Guild Wars 2

bliss.4305:

As long as Vault fails to be combo’d with Steal or teleports, its going to be useless no matter what’s done to it. So I think that’s the priorty here, not some minor adjustment.

That’s what Bound is for, buddy

Vault is very useful, you just gotta know how to use it. Now that it has evade frames to, I’m gonna have a great time smashing everything with it.

I was already loving that skill, now it’s even better.

I quite like those changes. Seems like in PvE, Weakening Charge is your big hitter if you can position it correctly and not get hut using it, and Vault is your safer option which works regardless of positioning.

No, bliss.4305, just no. if you could chain it with Steal or other shadowstepping abilities, it would mean that it is not a jump, but rather a “move quickly into x direction”, just like heartseeker. Thieves lack a real jump and therefore it should stay a real jump. Staff has Weakening Charge as high damage skill already (albeit hard to land all strikes), thus i´d like to see Vault lose some Damage in exchange for a range increase to 800. The way it is now its at least finally useful in combat as it is has an evade part now. See kittens flying towards you, Vault out of there. And you cant be interrupted at the start. Or Vault into fights… good possibilities there.

BrunoBRS.5178:

you’re just dying to have someone ask you what “super unicorn” is, aren’t you?

Honestly I shouldn’t have to, since it’s been our premier bunker build for nearly 3 years.

Fantastic changes, Karl! Vault is now looking absolutely perfect and Weakening Strikes is in the exact right spot to benefit all kinds of builds and is just robust in general. The QOL finishers are great, too.

Any word on potential changes to Dust Strike? It’s not really a big deal at this point considering how robust the rest of the specialisation has become, it’s just that I would find a PBAoE far more lucrative to use over the other available skills than in its current implementation.

Thanks for all the hard work!

Ok, so I love the changes to weakening strike, although the skill still has waaaaay too long of a cast and after cast stop period for me to find awesome use for it in the heat of group combat.

I love the changes to vault as well! the only thing I would recommend would be to make the evade 1 second long, or an even better case would be for it to have a 0.5 second evade frame at the beginning of the jump and a 0.5 second evade frame as you land, this way when you land in the heart of combat with 5 enemies around they cannot insta nuke you to dust as you make an entry. I am still taking into account the counterplay to the move as enemies will have a second and a half to see you airborne to either dodge or knock you from the sky. I think that little extra 0.5 on impact would be a huge help though since it costs so much initiative and if missed/ blocked/ dodged/ interrupted can lead to quite a mess.

Overall fantastic changes! I cannot wait to see all the new staff animations you guys have been working on!))

I would very much enjoy an option for Condi thiefs in daredevil. Yea you have the GM now but what am I supposed to take on 1st and 2nd?

Speaking form a PVE viewpoint now.

My ideas:
1st tier:
-Give Evasive empowerment A buf to condi dmg too.
-Apply a condition with weakening strike ( preferable burning)
-Brawlers tenacity is alright.

2nd tier: (Imho the most problematic trai for condi thiefs)
In pvp its a clear choice for the 2nd trait. However I also think that Escapist absolution is too weak. A good oponent in Pvp will deny you the evades ( by running away) while you slowly die by condis)
In pve its just plain useless.
- I think Staff master is good as it is but since Staff ist a condi weapon it’s not a viable choice for condi thiefs either
-Leaves you with Impacting disruption wich is also clearly neither a Pve nor a condi trait.

The GM are really nice since the change.

so TL DR: the 2nd tier daredevil traits give no viable choice for Condition builds

my Idea for improvements:

Its quite hard to change the trais without removing the identity of the traits. I have an idea thogh:

Combine escapist absolution with Driven fortitude. I think the traits fit great together and combined they make an alright minor( still nothing too special).
This leaves you with a free 2nd tier:

My ideas of easy to make/effecitve traits to replace it:
1st.) X% of Power is converted to Condi Dmg trait.
2nd.)On crit condition. ( F.e. burning/poison )
3rd.) If you have not been hit for x amount of time you get a big conid dmg buff ( would fit great to the evade theme)
4th.) If you evade an attack you get a stackable condi buff. ( also fits great to the theme)

I would very much enjoy an option for Condi thiefs in daredevil. Yea you have the GM now but what am I supposed to take on 1st and 2nd?

In slot one, Weakening Strikes, and in slot 2 Staff Master if you use a staff and are good on taking conditions yourself, Escapist’s Absolution otherwise. The DD is a dodge-based spec, and you’ll have to dodge anyways to proc the GM effect, so abilities that allow you to live longer make it easier to kill things with conditions. It’s certainly a build that leans more towards tanky than DPSy.

Love the changes so far but DrD still has no reliable condi cleanse or am I missing something?

Karl, please, if HoT is as condi heavy as it seems give us a good way of cleansing condis.

Eleandra.4859:

Love the changes so far but DrD still has no reliable condi cleanse or am I missing something?

Karl, please, if HoT is as condi heavy as it seems give us a good way of cleansing condis.

^ I have to admit condis are becoming an insane issue.. they are only getting worse as time goes on too…its like:

Walk near enemies – gain passive conditions from them
Make mistake and walk over aoe – gain 12 conitions
get hit by a foes move – gain 15 stacks of 1 condition
hit a foe – gain passive conditions for god knows why.

Its getting pretty old and making PvP unbearable. Im really tired of getting conditioned to death probably half the time by a player using 1 or 2 skills and me taking 3k ticks of some BS condi (s).
I think that evade to remove 1 single condition should definitely be a minor trait in daredevil at this point with how stupid (and easy) condi application is now..

Eleandra.4859:

Love the changes so far but DrD still has no reliable condi cleanse or am I missing something?

Karl, please, if HoT is as condi heavy as it seems give us a good way of cleansing condis.

I agree. Escapists absolution was nice, but condi players would just deny me the evade. I can’t wait 1-2 seconds for them to do something evade worthy, that 2 sec and I’m almost dead from burning or the dot portion of confuse… This should be ‘on dodge’. If I need to spend a dodge to cleanse, so be it. That’s not an op solution, condis are ridiculous and getting worse.

Even loading up trickster, absolution, sword 2, and shadowstep its just a matter of time before death.

Karl McLain.5604:

• Weakening Strikes: This trait now grants 10% damage reduction when being struck by a weakened foe, in addition to weakening foes on critical hit.

The other things are nice but this is the meat of the update. If this goes through it is going to be very hard to choose between this and Brawler’s Tenacity. This is mega big. Really wish we had another beta weekend to test this out. We can sneak another one in this coming weekend right? We can play it off as needing to confirm server stability?

