Guild Wars 2

Like:
-Backstab damage being something that scares people (people other than glass cannons)
-The 1200 range on cluster bomb
-I’d like to be able to use stealth in pvp in an effective way (meaning be able to invest a bit in SA for things like d/d thief without gimping my team or myself)
-Not getting 1 shot by clases that stack might and tankiness but get guaranteed crits via traits and sigils to take 5k hp from an auto attack (of all things)
-Not having our only reliable and cosistent condi removal be tied to stealth (so basically more defense against condi outside of SA)

Feel free to add to the list things you’d like to see the thief get back or get buffed in. WITHIN REASON and please no rage comments, this is a discussion to provide some contructive feedback for buffs that thief could use.

I dont really have anything in particular, I just wanted to say that I love the sig “Supporting rights to arm bears”

I just want my dancing dagger damage un-nerfed, since they already buffed phantasms, clones, and necro minions.

I want to be able to be a soldier’s zerg thief again whatever went wrong on april 15th 2014 (and no, it wasn’t the crit dmg or rune of melandru nerf alone or if so it went horribly wrong).

I can see stealth being very viable in the new strong hold map as your objective is to assassinate The Lord

Kurow.3076:

I just want my dancing dagger damage un-nerfed, since they already buffed phantasms, clones, and necro minions.

Thought we got a buff a few weeks ago. I think the new dancing dagger is good as it is.

Eh’d. I’d like Venoms reworked completely, Traps altered to be slot-worthy without a runeset, some acceptable balance between Acrobatics and Shadow Arts as sources of a Thief’s condi-clear/sustain options … oh, and P/P upgraded.
Did I miss anything?

Please keep in mind this is not a rage message, this is reality
To make thief more viable, we need:

- More backstab damage (10k isn’t enough)
- More regen (330/seconds in stealth isn’t enough)
- More stealth (perma stealth isn’t enough)
- More TPs (5-6 TPs aren’t enough)
- More blinds (perma blind isn’t enough)
- More dodges (perma vigor and Feline Grace aren’t enough)
- More presence in PvP (1 thief in every top team isn’t enough)

Attachement:
http://i.imgur.com/M39SVyl.gif

You can achieve backstappphs that scare people today if you spec right, but that affects your survivability by heaps.
I tried DecieverX’ yolo assassin build a few nights ago, and I had to double take a look at the damage log. I did 10k cloak and dagger, and 17k backstabs on crits (on squishies tho). That was fun :-) not a serious setup, but instagibs is still a possibility.

PsyKoOz.8701:

Please keep in mind this is not a rage message, this is reality
To make thief more viable, we need:

- More backstab damage (10k isn’t enough)
- More regen (330/seconds in stealth isn’t enough)
- More stealth (perma stealth isn’t enough)
- More TPs (5-6 TPs aren’t enough)
- More blinds (perma blind isn’t enough)
- More dodges (perma vigor and Feline Grace aren’t enough)
- More presence in PvP (1 thief in every top team isn’t enough)

Attachement:
http://i.imgur.com/M39SVyl.gif

Also more condi clear (we should have more options than on heal, on a spamable MH weapon skill, on stealth/periodically in stealth)

Still wish for more condi clear for non stealth builds. Pain Response is garbage.

I’d love Sword 2 being unnerfed back to having no cast animation. We’re too squishy and have to set it up in advanced, plus it was one of our only decent condi removers in stealthless builds.

I’d love Cluster Bomb range being unnerfed. So sick of having the worst range. They didn’t even have the decency to let us trait pistols to 1200 and gave us a random number, making us the only class with 1050 range. =/ On that note they could give Power Shots a 1200 SB range add-on considering it’s an extremely awful trait when you can just get a better dmg trait elsewhere.

4s reveal is still unnecessary in spvp and makes transitioning back and forth from it annoying and makes me want to avoid stealth builds even more. That can be reverted.

Last Refuge still needs fixed after adding reveal mechanic over 2 years ago broke it. Amazing how they avoid discussing that with us or trying to patch it.

anet’s definition of buffs, enjoy: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/HoT-Demo-Possible-bad-news-for-thieves/first

Venoms.
Traps.
Tricks.
Elites.
P/P skill set.
Less ini on cloak and dagger, to help S/D and D/D builds.
Acrobats Line.
Useless Traits.
Range.

cyyrix.6105:

PsyKoOz.8701:

Please keep in mind this is not a rage message, this is reality
To make thief more viable, we need:

- More backstab damage (10k isn’t enough)
- More regen (330/seconds in stealth isn’t enough)
- More stealth (perma stealth isn’t enough)
- More TPs (5-6 TPs aren’t enough)
- More blinds (perma blind isn’t enough)
- More dodges (perma vigor and Feline Grace aren’t enough)
- More presence in PvP (1 thief in every top team isn’t enough)

Attachement:
http://i.imgur.com/M39SVyl.gif

Also more condi clear (we should have more options than on heal, on a spamable MH weapon skill, on stealth/periodically in stealth)

Oh yeah ! I forgot it, thanks !

