Guild Wars 2

Going to write this in my downtime since it seems so many people are having trouble with the class. I’ll start with staff and go into D/P after. Feel free to ask specific questions on match-ups or further opinions if what I provide doesn’t cover questions.

A little background. I no-lifed the game for a few years as I went to community college. I formed the team SYNC which took 2nd at the 2013 PAX invitational. I co-founded The Abjured with Noscoc and stepped off the team due to school and disagreements about roster changes.

Both builds can be found on my twitch page twitch.tv/narcarsis. Runes are largely up to choice. I prefer Daredevil runes on staff, and Scholar/Pack on D/P while swapping to Svanir against Necro heavy/centric teams. Air/Fire on melee sets (Fire over Blood because it’s affected by percentage modifiers such as Bound, Havoc, and Staff Master while Blood is not

I think staff is the strongest weapon set at the moment, it has a lot more staying power than both S/D and D/P with Staff Master. The auto attacks are on par with dagger and have a fluid/snappy response time in comparison with sword autos. Weakening Charge has good damage but leaves you vulnerable as you can’t evade during the cast time – it’s the ability I use the least. Debilitating Arc is extremely good for avoiding immobilize/burst combos and the main use for the skill – it’s good at baiting burst. Dust Strike is one of the best abilities; against running enemies it can hit twice, does good damage, can proc sigils, and is a fast blind. Vault is the main damage and utility skills. It’s a hard hitting skill, small evade, and extremely useful for navigating terrain to kite on side nodes (mine, henge, quarry, waterfall). It’s also extremely good cleave on downed bodies, asking with auto attacks and bound. Overall the weapon set flows well and rivals D/P in that aspect.

Havoc ties in nicely with Bound and all melee burst. You already have access to weakness and Impact Strike is on a low enough cool-down that you can avoid the cool-down reduction.
Staff Master makes staff what it is. The damage modifier is good by itself but the endurance regen boosts the weapon’s viability immensely. It increases both evade uptime and damage uptime (Bound). I do not think Absolutist’s Resolution is a good trait, as having condition clear dependant on an enemy will get you killed in high level play. Opponents will stop attacking you after a successful condition bomb, and you will end up falling over faster than you can clear damaging conditions against players who know how to cover their conditions (condition clear is last in, first out). Pulmonary Impact isn’t useful on staff as you won’t be focusing on interrupts.
Bound is, in my opinion, the best option for your dodge. Lotus is annoying for people to deal with and procs sigils, but not optimal and doesn’t make use of the percentage modifier. Dash, while good, is ironically easily kited by good players. The dodge will often over-shoot you past your opponent who can about-face as soon as you begin the dodge. Bound on the other hand not only boosts your damage but does a good bit itself. It’s good pressure in fights as you avoid the damage being thrown around.
Deadly Arts traits are fairly straightforward, and I’ll quickly explain Improvisation versus Executioner. Improvisation provides far more utility than any other trait for Thief (and possibly in the game). Double steal and the instant cool-down reset together make Improvisation more than enough take over the damage bonus from Executioner.
In trickery you have the choice between Thrill of the Crime and Flanking Strikes. I prefer the haste and you can often find fury from teammates (Revenant, auras from Tempests, etc). While Bountiful Theft is extremely good I prefer the cool-down reduction and condition clear from Trickster. I’d argue that it’s mandatory, as you need both the condition clear and increased healing to survive against several match-ups as well as team fights. Your cleave and Impact Strike also make up for the lack of stability rip to finish of players (as well as stealth to prevent stomps). Sleight of Hand gives more Mug, more Improvisation chances, and more utility from stolen abilities – as well as the daze.

Most utilities aren’t interchangeable. Withdraw is necessary for condition clear, especially with chill becoming a damaging condition. It’s also an instant cast ability. The new heal would be good, and possibly better otherwise.
Shadowstep is the best utility for Thief (double stun-break, condition clear, gap close/disengage). Signet of Agility compliments Daredevil too well to replace, and increases survivability as both a condition clear and endurance regen. It’s also an extremely good team utility (does the same for teammates).
The last slot is up to choice. I take Blinding Powder in most situations and Roll for Initiative when I need more condition clear. Refuge is obsolete with the amount of cleave and access to reveal floating around.
Impact Strike is extremely good (better than basilisk’s in almost all situations). It’s good CC, with a 2 second daze and a knock-up (sweet looking uppercut). It’s ability to instant kill those who you hit with the Finishing Blow (it bypasses downstate on opponents who you would have downed otherwise) and the knock-up interrupting downstate abilities (barring Thief and Ele) makes it one of the strongest skirmishing and team fight utilities in the game.

Classes to avoid one on one: Tempest and Dragonhunter. Tempest is largely a waste of time and not an easy match-up. Dragonhunter is basically impossible (there is only one Thief build that can reliably kill DH and it’s bad in every other situation).

I will write about D/P after my next class. Feel free to ask questions about anything and I’ll get to them as well.

yeah, you’ve basically outlined what I’ve concluded about the new thief meta. I disagree that escapists absolution is a bad trait, it’s not optimal for 1v1, but is very usable otherwise due to the sheer amount of cleave flying around.

I agree with you 100% on utilities.

edit: Overall how well do you think thief stacks up in 1v1 and in general meta usefulness?

D/P has one trait change from staff, dropping Staff Master for Pulmonary Impact. As for utilities I take Fist Flurry as the 3rd utility (keeping both Shadowstep and Signet of Agility), and I replace Impact Strike with Basilisk Venom. This build will feel similar to older Thief metas. It’s a very heavy single-target damage build. Basilisk will allow you to hit a full Fist Flurry, which can 100-0 squishy classes such as Thief or Mesmer. Pulmonary Impact allows you to deal with Tempests and Druids fairly easily.

