Guild Wars 2

Dagger storm is a pubstomping ability. It’s only good vs those who don’t know the easy counter. Whenever another thief tries to use it on me even though I’m pistol dagger build I swap to dagger dagger and jump right on them. If they don’t roll out of it and cancel it they will be dead or close to it before its over. Smart thieves roll out immediately when I start melee. Not sure how an ability with such a simple counter can be OP.

It’s not that I didn’t understand your point, it’s that your point is flawed. The amount of damage a skill does is irrelevant if the amount of time it takes to deal that damage is prohibitive. Would you prefer a skill that deals 1000 damage in 1 second, with an 8 second cooldown, or a skill that deals 1000 damage over 8 seconds with no cooldown? You can’t look a the total amount of damage a skill does, all the while ignoring other factors such as duration and channel.

Would I rather whirlwind in a 1v1 than dagger storm? Hell yes.

You do realize you could be spending that extra time performing other attacks, don’t you?

I now avoid dagger storm, its good for wvw, and spinning around new players. but if someone strips that stability and snares, im dead.

Dagger Storm is OP? Dagger Storm is OP? Dagger Storm is OP?

LEARN TO INTERRUPT IT!

1. i use this skill during pve because arenanet was dumb enough to cap bleeds at 25 stacks, and when i have another bleeder in my party, it goes easy to 25++. Beeing a cond build, i put lol dmg on mobs/bosses…. imagine grouping 25 thieves to kill a boss with cond build now(using scaling mecanics, it will take ages…)
2. in wvw is used when you group together, also it gives lol dmg, but i like it for the bleed and cripple honestly, you have a problem with us having an aoe skill ? (it only reflect bow shots, and since most(all) of you noobs in wvw uses one, then you deserve to cry.
3.in pvp/spvp it is a cruel joke. i cant even keep the full 8 sec of it before i get interupt…and die horribly.

Over powered…lol…really people can’t learn to counter something or dodge it and they go saying is OP. Really wanna see an over powered skill? Look at that Moa ability mesmers have. They should make the kitten cool down eternal for that kitten. Dagger storm hits around you at a decent cool down, I pick thiefs guild any day over this kitten, even if I used it plenty in pve and a decent bit in WvW.

It’s a rather mediocre skill TBH. My vids have a ton of dagger storm thieves getting owned 1v2+.

Plus, any melee can walk up to you and kill you with 2-3 crits. Also, there’s certain instants from range that go right through, like ele/necro scepter, mesmer greatsword auto, etc, etc.

Now, if you said Haste + Dagger Storm, then I’d actually be saying “hey that’s actually a pretty strong combo”.

The one thing I wish people would do with these threads is identify the skill/ability/trait which is being compared to the supposed overpowered skill/ability/trait.

Something can’t be “overpowered” as it implies it’s more powerful than it should be, but we the players can only work out what is “too powerful” by comparing stuff.

/me sits down to wait for anet to nerf skill

at this rate the perfect thief for guildwars is one that looks pretty and dies in 1 hit from all other classes

Does the Mesmer GS beam work through this? Cause as a beam it doesn’t get bounced back by reflection moves.

“Tornado is to melee as Dagger Storm is to ranged. Double the recast but also double duration. And you get nifty skills to use while in tornado mode such as an AoE blind.
Fiery Greatsword is also pretty kitten”

Hahahahaha. This guy has obviously never played an elementalist and actually tried to use these skills in pvp. Heck even in most places in pve they’re a death sentence. You will die, horribly.

Elemental is mediocre at best for an elite skill. I’d say its fine balance wise for pve, but for pvp it sucks.

I play my thief heavily in WvW and dagger storm is very very very very overpowered when compared too pretty much every other elite in the game. The duration of it needs to be shortened.

I really only play a thief main and that is it. but the thief forum has a responsibility to not just out right lie about the strength of our class. The only other class that can currently touch a good thief is a Mesmer. Dagger storm particularly in WvW is part of this and does need to be reduced down to a more balanced level.

daggerstorm is completly avoidable and stoppable, the fact that the thief has no mitigation against melee for its duration is one of its major weaknesses, using it in a group just means that group was too stupid to gib him.