On a side note: Any updates on “Impact Strike”? Tweak this a little and I think we might just have a competitive class in time for HoT. I am still going to preach a damage increase when the enemy is below 20% health. I think it will fit the skill’s theme and make it more valuable in PvE and raids.

Woaden.9425:

Eleandra.4859:

Love the changes so far but DrD still has no reliable condi cleanse or am I missing something?

Karl, please, if HoT is as condi heavy as it seems give us a good way of cleansing condis.

I agree. Escapists absolution was nice, but condi players would just deny me the evade. I can’t wait 1-2 seconds for them to do something evade worthy, that 2 sec and I’m almost dead from burning or the dot portion of confuse… This should be ‘on dodge’. If I need to spend a dodge to cleanse, so be it. That’s not an op solution, condis are ridiculous and getting worse.

Even loading up trickster, absolution, sword 2, and shadowstep its just a matter of time before death.

It would be nice if “Endurance Thief” was changed to “Reverse Pick Pocket” and transfers 3 conditions from you to your enemy’s back pocket on steel in addition to stealing endurance.

Don’t you think it would be nice if applying blind on hit didn’t break stealth?

Think about it!

Driften.8716:

It would be nice if “Endurance Thief” was changed to “Reverse Pick Pocket” and transfers 3 conditions from you to your enemy’s back pocket on steel in addition to stealing endurance.

It probably only needs to transfer two conditions to be an effective addition, but I REALLY like the concept.

Transferring conditions is way more fun than just cleansing them .

Nike.2631:

Driften.8716:

It would be nice if “Endurance Thief” was changed to “Reverse Pick Pocket” and transfers 3 conditions from you to your enemy’s back pocket on steel in addition to stealing endurance.

It probably only needs to transfer two conditions to be an effective addition, but I REALLY like the concept.

Transferring conditions is way more fun than just cleansing them .

Very good idea, but it would need to go into Acro. It needs the love, and putting it in DD would only make it outshine it more. I just think EA needs to be minor with DF, then add another condi removal option that wouldn’t outshine Staff Master and Impacting Disruption, but still be useful. Something like “Using a stolen skill removes a condition.” Would give synergy with Deadly Arts as well.

What havoc master COULD do is be changed to give 7 percent more damage to both power and conditions when in range. This would favor close in condition builds but so be it.

Another alternative is just make weakening strikes a chance to proc without need of a crit . As example 33 percent chance to inflict weakness (and along with it that 10 percent damage mitigation). This would still be kept in check by that cooldown.

Karl McLain.5604:

Here’s a couple other updates that had been in the works and are now in testing.

• Vault: Reduced aftercast by 80ms. Added a 500ms evade at the start of the ability.
• Distracting Daggers: Projectiles from this ability are now counted as 100% projectile finishers.
• Impairing Daggers: Projectiles from this ability are now counted as 100% projectile finishers.
• Weakening Strikes: This trait now grants 10% damage reduction when being struck by a weakened foe, in addition to weakening foes on critical hit.

Thanks for keeping us updated on things, Karl. I like these changes and I’m looking forward to try them out soom . I still think the preparation part of Distracting Daggers should be removed, but at least with them being 100% finishers they will gain some guaranteed extra utility.

Really looking forward to fully getting to grips with my mains new spec.

babazhook.6805:

Another alternative is just make weakening strikes a chance to proc without need of a crit . As example 33 percent chance to inflict weakness (and along with it that 10 percent damage mitigation). This would still be kept in check by that cooldown.

I don’t think the crit part is a problem. The 10 sec CD will not allow you to use it more than once per 10 seconds anyway. If you cannot pull off a crit once every 10 seconds as a thief there is a bigger problem. The only thing you gain with a high crit chance is a faster 1st proc and again the thief hits so fast it doesn’t matter.

I think the bigger question is what other sources you can get to proc weakness in between to keep the duration steady. “Lotus Poison” in junction with this will stack durations and give you your more often proc with poisons. Sigil of Debility, sword/staff skills and friendly conditions will open a lot of doors for the 10% dmg mitigation buff.

Nike.2631:

BrunoBRS.5178:

you’re just dying to have someone ask you what “super unicorn” is, aren’t you?

Honestly I shouldn’t have to, since it’s been our premier bunker build for nearly 3 years.

except calling it by a pet name doesn’t give me anything about what the build itself is. i could very well know the build, but not recognize it because you’re calling it by a name that doesn’t describe the build.

far as i know, the best bunker thief build i’ve seen being used was S/P, but it was looooooooooong ago and i don’t know the traits the guy i saw using it was using, since his playstyle relied mostly on keeping the capture point blinded while he hurted anyone that tried getting close to it.

babazhook.6805:

What havoc master COULD do is be changed to give 7 percent more damage to both power and conditions when in range. This would favor close in condition builds but so be it.

the thing with that is that it’s much harder to implement situational condition damage like that. for power damage is easy, it’s just a range check when the damage is applied. for condi damage, it has to keep track of everyone that has a damaging condi you applied, and their range, for every tick, and then give it a bonus condi damage (or not) before calculating the tick’s damage.

alchemyst.2165:

Very good idea, but it would need to go into Acro. It needs the love, and putting it in DD would only make it outshine it more. I just think EA needs to be minor with DF, then add another condi removal option that wouldn’t outshine Staff Master and Impacting Disruption, but still be useful. Something like “Using a stolen skill removes a condition.” Would give synergy with Deadly Arts as well.

i agree that acro should be the trait line about defensive choices tied to mobility and steal.

IMO, EA could be a minor and DF could be a major, if it got buffed (maybe reduce the ICD to 1/2 or 1/4?). then, acro could see some buffs that defined it as the thief’s defensive line, with some improvements to condi removal and other benefits to defensive playstyle.

here are some changes i’d like to see on acrobatics:

• make pain response a more reliable skill. once every 20 seconds on hit is pretty meh, though the trigger effect isn’t half bad (the regen is redundant though).

• redo guarded initiation. this is the most useless skill in any thief line by a long margin. no thief will find themselves in a situation where they’re at 90% health, but have conditions on them. even then, i doubt this hypothetical thief would be “jeez, i wish i didn’t have weakness and slow on me right now”. they’d probably wait it out before engaging, instead of bringing a trait. this would be a great spot to give thieves a whole new trait

• i know you want swords to have a trait, but swindler’s equilibrium would actually be a really good pick if it didn’t go “once per second, and only with swords!”. either take a look at the ICD, or make it recharge more than a second. someone taking both acro and trickery would already be giving up a lot, if your concern is that it would be too strong when paired with sleight of hand.

• haven’t gotten to test it, but make sure hard to catch actually refills 100% endurance, not 100 endurance. it makes a difference for daredevil. alternatively, give signet of agility a stunbreak and make the trait proc its active effect. would you look at that, it would give thief some condi clear, even if extremely situational.

