Guild Wars 2

Karolis.4261:

Xae Isareth.1364:

You know, after all this, I’ll probably still use the skill. Because like warrior axe #5, its just such a kitten skill.

In PvE, if you’re playing thief, you’re not ‘optimised’ anyways generally since you’re not an ele/warrior/guardian, so may as well unoptimise yourself in style.

Dont get me wrong, there is nothing wrong in using death blossom if u like it in…open world pve, www, spvp. But when it comes to dungeons you are gimping your group by doing so in comparison of taking S/P for aoe that also provides wonderful group utility -black powder.
And thief is “Optimised” enough and does as much or even more dps then glorified warriors, that everyone and their grandmother plays with their googled builds and no actual insight to class, but requires much more from a player to survive because of pretty much 2x lower ehp.

Warrior is third at best on the DPS scale lol. Ele is king in DPS.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Karolis.4261:

Xae Isareth.1364:

You know, after all this, I’ll probably still use the skill. Because like warrior axe #5, its just such a kitten skill.

In PvE, if you’re playing thief, you’re not ‘optimised’ anyways generally since you’re not an ele/warrior/guardian, so may as well unoptimise yourself in style.

Dont get me wrong, there is nothing wrong in using death blossom if u like it in…open world pve, www, spvp. But when it comes to dungeons you are gimping your group by doing so in comparison of taking S/P for aoe that also provides wonderful group utility -black powder.
And thief is “Optimised” enough and does as much or even more dps then glorified warriors, that everyone and their grandmother plays with their googled builds and no actual insight to class, but requires much more from a player to survive because of pretty much 2x lower ehp.

Warrior is third at best on the DPS scale lol. Ele is king in DPS.

And that dps scale i based on what ? Dps meters? Oh w8 we don’t have any and thank god. According to same scale thief is second I believe. SO much from being “unoptimised”. And I dont think that ele is such a huge dps on its own, its more of what he brings to group and thats fury, 25 stacks of might in a blink of an eye (what increases all partys damage, not only its own) and fgs, which is broken as kitten and anet has no clue what to do with it w/o breaking it.

Edit: GOD kitten IT ANET, GIMME MY POSTING PRIVILEGES BACK!

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Fluffy KITTEN!

Karolis.4261:

Right, lets go to calculations. No buffs, no stacks.
Single pistol whip does 12-13 k damage on lvl 80 mob. Auto attack chain does roughly the same, in almost same time frame (Pistol whip has 2.2s cast time according to wiki and auto attack chain takes pretty much the same for bare eye). So 12k/2.2 = 5454 dps. Honestly… reason to use pistolwhip is stun, higher number of cleaved targets, signet of malice proc and evade, not much higher dps.

Single bleed stack does 120 dps with around 1500 condition damage. 25 stacks of bleed would do 120*25=3000 dps. Single death blossom+auto attack chain (which cant cleave so in aoe situation it would drop dps, but lets assume it cleaves) in carrion gear would do 450(db) + 2500(aa including 3 seconds of poison from last aa chain) damage in roughly 3s time so( 2500 + 450)/3 = about 1000 dps and you can use death blossom every 3s at most (1ini regen every 1s, lets include any ini regen traits u might have, allthough every other deathblossom you would have to follow with 2 auto attack chains to regen initiative) for sustained dps. So we have 3000 dps from 25stacks of bleed and 1000 dps from physical damage and poison = 4000 dps. Now that would happen only if you could keep 25 stacks of bleed constantly which u can’t. In reality you can keep around 10 stacks of bleeds while bumping up to 18-20 very briefly with caltrops (25 maybe if you go balls deep in DB spam, but then u get initiative starved), so your 3k dps from bleeds is actually more like 1500 dps what drops total dps to 2500. You can pick any gear any build, be it full berserker, hybrid celestial or full condi carion, rabid, even rampager with all its precision and no crit power (not even mentioning dire, cause that would decrease physical part of damage even more), none of that would come even close to what aoe damage full berserker S/P can pump out.
If we would take into account grp damage where vulnerability comes into play, damage gap would be even wider.
Conclusion: Death blossom is kitten poor excuse of aoe skill, same as d/d is a kitten poor excuse of aoe weapon set. If you are running D/D and know that you will have to aoe (and you will have to aoe pretty much everywhere), bring real aoe weapon as secondary.

i agree that pistol whip do more damage then death blossom in some way. but death blossom is not usless and it is one of the important skills in condition builds, when you are in melee fights. (for example: you can stack bleeds fast). for me Pistol whip is boring in the same way that death blossom is boring for some people. so is comes to players preference. if you like power builds ok fine go for it, if you like condition builds ok fine go for it. but death blossom is the only melee weapon skill that apply bleeds (if you dont count one dagger i main hand and none weapon in off hand). i think Anet will support both and it would be weird if Anet just take death blossom away just because some power build users dont like it.

