Guild Wars 2

Forum bug…

@yolo swaggins:
I respect you taking the time for a long and reasonable post. I have already acknowledged thought that in order to deal with stealth spam, Thieves need other buffs.

What you failed to explain though is, how does 2-3s of reveal after each stealth (Shadow Refuge excluded) limit your abilities. This bug only effected chain steath. Also, if this bug is a “preview” of a future balance change, then you have to see it in the context of the skill system, which will be in place then.

It was clear from my post that I do not think this ‘revealed effect’ alone would solve anything, but it is a step in the right direction when paired with reasonable buffs in other areas.

TyPin.9860:

@yolo swaggins:
I respect you taking the time for a long and reasonable post. I have already acknowledged thought that in order to deal with stealth spam, Thieves need other buffs.

What you failed to explain though is, how does 2-3s of reveal after each stealth (Shadow Refuge excluded) limit your abilities. This bug only effected chain steath. Also, if this bug is a “preview” of a future balance change, then you have to see it in the context of the skill system, which will be in place then.

It was clear from my post that I do not think this ‘revealed effect’ alone would solve anything, but it is a step in the right direction when paired with reasonable buffs in other areas.

He did explain it – sometimes one needs to chain stealth to get rid of conditions, either because more are coming in or because the most dangerous ones haven’t been cleared off. With revealed that is impossible and the conditions can’t be cleared.
If you want this bug implemented with the trait system as it is you demand thieves to be free lootbags.

So thieves are in two camps on this debate? The S/D thieves that only spam infiltrators strike and the D/P thieves that like to “turtle” for a backstab opening.

So, can we have 3s revealed in spvp now?

swinsk.6410:

So, can we have 3s revealed in spvp now?

If only. Otherwise they need to add sad violin music to follow stealth builds around in spvp to compliment the depressing feel it brings.

Jana.6831:

TyPin.9860:

@yolo swaggins:
I respect you taking the time for a long and reasonable post. I have already acknowledged thought that in order to deal with stealth spam, Thieves need other buffs.

What you failed to explain though is, how does 2-3s of reveal after each stealth (Shadow Refuge excluded) limit your abilities. This bug only effected chain steath. Also, if this bug is a “preview” of a future balance change, then you have to see it in the context of the skill system, which will be in place then.

It was clear from my post that I do not think this ‘revealed effect’ alone would solve anything, but it is a step in the right direction when paired with reasonable buffs in other areas.

He did explain it – sometimes one needs to chain stealth to get rid of conditions, either because more are coming in or because the most dangerous ones haven’t been cleared off. With revealed that is impossible and the conditions can’t be cleared.
If you want this bug implemented with the trait system as it is you demand thieves to be free lootbags.

So very frequent low cool down condition cleansing in combination with stealth is not enough? Your argument actually is that you want unlimited condition cleansing in combination with stealth. I am at a loss here.

But it actually doesn’t matter. I clearly stated that this “bug” alone would not fix things and thieves need compensation. Why are you guys coming up with your straw mans over and over again. It seems like you simply want to silence any “other” voice instead of actually discuss the issue.

Fixed soooo the show is over?

Still buggy but at least it’s seen as one.

TyPin.9860:

Jana.6831:

TyPin.9860:

@yolo swaggins: snip

He did explain it – sometimes one needs to chain stealth to get rid of conditions, either because more are coming in or because the most dangerous ones haven’t been cleared off. With revealed that is impossible and the conditions can’t be cleared.
If you want this bug implemented with the trait system as it is you demand thieves to be free lootbags.

So very frequent low cool down condition cleansing in combination with stealth is not enough? Your argument actually is that you want unlimited condition cleansing in combination with stealth. I am at a loss here.

But it actually doesn’t matter. I clearly stated that this “bug” alone would not fix things and thieves need compensation. Why are you guys coming up with your straw mans over and over again. It seems like you simply want to silence any “other” voice instead of actually discuss the issue.

i’m actually a thief main and i think 1-1.5s revealed if not attacking from stealth should be implemented
the bug with stealth stacking & SR however was obviously not intended and it’s good that they removed that – should have overworked some mesmer stealth skills like veil that dont actually use “stealth” like from Thieves SR and then added 1-1,5s reveal if not attacking from stealth as that shuts down perma stealth pretty affectively and in real game play doesnt really hurt you

when youre talking about compensation though thats easy:
anet better work on last refuge
while giving us decent condi remove apart from SE in SA (sth people asked for for a long time now)
while thinking about reworking the critical strike’s line in HoT as it’s the weakest line presented so far
while maybe not nerfing the nice active play encouraging trait line acrobatics in HoT due to feline grace (dont come with dodge spam now… of course there are a lot of dodges going on in a s/d 20066 build… because thats litterally the only defense that build has alongside frequent ports which cost initiative… that build doesnt really have any burst to speak of)

TyPin.9860:

So very frequent low cool down condition cleansing in combination with stealth is not enough? Your argument actually is that you want unlimited condition cleansing in combination with stealth. I am at a loss here.