• assassin’s reward used to be one of my favorite traits before it became a GM trait (which means it was looooooooooong before the june patch). it’s just too weak to justify being picked though. i’d like to see it get a slight buff to the base heal (like 20-30 health per ini), and give it a high healing power scaling, because some thieves think running cleric’s, shaman’s or zealot’s is really fun.

• upper hand has the same problem as swindler’s equilibrium. either reduce the ICD, or make the trigger effect stronger.

very nice changes. evade on vault is a big help and projectile finishers are a nice buff too, impairing daggers look a lot better now. thats some serious dmg on top of slow/immob if you can fire it off in a field (which isnt that hard, theres always fields around). Great job, DD is definitely my favourite elite spec now.

Now i dream of a new rune that removes conditions on physical skills, that would round it all up perfectly.

Driften.8716:

babazhook.6805:

Another alternative is just make weakening strikes a chance to proc without need of a crit . As example 33 percent chance to inflict weakness (and along with it that 10 percent damage mitigation). This would still be kept in check by that cooldown.

I don’t think the crit part is a problem. The 10 sec CD will not allow you to use it more than once per 10 seconds anyway. If you cannot pull off a crit once every 10 seconds as a thief there is a bigger problem. The only thing you gain with a high crit chance is a faster 1st proc and again the thief hits so fast it doesn’t matter.

I think the bigger question is what other sources you can get to proc weakness in between to keep the duration steady. “Lotus Poison” in junction with this will stack durations and give you your more often proc with poisons. Sigil of Debility, sword/staff skills and friendly conditions will open a lot of doors for the 10% dmg mitigation buff.

True that. I am just thinking the Condition build specs need a little more somewhere out of this specline. I am not sure where it can be fit in. I felt a source of poison would work great here (instead of the 10 percent mitigation) but find that mitigation acceptable.

The only spec line with poison built in would be DA. Poison is key to so very many thief builds which have to be much more focused on inhibiting heals than do other professions.

Great Job Karl. If you would please just make ONE additional change it would be to remove the damage component from impaling lotus grand master trait or prevent that damage from breaking stealth.
I’ve lost count how many times I’ve lost stealth because I dodged too close to an enemy.

Also the 7% havoc master should affect condition damage to keep things fair!

babazhook.6805:

Driften.8716:

babazhook.6805:

Another alternative is just make weakening strikes a chance to proc without need of a crit . As example 33 percent chance to inflict weakness (and along with it that 10 percent damage mitigation). This would still be kept in check by that cooldown.

I don’t think the crit part is a problem. The 10 sec CD will not allow you to use it more than once per 10 seconds anyway. If you cannot pull off a crit once every 10 seconds as a thief there is a bigger problem. The only thing you gain with a high crit chance is a faster 1st proc and again the thief hits so fast it doesn’t matter.

I think the bigger question is what other sources you can get to proc weakness in between to keep the duration steady. “Lotus Poison” in junction with this will stack durations and give you your more often proc with poisons. Sigil of Debility, sword/staff skills and friendly conditions will open a lot of doors for the 10% dmg mitigation buff.

True that. I am just thinking the Condition build specs need a little more somewhere out of this specline. I am not sure where it can be fit in. I felt a source of poison would work great here (instead of the 10 percent mitigation) but find that mitigation acceptable.

The only spec line with poison built in would be DA. Poison is key to so very many thief builds which have to be much more focused on inhibiting heals than do other professions.

I think there are some working condition builds. I think the one thing to keep in mind is that condition builds on thief work a little different than condition builds say from a necro. A necro is more about “cursing” your enemy with the conditions which negates most if not all direct damage from the necro. The conditions are the bulk of the damage and piling these will over time kill the enemy. The necro does very little direct/physical contact.

Thieves on the other hand are more of a 50/50. They do a good chunk of direct damage and use the conditions to weaken the enemy. If the fight goes south the conditions leave the enemy pacified while the thief gets away and if the enemy flees the effects will for a lack of terms “bleed” the enemy out. Poisons in general help with mitigating health regen (33% heal decrease) and weakness keeps them from hitting us hard. A thief doesn’t use the conditions as a “final solution” but as a way to distract/weaken the enemy in order to get in some cheep shots. We are rogues none the less.

I think between DD-DA and SA there are some interesting condition builds able to come to fruition.:

DD allows us to use weakness to mitigate damage and use Lotus Training to inflict conditions upon dodging, impairing daggers gives additional poison and immobilization.

DA gives us a buff to poison damage and duration by 33% each, chance to cause poison on dagger hit, Lotus Poison to proc more weakness (more damage mitigation), use conditions in traps, buff conditions with might and hit the enemy with vuln through traps and trap when you use a heal skill, 10% more dmg if an enemy has a condition.

SA gives more options with venoms to use “Spider Venom” for 6 more stacks of poison, and Skale Venom to inflict torment, might boons upon the cast of venoms and venom share.

I am not trying to disagree with you on the condition damage but more or less trying to point where we already have some strong condition buffs. I personally play a crit thief but am interested in building some condition armor to try this spec out. I think the most beneficial thing is with a condition thief is not to go full condition but expect to get in there and get your hands dirty with a few critical kidney shots.

BrunoBRS.5178:

Nike.2631:

BrunoBRS.5178:

you’re just dying to have someone ask you what “super unicorn” is, aren’t you?

Honestly I shouldn’t have to, since it’s been our premier bunker build for nearly 3 years.

except calling it by a pet name doesn’t give me anything about what the build itself is. i could very well know the build, but not recognize it because you’re calling it by a name that doesn’t describe the build.

far as i know, the best bunker thief build i’ve seen being used was S/P, but it was looooooooooong ago and i don’t know the traits the guy i saw using it was using, since his playstyle relied mostly on keeping the capture point blinded while he hurted anyone that tried getting close to it.

babazhook.6805:

What havoc master COULD do is be changed to give 7 percent more damage to both power and conditions when in range. This would favor close in condition builds but so be it.

the thing with that is that it’s much harder to implement situational condition damage like that. for power damage is easy, it’s just a range check when the damage is applied. for condi damage, it has to keep track of everyone that has a damaging condi you applied, and their range, for every tick, and then give it a bonus condi damage (or not) before calculating the tick’s damage.

I do not see why it harder. It just an added range check,. We get added condition damage on impaling lotus which has to check and apply to all persons you loaded conditions on. A range check would merely mean the same happens on people within the defined distance.