Kyus.3812:

I play my thief heavily in WvW and dagger storm is very very very very overpowered when compared too pretty much every other elite in the game. The duration of it needs to be shortened.

I really only play a thief main and that is it. but the thief forum has a responsibility to not just out right lie about the strength of our class. The only other class that can currently touch a good thief is a Mesmer. Dagger storm particularly in WvW is part of this and does need to be reduced down to a more balanced level.

no skill should be nerfed for the sake of WvWvW

Kyus.3812:

I play my thief heavily in WvW and dagger storm is very very very very overpowered when compared too pretty much every other elite in the game. The duration of it needs to be shortened.

I really only play a thief main and that is it. but the thief forum has a responsibility to not just out right lie about the strength of our class. The only other class that can currently touch a good thief is a Mesmer. Dagger storm particularly in WvW is part of this and does need to be reduced down to a more balanced level.

When you see someone using dagger storm you know what you do?
You 1) stop shooting them and 2) run up and kill them.

If they did something crazy like Malice+Haste+Dagger Storm get another thief o rip stability off of them and then root them in place and GANK them…you don’t go “ kitten you’re doing mass damage and healing, lets run into them so they get even more heal and damage!”. That’s akin to running up in a invulnerable boss, using your elite and complaining that they don’t take any damage…

“That’s akin to running up in an invulnerable boss, using your elite and complaining that they don’t take any damage.”

Yeah, pretty much. DS is by no means overpowered. It is hard countered by boon removal and melee attacks.

BabelFish.7234:

Kyus.3812:

I play my thief heavily in WvW and dagger storm is very very very very overpowered when compared too pretty much every other elite in the game. The duration of it needs to be shortened.

I really only play a thief main and that is it. but the thief forum has a responsibility to not just out right lie about the strength of our class. The only other class that can currently touch a good thief is a Mesmer. Dagger storm particularly in WvW is part of this and does need to be reduced down to a more balanced level.

When you see someone using dagger storm you know what you do?
You 1) stop shooting them and 2) run up and kill them.

If they did something crazy like Malice+Haste+Dagger Storm get another thief o rip stability off of them and then root them in place and GANK them…you don’t go kitten you’re doing mass damage and healing, lets run into them so they get even more heal and damage!". That’s akin to running up in a invulnerable boss, using your elite and complaining that they don’t take any damage…

I stand by my comment above the skill should have a duration reduced from maybe 8 to 6 seconds. I personally have no problem with other thieves using dagger storm

Yes you can nullify dagger storm fairly easily in a small group scenario, but when it comes down to the core strengths of the skill you are enabling a thief a crippling, aoe with missile reflection and a method of moving unencumbered by any kind of control for 8 seconds. just the ability to get stability and immunity to projectiles for 8 seconds to our class that can use that time to recover other essential cooldowns leads us into a position where we are more powerful than most other classes.

In large group pvp the ability causes an unbelievable amount of damage, this is largely the missile reflection part of it. my guild see it as one of our bread and butter methods of taking down vastly superior numbers and it would negate some of our presents tactics should it be reduced slightly in effectiveness. but the fact that I find it useful now shouldn’t change the fact that a small reduction in its duration would go a long way in bringing it in-line with other elites.

there are also plenty of skills we can link with dagger storm to get away from the perils of being targeted by melee during it such as shadowstep, signet of shadow.

the simple fact is that you can mitigate it yes but you can mitigate every other classes elites in numerous ways and that doesn’t mean ours when used effectively should be so far beyond every other elite in the game.

In regards too not balancing on WvW, we have more than one elite, there are always other options to use in sPvP and PVE and I can’t see why a 2 second duration reduction to dagger storm would have a dramatic effect overall.

A 2 second duration decrease is 25% of the ability. That’s the difference between 8000 damage, and 6000. Pretty frigging big if you ask me.

It has its uses thats for sure, but grossly overpowered I think is being mistaken for working against those who do not know how to deal with it. It is a non targettable skill I don’t use very often.