Karolis.4261:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Karolis.4261:

Xae Isareth.1364:

You know, after all this, I’ll probably still use the skill. Because like warrior axe #5, its just such a kitten skill.

In PvE, if you’re playing thief, you’re not ‘optimised’ anyways generally since you’re not an ele/warrior/guardian, so may as well unoptimise yourself in style.

Dont get me wrong, there is nothing wrong in using death blossom if u like it in…open world pve, www, spvp. But when it comes to dungeons you are gimping your group by doing so in comparison of taking S/P for aoe that also provides wonderful group utility -black powder.
And thief is “Optimised” enough and does as much or even more dps then glorified warriors, that everyone and their grandmother plays with their googled builds and no actual insight to class, but requires much more from a player to survive because of pretty much 2x lower ehp.

Warrior is third at best on the DPS scale lol. Ele is king in DPS.

And that dps scale i based on what ? Dps meters? Oh w8 we don’t have any and thank god. According to same scale thief is second I believe. SO much from being “unoptimised”. And I dont think that ele is such a huge dps on its own, its more of what he brings to group and thats fury, 25 stacks of might in a blink of an eye (what increases all partys damage, not only its own) and fgs, which is broken as kitten and anet has no clue what to do with it w/o breaking it.

From highest damage rotations. We don’t have a DPS meter so what people do is do a 30 second perfect rotation on indes. golem in the mists, check the combat log, record totoal coefficients, and calculate maximum DPS from that.

Thief is behind ele for sure, and other than stealth, which some people/dungeons need, others don’t thieves contribute little to group DPS, so you may as well take an ele over it. Warriors aren’t wanted for their DPS in proper speedrun groups, they need 1 or 2 for banners and EA, thats it.

Famps.7461:

Karolis.4261:

Right, lets go to calculations. No buffs, no stacks.
Single pistol whip does 12-13 k damage on lvl 80 mob. Auto attack chain does roughly the same, in almost same time frame (Pistol whip has 2.2s cast time according to wiki and auto attack chain takes pretty much the same for bare eye). So 12k/2.2 = 5454 dps. Honestly… reason to use pistolwhip is stun, higher number of cleaved targets, signet of malice proc and evade, not much higher dps.

Single bleed stack does 120 dps with around 1500 condition damage. 25 stacks of bleed would do 120*25=3000 dps. Single death blossom+auto attack chain (which cant cleave so in aoe situation it would drop dps, but lets assume it cleaves) in carrion gear would do 450(db) + 2500(aa including 3 seconds of poison from last aa chain) damage in roughly 3s time so( 2500 + 450)/3 = about 1000 dps and you can use death blossom every 3s at most (1ini regen every 1s, lets include any ini regen traits u might have, allthough every other deathblossom you would have to follow with 2 auto attack chains to regen initiative) for sustained dps. So we have 3000 dps from 25stacks of bleed and 1000 dps from physical damage and poison = 4000 dps. Now that would happen only if you could keep 25 stacks of bleed constantly which u can’t. In reality you can keep around 10 stacks of bleeds while bumping up to 18-20 very briefly with caltrops (25 maybe if you go balls deep in DB spam, but then u get initiative starved), so your 3k dps from bleeds is actually more like 1500 dps what drops total dps to 2500. You can pick any gear any build, be it full berserker, hybrid celestial or full condi carion, rabid, even rampager with all its precision and no crit power (not even mentioning dire, cause that would decrease physical part of damage even more), none of that would come even close to what aoe damage full berserker S/P can pump out.
If we would take into account grp damage where vulnerability comes into play, damage gap would be even wider.
Conclusion: Death blossom is kitten poor excuse of aoe skill, same as d/d is a kitten poor excuse of aoe weapon set. If you are running D/D and know that you will have to aoe (and you will have to aoe pretty much everywhere), bring real aoe weapon as secondary.

i agree that pistol whip do more damage then death blossom in some way. but death blossom is not usless and it is one of the important skills in condition builds, when you are in melee fights. (for example: you can stack bleeds fast). for me Pistol whip is boring in the same way that death blossom is boring for some people. so is comes to players preference. if you like power builds ok fine go for it, if you like condition builds ok fine go for it. but death blossom is the only melee weapon skill that apply bleeds (if you dont count one dagger i main hand and none weapon in off hand). i think Anet will support both and it would be weird if Anet just take death blossom away just because some power build users dont like it.