Classes to avoid one on one: Dragonhunter (explained above), Engineers with Elixer B (Stability), and competent Reapers (Stability from Deathshroud makes a large difference between normal Necromancers and Reapers).

Not going to go too much into depth on D/P unless prompted as it’s been in the game since release. Feel free to ask whatever.

Dakarius.3284:

edit: Overall how well do you think thief stacks up in 1v1 and in general meta usefulness?

Thief can carry a team fight with Impact Strike, heavy damage, and stealth if you take it. You retain map mobility with shortbow, keeping +1 and decap presence. 1v1’s are dependent on your skill, the match-ups to avoid regardless of skill I’ve listed above.

The D/P build focuses more on eliminating a single target quickly and is generally more situational than staff. D/P seems to have fallen into a niche role against specific classes and offering team stealth, whereas staff is always good – in my opinion.

I’ve actually have been really liking S/D with Dash. The mobility is crazy and allows you to +1 and decap empty points easily. I’m not sure how it would work in higher MMR and more competent players though. I had pretty much written staff off at this point but I’ll give your build a shot! Looks like it could be fun and do insane damage.

I tried to recreate your build in the build editor. This look correct?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQJAWVn0MBlOhFOBmPBkmiFYCzLMEHaDzdwR4KULBEA2NA-TZBFABC8EAEvMQ87PswhAAgLAAA

Build links can be found on my twitch page – there’s a link to it in my signature, and the build links are in info.

Luto.1938:

I tried to recreate your build in the build editor. This look correct?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQJAWVn0MBlOhFOBmPBkmiFYCzLMEHaDzdwR4KULBEA2NA-TZBFABC8EAEvMQ87PswhAAgLAAA

Yes. I use Air over Fire on shortbow.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAqaVn0MB1OhVmCGmCkmiFYCzLMEHaDzfwSYLULBEA2NA-TJBFABCcKAiZ/BxLDAwTAAA

Any suggestions for change? Also, why Staff over d/p? You can go SA/TR/DD and get an amazingly high amount of survivability+burst. Honestly just very, very curios- DP still seems like the go to weapon set even with the new traitline.

Edit: I see a d/p build. Probably asked too soon. I guess a better question is which would be better- staff or DP?

When I run Sb/Staff, I feel like thieves and revs hunt me down all game. Any tips for disengaging against them?

Serious Thought.5394:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAqaVn0MB1OhVmCGmCkmiFYCzLMEHaDzfwSYLULBEA2NA-TJBFABCcKAiZ/BxLDAwTAAA

Any suggestions for change? Also, why Staff over d/p? You can go SA/TR/DD and get an amazingly high amount of survivability+burst. Honestly just very, very curios- DP still seems like the go to weapon set even with the new traitline.

Shadow Arts was only ever good for ressing. There’s too much cleave and Revenant is fairly prevalent, negating Shadow Arts resses. SA also has pathetic burst – both of those being negated you’re effectively a decap not. I also explained that staff has more staying power, and more damage, than D/P. After a burst you have no safe follow-up with D/P where staff has a large amount of evades allowing you to continue to apply pressure. The set is also AoE while doing similar damage (safely). Currently if you pressure a D/P Thief after their burst, or if you land a reveal (Revenant), they will die with stealth as their only safety.

As for the build you linked. Bandit’s Defense is useless in team fights as multiple people hitting you will break the block, sending you into another psuedo CC as you hopelessly attempt to kick someone. The ability also procs out of range quite often. Scorpion wire is buggy, and if you want condition clear (assuming that’s partly why you took it with Trickster removing a condition with a 16s cool-down) you might as well take Shadowstep. The condition clear is about the same (3 every 48 seconds with Scorpion Wire vs 50 seconds with Shadowstep) and burst clear is always better than 1 condition clear as you can cover damaging conditions with trash conditions (vulnerability, cripple, weakness, etc). Pistol/pistol is also something I wouldn’t run as it has no defensive abilities within the weapon set itself. I also believe Bound’s damage buff completely out classes Dash’s damage mitigation.

Edited for spelling… Tablets like to think they’re smart.

Drennon.7190:

When I run Sb/Staff, I feel like thieves and revs hunt me down all game. Any tips for disengaging against them?

Don’t try to run, you will waste your cool-downs attempting to get to the next point and be fairly useless once there. Turn on them – you can kill both Revenants and other Thieves.

Edit; If you must run Blinding Powder and Infiltrator’s Arrow will get you out. It depends on whether your team is alive and they know how to rotate/are map aware.

Reserved for future trolling (this is the thief forum)

Narcarsis.5739:

Scorpion wire is buggy, and if you want condition clear (assuming that’s partly why you took it with Trickster removing a condition with a 16s cool-down) you might as well take Shadowstep. The condition clear is about the same (3 every 48 seconds with Scorpion Wire vs 50 seconds with Shadowstep) and burst clear is always better than 1 condition clear as you can cover damaging conditions with trash conditions (vulnerability, cripple, weakness, etc).

Scorpion Wire is only buggy if used more than 600 range. Since I’m using a Staff, ScorpWire have not failed me when used in melee range. The ability to interrupt while cleansing is, to me, greater than burst cleanse. I personally do not like seeing my cleanse skill out in CD when I need it or do I like letting the conditions on me tick. Besides in a team fight, I can rely on my teammate to use an AoE cleanse and in that situation, Shadowstep is a dead skill in my bar while if I have ScorpWire, I can use it as an interrupt.