@PsyKoOz
While I appreciate the sarcasm (and believe me, I do) that wasn’t the point of this thread so I’d prefer you keep counterproductive responses out of this thread. Thank you

But also to address a point you actually have made, that damage only comes on running full glass against full glass and that is 1) Extremely hard to find 2) Too rare to be worth the investment, by going with a build meant for super quick kills as a thief you sacrifice pretty much all your survivability (as pretty much ALL our good survival traits are locked into one line that is completely useless in pvp)
Regen is fine, I never said there was a problem with it.
Perma stealth technically is no longer achievable but with rendering bugs and such it is possible to stay near perma stealth by chaining CnD but that is beside the point as nobody in this thread has requested more access to stealth.
TPs are close to irrelevant since the only one that is a stunbreak or condi clear worth noting is on a 40 sec CD (yes the signet is a stunbreak but generally when you stunbreak you don’t really want to go toward your opponent). Yes sword 2 is a cndi clear but because of the cast time it’s really not as useful anymore except in unique situations and it costs initative which as we all should know weakens a thief as initiative is a global CD system.
You realize blind was nerfed right? The only people that complain about “perma blind” (which is no longer a thing) are people that are either trying really hard to troll or have got some serious work to do to improve.
Dodges and feline grace are put into a single tree that is utilized by really just 1 build in the thief class’ existence. Besides, beating an s/d thief is easy, all you have to do is hit them once and half their hp is gone. and don’t tell me that it is hard as plenty of people manage to do it without any sort of issue.
More presence in pvp was meant more as more variety of usage in pvp. Why should a class be locked into 2 builds that are only viable or good when you have a good player using it and even then are still a little weak? Yes thieves are popular in top tier pvp but the reason for that is the team is able to cover for the insane amount of weaknesses the thief has. You never see these thief players 1v1ing consistently in a game and that’s because all their survival traits (minus the sd dodging traits which still leave you open to condis which are super popular in the metagame right now) have been nerfed to uselessness in pvp. Thieves in top tier pvp only go in for kills when they are not being focused and they can get someone down who is already at 25% hp. The second they get focused they have to run and are often downed before they can do so because they aren’t able to grab traits to help them live without making themselves near useless to their team..

Now that I’ve covered that, have a good day

P.S. @Klowde, Thanks bro!

Nephrite.6954:

Kurow.3076:

I just want my dancing dagger damage un-nerfed, since they already buffed phantasms, clones, and necro minions.

Thought we got a buff a few weeks ago. I think the new dancing dagger is good as it is.

“Dancing Dagger: The projectile speed of this skill has been increased by 33%.” – that barely qualifies as a “buff”.

“Dancing Dagger: This skill’s damage has been reduced by 50%.” – from November 15, 2012 update.

Grumpy cat says it best:

mompen.7952:

You can achieve backstappphs that scare people today if you spec right, but that affects your survivability by heaps.
I tried DecieverX’ yolo assassin build a few nights ago, and I had to double take a look at the damage log. I did 10k cloak and dagger, and 17k backstabs on crits (on squishies tho). That was fun :-) not a serious setup, but instagibs is still a possibility.

Thanks for the reference ^^

There’s definitely a lot less durability there, but it can be manageable for the most part. The build only really finds itself truly overwhelmed by condi bombs and P/D thieves (but everything does) with enough practice. Actually, most condi dire specs give it trouble, but as is the usual for basically everyone playing in the PvP formats.

I agree in that I don’t think stab needs more damage so much as the utility in SA and Acro needs to make its way more towards Deadly Arts and Crit Strikes or be more universal to all builds so stealth-less options also see some increased viability. The healing critical strike thing just isn’t as effective as ANet seems to want to make it, especially when the weakness at hand is really just condition cleansing.

It is quite fun to play, though :P

I’ve heard quite a bit about your build but as far as I know I haven’t tried it out yet. Would you be willing to post it somewhere or direct me to a post you made of it? It seems like fun and I’d love to try it sometime just to Yolo on thief and on stream.

Meme 15 characters ftw

Ario.8964:

Like:
-Backstab damage being something that scares people (people other than glass cannons)
-The 1200 range on cluster bomb
-I’d like to be able to use stealth in pvp in an effective way (meaning be able to invest a bit in SA for things like d/d thief without gimping my team or myself)
-Not getting 1 shot by clases that stack might and tankiness but get guaranteed crits via traits and sigils to take 5k hp from an auto attack (of all things)
-Not having our only reliable and cosistent condi removal be tied to stealth (so basically more defense against condi outside of SA)

Feel free to add to the list things you’d like to see the thief get back or get buffed in. WITHIN REASON and please no rage comments, this is a discussion to provide some contructive feedback for buffs that thief could use.

Believe it or not, I agree with this completely. Ive been analyzing thieves and trying to figure out why they are broken in this game.

And lets take Mighty Blow from a guardian running hammer. Its hard to land on a thief (as it should be), but when it does, it crits for 4-5K at best with a guardian running a significant amount of power while the thief is revealed.

Mighty blow should be a one shot from a guard running 2.3k power and ascended gear to a thief not in stealth if they land it.

In other words, while not in stealth you should take a significant ac hit and have all of the above.

And an ac buff while in stealth to the upper side of medium armor or lower side of heavy.

@nightblood
The problem with ac buffing in stealth is that it further frontloads SA as the premier option for Thief defense. Whereas, we need to be pushing for better overall options in Acro.

The reason I left this game wasn’t so much the economy going to bleh (with 13+gold for 100gems vs. when I started) or wvw being exactly the same for 2+ years, or even the ascended gear making the game that much more unfair for me since it takes me forever to get any of it so everyone else is ahead of me…

But what they did to thief, trashing almost all of thief’s fast defensive mechanisms (sword 2 cast delay, d/d 3 evade too short, pistol 5 now blinding q2s, stealth reveals like sic’em, vigor trait reductions, etc.), fast initiative recovery mechanisms (SA init trait with stealth, plus the crit strike +init trait, plus the acro? +init trait q10s) and nerfing thief damage without giving us any healing power increases to offset all the damage thief is inevitably going to take since it takes longer for thief to deal its own. Plus, they gave us a bunch of wonderfully useless “new GM traits” that are all wastes of trait slots.

These things are why I left the game. I still visit the forum to see if any new patches have offset all the worthlessness that is thief vs at least half the other professions (it’s impossible for any thief build to kill several professions’ builds, and IMO this shouldn’t be possible with a BALANCED profession design), but lately all they do are these stupid living world updates.