Because it just feels very silly to have 1 damaging condi skill randomly stuck in a set of complete power skills. Power build users won’t use DB, condi users won’t use HS/BS. So why have mutually exclusive skills in a set?

They should take it away and replace it with something more appropriate. I don’t see why it wouldn’t better fit in p/d.

PS: we wouldn’t have this problem if GW2, like most other MMOs, allowed you to customise your skillbar.

Einlanzer.1627:

You’re being pedantic to distract from the weakness of your argument.

He is not being pedantic, you’re not using realistic numbers. You have to use the coëfficients and run them through the formulas with your actual stat values and other modifiers, the ‘damage’ numbers on the wiki are insufficient.

The base values are more than adequate to judge general performance.

Power scales differently on actual builds, with critical hits and other modifiers mixing in.

Even the point about the 10 second window required for full damage is only partially relevant on account of S/P being a channel skill that does not really outdamage the autoattack.

Well, 10 seconds is a long time in PvE. Power does it’s damage when you hit and when you’ve dealt enough, stuff dies and you know you’re done. With conditions you have to wait for the conditions to do their work before you know it’s been enough, and while it looks cool to turn your back on them and wait for them to die just before they reach you, it’s a bit impractical in the long run.

Famps.7461:

i agree that pistol whip do more damage then death blossom in some way. but death blossom is not usless and it is one of the important skills in condition builds, when you are in melee fights. (for example: you can stack bleeds fast).

The problem with it is that you need a build strong in condition
damage to make it good and while you do that, you make the #1, #2 and #5 of the weaponset a lot weaker.

for me Pistol whip is boring in the same way that death blossom is boring for some people.

Stun interrupts. It is not just about damage

frans.8092:

Famps.7461:

i agree that pistol whip do more damage then death blossom in some way. but death blossom is not usless and it is one of the important skills in condition builds, when you are in melee fights. (for example: you can stack bleeds fast).

The problem with it is that you need a build strong in condition
damage to make it good and while you do that, you make the #1, #2 and #5 of the weaponset a lot weaker.

they are weaker yes, but they are still usefull. for exampel in pve, you attack stuff that cant bleed, then the other attacks are more usefull.

Stun interrupts. It is not just about damage

ok Pistol whip stun, but that dont change that i think S/P Pistol whip playstyle is boring.

Famps.7461:

frans.8092:

Famps.7461:

i agree that pistol whip do more damage then death blossom in some way. but death blossom is not usless and it is one of the important skills in condition builds, when you are in melee fights. (for example: you can stack bleeds fast).

The problem with it is that you need a build strong in condition
damage to make it good and while you do that, you make the #1, #2 and #5 of the weaponset a lot weaker.

they are weaker yes, but they are still usefull. for exampel in pve, you attack stuff that cant bleed, then the other attacks are more usefull.

The problem is that the d/d skill set was designed to be a hybrid, with both condi and power thrown in, but it just doesn’t work.

>>The problem is that the d/d skill set was designed to be a hybrid, with both condi and power thrown in, but it just doesn’t work.

It works if you play to its stengths and use a hybrid build.

babazhook.6805:

>>The problem is that the d/d skill set was designed to be a hybrid, with both condi and power thrown in, but it just doesn’t work.

It works if you play to its stengths and use a hybrid build.

What are the strengths of a hybrid d/d build then? Why should I choose it over a power d/d build?

I use Death Blossom with Rampager gear, tho I’ve switched weapons, food, 2 points on deadly arts and runes to give me +100% condition duration on my thief.

I haven’t tried WvW or PvP yet though.

2-4-0-4-4
Sundering Strikes, Signets of Power, Signet Use, Vigorous Recovery, Quick Recovery, Uncatchable and Initial Strike.

Withdraw, Infiltrator’s Signet, Signet of Shadows, Signet of Agility and Basilisk Venom. (Can substitute Elite skills, either Dagger Storm or Avatar of Grenth)

Superior Runes of Lich x4(+1) and Lyssa x2.
Sigil of Torment(D), Corruption(D) and Earth(P)
Armor is Exotic Rampager but jewels are rare Coral set.
3 Exotic Giver’s weapons= 2 daggers and 1 pistol (D-P/D)

Food and Utility:
Rare Veggie Pizza(40% cond dur and 70 +cond dmg) and Toxic Tuning Crystal(10% cond dur and 100 +cond dmg)

Unfortunately, since my jewels are just rare, I can achieve 1128 cond dmg with 25 corruption stacks and food at the moment and +100% cond dur doubles the durations of all conditions I inflict.