Thank you for your time Caed, you helped us.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Scorpion Wire is only buggy if used more than 600 range. Since I’m using a Staff, ScorpWire have not failed me when used in melee range. The ability to interrupt while cleansing is, to me, greater than burst cleanse. I personally do not like seeing my cleanse skill out in CD when I need it or do I like letting the conditions on me tick. Besides in a team fight, I can rely on my teammate to use an AoE cleanse and in that situation, Shadowstep is a dead skill in my bar while if I have ScorpWire, I can use it as an interrupt.

I’ve always been a proponent of running what works for you, as different players have different playstyles, mindsets, habits, etc and should run what they feel most comfortable with. All I can do is provide my perspective and try to give clarification for the reasoning behind it.

I Still find myself naked without fist flurry and bandits defense, since i pick brawler’s tenacy, along with shadow step for stun/cc breaker, bandits defense let me have another route as panic button, on other hand, the problem lies against conditions, i am very vulnerable against them and i dont know what to do, because i dont wanna drop these utilities for condi clear ones.

But I guess this a price to pay as pure offensive build right?

Ahh, another thing, also, I find CrtStrikes do better with Staff, with the healing trait, at least it fitted well on the Staff dmg, DA seems to me that its dmg “needs” a condi on the target, and i barely uses Weakeing Charge, what you think Caed?

Edit* said DD when i mean DA

Narcarsis.5739:

I do not think Absolutist’s Resolution is a good trait, as having condition clear dependant on an enemy will get you killed in high level play. Opponents will stop attacking you after a successful condition bomb, and you will end up falling over faster than you can clear damaging conditions against players who know how to cover their conditions (condition clear is last in, first out).

This trait should probably be rolled into driven fortitude to make it alright. The sheer number of cover condis really hurt it like you said. Most of the time it seems like it just pulls off the vuln, especially when fighting reapers, due to the constant reapplication.

pupi.2465:

Ahh, another thing, also, I find CrtStrikes do better with Staff, with the healing trait, at least it fitted well on the Staff dmg, DD seems to me that its dmg “needs” a condi on the target, and i barely uses Weakeing Charge, what you think Caed?

Personally I wouldn’t drop Trickery and I prefer Mug/Improvisation over Crit Strikes. I also wouldn’t take Invigorating Precision over No Quarter. The healing is minimal for the trade off in damage. Counter-pressure is often a better defence than playing defensively.

Narcarsis.5739:

Dakarius.3284:

edit: Overall how well do you think thief stacks up in 1v1 and in general meta usefulness?

Thief can carry a team fight with Impact Strike, heavy damage, and stealth if you take it. You retain map mobility with shortbow, keeping +1 and decap presence. 1v1’s are dependent on your skill, the match-ups to avoid regardless of skill I’ve listed above.

The D/P build focuses more on eliminating a single target quickly and is generally more situational than staff. D/P seems to have fallen into a niche role against specific classes and offering team stealth, whereas staff is always good – in my opinion.

I find this post hilarious due to the fact it coinsides with what many thieves are saying.

I also am amused by your tempest statement and have been of the same mind for quite sometime.

Hi, Caed. Have you had trouble with players becoming better at timing their attacks to land during the ~1/4 sec during Vault where we aren’t evading? Also, have you had trouble with Revenants who fight Staff Thieves very defensively (basically rotating between blocks, Shiro rolls, dodge rolls, and Glint heal to buy time between Unrelenting Assaults)? I’ve found Staff to be sooo much better against teams that have 4-5 cele, soldiers, and/or bunker builds. However, I generally still play D/P because players with more offensive builds have been nailing me with CC and bursts during my Vaults. Also, Revenants are learning that without stealth I can’t maintain the dodges necessary to continually counter UA unless I interrupt it with Steal and get Improv to reset a utility like Blinding Powder, Signet of Agility, or Roll for Initiative.

You are playing more skilled players than I am more regularly, are more inclined to 1v1 and hold point than someone of my skill level, and have mostly stuck with Staff despite probably facing these counters more often. Have you had similar trouble? If so, how have you adapted your play to counter or play around these counters to Staff?

i like the staff alot
but i have problem with it . i need good group as staff is more team orietnted .

i find dash very good against the chilling necro as only i withraw can screw you after used if you chill again with so many applications.

but still i think thief role is not to fight in balanced fight rather +1 and decap so the weapon you use is not that much important

what i find funny is the fact i have more abilities now with p/p and stealth bound especialy versus DH
but with all the cc around and blocking thief life is just hard . too hard that 1-2 dodges didnt make it better….

i would love to see you in 3v3, 2v2 4,4 situation with staff and not jst +1 and decap to see if i can do more things to my group versus other class and build

Narcarsis.5739:

Impact Strike is extremely good….. It’s ability to instant kill those who you hit with the Finishing Blow (it bypasses downstate on opponents who you would have downed otherwise) ….. makes it one of the strongest skirmishing and team fight utilities in the game.

This is completely true!

I think this is non intended behavior, and should be corrected.
I have been finished several times with a Finishing Blow without passing through downed state.
*Finishing Blow: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Finishing_Blow
The skill clearly specifies it will finish downed players. It should not finish alive players (non-downed) with low health.

This is clearly a bug and a correction of it will not mean it is a Nerf, contrary to what many people think, because it is a correction of a non-intended mechanic.

On the contrary, if Anet clarifies this out and changes the Tooltip to allow this behavior, it will mean it is a Buff to this skill (non intended beneficial behavior made intended = BUFF)

Nevertheless, I main also thief and was able to test a bit the Daredevil thanks to a friend who bought HoT and let me test it.