Thief is niche, very very niche. Kills nubs, kills glass enemies if they aren’t expecting it and aren’t very good, kills other thieves. Otherwise useless. People say all pro teams have one thief…it’s definitely not because they’re good at 1v1, but because of other things like SR or harass with teammate help. In most respects, thief is only 3/4 value max compared to many other profs like guardian, warrior, ele, engi, etc.

I don’t know of any other profession that has 0 builds that can counter/beat at least any build that someone else makes, like rock paper scissors. All other professions can counter any build any other profession uses with an appropriate counter build…except thief. Thief can stalemate, but not win. It has no counter builds for several professions’ builds to allow a chance of winning.

The rest of the GW2 community complained and whined until they got more dps, more ranged dps, more aoe dps, more condition spam, more condi clearance, stealth negation and more mobility than thief (though not all of you got this, a few did!). GJ community! Not sure what you can still gripe about thief regarding…

IMO thief deserves and needs fast skill activation because it has no hp or defense. It needs fast blinds because it can’t take hits. It needs good heals because it has a low HP pool and is going to take significant damage when trying to deal any from melee range.

- More backstab damage (10k isn’t enough) – VS glass and when dps-specced a thief can do this in wvw. 10k bs doesn’t happen in PvP without extreme might from another source, no matter how you spec

- More regen (330/seconds in stealth isn’t enough) – requiring you to spec 6 points into stealth arts so you can have a few seconds of regen while not being able to do any damage, and Everyone in PvP 1v1 complains about this skill because it can actually give the thief a fighting chance

- More stealth (perma stealth isn’t enough) – and doesn’t do any damage to the enemy except the c/d every 4 seconds, which has to be landed every time to be successful

- More TPs (5-6 TPs aren’t enough) – sword tps that don’t work when stunned/disabled/etc., and cost significant init to use, and two utilities, one with long cd (shadowstep) and one that basically sacrifices an escape mechanism (signet)

- More blinds (perma blind isn’t enough) – permablind was a lie before, and it’s REALLY a lie now that pistol 5 blinds q2s instead of q1s

- More dodges (perma vigor and Feline Grace aren’t enough) – Permavigor? Really? They nerfed thief vigor stats so this is impossible (except maybe with huge food boosters), and yes a prof with no access to non-stolen protection, no resistance to damage except when thief can’t deal any itself and has to spend 6 points to get an inferior GM trait, does need to have plenty of dodges…a shade less than 3 vs your 2? How unfair that is

- More presence in PvP (1 thief in every top team isn’t enough) – This isn’t true either, but good try

Advent.6193:

@nightblood
The problem with ac buffing in stealth is that it further frontloads SA as the premier option for Thief defense. Whereas, we need to be pushing for better overall options in Acro.

O.K. but my stance still holds on the crit from a heavy class on some giant weapon should pretty much destroy a thief in one blow.

Once again, Mighty blow is hard to land on a thief, they are fast, they move quick. Mighty blow is pretty telegrpahed in nature. (All that makes a ton of sense, you should be good at evasion, it should be hard to hit you with something that big and with that animation to warn you of it coming so you can use evasion to get out of the way) The fact that the crit from that mighty blow on a guard running 2.3k damage only does 4K damage to you guys?

Maybe a debuf to ac on the stealth trait line w/ a buff while in stealth.

I know I keep hearing from many and all people “But that is a heavy class, you should be slow, you should have a hard time catching thieves, should it be any other way? If you want to play something different then play a lighter class.” This is the constant I hear all the time about guards.

And while I dont want to agree with them they are right. The reason I dont want to agree is just in that, when I do catch you, and I land some big blast like mighty blow it doesnt do enough damage in one hit to counter the speed/mobility/stealth/damage ratio thieves can deliver. So if the above of heavy class definition exists and is true, then the times it does land, the lighter class should be downed or exceptionally close to downed in that one hit.

I mean I can hit a zerk necro for almost 8k at times with that same mighty blow, you guys take far less damage when that crits and have far more ability to evade. The evasion part I understand, but if it does hit and crit, you should be very close to death.

Guards don’t lose to thieves. They may not be able to kill them every time (sorry for the disappointment!) but they don’t lose to them. Any guard losing to a thief really should stop playing this game ;\

Someone remove that pitiful damage from Choking Gas

Form.8741:

Guards don’t lose to thieves. They may not be able to kill them every time (sorry for the disappointment!) but they don’t lose to them. Any guard losing to a thief really should stop playing this game ;\

True there, I beat many thieves but either have to be locked into scepter or sword focus build of which I hate scepter, dont like the feel of it. I can play it, but dont like it. And if its a smart thief its a simple kite game for the thief.

General medi build is horrible when it comes to outnumbered situations. So you rebuild to that and all of a sudden thief is now viable against you again. I can 1v5 warriors and kill at least one on my current build. Necros, forget about it they have no chance.

Rangers not a problem, havent had a chance to test it out with a good mes though.

And honestly havent had a chance to test it out against a thief as lately Im seeing them run 3-4 at a time.

In sPvP there wasnt a single thief that could muster enough power to be significant. WvW its different.

I paid for this game and spent money and tend to spend money here and there on gems, if I dont see a buff else where on other toons or a nerf on thief, Im going to spend my money else where.