@Rottaran,

using dagger storm I can probably hit upwards of 40-60,000 depending on timing, this would probably be on a keep defence. whilst doing this damage I have 8 seconds of stability I am fully mobile. Whilst I would agree that I am utilising a reflective ability well at a time where projectiles are unavoidable and the reason I can survive is because of my excellent guild mates buffing me and themselves it doesn’t change the facts of how extremely potent it is on a relatively short cooldown. We have a range of utility abilities some are intended to support solo play and smaller groups like thieves guild for example whilst Dagger Storm thrives in large groups and particularly in WvW. a duration reduction would leave the skill still in an excellent state to be used but would be a start in reducing its all out destructive capabilities.

On the subject on the topic: No.

Reason: because dagger storm is a perfectly fine balanced elite skill, it only punishes players who range the thief, you should fix yourselves and your WvWvW raids before you fix and punish a class because of another persons weaknesses.

ill say it again, NOTHING should be changed for the sake of wvwvw unless it leads to complete zone dominance that otherwise wouldnt happen

Dagerstorm IS powerful, but I’d say if anything it’s what other elites should be balanced around. Three quarters of the elite skills in this game are worthless, and thieves are probably the only profession in the game that actually has three useful ones.

Rather than call for daggerstorm to be nerfed I’d call for the other profession elites to actually be brought up to par.

OP you are an idiot. Dagger storm is an awful ability against anyone that doesn’t suck at PvP. It does very little damage unless you’re full glass cannon, in which case it becomes a huge liability. Since you can’t dodge or do anything while channeling it, you’re an easy instant kill for melee. Any melee dps that sees you dagger storming will literally kill you in under 2 seconds. A whole group in WvW with a combined IQ over 80 will down you instantly.

If it caused you to evade like the warrior steal then it would be extremely OP. But it does nothing against melee, aoe, and conditions, and basically lets everyone know you’re a free kill. Plus, even if you’re ranged all you have to do is dodge roll back (or walk away) and laugh.

Oh, and it’s a 90 second cooldown. That’s hardly spammable moron.

Shooopa.5632:

You’d have to be really, really terrible to not be able to handle someone using dagger storm.

It’s a really an awful skill when you get down to it because not only are the daggers thrown in completely random directions, but you CAN NOT DODGE.

You CAN NOT DODGE through its entire duration.

A thief who gives up their mobility for any significant period of time is a blood smear on the ground.

actually you can dodge, it just cancels the ability.

For what it counts, DS is truly crappy in PvE

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

For what it counts, DS is truly crappy in PvE

Haste+SoM+DS=tag pretty much every mob in sight, heal a good 1-3k hp and usually lower their health to around 1/2.

In terms of being a uber leet boss stomp ability its trashy, in terms of tagging mass mobs in Orr for exp, drops and crazy heal its pretty kitten good.

When I fight another thief and they pop Dagger storm I do three things.
1. Cloak and dagger
2. Backstab
3. Stomp them

All you need to do is dodge toward them why their doing it and you avoid being hit for a couple cycles.

Whilst a lot of people in this thread have suggested that you don’t balance based purely on WvW I’d like to suggest that you don’t balance based purely on 1v1 either. Dagger storm is an elite suited to 3-4+ encounters. as you increase the number of opponents the potency of this ability increases dramatically. this is best felt in WvW.

there are many replies with how to deal with dagger storming thieves, but much of this applies to a situation where you are clearly able to detect a thief and single him out whilst dagger storming.

I use this ability a lot and frankly when used against large numbers of opponents it is amazingly destructive. it even has its uses in 3+ encounters or simply as a means of escape (though we have many better methods if they’re not on CD, you have inniative). there are also a few ways of protecting yourself during a dagger storm from melee that vary based on build/utility so its not quite the case of backstab and stomp.

I still believe that a small reduction in duration would equate this to the potential power of other elites and would have relatively little impact in other areas of the game.

The thing is, the more opponents you have around sure you do better dmg but you also increase the possibility that someone around has a root ability up. Getting rooted and focused is death. A few coordinated people will down you in the root even if you insta stealth.

If you want to do it safely you can slot it with haste, shadowstep and blinding powder and only do it when they are all up but now you are talking about using 3 skills to make the most out of an elite.