The build I most like is:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAsYFn0MhlOBGOBkmiFYCzLNcGaDzdwSYLULBEA2NA-TZBFABCcCAEvMQJ7PswhAAgnAAA
Which leaves an utility skill free to choose (in order of preference) between:
*Infiltrator Signet
*Blinding Powder
*Roll for Initiative
*Distracting Daggers (I would use Impacting Disruption trait and Weakening Strikes trait in this case)

I cannot leave the mobility Infiltrator Strike and Infiltrator Return (#2 sword) gives me to engage and disengage and clean conditions. And cannot leave the boon steal and unblock-able damage from Larcenous Strike. That´s why I prefer sword over staff.

I think Escapist Absolution trait to clean conditions is very good, because there will be always damage around which can be dodge to clean conditions (from pets, clones, minions, etc) and when it is a strictly 1 v 1 with no pets or minions involved, I think the enemy cant just stand still without attacking or doing anything after a condi burst while I am still hitting him

Fistandanthilus.6824:

This is clearly a bug and a correction of it will not mean it is a Nerf, contrary to what many people think, because it is a correction of a non-intended mechanic.

Nerfs are nerfs, regardless of the reason behind them. There are many times in the history of MMOs that a bug has been left in because it ended up creating more interesting gameplay, and/or it attached to a disadvantaged class that could use the boost.

Basically, unless it’s a balance problem—and it doesn’t seem to be at the moment—why ruin interesting emergent gameplay?

Fistandanthilus.6824:

I think this is non intended behavior, and should be corrected.
I have been finished several times with a Finishing Blow without passing through downed state.
*Finishing Blow: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Finishing_Blow
The skill clearly specifies it will finish downed players. It should not finish alive players (non-downed) with low health.

This is clearly a bug and a correction of it will not mean it is a Nerf, contrary to what many people think, because it is a correction of a non-intended mechanic.

On the contrary, if Anet clarifies this out and changes the Tooltip to allow this behavior, it will mean it is a Buff to this skill (non intended beneficial behavior made intended = BUFF)

Nevertheless, I main also thief and was able to test a bit the Daredevil thanks to a friend who bought HoT and let me test it.

It’s a feature not a bug, it was even mentioned by Anet during Daredevil reveal.

i had make some crafting about daredevil, finally its near your build.

Its just so nice to play with that. I hope a lot this will can found a place in the next meta.

I have some trouble to use finishing blow chain. i think i need to practice more.
I have see some “radius” tool tips, did you know if its can multi-stomp ?

i will ask again why take DA over CS
you loss improvisation but get perma fury and about 30% – 41% more dmg
so with extra dmg you can take with DD weakening strike and escapist absolution

messiah.1908:

i will ask again why take DA over CS
you loss improvisation but get perma fury and about 30% – 41% more dmg
so with extra dmg you can take with DD weakening strike and escapist absolution

I think because cs is just dmg only. Da offers more utility and staff isn’t a bust weapon like d/x is……use to be.

Running your staff build Caed with one modification – executioner instead of impro. I also use palmstrike as 3rd utlity. Its blowing my mind, seriously palmstrike + staff 5 + dodge is ridiculous damage and I have great survivability

messiah.1908:

i will ask again why take DA over CS
you loss improvisation but get perma fury and about 30% – 41% more dmg
so with extra dmg you can take with DD weakening strike and escapist absolution

1) DA has great synergy with Trickery, while CS doesn’t.
2) DA has a damage modifier regardless of health thresholds, Improvisation is good utility, Panic Strikes can secure a kill, and Mug is of course more damage and survivability. CS only offers better damage than DA while a target is above 50%.
3) If you get fury from other sources, the effectiveness of CS is reduced since permanent fury is a large portion of the damage increase it offers.
4) If more damage is what you want, you’ll get it by taking Executioner in DA over Improvisation. Not only will your damage be better than had you taken CS, but your best damage will land on targets under 50% health as opposed to above, helping you down them.

Impact.2780:

messiah.1908:

i will ask again why take DA over CS
you loss improvisation but get perma fury and about 30% – 41% more dmg
so with extra dmg you can take with DD weakening strike and escapist absolution

1) DA has great synergy with Trickery, while CS doesn’t.
2) DA has a damage modifier regardless of health thresholds, Improvisation is good utility, Panic Strikes can secure a kill, and Mug is of course more damage and survivability. CS only offers better damage than DA while a target is above 50%.
3) If you get fury from other sources, the effectiveness of CS is reduced since permanent fury is a large portion of the damage increase it offers.
4) If more damage is what you want, you’ll get it by taking Executioner in DA over Improvisation. Not only will your damage be better than had you taken CS, but your best damage will land on targets under 50% health as opposed to above, helping you down them.

who DA synergy with trickery?
CS does 10% more dmg when you target is above 50%, practice tolerance gives 12% more dmg when crit and no quater gives 17% more dmg when crit

DA executioner gives 20% when target is below 50% and you have 10% more dmg when target is with condition.
mug does okish dmg every 20 sec and healing

with the build above you dont have much fury only from other allies.

after testing the dmg is much higher with CS while i am losing immobilize which most classes got some way to reduced (dash thieves), necro 33-66% reduced duration, warrior immunity etc…

also the loss of swiftness how is it feel in the role of decap rotate the map faster?

messiah.1908:

Impact.2780:

messiah.1908:

i will ask again why take DA over CS
you loss improvisation but get perma fury and about 30% – 41% more dmg
so with extra dmg you can take with DD weakening strike and escapist absolution

1) DA has great synergy with Trickery, while CS doesn’t.
2) DA has a damage modifier regardless of health thresholds, Improvisation is good utility, Panic Strikes can secure a kill, and Mug is of course more damage and survivability. CS only offers better damage than DA while a target is above 50%.
3) If you get fury from other sources, the effectiveness of CS is reduced since permanent fury is a large portion of the damage increase it offers.
4) If more damage is what you want, you’ll get it by taking Executioner in DA over Improvisation. Not only will your damage be better than had you taken CS, but your best damage will land on targets under 50% health as opposed to above, helping you down them.

who DA synergy with trickery?
CS does 10% more dmg when you target is above 50%, practice tolerance gives 12% more dmg when crit and no quater gives 17% more dmg when crit

DA executioner gives 20% when target is below 50% and you have 10% more dmg when target is with condition.
mug does okish dmg every 20 sec and healing

with the build above you dont have much fury only from other allies.

after testing the dmg is much higher with CS while i am losing immobilize which most classes got some way to reduced (dash thieves), necro 33-66% reduced duration, warrior immunity etc…

also the loss of swiftness how is it feel in the role of decap rotate the map faster?