After i read thread post; Example: it is like asking a zoo if they can let lions out of their cage?. There is good reason why the zoo keep lions lock inside cage. Same with Arena net; there is good reason why thief was nerf and a little limited because they can still instant kill. Nerf to thief is like tranquilizer to lions. Even though sometime it is not 100% but it keep them from getting worse. If the lions resist tranquilizer, the zoo increase it more, like same for thief by arena net. That is all

DarkSyze.8627:

After i read thread post; Example: it is like asking a zoo if they can let lions out of their cage?. There is good reason why the zoo keep lions lock inside cage. Same with Arena net; there is good reason why thief was nerf and a little limited because they can still instant kill. Nerf to thief is like tranquilizer to lions. Even though sometime it is not 100% but it keep them from getting worse. If the lions resist tranquilizer, the zoo increase it more, like same for thief by arena net. That is all

yeah meanwhile we have tanks on the streets murdering people aka celestial classes

Cynz.9437:

DarkSyze.8627:

After i read thread post; Example: it is like asking a zoo if they can let lions out of their cage?. There is good reason why the zoo keep lions lock inside cage. Same with Arena net; there is good reason why thief was nerf and a little limited because they can still instant kill. Nerf to thief is like tranquilizer to lions. Even though sometime it is not 100% but it keep them from getting worse. If the lions resist tranquilizer, the zoo increase it more, like same for thief by arena net. That is all

yeah meanwhile we have tanks on the streets murdering people aka celestial classes

i agree with you, so that is why i am pushing hard for arena net to take celestial class problem serious. I am not say thief is not threat but have more threat is not good. It do not make sense for arena net to increase problem instead of work with 1 problem: thief.

I do not understand why arena net think increasing problem is ok because it is not ok. Because it give more player more reason to leave: quit game and spend more time with other mmo game company who want less problem than add more problem.

Arena net need to be serious about problem in this game: for them to increase problem is bad idea: there is nothing fun about it and it will decrease their reputation more and decrease Guild Wars 2 reputation more.

Focus on 1 problem arena net – thief class instead add 2+ more problem-celestial engineer, elementalist,

“why add more problems when you can deal with just 1” ?, “Less problem, less headache”, “Fewer problems, Fewer Worries”, “Less you worry about your problems, the easier they will be to solve”.

nightblood.7910:

True there, I beat many thieves but either have to be locked into scepter or sword focus build of which I hate scepter, dont like the feel of it. I can play it, but dont like it. And if its a smart thief its a simple kite game for the thief.

General medi build is horrible when it comes to outnumbered situations. So you rebuild to that and all of a sudden thief is now viable against you again. I can 1v5 warriors and kill at least one on my current build. Necros, forget about it they have no chance.

Rangers not a problem, havent had a chance to test it out with a good mes though.

And honestly havent had a chance to test it out against a thief as lately Im seeing them run 3-4 at a time.

In sPvP there wasnt a single thief that could muster enough power to be significant. WvW its different.

I paid for this game and spent money and tend to spend money here and there on gems, if I dont see a buff else where on other toons or a nerf on thief, Im going to spend my money else where.

I’m really confused as to what you think is wrong with thief. They can’t muster enough power to be significant and are only marginally more powerful in WvW. You beat plenty of them with one build and are capable of losing to them with another which is apparently capable of going 1v5 with Warriors and gives necros no shot.

Above, you complain about thief mobility and that they are so hard to catch that when you finally do hit them it should be GG. The thing is, with the exception of Condi thief, a thief that you can’t hit is as much a threat to you as you are to him.

The primary line of defense for a thief is stealth. A thief in stealth does 0 DPS and can still take damage. Unlike every other class that survives through regen, prot, aegis, stability, condi cleanse, damage reducing cooldowns, etc. The thief has absolutely none of this except for rarely-active, conditional regeneration sources and condition cleanse that requires you to sit in stealth. Most Thief builds are also running full glass cannon stats just to have their damage matter at all.

Beyond stealth, the only thing left for thieves is not getting hit at all by dodging and being straight up out of range, which also cripples thief DPS.

Thieves are good at dictating whether or not they are fighting / fightable and that is the only thing they have going for them at the moment. Back when GW2 launched, D/D thief would run around and drop every class in a short burst, back out, and repeat 30 seconds later. For 6 months they only rolled out nerfs to S/D and mobility. Now we burst less than many classes and still have all those misplaced mobility nerfs.

morbidillusion.2759:

nightblood.7910:

True there, I beat many thieves but either have to be locked into scepter or sword focus build of which I hate scepter, dont like the feel of it. I can play it, but dont like it. And if its a smart thief its a simple kite game for the thief.

General medi build is horrible when it comes to outnumbered situations. So you rebuild to that and all of a sudden thief is now viable against you again. I can 1v5 warriors and kill at least one on my current build. Necros, forget about it they have no chance.

Rangers not a problem, havent had a chance to test it out with a good mes though.

And honestly havent had a chance to test it out against a thief as lately Im seeing them run 3-4 at a time.

In sPvP there wasnt a single thief that could muster enough power to be significant. WvW its different.

I paid for this game and spent money and tend to spend money here and there on gems, if I dont see a buff else where on other toons or a nerf on thief, Im going to spend my money else where.

I’m really confused as to what you think is wrong with thief. They can’t muster enough power to be significant and are only marginally more powerful in WvW. You beat plenty of them with one build and are capable of losing to them with another which is apparently capable of going 1v5 with Warriors and gives necros no shot.

Above, you complain about thief mobility and that they are so hard to catch that when you finally do hit them it should be GG. The thing is, with the exception of Condi thief, a thief that you can’t hit is as much a threat to you as you are to him.

The primary line of defense for a thief is stealth. A thief in stealth does 0 DPS and can still take damage. Unlike every other class that survives through regen, prot, aegis, stability, condi cleanse, damage reducing cooldowns, etc. The thief has absolutely none of this except for rarely-active, conditional regeneration sources and condition cleanse that requires you to sit in stealth. Most Thief builds are also running full glass cannon stats just to have their damage matter at all.