Driften.8716:

snip

the problem with hybrid condi thief is that their attacks are either condi attacks, or damage attacks. you either burn all your ini on death blossoms, or you do it on CnD/heartseeker. and P/D, well, it would need a lot before it could be hybrid.

so instead of being like necro, where they can have a pure condi build that does a ton of condis with most attacks, or a pure power build, or like a ranger, that can run power and condi so they can still hit hard while dishing out condis, thief is in this weird set up where the traits say “play hybrid!” but the weapons say “pick one!”

Driften.8716:

babazhook.6805:

Driften.8716:

babazhook.6805:

Another alternative is just make weakening strikes a chance to proc without need of a crit . As example 33 percent chance to inflict weakness (and along with it that 10 percent damage mitigation). This would still be kept in check by that cooldown.

I don’t think the crit part is a problem. The 10 sec CD will not allow you to use it more than once per 10 seconds anyway. If you cannot pull off a crit once every 10 seconds as a thief there is a bigger problem. The only thing you gain with a high crit chance is a faster 1st proc and again the thief hits so fast it doesn’t matter.

I think the bigger question is what other sources you can get to proc weakness in between to keep the duration steady. “Lotus Poison” in junction with this will stack durations and give you your more often proc with poisons. Sigil of Debility, sword/staff skills and friendly conditions will open a lot of doors for the 10% dmg mitigation buff.

True that. I am just thinking the Condition build specs need a little more somewhere out of this specline. I am not sure where it can be fit in. I felt a source of poison would work great here (instead of the 10 percent mitigation) but find that mitigation acceptable.

The only spec line with poison built in would be DA. Poison is key to so very many thief builds which have to be much more focused on inhibiting heals than do other professions.

I think there are some working condition builds. I think the one thing to keep in mind is that condition builds on thief work a little different than condition builds say from a necro. A necro is more about “cursing” your enemy with the conditions which negates most if not all direct damage from the necro. The conditions are the bulk of the damage and piling these will over time kill the enemy. The necro does very little direct/physical contact.

Thieves on the other hand are more of a 50/50. They do a good chunk of direct damage and use the conditions to weaken the enemy. If the fight goes south the conditions leave the enemy pacified while the thief gets away and if the enemy flees the effects will for a lack of terms “bleed” the enemy out. Poisons in general help with mitigating health regen (33% heal decrease) and weakness keeps them from hitting us hard. A thief doesn’t use the conditions as a “final solution” but as a way to distract/weaken the enemy in order to get in some cheep shots. We are rogues none the less.

I think between DD-DA and SA there are some interesting condition builds able to come to fruition.:

DD allows us to use weakness to mitigate damage and use Lotus Training to inflict conditions upon dodging, impairing daggers gives additional poison and immobilization.

DA gives us a buff to poison damage and duration by 33% each, chance to cause poison on dagger hit, Lotus Poison to proc more weakness (more damage mitigation), use conditions in traps, buff conditions with might and hit the enemy with vuln through traps and trap when you use a heal skill, 10% more dmg if an enemy has a condition.

SA gives more options with venoms to use “Spider Venom” for 6 more stacks of poison, and Skale Venom to inflict torment, might boons upon the cast of venoms and venom share.

I am not trying to disagree with you on the condition damage but more or less trying to point where we already have some strong condition buffs. I personally play a crit thief but am interested in building some condition armor to try this spec out. I think the most beneficial thing is with a condition thief is not to go full condition but expect to get in there and get your hands dirty with a few critical kidney shots.

Well I will use trickery just as an example as many agree this one of our best traitline

It has uncathable then pressure strike and then BA at each tier. A build focused on conditions can do very well taking this line and feel it can be used to directly enhance his condition pressure rather then design around other condition sources so as to utilize the line.

There are also a whole pile of traits such as those that give ferocity or those that add to a power attack (lead attacks executioner and so on,) that add to power rather than conditions. More of these in fact than condition builds get. This does not translate to we should ask those wanting more power to source from another line or utility.

Now make no mistake , impaling lotus a great trait but that havoc mastery allows a power thief a better ability to trait unhindered combat. In a condition build if one wants more damage from conditions it pretty well only impaling lotus.

If a condition build did get that 7 percent more per ticket via havoc then there more an opportunity to take unhindered.

babazhook.6805:

Driften.8716:

babazhook.6805:

Driften.8716:

babazhook.6805:

Another alternative is just make weakening strikes a chance to proc without need of a crit . As example 33 percent chance to inflict weakness (and along with it that 10 percent damage mitigation). This would still be kept in check by that cooldown.

I don’t think the crit part is a problem. The 10 sec CD will not allow you to use it more than once per 10 seconds anyway. If you cannot pull off a crit once every 10 seconds as a thief there is a bigger problem. The only thing you gain with a high crit chance is a faster 1st proc and again the thief hits so fast it doesn’t matter.

I think the bigger question is what other sources you can get to proc weakness in between to keep the duration steady. “Lotus Poison” in junction with this will stack durations and give you your more often proc with poisons. Sigil of Debility, sword/staff skills and friendly conditions will open a lot of doors for the 10% dmg mitigation buff.

True that. I am just thinking the Condition build specs need a little more somewhere out of this specline. I am not sure where it can be fit in. I felt a source of poison would work great here (instead of the 10 percent mitigation) but find that mitigation acceptable.

The only spec line with poison built in would be DA. Poison is key to so very many thief builds which have to be much more focused on inhibiting heals than do other professions.

I think there are some working condition builds. I think the one thing to keep in mind is that condition builds on thief work a little different than condition builds say from a necro. A necro is more about “cursing” your enemy with the conditions which negates most if not all direct damage from the necro. The conditions are the bulk of the damage and piling these will over time kill the enemy. The necro does very little direct/physical contact.

Thieves on the other hand are more of a 50/50. They do a good chunk of direct damage and use the conditions to weaken the enemy. If the fight goes south the conditions leave the enemy pacified while the thief gets away and if the enemy flees the effects will for a lack of terms “bleed” the enemy out. Poisons in general help with mitigating health regen (33% heal decrease) and weakness keeps them from hitting us hard. A thief doesn’t use the conditions as a “final solution” but as a way to distract/weaken the enemy in order to get in some cheep shots. We are rogues none the less.

I think between DD-DA and SA there are some interesting condition builds able to come to fruition.:

DD allows us to use weakness to mitigate damage and use Lotus Training to inflict conditions upon dodging, impairing daggers gives additional poison and immobilization.

DA gives us a buff to poison damage and duration by 33% each, chance to cause poison on dagger hit, Lotus Poison to proc more weakness (more damage mitigation), use conditions in traps, buff conditions with might and hit the enemy with vuln through traps and trap when you use a heal skill, 10% more dmg if an enemy has a condition.