But it actually doesn’t matter. I clearly stated that this “bug” alone would not fix things and thieves need compensation. Why are you guys coming up with your straw mans over and over again. It seems like you simply want to silence any “other” voice instead of actually discuss the issue.

To be fair, the ones I listed can get extremely close to unlimited low CD condition cleanse. Thieves have also been discussing issues like these for years and it comes to the same conclusion: people who hate thieves want free lootbags by destroying their defensive mechanics because they do not fully understand and do not want to fully understand the class.

But the thief forum is what you get when most of the community dumps all of their toxicity into one corner of the game and the company does nothing to stop it (if not encouraging it). It festers into a pit of trolls and hard-kittenes where ideas coming into the corner never thrive. It is that toxicity you are experiencing right now.

At least you have some sense, but you need to open up your mind a little more. Stealth and initiative is sensitive. The initiative changes made on Thief Exodus Day in 2013 alone were enough to kitten off the community. For the next few weeks, the number of thief characters in the game dropped because players were either shelving or deleting their thieves. Think about what would happen if stealth was heavily nerfed without good compensation.

That doesn’t mean I disagree with you entirely. Having 1-2 second reveals applied to the end of a stealth chain will not hurt much except for CnD chain stealth. But viable buffs need to be a priority in a discussion before thieves will start agreeing to nerfs.

TyPin.9860:

So very frequent low cool down condition cleansing in combination with stealth is not enough? Your argument actually is that you want unlimited condition cleansing in combination with stealth. I am at a loss here.

But it actually doesn’t matter. I clearly stated that this “bug” alone would not fix things and thieves need compensation. Why are you guys coming up with your straw mans over and over again. It seems like you simply want to silence any “other” voice instead of actually discuss the issue.

What’s your point now?
I explained to you why thieves need to be able to chain stealth – that is all- if that isn’t good enough for you I can’t help you as that’s how the class works- I didn’t state any opinion or anything – I just explained a fact to you.

Tarkan.5609:

i’m actually a thief main and i think 1-1.5s revealed if not attacking from stealth should be implemented

Yeah sure – I’ve had tons of troubles yesterday, not only in wvw but also fractals because my thief was broken – it’s always refreshing to hear that “main thieves” think that thief should be nerfed in this way. You might jump around a bit with S/D but that is not everything the class has got and D/x and even P/D needs stealth for condi cleanse – so please think about your fellow thieves before you state that a nerf like this bug would be great.

TyPin.9860:

Jana.6831:

TyPin.9860:

@yolo swaggins:
I respect you taking the time for a long and reasonable post. I have already acknowledged thought that in order to deal with stealth spam, Thieves need other buffs.

What you failed to explain though is, how does 2-3s of reveal after each stealth (Shadow Refuge excluded) limit your abilities. This bug only effected chain steath. Also, if this bug is a “preview” of a future balance change, then you have to see it in the context of the skill system, which will be in place then.

It was clear from my post that I do not think this ‘revealed effect’ alone would solve anything, but it is a step in the right direction when paired with reasonable buffs in other areas.

He did explain it – sometimes one needs to chain stealth to get rid of conditions, either because more are coming in or because the most dangerous ones haven’t been cleared off. With revealed that is impossible and the conditions can’t be cleared.
If you want this bug implemented with the trait system as it is you demand thieves to be free lootbags.

So very frequent low cool down condition cleansing in combination with stealth is not enough? Your argument actually is that you want unlimited condition cleansing in combination with stealth. I am at a loss here.

But it actually doesn’t matter. I clearly stated that this “bug” alone would not fix things and thieves need compensation. Why are you guys coming up with your straw mans over and over again. It seems like you simply want to silence any “other” voice instead of actually discuss the issue.

The onus should be on you as to why stealth spam is a problem. Also remember they have the lowest health pool.