Beyond stealth, the only thing left for thieves is not getting hit at all by dodging and being straight up out of range, which also cripples thief DPS.

Thieves are good at dictating whether or not they are fighting / fightable and that is the only thing they have going for them at the moment. Back when GW2 launched, D/D thief would run around and drop every class in a short burst, back out, and repeat 30 seconds later. For 6 months they only rolled out nerfs to S/D and mobility. Now we burst less than many classes and still have all those misplaced mobility nerfs.

First you are picking apart what I said, I didnt say I could 1 v 5 warriors, they killed me in the end, but not without one dying.

sPvP is a whole different ball game where guard has the only nerfed skill from PvE and WvW. Save Yourselves. Which took all the boons and made them 5-6 sec in sPvP vs the 13-14 they should be.

Second thief stealing a daze from guard, exactly what daze did that thief steal? What in the guards kitten nal is a daze?

Third, I have easily 300 in power less in sPvP. It changes my burst as well, but your power in sPvP is unable to overcome my 20k health in sPvP quick enough. Im able to manage that no problem while I run around with about 2K power. I give up some condi clense or stab for that 20k health and rely on CoP for stab.

Yes Necros are pretty much a no go 1v1. Terorrmancer can be problemmatic, just dont fight in their fear lines, and I have 3 stun breakers, get stability from them by converting fear with CoP.

Engis, the last fight I had with one, I got kitteny after handing a necro and a warrior their deaths (separately) and well dumbly fought in the crap he threw on the ground because I got too kitteny after the other 2.

Mesmer I dont know yet.

But ultimately, you will not find an engi, mesmer, guard, warrior, ele, any class in the game that can accomplish this in WvW (no matter how good they are):

Those moments when you are not in stealth you need to be very vulnerable to attacks to strike you down before you disappear again or the amount of time in stealth needs to go away.

Specifically the first video at about 7:30. That should be impossible just as it is for any other class.

nightblood.7910:

But ultimately, you will not find an engi, mesmer, guard, warrior, ele, any class in the game that can accomplish this in WvW (no matter how good they are)
[…]
Specifically the first video at about 7:30. That should be impossible just as it is for any other class.

Well, a lot of people in wvw (and pvp oh and pve) don’t know how to play the game, their class or anything.

To your first point:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wkzPob8P3o
.

nightblood.7910:

First you are picking apart what I said, I didnt say I could 1 v 5 warriors, they killed me in the end, but not without one dying.

Nah, I’m really not. I wrote up a response to your concerns and you literally addressed nothing except that I didn’t mention the details of the 1v5. Going 1v5 and killing one is amazing unless we’re talking about 5 up-leveled noob players.

sPvP is a whole different ball game where guard has the only nerfed skill from PvE and WvW. Save Yourselves. Which took all the boons and made them 5-6 sec in sPvP vs the 13-14 they should be.

I’m not sure what exactly you’re saying, but thieves receive nerfs in sPvP also such as the nerfed daze duration on sword 1 and revealed lasting an additional second.

Second thief stealing a daze from guard, exactly what daze did that thief steal? What in the guards kitten nal is a daze?

It steals a mace and clobbers you with it. They made it a daze instead of knockdown / stun for balancing purposes but I suppose we could petition ANET to buff it to a knockdown.

In regards to the video – it’s condi thief. If condi thief gets nerfed it in any way specific way, rather than conditions as a whole getting nerfed it will be a joke.

But really, I would desperately love to hear your response to why thief mobility should be nerfed when it is literally their own form of defense aside from stealth which and both of them cause their DPS to drop to zero or close.

I mean, do people actually think there is a class worse than thief for WvW? Thief is horrible in zerg and only really has a place in party-roaming because it simulates sPvP which is the only place they should be played.

O.K> lets review what I said about mobility:

Once again, Mighty blow is hard to land on a thief, they are fast, they move quick. Mighty blow is pretty telegrpahed in nature. (All that makes a ton of sense, you should be good at evasion, it should be hard to hit you with something that big and with that animation to warn you of it coming so you can use evasion to get out of the way)

Wait guardian hard counters power thief.

Why is a guardian complaining about thieves?

They need to revert CnD, mug, BP, and cluster bomb nerfs.

T raw.4658:

Wait guardian hard counters power thief.

Why is a guardian complaining about thieves?

They need to revert CnD, mug, BP, and cluster bomb nerfs.

I would guess, because he isn’t running a spec that counters thieves but still wants to counter them in that spec.

Yeah pretty much, meta medi counters it, Im not running medi completely anymore as in situations of outnumber, it blows up entirely too easy, as a matter of fact I blow up most meta medi guards entirely too easy.

The one reason it counters power thief is the number of blocks, they just kill you first for the most part. A thief fighting them is about whether or not the medi can kill you before his blocks run out.

Because HP and armor is not there. Which makes it a 1v1 class, one add and youre pretty much done unless they are absolutely dumb founded. IT has problems with a lot of other classes except thief. So I can either fight thieves or everyone else.

Advent.6193:

Eh’d. I’d like Venoms reworked completely, Traps altered to be slot-worthy without a runeset, some acceptable balance between Acrobatics and Shadow Arts as sources of a Thief’s condi-clear/sustain options … oh, and P/P upgraded.
Did I miss anything?

I agree with everything you said and I don’t think there’s anything to even add to this list.

I’m pretty sure guards counters power thief period. Not all hard counter but counter none the less

Guard counters us pretty well except what many don’t know is that shortbow pretty much counters guardian (well medi guard at least).