SA gives more options with venoms to use “Spider Venom” for 6 more stacks of poison, and Skale Venom to inflict torment, might boons upon the cast of venoms and venom share.

I am not trying to disagree with you on the condition damage but more or less trying to point where we already have some strong condition buffs. I personally play a crit thief but am interested in building some condition armor to try this spec out. I think the most beneficial thing is with a condition thief is not to go full condition but expect to get in there and get your hands dirty with a few critical kidney shots.

Well I will use trickery just as an example as many agree this one of our best traitline

It has uncathable then pressure strike and then BA at each tier. A build focused on conditions can do very well taking this line and feel it can be used to directly enhance his condition pressure rather then design around other condition sources so as to utilize the line.

There are also a whole pile of traits such as those that give ferocity or those that add to a power attack (lead attacks executioner and so on,) that add to power rather than conditions. More of these in fact than condition builds get. This does not translate to we should ask those wanting more power to source from another line or utility.

Now make no mistake , impaling lotus a great trait but that havoc mastery allows a power thief a better ability to trait unhindered combat. In a condition build if one wants more damage from conditions it pretty well only impaling lotus.

If a condition build did get that 7 percent more per ticket via havoc then there more an opportunity to take unhindered.

I think the jury is still out on “havoc” as it is not stated as a 7% increase to direct damage or all damage. As what info we have right now it is a 50/50 chance. We don’t know if this is going to be a debuff or “mark” placed on the enemies in range. It might just be a ranged circle around the thief that anyone crosses they take more damage from the thief. If so condition damage would be ticking within this AOE. I do not see why the condition damage wouldn’t increase as well as direct. I think we are going to have to wait till HoT releases or Karl decides to shed some light this skill’s mechanic. Everything is in testing none the less.

As for the Trickery trait line, I do not disagree it is a good trait line. However while the line offers some nice things such as boon steal and such it does not offer really anything in terms of direct condition buff. It was meant to be the deception buff line and able to hand out utility. The way things are currently designed DA offers the most bonus to condition and I really don’t know why SA even has venoms as they doesn’t have anything to do with stealth (At ALL). I would perfer to see venoms replaced into DA and Reveal Training, mug and improvisation be put into SA. shrugs I guess they mixed them around to force people to synergize with other traits.

As for DD I think in it’s current state it offers enough to condition damage as it is. So far it seems most lines run with an option of offensive/defensive and utility. I will agree with you that there are more “power” options than condition options in this trait line, the power options benefit more builds. As I stated before the thief condition build is more of a 50/50 (50% direct/50%condition damage) which means it still benefits from power.

BrunoBRS.5178:

except calling it by a pet name doesn’t give me anything about what the build itself is. i could very well know the build, but not recognize it because you’re calling it by a name that doesn’t describe the build.

It would have taken an eighth as long to just type “GW2 super unicorn” into Google .

The full name is of course “Leaping Super Immortal Death Troll Legendary Unicorn Blossom”

Link to full discussion here.

My Daredevil-ized version.

Main thing is it uses high number-of-hit attacks (D/D 3, P/P 3, daggerstorm) as massive self-heals. Caltrop bleeding and direct strikes do most of your damage.

Why is Shadow Arts still the only viable way to remove conditions now? If you want to push evasions over stealth for a more mobile playstyle, give it better condition removal or even transferal. And the only reason SA is the best condition removal is because we can sit in stealth and WAIT for them to tick off while we heal with the SA GM trait, not because it removes them super quick. HoT has WAY too many conditions and it’s becoming a problem for the evasion based thief. Try something that is static, a simple 1 condi removal on dodge, regardless if it was a successful evade or not. S/D is currently the only way to condi remove while playing evasion. Sword 2 is fine for 1v1 condition removal, but if I’m going to 1v1 someone, I’m just going to use d/p anyways. S/D is for the group fights, it’s condi removal should reflect that. It would be really something if the dodges gave condition removal IN the GM trait, not the trait tier before it. As in on Bound, successful hit of this skill removing 1-2 conditions on a 5-10s cooldown. Just what I’ve noticed playing DD so far.

Karl McLain.5604:

Here’s a couple other updates that had been in the works and are now in testing.

• Vault: Reduced aftercast by 80ms. Added a 500ms evade at the start of the ability.
• Distracting Daggers: Projectiles from this ability are now counted as 100% projectile finishers.
• Impairing Daggers: Projectiles from this ability are now counted as 100% projectile finishers.
• Weakening Strikes: This trait now grants 10% damage reduction when being struck by a weakened foe, in addition to weakening foes on critical hit.

Thanks for the update Karl, but a lot of us are more concerned about Staff in general. I hope you guys are still working on it; especially skills 2, 3, and 4. It needs a lot more to be competitive in comparison to the other weapon sets.

BrunoBRS.5178:

except calling it by a pet name doesn’t give me anything about what the build itself is. i could very well know the build, but not recognize it because you’re calling it by a name that doesn’t describe the build.

It’s almost like he’s trying very hard to widespread the term for a build that he believes no one else has every used before.

Silverbolt.2301:

It’s almost like he’s trying very hard to widespread the term for a build that he believes no one else has every used before.

Except it’s not my name or build. Its been around for ages (and clearly it’s not that widespread now).

Nike.2631:

BrunoBRS.5178:

except calling it by a pet name doesn’t give me anything about what the build itself is. i could very well know the build, but not recognize it because you’re calling it by a name that doesn’t describe the build.

It would have taken an eighth as long to just type “GW2 super unicorn” into Google .

The full name is of course “Leaping Super Immortal Death Troll Legendary Unicorn Blossom”

Link to full discussion here.

My Daredevil-ized version.

Main thing is it uses high number-of-hit attacks (D/D 3, P/P 3, daggerstorm) as massive self-heals. Caltrop bleeding and direct strikes do most of your damage.

see, i played that. except i’ve never seen it called that. that’s just a silly name for “D/D condi with assassin’s reward and SoM” or (D/D condi acro for short). came up with that exact same build (down to the undead runes) back when i first got to 80, because death blossom was my favorite GW1 skill and i always loved SoM builds.

don’t you think it’s a bit pretentious to assume people know the name a random person on a guild forum gave to one of the most popular condi thief builds back in aug. 2012? sheesh.

but on that note, yes, i’ve been longing for the moment when i can go back to D/D condi through daredevil. i gave it a few runs in stronghold last beta, it was fun. the daggers really help. that said, i didn’t use acro, because i needed deadly arts for dagger training and potent poison.

this is what i was running.

your version is awfully similar to what i used to run in PvE (i’d run shaman’s mixed with rabid though, and shadow refuge because it’s freaking shadow refuge), but it’s completely impractical in PvP. my PvP alternative is a hybrid build, to make the most out of the elite and heartseeker when i need to finish someone off. cele amulet over rampager is an obvious choice, as the damage sacrifice is well worth the extra defense, which is pretty much mandatory for PvP thief. alternatively, you can swap sigil of torment with sigil of venom and swap to carrion, works just as fine, especially if you have a herald to grant you fury. going pure condi (rabid) is not recommended, as the thief isn’t the best at condi spikes, and as such doesn’t benefit from it as much. plus, all that toughness will do little to stop the condis coming your way when you’re at 10k health.