Jana.6831:

Tarkan.5609:

i’m actually a thief main and i think 1-1.5s revealed if not attacking from stealth should be implemented

Yeah sure – I’ve had tons of troubles yesterday, not only in wvw but also fractals because my thief was broken – it’s always refreshing to hear that “main thieves” think that thief should be nerfed in this way. You might jump around a bit with S/D but that is not everything the class has got and D/x and even P/D needs stealth for condi cleanse – so please think about your fellow thieves before you state that a nerf like this bug would be great.

dont worry i’m not as stupid as you seem to like me to be
i thought about it and if you read my whole post you would have seen that stealth stacking – which caused the main problems – was something i said definitely shouldnt be changed especially in this way
but try to explain me how 1s reveal after you get out of stealth is supposed to be a major problems… you cleanse at least 2 condis while in stealth if you dont attack/attack at the last second and you could restealth with blinding powder/SR/… while still in stealth to not even get the revealed debuff
the only thing that this revealed changed was perma stealth (that anet didnt want anyway)

and btw i’m not only playing s/d 20066 but also d/p 60206 so it would also change my d/p playstyle

@Jana:

If you want this bug implemented with the trait system as it is you demand thieves to be free lootbags.

This was the sentence I had a problem with. Because I clearly stated that this is not, what I want, yet you seemed to use this sentence to straw man my position.

@yolo swaggins:

Think about what would happen if stealth was heavily nerfed without good compensation.

And this is why I am not advocating to nerf stealth without compensation.

@Daniel Handler:

The onus should be on you as to why stealth spam is a problem. Also remember they have the lowest health pool.

You are correct, I did not explain fully, why chain stealth is an issue. Well I explained one instance: Dungeon content skipping. Dungeons are far far faaaaaaaaaaaaaaar too easy for any group with a little experience. Skipping the majority of the content in this case makes it again more easy, leading to an impression, that the game lacks difficulty. Nemesis made a good point about that. Ofc, one can argue that this is not an issue at all. But it is in my opinion a one of the factors that feeds into the lack of satisfaction of PvE content in GW2. On the other hand especially in WvW chain stealthing, especially CnD chain stealthing, completely renders professions like Mesmers useless against Thieves, because it makes it impossible, literally impossible, to initiate any significant attack to a Thief for Mesmer, who lacks significant cleaves and ground targeted attacks. Also chain stealthing on structures within the just flipped tower, is another issue that (while not uncounterable) feeds in WvW issues (please read further down, on why I now already question those points in part).

@Topic:
This is from the Mesmer forum, where I also advocated the benefits of this change:

ASP.8093:

TyPin.9860:

The more I think about it, the more I like a reveal effect after stealth expires. It effects chain stealthing only and might be a good thing to when fighting stealth heavy classes/builds (looking at you PU Mesmers and D/P Thieves^^).

I feel like it’s gunning for builds that use stealth for damage/sustain but mostly hurting builds that use stealth for escape/utility.

Sure, sometimes thieves chain stealth and it’s really annoying, but oftentimes they’re already sucking up Revealed because that’s how they do big Backstab damage or stack tons of conditions on you. They can use intense mobility, Blind spam, and dodging to cover that Revealed time pretty easily.

PU builds don’t need to Reveal themselves as often (since they don’t have a powerful “sneak attack” from stealth), but a typical flow is to go into stealth for boons, pop out to load up an enemy with conditions or phantasms while Prot/Aegis/&c. help you survive a bit, then pop back in for more boons. Chaining stealth on a PU build is often wasteful.

Note also how both these builds are gonna have super-long-duration stealth without needing to chain, in the form of Shadow Refuge or (post-HoT) double-duration Mass Invis.

In contrast, there are a lot of times when you’re playing something like Sword/Torch shatter where you’ll want to chain stealth to get the heck out of a bad situation. Stealth is undoubtedly very powerful, but I don’t think it’s particularly unfair that if you kill someone without blowing a lot of high-cooldown skills, you can then use those skills to get away when their buddies show up.

In my view, Stealth applying Revealed doesn’t do much to stealth-spammers. Playing around Revealed is already part of their flow. If you want to discourage or tone down those builds, you need to limit how spammable stealth is, or their ability to turn stealth into sustain (like mesmer PU regen or thief Shadow Arts healing).

ASP makes really good points here (If someone made similar points here and I overread them, please excuse me, but there are so many worthless posts in this forum, I don’t read through all of them). Leading to the point, where I am not so sure any more, if this change would really fix things. Also, if SR wouldn’t be subject to this change, the content skipping in PvE dungeons would still be possible… making my point about Dungeons invalid.

Its good that you understand TyPin.

I actually whole-heartedly agree with any notions to nerf stealth spamming builds while promoting compensation in other areas. I’d like to see Trickery get access to condi removal on reveal as a GM trait, maybe even as a passive to Replenishment, to give the thief the condi protection it desperately needs (especially now in WvW with the removal of AF removing 25% of base HP) while opening up some build diversity.

swinsk.6410:

So, can we have 3s revealed in spvp now?

I’d actually rather have 4s revealed in WvW instead of 3s in PvP.