It’s a toss-up between Improvisation and No Quarter. Which even works on your build is what trait line you pick. I’ve been using CS for quite a while and I love it, however I miss Improvisation a lot because it’s that good.

messiah.1908:

Impact.2780:

messiah.1908:

i will ask again why take DA over CS
you loss improvisation but get perma fury and about 30% – 41% more dmg
so with extra dmg you can take with DD weakening strike and escapist absolution

1) DA has great synergy with Trickery, while CS doesn’t.
2) DA has a damage modifier regardless of health thresholds, Improvisation is good utility, Panic Strikes can secure a kill, and Mug is of course more damage and survivability. CS only offers better damage than DA while a target is above 50%.
3) If you get fury from other sources, the effectiveness of CS is reduced since permanent fury is a large portion of the damage increase it offers.
4) If more damage is what you want, you’ll get it by taking Executioner in DA over Improvisation. Not only will your damage be better than had you taken CS, but your best damage will land on targets under 50% health as opposed to above, helping you down them.

who DA synergy with trickery?
CS does 10% more dmg when you target is above 50%, practice tolerance gives 12% more dmg when crit and no quater gives 17% more dmg when crit

DA executioner gives 20% when target is below 50% and you have 10% more dmg when target is with condition.
mug does okish dmg every 20 sec and healing

with the build above you dont have much fury only from other allies.

after testing the dmg is much higher with CS while i am losing immobilize which most classes got some way to reduced (dash thieves), necro 33-66% reduced duration, warrior immunity etc…

also the loss of swiftness how is it feel in the role of decap rotate the map faster?

DA/TR synergy: Mug + Improvisation + Poison + Weakness more frequently

CS does 10% extra CRIT dmg while the target is above 50% health

Warrior’s immunity to Panic Strike is only in WvW

swiftness is – while really useful – not too much of a big deal on thief for decapping, as you are really fast with SB#5, no matter whether youve got swiftness or not

for WvW i’m actually using dash for mobility reasons (and having no problems with immob) but bound is the more dmg/less defense/less mobility/no-immob-cure dodge

while CS is nice (i use it with staff to easily solo towers and t3 camps with ogre/whatever support in wvw), improvisation is gold against warriors (with pistol OH), other thieves, mesmers and condi rangers (also gives you a better chance vs d/d eles)

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoaVl0MhunYvTw4Jw/EHwEkPMxpN8ekjdoTQA2NA-TJBFABCcKAEvMQN7PAwTAAA
I don’t really have much to say in terms of my personal skill play but I’ve been a consistent main Thief pvper ever since I’ve started (prefer over WvWvW cause of the consistent fights) playing gw2. After going through so much nerfs I’ve come to a conclusion that the best defence is offense, yet again you won’t be able to do much once you die in like two hits.
Solution, this trickery buff build. Only difference between this and the standard d/p pack/vamp are the utilities. You don’t really have to view the build link as the only difference are truly the utilities. With this build, I’m surprisingly able to stand against most elite classes, reapers, scrappers etc etc. The only ones I couldn’t stand, like what you’ve stated above are DH and Tempest (take forever to kill). Double stunbreak with 2 condition clears as well as initiative/quickness uptime. So meh, YUM.

I switched to Staff Master awhile ago and didn’t really notice the lack of condition clear on evade, seems like no matter what game mode you find yourself in, one cleared condition doesn’t make up for what you have to put yourself through to proc it, which is likely bathing in every condition in the game at once.

Anyone using this build or generally the same template in WvW, do you still use Bound or do you switch to Dash? If you still use Bound out there, do you make up for speed anywhere else? I don’t have much of a problem using Bound anywhere else and I prefer the way it feels anyway, but in WvW I have a hard time not having something for sustained run speed, especially while on my own and Utility slots are slim as it is.

rennlc.7346:

Hi, Caed. Have you had trouble with players becoming better at timing their attacks to land during the ~1/4 sec during Vault where we aren’t evading? Also, have you had trouble with Revenants who fight Staff Thieves very defensively (basically rotating between blocks, Shiro rolls, dodge rolls, and Glint heal to buy time between Unrelenting Assaults)? I’ve found Staff to be sooo much better against teams that have 4-5 cele, soldiers, and/or bunker builds. However, I generally still play D/P because players with more offensive builds have been nailing me with CC and bursts during my Vaults. Also, Revenants are learning that without stealth I can’t maintain the dodges necessary to continually counter UA unless I interrupt it with Steal and get Improv to reset a utility like Blinding Powder, Signet of Agility, or Roll for Initiative.

You are playing more skilled players than I am more regularly, are more inclined to 1v1 and hold point than someone of my skill level, and have mostly stuck with Staff despite probably facing these counters more often. Have you had similar trouble? If so, how have you adapted your play to counter or play around these counters to Staff?

Most of the match-up depends on your timings out of Unrelenting and shield blocks. If you find yourself having trouble against Revenants try to get a feel for their cool-downs and keep track of their endurance bar. You will begin to notice the small timings where you can land steal. Unrelenting timings are fairly easy to get used to as well (double dodge and Vault. The Vault should land and will crit due to Daredevil runes if you choose to run them). Also look around at where you are fighting. Find the areas with no valid path for teleporting and begin to get used to Vaulting to them. Staff is extremely good for abusing terrain advantage.