Look I get it, you guys got something good and awesome and you dont want to lose that. SO you down play it. But a thief is the only add that can walk right in and take half my health, thats bs to a heavy class and then when I actually hit you with a hammer when you do add it only takes a small amount of health. 2 power thieves and Im definitely in trouble. And Im talking about good thieves not some idiot that thinks hes just going to gg me real quick with no work. Yeah Ill definitely make a new thief hurt but Ive put a lot of work in guards, but an experienced one can be very hard, two is overwhelming. And IM tired of thieves jumping in a fight im about to win and now all of a sudden I have almost no health because I was at half and about to gg some dude that I definitely just overpowered and out maneuvered.

Thieves force people to zerg because they dont want to just hang out and get ganked because there is like 5 of them sitting outside spawn and you cant shoo em off even when a 30 man zerg comes through. They run off for a minute and come right back. They should be able to be quickly caught and sent back to spawn with no stacks if they hang out there for too long.

You get in a 1v1 with someone ohh look OP thief just jumped in and hit my heavy armor with a dagger and somehow that one move just did more damage to me than this guy Im fighting did in total through out the fight. And when I turn around to blast em with a hammer, he only takes 4-5K damage.

If this was a 1v1 game, no thieves wouldnt be overpowered, but the fact that they can jump in a fight and just immediately change that fight to your loss no matter the situation because you dont see them coming and you cant see them coming? Thats BS.

Even a ranger and its long range cant change a fight on me like that. They have to finish their rapid shot for that to happen and you can definitely dodge the majority of the damage unless youre caught with no energy.

And yes I can teleport to you, but its an easy dodge for you if I burst with tele.

Obviously Im not discussing the thief who is 2 months into playing one. Im discussing long time thieves that are very good. The difference between thieves in t2 and t3 is dramatic(in general, IM sure there are good ones in each tier). The thieves I fought in t5 and t6 were no where close to the ones I see in t2 on average. Im probably not even discussing average thieves right now as to what I have to contend with except for in a zerg situation and then I just find the thieves and isolate them out of the fight and kill them. Worse case scenerio they get away and are not able to screw with my backline.

What Im tired of is going out of spawn/waypointed keep and ohh look there is 5 thieves hanging right outside. Thus the other post about thieves being toxic.

In other words, there is definitely a point when thieves becomes overpowered. They have the potential of being the most dominant class in the game, whether someone who sucks doesnt reach that potential or not doesnt mean its not overpowered. And its not due to a difference in experience of people its due to the class mechanic itself. Its just too much instant damage with stealth or not squishy enough.

You dont pay enough price for that damage and stealth. I pay a significant price for power and damage through low defense, if I want a higher defense I pay for it in damage. Youre the only ones that doesnt have to pay for defense and on top of it the 10K crit is just too much.

Your inherent health pool needs to be knocked down to that of eles and guards or you need to go down to light armor ratings or you need to lose some damage. You got to lose something for stealth and mobility. Even Mesmers have to wear light armor and they have a 3rd of the stealth you do.

You dont pay a price between defense and damage in this game like everyone else does. We have to balance defense and power. You dont have to really worry about that like other classes do due to extended stealth. The end and that is an absolute truth.

For you just about every fight is a one on one fight unless you choose it not to be, everyone else its a free for all and they have to balance health, ac, and power to compensate getting jumped by others.You dont because of stealth. Its entirely too low risk for you allowing you to spec too much damage for that low risk.

Ya I could run out in WvW full nomads/clerics but couldnt kill anything if I wanted to but it is a low risk build. You guys need more risk in your builds or less reward. Its just that simple.

You realize thief has the same health pool as guard right?

Now to address your other points (some of which are valid, some is just nonsense)

First thing in your argument, we are really talking about spvp here, not wvw as stealth covers the thieves need for defense but in pvp it’s completely different. Meta builds in pvp aren’t built around using stealth they have to find alternative methods to try to survive. Only issue with that is the fact that we have to be super glassy in order to do the same damage as the zerker warriors with 3k armor and the guardians with blocks and extreme healing ability coupled with damage. So all we are attempting to discuss is if there is a way we can give builds that aren’t built around the shadow arts trait line and the stealth mechanic a way to survive more reliably in fights. Yes we have damage mitigation via blinds and dodge but theres virtually no way for us to deal with damage that we don’t manage to mitigate from our 2 sources.

Non stealth builds lack sustain and reliable condi clear and thus are found to be on the weaker side of meta in terms of pvp balance. In wvw stealthless builds could still use a buff but it’s not as big a problem as wvw is more open and not built around standing on a point fighting toe to toe with other tankier specs.

Now address your concerns about damage:
First thing I want to mention is that you said your mighty blow would hit for 4-5k damage when it hit. That’s pretty darn strong as that’s only about 1k damage behind a backstab (guaranteed crit vs full glass cannon). Plus your mighty blow has a very low cd and has no requirements to deal extra damage (BS relying on positioning for the damage bonus). The 10k backstabs you’re seeing on a heavy class just don’t exist in pvp so those numbers can’t be used in this discussion. I also have yet to see a heavy armor class get hit by a 10k backstab when they aren’t running full zerk glass cannon specs (And I main thief [despite the fact that I multiclass I do spend more time on thief in general]) With my experience on other classes I feel there are some part of the thief that really are lacking in terms of damage.

Now you mentioned thieves coming in and killing you after you were about to stomp someone, Well the thing is there’s not much else a thief can do. You’re an easy target because your skills were on cooldown. If you had them all up you probably would have gg’ed the thief as well. The sad truth is that we have been forced into this roll and many of us would like to see that changed but by limiting us by complaining about our ability to kill something that’s completely defenseless youre stopping the changes from ever happening.

I get it, thieves can be frustrating but that’s just the way we have to be now because if we don’t find some way to compete for a space in the meta we will just disappear.