However, I’m not using conditions as only dmg source, I use the other skills, since I have high crit chance and mediocre amount of power, tho most of the time HS deals over 2k dmg on crit and backstab inflicts over 2.5k.
Though since mobs are usual zerker feed right now, hopefully in future we get more variation, which isn’t your basic zerker feed.

With the traits, my thief can inflict Vulnerability (12sec trait, 10sec CaD), Poison (8sec DAA, 20 sec Steal), Bleeding (20 sec DB, 8sec PAA and caltrops, 10sec sigil), Torment (10sec sigil and SStrike) and Cripple (6sec DancingD, 10sec caltrops)

Additional conditions from stolen enviromental weapons varies too much so I’m not including them.

Just wanted to add my 2 cents as someone who played d/d sb as a hybrid condi roamer for a while. The proof:

The videos a little old… I use d/d p/d when roaming now. I like to think of d/d on condition builds as a portable aoe circle of death for less mobile targets. It’s main weakness is the slow movement during the animation, which can make it susceptible to kiting from range.

A d/d death blossom build allows a much greater condition burst than p/d and a higher sustained damage output than d/d power builds. The problem with d/d power builds is you are inevitably going to be a little glassy if you have decent damage, meaning you can only keep up the damage pressure for a couple of seconds on a good player. The dps will be higher over 1-5 seconds, but over 10-15? Nope. I’m also assuming there are some cover conditions in your build for enemy cleanses, otherwise all those bleeds will be pointless.

On paper power s/p evade builds have better sustained dps. In reality, I find this isn’t true since you will get hit far more often. Spamming pistol whip for the evade and a as a source of sustained direct damage will get you killed since will you quickly run out of initiative and your opponent will have dodged 1/2 of you pistol whip damage. Stunning from stealth can work well, but since s/p has limited stealth access….. you would have to use d/p or d/d as complimentary weapon set.

Another thing to note, as with all condition builds organised groups of 5+ in WvW will just cleanse most of your damage. For PvE d/d condition can be very good in PUG groups. Taking signet of malice with caltops and daggerstorm will ensure almost you never die. Untested in PvP.

Xae Isareth.1364:

babazhook.6805:

>>The problem is that the d/d skill set was designed to be a hybrid, with both condi and power thrown in, but it just doesn’t work.

It works if you play to its stengths and use a hybrid build.

What are the strengths of a hybrid d/d build then? Why should I choose it over a power d/d build?

i dont know about the strenght but i would say you choose the build you like and fun to play. if people wants to play melee condition and for them is fun to play that, then it is d/d some is the way. but if you take away that option. the melee thief is gonna be just power thief. For me Gw2 is a game that you have alot of option and every build has pros and cons, but other builds are not bad just because one specific build is “meta”. so if Anet take away death blossom, they alos take away option you can do with your thief and that is not the way to go.

Famps.7461:

Xae Isareth.1364:

babazhook.6805:

>>The problem is that the d/d skill set was designed to be a hybrid, with both condi and power thrown in, but it just doesn’t work.

It works if you play to its stengths and use a hybrid build.

What are the strengths of a hybrid d/d build then? Why should I choose it over a power d/d build?

i dont know about the strenght but i would say you choose the build you like and fun to play. if people wants to play melee condition and for them is fun to play that, then it is d/d some is the way. but if you take away that option. the melee thief is gonna be just power thief. For me Gw2 is a game that you have alot of option and every build has pros and cons, but other builds are not bad just because one specific build is “meta”. so if Anet take away death blossom, they alos take away option you can do with your thief and that is not the way to go.

Why can’t they just put DD as the p/d DW skill then? That’s a proper condi setup without most of your skills being power-based. IF you want to play ‘melee’ condi, all you’re gonna do is basically caltrops+evadetrops+3333333333 with some auto attacks mixed in. I don’t know about you, but that doesn’t seem like a fun build and I don’t think Anet went ‘yep, this is perfect, you just spam 3, so much fun’.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Famps.7461:

Xae Isareth.1364:

babazhook.6805:

>>The problem is that the d/d skill set was designed to be a hybrid, with both condi and power thrown in, but it just doesn’t work.

It works if you play to its stengths and use a hybrid build.

What are the strengths of a hybrid d/d build then? Why should I choose it over a power d/d build?

i dont know about the strenght but i would say you choose the build you like and fun to play. if people wants to play melee condition and for them is fun to play that, then it is d/d some is the way. but if you take away that option. the melee thief is gonna be just power thief. For me Gw2 is a game that you have alot of option and every build has pros and cons, but other builds are not bad just because one specific build is “meta”. so if Anet take away death blossom, they alos take away option you can do with your thief and that is not the way to go.