As for people timing their attacks/CC on the vulnerability frame of Vault just begin to learn the players that you fight – people have their own habits. Once you begin to see how they think then you can play around it pretty easily. There are players who try to daze everything (Pulmonary Impact Thieves) in which you just start a cast and stow a couple times. They will burn through their entire initiative bar and you can kill them quickly. And then there are those who only wait for the vuln frames – these players you have to be aggressive with. Start covering your Vaults with blinds from Dust Strike and make sure you land your Bound – forcing them on the defensive will give you a lot of room to be able to land Vaults without being interrupted.

Fistandanthilus.6824:

This is completely true!

I think this is non intended behavior, and should be corrected.
I have been finished several times with a Finishing Blow without passing through downed state.
*Finishing Blow: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Finishing_Blow
The skill clearly specifies it will finish downed players. It should not finish alive players (non-downed) with low health.

This is clearly a bug and a correction of it will not mean it is a Nerf, contrary to what many people think, because it is a correction of a non-intended mechanic.

On the contrary, if Anet clarifies this out and changes the Tooltip to allow this behavior, it will mean it is a Buff to this skill (non intended beneficial behavior made intended = BUFF)

Nevertheless, I main also thief and was able to test a bit the Daredevil thanks to a friend who bought HoT and let me test it.

The build I most like is:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAsYFn0MhlOBGOBkmiFYCzLNcGaDzdwSYLULBEA2NA-TZBFABCcCAEvMQJ7PswhAAgnAAA
Which leaves an utility skill free to choose (in order of preference) between:
*Infiltrator Signet
*Blinding Powder
*Roll for Initiative
*Distracting Daggers (I would use Impacting Disruption trait and Weakening Strikes trait in this case)

I cannot leave the mobility Infiltrator Strike and Infiltrator Return (#2 sword) gives me to engage and disengage and clean conditions. And cannot leave the boon steal and unblock-able damage from Larcenous Strike. That´s why I prefer sword over staff.

I think Escapist Absolution trait to clean conditions is very good, because there will be always damage around which can be dodge to clean conditions (from pets, clones, minions, etc) and when it is a strictly 1 v 1 with no pets or minions involved, I think the enemy cant just stand still without attacking or doing anything after a condi burst while I am still hitting him

Impact Strike is intended as is.

As for the build. Strength Runes should be replaces – You have no self might stacking and might is the second to last boom stolen from Larcenist Strike.
I still prefer Bound over Dash, but overall that is probably the trait spread I would use if I wanted to play S/D. I don’t think it provides as much as other weapon sets at the moment though.

Belgarion.1975:

I have see some “radius” tool tips, did you know if its can multi-stomp ?

It can only hit one target, and the target cannot be stealthed (not sure if this is bugged or not). If you get blinded or interrupted it will miss and end the chain.

messiah.1908:

i will ask again why take DA over CS
you loss improvisation but get perma fury and about 30% – 41% more dmg
so with extra dmg you can take with DD weakening strike and escapist absolution

The damage from CS is critical damage modifiers. They are additive with other critical damage modifiers, however pure damage modifiers alter the base damage, before critical damage is calculated. This leads to a larger damage increase from pure damage modifiers. To give an example:

10% damage Modifier vs 10% critical damage modifier when you have 200% crit damage.
Critting for 1,000 under the +10% critical damage will crit for 3,100 damage.
Critting for 1,000 under the +10% damage modifier will hit for 1,100, then crit for 3,300 damage.

The reason for explaining this is to say that the 10% damage modifier from Deadly Arts is more effective than the 10% critical damage modifier from Critical Strikes. Before the patch I used to play DA/CS/TR. I had to choose to drop one trait line in order to pick up Daredevil. I chose to drop Critical Strikes for a couple reasons.

1. The damage loss from CS was actually passed and outdone by the damage gain from Daredevil. Daredevil provided pure damage modifiers versus Critical Strike’s critical damage modifiers.
2. You already have over 60% critical chance with Marauder amulet, which is sufficient without fury – and to add to that your team will often provide you with fury and a plethora of other boons.
3. Deadly Arts provides a myriad of other things I would not give up for only critical damage and permanent fury. Mug is overlooked as our largest source of sustain. It heals roughly half our health bar every minute (granted you land steal). Panic Strike is good at catching people and landing finishing blows (Vault, Backstab, Bound + Steal). Improvisation, as I stated earlier, is one of the best traits in the game – and I said that before it gave you 2 stolen abilities. The chance to instantly reset your utilities is huge when they have such a high impact (no pun intended) on fights.

Furthermore, you take Staff Master for the Endurance Regeneration and not so much for the damage. That is just an added bonus.

kash.9213:

Anyone using this build or generally the same template in WvW, do you still use Bound or do you switch to Dash? If you still use Bound out there, do you make up for speed anywhere else? I don’t have much of a problem using Bound anywhere else and I prefer the way it feels anyway, but in WvW I have a hard time not having something for sustained run speed, especially while on my own and Utility slots are slim as it is.

I’m usually solo roaming in WvW (sometimes PvPing, less since my team broke up), played around with a yolo P/P + Staff Build (Vault + Dash + Staff Mastery got some mobility really close to SB + Dash!)