Stiv.1820:

The thing is, the more opponents you have around sure you do better dmg but you also increase the possibility that someone around has a root ability up. Getting rooted and focused is death. A few coordinated people will down you in the root even if you insta stealth.

If you want to do it safely you can slot it with haste, shadowstep and blinding powder and only do it when they are all up but now you are talking about using 3 skills to make the most out of an elite.

Does entangle work against dagger storm, I thought that stability would prevent this? if not then the root would be instantly destroyed anyway by my combined groups aoe or probably from a dagger storm hit.

in group vs group wvw dagger storm is very very potent in its present state. The problem with analysing how to beat dagger storm is it factors in a lot of maybes and nearly always doesn’t account for dagger storm being used by a group. coordinating their attack around it. Remember I use this skill I play a thief and it just feels at present like a magic “I win” button. I’m not complaining I like that its potent but I don’t feel like I should complain about other classes when I feel that certain elements of the one I play are out of balance too.

Kyus.3812:

Stiv.1820:

The thing is, the more opponents you have around sure you do better dmg but you also increase the possibility that someone around has a root ability up. Getting rooted and focused is death. A few coordinated people will down you in the root even if you insta stealth.

If you want to do it safely you can slot it with haste, shadowstep and blinding powder and only do it when they are all up but now you are talking about using 3 skills to make the most out of an elite.

Does entangle work against dagger storm, I thought that stability would prevent this? if not then the root would be instantly destroyed anyway by my combined groups aoe or probably from a dagger storm hit.

in group vs group wvw dagger storm is very very potent in its present state. The problem with analysing how to beat dagger storm is it factors in a lot of maybes and nearly always doesn’t account for dagger storm being used by a group. coordinating their attack around it. Remember I use this skill I play a thief and it just feels at present like a magic “I win” button. I’m not complaining I like that its potent but I don’t feel like I should complain about other classes when I feel that certain elements of the one I play are out of balance too.

Any ability that roots you works as far as I know. I’ve been rooted and focused many times trying to DS a zerg. My favorite thing to do was to steal from a warrior and DS^Whirl back to back in a zerg but as our server has climbed the rankings this has become impossible. It all depends on who you are fighting.

Yes stacking organised thieves coordinated in voice chat is insanely powerful. No doubt about that.

You can’t get rooted during dagger storm. Once dagger storm is over though….RIP

Stiv.1820:

Kyus.3812:

Stiv.1820:

The thing is, the more opponents you have around sure you do better dmg but you also increase the possibility that someone around has a root ability up. Getting rooted and focused is death. A few coordinated people will down you in the root even if you insta stealth.

If you want to do it safely you can slot it with haste, shadowstep and blinding powder and only do it when they are all up but now you are talking about using 3 skills to make the most out of an elite.

Does entangle work against dagger storm, I thought that stability would prevent this? if not then the root would be instantly destroyed anyway by my combined groups aoe or probably from a dagger storm hit.

in group vs group wvw dagger storm is very very potent in its present state. The problem with analysing how to beat dagger storm is it factors in a lot of maybes and nearly always doesn’t account for dagger storm being used by a group. coordinating their attack around it. Remember I use this skill I play a thief and it just feels at present like a magic “I win” button. I’m not complaining I like that its potent but I don’t feel like I should complain about other classes when I feel that certain elements of the one I play are out of balance too.

Any ability that roots you works as far as I know. I’ve been rooted and focused many times trying to DS a zerg. My favorite thing to do was to steal from a warrior and DS^Whirl back to back in a zerg but as our server has climbed the rankings this has become impossible. It all depends on who you are fighting.

Yes stacking organised thieves coordinated in voice chat is insanely powerful. No doubt about that.

I believe the root only works if you recieved it before you activate dagger storm if not then you are unrootable. I have certainly avoided numerous roots using dagger storm. one of the other factors that leads me to believe it is on the overly potent side of the elite skills is that for 8 seconds you gain a consistant source of damage stability and a means of protecting yourself from at least ranged opponents. this is enough time to restore cool downs on stealths, heals etc. so it also acts as a panic button. sure it can be countered as it should be but a shorter duration in my opinion would reduce the high upward potential of damage from it whilst leaving its core function the same.