BrunoBRS.5178:

don’t you think it’s a bit pretentious to assume people know the name a random person on a guild forum gave to one of the most popular condi thief builds back in aug. 2012? sheesh.

Not if you’re blithely assuming that a moderate number of people posting to this sub-forum were reading it then, when the name was in common use. You’ve succeeded in making me feel old. Well done .

your version is awfully similar to what i used to run in PvE (i’d run shaman’s mixed with rabid though, and shadow refuge because it’s freaking shadow refuge), but it’s completely impractical in PvP. my PvP alternative is a hybrid build, to make the most out of the elite and heartseeker when i need to finish someone off. cele amulet over rampager is an obvious choice, as the damage sacrifice is well worth the extra defense, which is pretty much mandatory for PvP thief. alternatively, you can swap sigil of torment with sigil of venom and swap to carrion, works just as fine, especially if you have a herald to grant you fury. going pure condi (rabid) is not recommended, as the thief isn’t the best at condi spikes, and as such doesn’t benefit from it as much. plus, all that toughness will do little to stop the condis coming your way when you’re at 10k health.

sPvP I tend to just play up bunkering – I don’t have to win fights I just have to make them last a really, really long time while the point’s already under my control. In practice I can usually tie up people long enough that not only are we getting a solid swing in points but a friendly +1 from my team can drop buy and murder my frustrated foe.

Nike.2631:

Not if you’re blithely assuming that a moderate number of people posting to this sub-forum were reading it then, when the name was in common use. You’ve succeeded in making me feel old. Well done .

The name was never in common use. I’ve played since beta and I’ve never seen anyone refer to that build as what you claim. Furthermore, your last response to me had a lot of assumptions regarding what I said, even though I thought I was crystal clear about it.

Idk why you’re finding the need to be so pretentious about this, but honestly, I’d prefer we keep this thread on track, discussing about how to improve DD and thief in general…not going off on a tangent about some randomly named build that you’re attempting to widespread.

Nike.2631:

Not if you’re blithely assuming that a moderate number of people posting to this sub-forum were reading it then, when the name was in common use. You’ve succeeded in making me feel old. Well done .

been around since the betas, and never heard the name, though i sure as hell heard of a lot of D/D condi builds. there’s a reason pet names for builds never caught on with GW2, it’s because we can describe any build with two to four letters and/or a role (D/D cele ele, bunker guard, S/D thief, etc.). giving it a silly name just makes it harder to convey what the build is for.

sPvP I tend to just play up bunkering – I don’t have to win fights I just have to make them last a really, really long time while the point’s already under my control. In practice I can usually tie up people long enough that not only are we getting a solid swing in points but a friendly +1 from my team can drop buy and murder my frustrated foe.

i sincerely question the usefulness of this build’s capacity for bunkering against any player with half a brain. death blossom was never reliable for dodging and has terrible aftercasting. SoM + DB only really benefits when you’re hitting entire groups (hell, DB is only more than mediocre when you’re cleaving various targets with it). your damage output is too low, and your damage mitigation is down to two dodges and a 1/4s evade with a long aftercast. you can’t CnD because you need to be visible to keep the point contested, you can’t shadowstep because the point requires contestion, you can’t even roll for initiative without rolling off the point in most places.

any half decent player would be able to decap the point and take the thief down by themselves, if a thief tried a build like that in PvP.

BrunoBRS.5178:

There’s a reason pet names for builds never caught on with GW2, it’s because we can describe any build with two to four letters and/or a role (D/D cele ele, bunker guard, S/D thief, etc.). giving it a silly name just makes it harder to convey what the build is for.

((shrug)) Either way it’s not that important. And I find your shorthand rather wildly incomplete since it incudes a vast amount of presumption about the traits being used so I guess communication breaks down both directions.

any half decent player would be able to decap the point and take the thief down by themselves, if a thief tried a build like that in PvP.

Experience says otherwise, but what do I know?

Back to the matter at hand! (new tools looking good for non-stealthy bunker thieves )

I would also like to see some of the trait lines combined a bit tighter. For instance, have all the venom share traits in one line. This is really our only group support and it seems that group support for raids is paramount.

It also seems that Acrobat is very much needed for the daredevil build.

I get the reasoning with spreading traits out among specializations, but the thief looks like a headache for raids and we’ve really gotten the short end of the stick when it comes to the new trait lines. This could be remedied by the combing of trait lines so we have more advantages.

I will say a rifle would have helped much more than a staff. The staff is a horrible weapon. In fact all of its skills can be done better on other weapons. I’m not sure why anyone would equip the staff over our other weapon sets. This was just a horrible decision on Anet’s part.

A rifle could have helped us on range, then shadow stepping in for hard melee damage then shadow out with some more range to follow. It would also have helped with venom share while ranging then shadowing in and out. This would have been a lot more fun than another short range melee weapon that doesn’t do anything particularly well.

Bane.4103:

It also seems that Acrobat is very much needed for the daredevil build.

Part of the issue with DD is actually that it makes Acro redundant. The only thing acro really brings is +vigor bonuses, but DD already gets +endurance stuff which is plenty of regen when paired with the extra dodge.

The issue now is that Acro needs a lot of love on it’s own, it can’t stand as its own line: Pain Response is a terrible condi clear (at the very least it needs to add torment and confusion), Guarded Initiation is useless, and the GM’s are outshined by minor-adept/minor-master traits in other lines, making the entire Acro line redundant on so many levels!

It seems to me like Acro suffers from a symptom of being nerfed because other lines do similar things and if combined with acro, ‘uh oh! too much synergy!’. It’s not allowed to just be good on it’s own.

Also, outside of +vigor, DDs Unhindered Combatant not only blows Acro GM ’Don’t Stop’ out of the water, it also essentially does everything in the entire Acro line. It gives you swiftness, clears inhibiting condis, and reduces condi and physical damage!

Don’t get me wrong, I love all that and thief desperately needs all of that, but what’s acro doing then?

I have a few Acro/DD builds in mind, and I tried some and they were fun, but they all essentially boil down to, ‘okay, I want to take Bound or Lotus Training, but I also want the effects of Unhindered Combatant — I know, I’ll take Acro for that!’