I tried out this build today

It’s close to Caeds but with Infiltrator’s Signet over Blinding Powder (can do some nice bursts with Staff #2 and Steal/IS), Dash over Bound for mobility and immob-immunity, using the new healing skill (absolutely love it) and therefore not using the Trickster-TR-Variant but the “usual”/“normal” TR trait spread

in short: I use Dash over Bound in WvW, the mobility and immob-immunity is just so nice there, in PvP I prefer Bound though

A rune set to consider is Exuberance. They give nearly as much power as most power runes with about 50 less. They give about 3.5% more precision on a crit build. Most importantly they slop on another 1750 HP which is great condi buffer and have a very minor bonus with a few extra healing points.

yeah i’m using exuberance myself the healing power is a complete waste on thief’s though, but with mara and no qaurter your sitting at 78% chance to crit with 200+ crit and around 2000 power. with 19 000 life

*had crit chance two times.

Using Daredevil runes for the Intelligence Proc and not so much for raw stats. However runes are largely choice as I think there are a lot of good options. Scholar and Pack are two more that do well.

Tarkan.5609:

I’m usually solo roaming in WvW (sometimes PvPing, less since my team broke up), played around with a yolo P/P + Staff Build (Vault + Dash + Staff Mastery got some mobility really close to SB + Dash!)

I tried out this build today

It’s close to Caeds but with Infiltrator’s Signet over Blinding Powder (can do some nice bursts with Staff #2 and Steal/IS), Dash over Bound for mobility and immob-immunity, using the new healing skill (absolutely love it) and therefore not using the Trickster-TR-Variant but the “usual”/“normal” TR trait spread

in short: I use Dash over Bound in WvW, the mobility and immob-immunity is just so nice there, in PvP I prefer Bound though

Some infos about the build

hide spoiler

It’s weak against conditions but for some reason I don’t see a lot of condi builds running around lately which is a blessing… usually if I go up against condi opponents I make sure to have Shadowstep off CD, get a few hits off to see whether I can burst the opponent and how many conditions he is able to load on me. Then I decide whether I wanna condi clear using Shadowstep+Run, of whether I wanna burst some more to end the fight

you could replace shortbow with a different weapon (as Staff’s mobility is close to SB’s, as mentioned above) but I like to have a ranged option, P/D’s kiting is not needed as you’ve got dash and P/P got some burst but no defense… (you could self stealth yourself for a few seconds though with Blinding Powder + double Vault)

rage rune is because i don’t need pack’s swiftness but wanna have perma fury with TotC, the +5% damage also making up for some lost power due to marauder weapons

I really like my stats as they are:

• 2460 Power without BL, 2700 with Bloodlust
• ~57% crit chance and perma fury
• 14k HP, usually 15k while in WvW (my sweet spot)
• 2150 toughness (base toughness, never increase it)
• 221% crit dmg

The only thing I’d really suggest is dropping Havoc Mastery for Brawler’s Tenacity. In WvW you have a large amount of damage as is, being able to heal more often will also result in more endurance giving you more options – however that’s partly because I’d take Bound over Dash.

Tarkan.5609:

kash.9213:

Anyone using this build or generally the same template in WvW, do you still use Bound or do you switch to Dash? If you still use Bound out there, do you make up for speed anywhere else? I don’t have much of a problem using Bound anywhere else and I prefer the way it feels anyway, but in WvW I have a hard time not having something for sustained run speed, especially while on my own and Utility slots are slim as it is.

I’m usually solo roaming in WvW (sometimes PvPing, less since my team broke up), played around with a yolo P/P + Staff Build (Vault + Dash + Staff Mastery got some mobility really close to SB + Dash!)

I tried out this build today

It’s close to Caeds but with Infiltrator’s Signet over Blinding Powder (can do some nice bursts with Staff #2 and Steal/IS), Dash over Bound for mobility and immob-immunity, using the new healing skill (absolutely love it) and therefore not using the Trickster-TR-Variant but the “usual”/“normal” TR trait spread

in short: I use Dash over Bound in WvW, the mobility and immob-immunity is just so nice there, in PvP I prefer Bound though

Some infos about the build

hide spoiler

It’s weak against conditions but for some reason I don’t see a lot of condi builds running around lately which is a blessing… usually if I go up against condi opponents I make sure to have Shadowstep off CD, get a few hits off to see whether I can burst the opponent and how many conditions he is able to load on me. Then I decide whether I wanna condi clear using Shadowstep+Run, of whether I wanna burst some more to end the fight

you could replace shortbow with a different weapon (as Staff’s mobility is close to SB’s, as mentioned above) but I like to have a ranged option, P/D’s kiting is not needed as you’ve got dash and P/P got some burst but no defense… (you could self stealth yourself for a few seconds though with Blinding Powder + double Vault)

rage rune is because i don’t need pack’s swiftness but wanna have perma fury with TotC, the +5% damage also making up for some lost power due to marauder weapons

I really like my stats as they are:

• 2460 Power without BL, 2700 with Bloodlust
• ~57% crit chance and perma fury
• 14k HP, usually 15k while in WvW (my sweet spot)
• 2150 toughness (base toughness, never increase it)
• 221% crit dmg

Appreciate that response, had some questions but they were answered in that spoiler for the most part. The main reason I’m going back and forth between the two dodges is because, like Narcarsis mentioned, Dash tends to keep me too far from my target and it’s a little awkward to orient myself when I jump/dodge to position behind or to flank. Otherwise, I’d easily land on Dash. I pretty much have my build and stats I hover around and clean up as I go along but this run speed thing has pestered me since the game came out and I know it’s entirely an issue with how I want to play and not much to do with performance.

Narcarsis.5739:

Using Daredevil runes for the Intelligence Proc and not so much for raw stats. However runes are largely choice as I think there are a lot of good options. Scholar and Pack are two more that do well.

