 23505