Woaden.9425:

The issue now is that Acro needs a lot of love on it’s own, it can’t stand as its own line: Pain Response is a terrible condi clear (at the very least it needs to add torment and confusion), Guarded Initiation is useless, and the GM’s are outshined by minor-adept/minor-master traits in other lines, making the entire Acro line redundant on so many levels!

((looks at Assassin’s Reward))

((looks at raids being built around continuous unavoidable damage))

I can’t say I agree.

I’m not adverse to Acrobatics getting a tune-up because it is sorely lacking in competitive choices even for bunkers, but you can thread your way through it.

I hope the next balance pass is a little more sweeping once they aren’t tied up with unleashing the first wave of Especs. All the professions have some TRAGIC underperformers that need attention.

Nike.2631:

((looks at Assassin’s Reward))

((looks at raids being built around continuous unavoidable damage))

I can’t say I agree.

Assassins Reward is okay. It’s like Driven Fortitude (DD Minor Master), if you spend 6 initiative. Spend 28 initiative and it’s like the mug heal! (DA Adept)

If they bump up the healing just a smidge (more than they already have) it might be a good GM. I agree it’s a good option for bunker builds, like Lowels Unicorn concept that you are fond of. I also agree that, when combined with DD, it’ll make for some great bunker heals. Combine it with Mug, Driv. Fort., Sig of Mal, et. al, and it all works great for sustain!

But again, ‘when combined with’. And it’s the least of all the heals. As a GM!

Nike.2631:

Woaden.9425:

The issue now is that Acro needs a lot of love on it’s own, it can’t stand as its own line: Pain Response is a terrible condi clear (at the very least it needs to add torment and confusion), Guarded Initiation is useless, and the GM’s are outshined by minor-adept/minor-master traits in other lines, making the entire Acro line redundant on so many levels!

((looks at Assassin’s Reward))

((looks at raids being built around continuous unavoidable damage))

I can’t say I agree.

If you need continuous healing in PvE (I say PvE because you mention raids) Invigorating Precision is a better choice, in a better traitline, than Assassin’s Reward. The only time that Acro “stands as its own line” is gimmick situations like laser disarming in Aether fractal, and even then it will be made obsolete when Daredevil is live.

GodSaw.2675:

LOVE IT.
It feels so surreal those are exactly the changes I was asking for. THANKS for the condi buff.
Concerning:
“Inflict X (torment, bleeding, something) when you weaken a foe.”

1. Idea:
How about inflicting burning on weakness Calling the trait Burning Weaknes. ( Just becasue it sounds so cool)

2. idea:
weakened foes recieve x more condition dmg. ( Would go nicely with the whole weakned idea)

3. idea
If you hit a weakened foe ad 1 to each condition stack on your foe

I would like it if there is a choice for condi thief on every trait lvl.

Also I would like to see some changes at the tier 2 traits.
From a condi thief(Pve) perspective there is just nothing worth taking here.

My idea:
Give escapist absolution a secunday trait: If you evade an attack apply x conditions to the targets arround you .

I disagreed with your first idea
thieves don’t have anyother burning conditions, so additional burning stacks won’t make any improve

Viridianna.9347:

Why is Shadow Arts still the only viable way to remove conditions now? If you want to push evasions over stealth for a more mobile playstyle, give it better condition removal or even transferal. And the only reason SA is the best condition removal is because we can sit in stealth and WAIT for them to tick off while we heal with the SA GM trait, not because it removes them super quick. HoT has WAY too many conditions and it’s becoming a problem for the evasion based thief. Try something that is static, a simple 1 condi removal on dodge, regardless if it was a successful evade or not. S/D is currently the only way to condi remove while playing evasion. Sword 2 is fine for 1v1 condition removal, but if I’m going to 1v1 someone, I’m just going to use d/p anyways. S/D is for the group fights, it’s condi removal should reflect that. It would be really something if the dodges gave condition removal IN the GM trait, not the trait tier before it. As in on Bound, successful hit of this skill removing 1-2 conditions on a 5-10s cooldown. Just what I’ve noticed playing DD so far.

I have said it a lot of times, but I just secretly will repeat it (Hoping that Karl doesn’t forget): I really hope that Thief can have a little bit more condi cleanse too, or maybe make Escapist Absolution swapped with the grandmaster minor. Especially since some condition builds can do 9 stacks of burning in only 1 or 2 seconds. Right now (without shadow arts) that is kind of instant death for a thief:P

I don’t think there will be too much changes though, after all, there’s only 10 days left before HoT release #LookingForwardToIt!

BIRDPUNCHER.8263:

Nike.2631:

Woaden.9425:

The issue now is that Acro needs a lot of love on it’s own, it can’t stand as its own line: Pain Response is a terrible condi clear (at the very least it needs to add torment and confusion), Guarded Initiation is useless, and the GM’s are outshined by minor-adept/minor-master traits in other lines, making the entire Acro line redundant on so many levels!

((looks at Assassin’s Reward))

((looks at raids being built around continuous unavoidable damage))

I can’t say I agree.

If you need continuous healing in PvE (I say PvE because you mention raids) Invigorating Precision is a better choice, in a better traitline, than Assassin’s Reward. The only time that Acro “stands as its own line” is gimmick situations like laser disarming in Aether fractal, and even then it will be made obsolete when Daredevil is live.

If you are going power certainly. If you are going condition in a unicorn build IP is a poor choice. IP needs high crits and high damage per crit. Assassins reward the damage is immaterial.

That all said without changes assassins reward does not warrant a GM trait. It needs a significant increase in its healing per INI and with its scaling to healing attribute.

It currently 69*INI +.05 healing and should be closer to 90 healing base and .15 healing. This would put its heal more in line with IP.

Kill.3458:

Ugh the 21st cant come sooner, really want to mess with a P/P, Staff build in PvP!!!

isnt it coming out on the 23rd

babazhook.6805:

BIRDPUNCHER.8263:

Nike.2631:

Woaden.9425:

The issue now is that Acro needs a lot of love on it’s own, it can’t stand as its own line: Pain Response is a terrible condi clear (at the very least it needs to add torment and confusion), Guarded Initiation is useless, and the GM’s are outshined by minor-adept/minor-master traits in other lines, making the entire Acro line redundant on so many levels!

((looks at Assassin’s Reward))

((looks at raids being built around continuous unavoidable damage))

I can’t say I agree.

If you need continuous healing in PvE (I say PvE because you mention raids) Invigorating Precision is a better choice, in a better traitline, than Assassin’s Reward. The only time that Acro “stands as its own line” is gimmick situations like laser disarming in Aether fractal, and even then it will be made obsolete when Daredevil is live.