Yep, I like DrD-runes with D/P as well. Dodging and getting a guaranteed crit with maybe heartseeker, shadowshot or backstab in some situations is really nice. Bad side is that you have to be infight, but whatever. Stats are great together with the bonus of 6. effect. Power > Precision > Ferocity, so…
I´m not sure about DrD or Pack though.
Furthermore the uestion about sigill of fire/blood. Blood gives definitly better sustain (think about it like that —> I does mostly like 630 on normal D/P-build —> making around 1200 difference of health each time —> advantage) . The fact that fire scales with +X% is very interesting as well.

I´m very happy about that post. It gives a lot information to other thieves (I know a hell lot about “thief” in general, but I´m always happy to learn new things.
Still experimenting with D/P, S/D and staff.
SD has some stupid aftercasts, weird animation cause of all the nerfs happended. Larcenious should definitly do more damage and steal 2 boons again.
staff is a two-edged-sword again. A lot of people still can´t dodge vault, while its very vulnerable to intterrupts or AOE in the end of the animation.
Dash is great in skirmishing. Going into fights and disengage often. Bound is great if used correctly. I´m not sure wich is better. Having the effect with normal animation would be much more efficient. Funny that we have to fight against our grandmaster-traits (the distance of dash can be great of course, but not when you fight).

Another huge point is bountiful theft vs trickster. I think bountiful theft is generally better then trickster, but in your staff-build you definitly need some condi-clear. I hate that decision. Trickster should clear 2 conditions imo to make it really on par and a “good decision” and not a decision that has to be made because of crappy alternatives for condi-clear.

Coronit.9432:

Yep, I like DrD-runes with D/P as well. Dodging and getting a guaranteed crit with maybe heartseeker, shadowshot or backstab in some situations is really nice. Bad side is that you have to be infight, but whatever. Stats are great together with the bonus of 6. effect. Power > Precision > Ferocity, so…
I´m not sure about DrD or Pack though.
Furthermore the question about sigil of fire/blood. Blood gives definitly better sustain (think about it like that —> I does mostly like 630 on normal D/P-build --> making around 1200 difference of health each time —> advantage) . The fact that fire scales with +X% is very interesting as well.

I´m very happy about that post. It gives a lot information to other thieves (I know a hell lot about “thief” in general, but I´m always happy to learn new things.
Still experimenting with D/P, S/D and staff.
SD has some stupid aftercasts, weird animation cause of all the nerfs happended. Larcenious should definitly do more damage and steal 2 boons again.
staff is a two-edged-sword again. A lot of people still can´t dodge vault, while its very vulnerable to intterrupts or AOE in the end of the animation.
Dash is great in skirmishing. Going into fights and disengage often. Bound is great if used correctly. I´m not sure which is better. Having the effect with normal animation would be much more efficient. Funny that we have to fight against our grandmaster-traits (the distance of dash can be great of course, but not when you fight).

Another huge point is bountiful theft vs trickster. I think bountiful theft is generally better then trickster, but in your staff-build you definitly need some condi-clear. I hate that decision. Trickster should clear 2 conditions imo to make it really on par and a “good decision” and not a decision that has to be made because of crappy alternatives for condi-clear.

I don’t use Daredevil runes with D/P – only on staff.
Blood only heals around 400. I can’t say for certain but I’d estimate the life-steal at around 2/3 of the damage it does.
I haven’t used Bountiful since the trait changes. I prefer the shorter CD withdraw and it pairs nicely with Flanking Strikes. Bountiful is good, but it depends on what you value and how you play in the end. If I had reliable condition clear from other sources I would probably take Bountiful Theft, Brawler’s Tenacity and Channelled Vigor.

Narcarsis.5739:

It’s good CC, with a 2 second daze and a knock-up (sweet looking uppercut).

I like where this is going

Narcarsis.5739:

The only thing I’d really suggest is dropping Havoc Mastery for Brawler’s Tenacity. In WvW you have a large amount of damage as is, being able to heal more often will also result in more endurance giving you more options – however that’s partly because I’d take Bound over Dash.

True I didn’t think of that.
I’ll have to test it, as 4s os quite significant on such a heal… however I feel like Brawler’s Tenacity + Channeled Vigor + Bound would be a better combo, as Dash’s usefulness is limited to kiting or dodging+immob curing

Great write up.

I have been running with a similar build but with Executioneer, Bountiful Theft and Thrill of the crime. The damage increase is multiplicative from traits so with Havoc Master, Staff Master, Bound, Exposed Weakness and Executioneer that is: 1.1 * 1.1 *1.1 * 1.1 * 1.2 = 1.75692; giving a 75% damage increase on targets below the threshold. Rune wise I chose Scrapper for a little more sustain and Channeled Vigor, Fist Flurry, Bandit’s Defense, Shadowstep and Impact Strike for utilities. I typically don’t use Bandit’s Defense if I am in the middle of a group if I need a stunbreak and use Shadowstep to get out. Generally I try to avoid those situations though and focus on moving on to an uncontested point instead. The choice between Withdraw and Channeled Vigor is a tough one and the endurance regen is nice as well as the healing burst if your endurance is full. It just means conditions are problem and I have to play smart to avoid conditions. Fist Flurry does a lot of damage if you land it all and this can be hard to pull off so I save it for CC’d targets or after landing the kick in a 1v1 from Bandit’s Defense.

I do agree staff is the better weapon because of the high burst AoE and the simple fact you can contest a point with it since you don’t rely so heavily on stealth. I also prefer the elusive play style over the Knifey McShivdark play style. With it I have managed to sustain well enough in a 1v1 to get that last 2 seconds to decap if I can trick them off the point which is easier since they are under the impression the point is their’s and don’t need to hold it and won’t focus as hard on staying on it. After that unless the enemy is at 20% health it is time to dip out with SS and then swap over to SB to leave them behind to recap and move on to help my team elsewhere.