Oh and another thing:
Thieves sacrifice more than you would think when building. They don’t get tankiness naturally, they have to spec for “active” defense rather than the passives that everyone else gets to have. Thief has to go full glass or near full glass to do any sort of damage to other players and that seems to be ignored because of stealth. Stealth does not prevent damage it only prevents you seeing the damage you’re doing. I have a whole thread on how to deal with stealth if that’s what you need and I’m sure I could dig it up and link it here for you and others.

I hope I addressed your concerns. If you have any more please say so and I will address them as best I can as well.

O.K. I stand corrected on health. You guys create a lot of vile in people for a reason. You guys make fun of it here but the mass complaints about thieves show a problem.

People arent in here complaining constantly because youre not constantly putting them in no win situations because you have a class mechanic of too much insta damage that is extremely hard to counter if not impossible in too many situations.

CnD off walls?

Bottom line in a game where visual understanding of your target, reacting to animations, reacting to environment and there is some class that negates every single bit of that leaving you with no way to react or counter it because you dont know its there well thats called entirely too unfair. And itsd class mechanic that is doing it. I really dont mind your damage, if I could react to it coming.

Im sure many have said the line “Well I was about to gg that guy except that thief showed up.”

Stealth is extremely powerful in a game that doesnt rely on radar for enemy detection.

I mean we even get a red circle on the ground to let us know where a cannon is about to hit and it generally does less damage than you can. The most damage in the game (Necro Wells) require some significant coordination with many people setting it up to get the full potential of it due to all the animation on the ground. In small groups a power necro is a setting duck.

Ohh and that Mighty blow is a 4 sec cd, but its animated, good players dodge more often than not unless I immob them and that has a looooong cd and is easily dodged by the right person.

If everyone had a thief detector, I dont think anyone would be complaining. We rely on visual understanding of the environment to play this game in every single aspect but when thieves come into play.,

A warrior adds, well Ive rotated that fight around enough to see them coming, I know its going to happen, I need to save a stun breaker. A ranger add from a distance, well he might get a couple of rapid fire shots off on me.

Thief, thsat fight needs to be a 1v1 fight and I have to be fully concentrated on you and not worried about anything else to beat you. I have to use aegis, the tell tale blind, my own one AOE blind, and every AOE I have.

People can learn to fight a mes, engi, and whatever else by fighting them more and more to understand their animations and their tell tale signs. Even a mes, mighty blow and ring of warding screws up a shatter in a heart beat. Killing clones with AOE seems to be the way to fight those guys. I dont know yet I havent gotten a chance. Regardless its animated. Even them as an Add, I can reset that fight sand get out before they add anything significant to it.

I dont mind getting gg’s by players that out played me. Thats just something to learn from, but when I get gg’d and there is no counter in the game to it. Thats a problem.

The reason I call for more squishy thieves is you need to pay a price. A thief revealed open field shouldnt be so quick and easy to jump back into stealth. In a game where we rely on sight stealth is a huge defense.

We need something, we hit you in stealth numbers pop and you are revealed. I hit you with a sword while in stealth I should feel that therefore I should have a way of knowing that happened.

Long Cooldown on stealth after BackStab so when you do this you risk the chance of exposure. Your risk is too low. It needs to be higher to make you think twice before just running up out of no where.

And 5k is a significant amount of damage, half of your insta damage and severely animated. So what does that tell you about 10K backstabs if 5k is significant? Ohh and you disappeared right after doing so.

Thieves should be having to find the perfect situation to jump in as their risk level should be extremely high. You add to a fight out of no where with that much damage, you need to be risking a 10k hit yourself.

Why shouldnt you risk an insta 10K hit? Everyone else does because of you.

Ario.8964:

Like:
-Backstab damage being something that scares people (people other than glass cannons)
-The 1200 range on cluster bomb
-I’d like to be able to use stealth in pvp in an effective way (meaning be able to invest a bit in SA for things like d/d thief without gimping my team or myself)
-Not getting 1 shot by clases that stack might and tankiness but get guaranteed crits via traits and sigils to take 5k hp from an auto attack (of all things)
-Not having our only reliable and cosistent condi removal be tied to stealth (so basically more defense against condi outside of SA)

Feel free to add to the list things you’d like to see the thief get back or get buffed in. WITHIN REASON and please no rage comments, this is a discussion to provide some contructive feedback for buffs that thief could use.

I don’t appreciate being trolled

SoulSin.5682:

Someone remove that pitiful damage from Choking Gas

I wish they’d of at least gave it decent damage but they really did make it pathetic as ****. You can’t even spend your entire ini bar at long range because of how slow Cluster Bomb is. It’d of been nice to DPS with Choking and Bomb together to use it up but nope.

nightblood.7910:

1. 2 power thieves and Im definitely in trouble.

2. but an experienced one can be very hard, two is overwhelming.

3. And IM tired of thieves jumping in a fight im about to win and now all of a sudden I have almost no health because I was at half and about to gg some dude that I definitely just overpowered and out maneuvered.

4. You get in a 1v1 with someone ohh look OP thief just jumped in and hit my heavy armor with a dagger and somehow that one move just did more damage to me than this guy Im fighting did in total through out the fight.

5. If this was a 1v1 game, no thieves wouldnt be overpowered, but the fact that they can jump in a fight and just immediately change that fight to your loss no matter the situation because you dont see them coming and you cant see them coming? Thats BS.

6. You dont pay enough price for that damage and stealth. I pay a significant price for power and damage through low defense, if I want a higher defense I pay for it in damage. Youre the only ones that doesnt have to pay for defense

7. Your inherent health pool needs to be knocked down to that of eles and guards or you need to go down to light armor ratings or you need to lose some damage. You got to lose something for stealth and mobility. Even Mesmers have to wear light armor and they have a 3rd of the stealth you do.