Still ok to disagree and nice to chat it out with someone who doesn’t purely just want to say its fine because its on their class.

The root immunity thing needs further investigation or input form people in the know. During the frey I’m not sure exactly what skill I’m getting hit with but something stops me dead (I continue spinning) after I’ve already begun spinning/moving. Maybe it’s a particular skill or two? Not sure.

Also, you can heart seeker through guardian walls. Just fyi

Eicherjw.3926:

You can’t get rooted during dagger storm. Once dagger storm is over though….RIP

You CAN be rooted,no matter the stability buff.

^Pics or didn’t happen

Eicherjw.3926:

^Pics or didn’t happen

It happens. I’m not going to discount one or two skills acting differnlty than others of the same type but you can be rooted in place while spinning during DS and it’s a sure death.

Must be dependant on the type of root. I’ve hard guardians cast that chain effect looking root on me and I just keep spinning through it.

Dagger storm isn’t overpowered. Dagger storm + signet of malice is overpowered.

Immobilise works on Dagger Storm. I know because I’ve both had it used on me AND I’ve used it on others.

Eicherjw.3926:

Must be dependant on the type of root. I’ve hard guardians cast that chain effect looking root on me and I just keep spinning through it.

Yes this is exactly the case. Most CCs are blocked, but a couple types are not. Ironically, one of the best ways to stop someone with stability was with Basilisk Venom, which has now been nerfed to not work against it. So in fact Dagger Storm got relatively stronger because of a thief nerf.

ele here. I would kill for daggerstorm. I really would.

a little under 4 times the damage of my version of it, with a little under 4 times the range, half my cooldown, oh and immunity to projectiles while you’re using it. Must be nice. Oh and can you use utilities while it’s ongoing provided they are instant cast? Because I sure as hell cant.

It’s not so bad if you’re a necromancer lol, just corrupt boon them out of it. Stability turns into fear, and fear brings them out of the animation.

lol everytime i see a thief come out in dagger storm, i steal shadowstep to them and backstab, then heartseeker. that = dead thief before they can stealth. Since 90% are glass cannons this will always kill them.

I prefer bask venom and even thiefs guild over it

That bad thief using it is completely vulnerable to any melee for 8 seconds … more than enough time to get them killed. If you are ranged, you move away and that is rather easy to do. In fact, it’s damage drops significantly if you aren’t right beside your target so this skill should be a joke to any ranged class.

Bottom line: If daggerstorm kills you, it’s not because it’s OP. It’s because you are glass cannon melee or a bad ranged player that doesn’t use range to their advantage.

Wait 90% of people use dagger storm? Is there a special version of guild wars where thieves guild is considered useless and dagger storm actually makes it rain daggers?

Or are you complaining about a skill that slows you down, throws a bunch of weak inaccurate daggers everywhere, and leaves you open to any idiot with a large stick to mash you into paste.

Division.9618:

Wait 90% of people use dagger storm? Is there a special version of guild wars where thieves guild is considered useless and dagger storm actually makes it rain daggers?

Or are you complaining about a skill that slows you down, throws a bunch of weak inaccurate daggers everywhere, and leaves you open to any idiot with a large stick to mash you into paste.

There are some legitimate points in this thread about why dagger storm isn’t overpowered. Make no mistake, however, dagger storm is incredibly powerful. The daggers are not weak, and far from being inaccurate in the right setting they actually hit multiple targets per dagger.

There is always going to be some portion of thieves that can’t see past 1v1 and think that nothing but Thieves’ Guild matters, but Dagger Storm is very good in many situations and has half the recast time.

Stiv.1820:

The root immunity thing needs further investigation or input form people in the know. During the frey I’m not sure exactly what skill I’m getting hit with but something stops me dead (I continue spinning) after I’ve already begun spinning/moving. Maybe it’s a particular skill or two? Not sure.

I’ve ran into this as well from mobs in Orr.
It’s supposed to stop root but sometimes it doesn’t. Probably another GW2 bug.