If you are going power certainly. If you are going condition in a unicorn build IP is a poor choice. IP needs high crits and high damage per crit. Assassins reward the damage is immaterial.

That all said without changes assassins reward does not warrant a GM trait. It needs a significant increase in its healing per INI and with its scaling to healing attribute.

It currently 69*INI +.05 healing and should be closer to 90 healing base and .15 healing. This would put its heal more in line with IP.

not that condi builds have a good reason to run acro in the first place. they probably want DA and trickery, and SA if they go for venoms. that leaves a choice between acro and daredevil. daredevil might not have a lot to offer in volume of traits, but the few traits condi users can benefit from are great, plus it gives access to impairing daggers. meanwhile acro… meh?

BrunoBRS.5178:

babazhook.6805:

BIRDPUNCHER.8263:

Nike.2631:

Woaden.9425:

The issue now is that Acro needs a lot of love on it’s own, it can’t stand as its own line: Pain Response is a terrible condi clear (at the very least it needs to add torment and confusion), Guarded Initiation is useless, and the GM’s are outshined by minor-adept/minor-master traits in other lines, making the entire Acro line redundant on so many levels!

((looks at Assassin’s Reward))

((looks at raids being built around continuous unavoidable damage))

I can’t say I agree.

If you need continuous healing in PvE (I say PvE because you mention raids) Invigorating Precision is a better choice, in a better traitline, than Assassin’s Reward. The only time that Acro “stands as its own line” is gimmick situations like laser disarming in Aether fractal, and even then it will be made obsolete when Daredevil is live.

If you are going power certainly. If you are going condition in a unicorn build IP is a poor choice. IP needs high crits and high damage per crit. Assassins reward the damage is immaterial.

That all said without changes assassins reward does not warrant a GM trait. It needs a significant increase in its healing per INI and with its scaling to healing attribute.

It currently 69*INI +.05 healing and should be closer to 90 healing base and .15 healing. This would put its heal more in line with IP.

not that condi builds have a good reason to run acro in the first place. they probably want DA and trickery, and SA if they go for venoms. that leaves a choice between acro and daredevil. daredevil might not have a lot to offer in volume of traits, but the few traits condi users can benefit from are great, plus it gives access to impairing daggers. meanwhile acro… meh?

Actually there is(and more was) good reason to take Acro in a condition build .

dd/acro/da works well as does dd/acro/trickery. I also tried sa/dd/acro and the sustain was incredible. I used acro prior to the big patch because it gave health and a lot of dodges for the D/d set. In beta I ran tests with acro and the difference between traiting trickery and acro was not a lot.

Now it true many of the additions to DD make what is acro less desired from before patch but this is also true of power builds. If ACRO fixed i can forsee condition builds using it. Just as example HTC will refill endurance when triggered which can mean three more impaling lotus. This more condition damage loaded than one can get from BA or that extra 3 ini.

With the changes to Potent Poison the DA line is a little harder to give up in a condition build but i can certainly forsee someone going for maximum endurance for those dodges and that impaling lotus so as to increase condition damage and specifically in a d/d build and especially if the line is fixed.

babazhook.6805:

BrunoBRS.5178:

babazhook.6805:

BIRDPUNCHER.8263:

Nike.2631:

Woaden.9425:

The issue now is that Acro needs a lot of love on it’s own, it can’t stand as its own line: Pain Response is a terrible condi clear (at the very least it needs to add torment and confusion), Guarded Initiation is useless, and the GM’s are outshined by minor-adept/minor-master traits in other lines, making the entire Acro line redundant on so many levels!

((looks at Assassin’s Reward))

((looks at raids being built around continuous unavoidable damage))

I can’t say I agree.

If you need continuous healing in PvE (I say PvE because you mention raids) Invigorating Precision is a better choice, in a better traitline, than Assassin’s Reward. The only time that Acro “stands as its own line” is gimmick situations like laser disarming in Aether fractal, and even then it will be made obsolete when Daredevil is live.

If you are going power certainly. If you are going condition in a unicorn build IP is a poor choice. IP needs high crits and high damage per crit. Assassins reward the damage is immaterial.

That all said without changes assassins reward does not warrant a GM trait. It needs a significant increase in its healing per INI and with its scaling to healing attribute.

It currently 69*INI +.05 healing and should be closer to 90 healing base and .15 healing. This would put its heal more in line with IP.

not that condi builds have a good reason to run acro in the first place. they probably want DA and trickery, and SA if they go for venoms. that leaves a choice between acro and daredevil. daredevil might not have a lot to offer in volume of traits, but the few traits condi users can benefit from are great, plus it gives access to impairing daggers. meanwhile acro… meh?

Actually there is(and more was) good reason to take Acro in a condition build .

dd/acro/da works well as does dd/acro/trickery. I used acro prior to the big patch because it gave health and a lot of dodges for the D/d set. In beta I ran tests with acro and the difference between traiting trickery and acro was not a lot.

Now it true many of the additions to DD make what is acro less desired from before patch but this is also true of power builds. If ACRO fixed i can forsee condition builds using it. Just as example HTC will refill endurance when triggered which can mean three more impaling lotus. This more condition damage loaded than one can get from BA or that extra 3 ini.

With the changes to Potent Poison the DA line is a little harder to give up in a condition build but i can certainly forsee someone going for maximum endurance for those dodges and that impaling lotus so as to increase condition damage and specifically in a d/d build and especially if the line is fixed.

it’s not just bewildering ambush, it’s caltrops on dodge as well, and bountiful theft gives you solid vigor uptime on top of stealing boons (to get rid of that resistance). then you have the reduced steal cooldown, which means endurance thief can be used more often as well.

not bringing DA is just out of question unless you’re running P/D condi, because dagger training + potent poison is a huge DPS increase.

which leaves acro competing with daredevil, which just isn’t happening.

IMO, acro should be a better defensive line, themed around vigor (and making your vigor do more cool stuff, like how other professions have “gain X benefit when you gain Y boon”), keeping the thief mobile, and defensive/utility benefits through dodging (whereas daredevil is all about using dodges offensively). the line in itself is already pointing towards that, it’s just grossly undertuned (swindler’s equilibrium being restricted to sword and only recharging one second, when trickery just outright takes those seconds off the max cooldown, for example) and clunky (pain response only removes 3 of the current 5 damaging conditions, only triggers if you let yourself get hit, and can be triggered when you don’t want it to, putting it on a long 20s CD)

to note: i’d still love a thief trait that cleanses one condition on shadowstep, which would be a perfect fit for an acro trait. i know it’s ridiculously strong, so make it a GM, and put assassin’s reward back on master tier where it belongs.