Quote above has been cut, nothing added, only removed things to make the responses below clear.

Since you took the time to make a long post, to answer some of your above queries:

1. Two Zerker power builds of any class, and your in trouble. Point invalid.

2. An experienced thief is hard for you, two experienced thieves is too much for you. Sounds balanced. Point invalid.

3. Your in a fight, at half health and used cooldowns. Any class “jumping” in with every skill off of cooldown and you are in trouble. Point invalid.

4. “One move”, (0.5 Sometimes cluster bomb) 1. Steal. 2. Cloak and Dagger. 3. Backstab. 4. Fire sigil. 5. Air sigil. 6. Heartseeker. To be honest, if I was hit by six of your moves at once, I would also be in trouble. Point invalid.

5. Your in a fight and suddenly it becomes a 2v1, and you lose. Sounds balanced. The fact we can’t do it from 1200 range like a Ranger/Mesmer/etc/etc. The fact you don’t see us coming. Try using all your cooldowns to close distances and its the same. Everyone has movement skills. Point invalid.

6. We have to trait for damage as well. Don’t understand your point here to be honest so just going to go ahead and say: point invalid.

7. You seem to think we don’t lose anything for everything we have. Thieves have no access to protection. None. That’s 20% less defense for you. We have no access to stability (apart for 1 second after coming out of stealth), so all stuns work on us. As a guardian that has both boons alot of the time you do not realise the disadvantage this is. (Mesmer steal, boon steal does give protection/stability, but that’s requires other classes, not from ourselves.) So, point invalid.

Hope some of what I have replied has been constructive. My recommendation is you role a thief for awhile in spvp since it won’t need to be leveled. Then come back here. As a Guardian you counter thieves with nearly every build, enjoy it.

For your other post, while in stealth we can still take full damage. Aegis, protection, invul skills are all better than stealth.

Nightblood, I’m having trouble understanding what you’re trying to say. I mean no disrespect and I’m certainly not making fun of you in any way but I’m not getting what you’re arguing.

I’m debating the potential to give non stealth builds more reliable ways to survive in the current meta so we aren’t taking 6k from every attack that hits us and you seem to be arguing that it shouldn’t happen because of issues you have with stealth. That’s my understanding of your posts but I could be wrong so if you could explain it a bit more I’d really appreciate it as I actually enjoy being able to discuss this but I also like to understand what you’re saying so I can give you the most effective response possible.

nightblood.7910:

O.K. I stand corrected on health. You guys create a lot of vile in people for a reason. You guys make fun of it here but the mass complaints about thieves show a problem.

People arent in here complaining constantly because youre not constantly putting them in no win situations because you have a class mechanic of too much insta damage that is extremely hard to counter if not impossible in too many situations.

CnD off walls?

Bottom line in a game where visual understanding of your target, reacting to animations, reacting to environment and there is some class that negates every single bit of that leaving you with no way to react or counter it because you dont know its there well thats called entirely too unfair. And itsd class mechanic that is doing it. I really dont mind your damage, if I could react to it coming.

Im sure many have said the line “Well I was about to gg that guy except that thief showed up.”

Stealth is extremely powerful in a game that doesnt rely on radar for enemy detection.

I mean we even get a red circle on the ground to let us know where a cannon is about to hit and it generally does less damage than you can. The most damage in the game (Necro Wells) require some significant coordination with many people setting it up to get the full potential of it due to all the animation on the ground. In small groups a power necro is a setting duck.

Ohh and that Mighty blow is a 4 sec cd, but its animated, good players dodge more often than not unless I immob them and that has a looooong cd and is easily dodged by the right person.

If everyone had a thief detector, I dont think anyone would be complaining. We rely on visual understanding of the environment to play this game in every single aspect but when thieves come into play.,

A warrior adds, well Ive rotated that fight around enough to see them coming, I know its going to happen, I need to save a stun breaker. A ranger add from a distance, well he might get a couple of rapid fire shots off on me.

Thief, thsat fight needs to be a 1v1 fight and I have to be fully concentrated on you and not worried about anything else to beat you. I have to use aegis, the tell tale blind, my own one AOE blind, and every AOE I have.

People can learn to fight a mes, engi, and whatever else by fighting them more and more to understand their animations and their tell tale signs. Even a mes, mighty blow and ring of warding screws up a shatter in a heart beat. Killing clones with AOE seems to be the way to fight those guys. I dont know yet I havent gotten a chance. Regardless its animated. Even them as an Add, I can reset that fight sand get out before they add anything significant to it.

I dont mind getting gg’s by players that out played me. Thats just something to learn from, but when I get gg’d and there is no counter in the game to it. Thats a problem.

The reason I call for more squishy thieves is you need to pay a price. A thief revealed open field shouldnt be so quick and easy to jump back into stealth. In a game where we rely on sight stealth is a huge defense.

We need something, we hit you in stealth numbers pop and you are revealed. I hit you with a sword while in stealth I should feel that therefore I should have a way of knowing that happened.

Long Cooldown on stealth after BackStab so when you do this you risk the chance of exposure. Your risk is too low. It needs to be higher to make you think twice before just running up out of no where.

And 5k is a significant amount of damage, half of your insta damage and severely animated. So what does that tell you about 10K backstabs if 5k is significant? Ohh and you disappeared right after doing so.

Thieves should be having to find the perfect situation to jump in as their risk level should be extremely high. You add to a fight out of no where with that much damage, you need to be risking a 10k hit yourself.

Why shouldnt you risk an insta 10K hit? Everyone else does because of you.

Very inexperienced player complaining about thieves. Every build thief has has been nerfed significantly. Only PD condi remains OP.

It’s time for you to roll thief and post your daily logs of your endeavors….i want videos with commentary