Why can’t they just put DD as the p/d DW skill then? That’s a proper condi setup without most of your skills being power-based. IF you want to play ‘melee’ condi, all you’re gonna do is basically caltrops+evadetrops+3333333333 with some auto attacks mixed in. I don’t know about you, but that doesn’t seem like a fun build and I don’t think Anet went ‘yep, this is perfect, you just spam 3, so much fun’.

but if you take in DB in p/D you take away shadow strike and that skill is really good in p/d. should you take that in d/d. nope you cant, because you cant shoot one with just daggers. as i see it, you must take away DB completly if you dont wanna mess with other weapon setups..

But to spam Pistol whip is not fun either and not the thing Anet wants it.

Famps.7461:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Famps.7461:

Xae Isareth.1364:

babazhook.6805:

>>The problem is that the d/d skill set was designed to be a hybrid, with both condi and power thrown in, but it just doesn’t work.

It works if you play to its stengths and use a hybrid build.

What are the strengths of a hybrid d/d build then? Why should I choose it over a power d/d build?

i dont know about the strenght but i would say you choose the build you like and fun to play. if people wants to play melee condition and for them is fun to play that, then it is d/d some is the way. but if you take away that option. the melee thief is gonna be just power thief. For me Gw2 is a game that you have alot of option and every build has pros and cons, but other builds are not bad just because one specific build is “meta”. so if Anet take away death blossom, they alos take away option you can do with your thief and that is not the way to go.

Why can’t they just put DD as the p/d DW skill then? That’s a proper condi setup without most of your skills being power-based. IF you want to play ‘melee’ condi, all you’re gonna do is basically caltrops+evadetrops+3333333333 with some auto attacks mixed in. I don’t know about you, but that doesn’t seem like a fun build and I don’t think Anet went ‘yep, this is perfect, you just spam 3, so much fun’.

but if you take in DB in p/D you take away shadow strike and that skill is really good in p/d. should you take that in d/d. nope you cant, because you cant shoot one with just daggers. as i see it, you must take away DB completly if you dont wanna mess with other weapon setups..

But to spam Pistol whip is not fun either and not the thing Anet wants it.

To be honest, the best solution would just be to let us choose.

You don’t spam pistol whip on s/p. Why would you spam PW anyways? Its damage is not that different from your AA chain and that initiative is better used to blinds/IS/interrupts.

On condi d/d you spam DB because theres nothing better to do with your initiative. Every other skill will hit like wet noodles noodles because they’re all power based. As things stand, you either don’t use DB at all, or that’s the only skill you use.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Famps.7461:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Famps.7461:

Xae Isareth.1364:

babazhook.6805:

>>The problem is that the d/d skill set was designed to be a hybrid, with both condi and power thrown in, but it just doesn’t work.

It works if you play to its stengths and use a hybrid build.

What are the strengths of a hybrid d/d build then? Why should I choose it over a power d/d build?

i dont know about the strenght but i would say you choose the build you like and fun to play. if people wants to play melee condition and for them is fun to play that, then it is d/d some is the way. but if you take away that option. the melee thief is gonna be just power thief. For me Gw2 is a game that you have alot of option and every build has pros and cons, but other builds are not bad just because one specific build is “meta”. so if Anet take away death blossom, they alos take away option you can do with your thief and that is not the way to go.

Why can’t they just put DD as the p/d DW skill then? That’s a proper condi setup without most of your skills being power-based. IF you want to play ‘melee’ condi, all you’re gonna do is basically caltrops+evadetrops+3333333333 with some auto attacks mixed in. I don’t know about you, but that doesn’t seem like a fun build and I don’t think Anet went ‘yep, this is perfect, you just spam 3, so much fun’.

but if you take in DB in p/D you take away shadow strike and that skill is really good in p/d. should you take that in d/d. nope you cant, because you cant shoot one with just daggers. as i see it, you must take away DB completly if you dont wanna mess with other weapon setups..

But to spam Pistol whip is not fun either and not the thing Anet wants it.

To be honest, the best solution would just be to let us choose.

You don’t spam pistol whip on s/p. Why would you spam PW anyways? Its damage is not that different from your AA chain and that initiative is better used to blinds/IS/interrupts.

On condi d/d you spam DB because theres nothing better to do with your initiative. Every other skill will hit like wet noodles noodles because they’re all power based. As things stand, you either don’t use DB at all, or that’s the only skill you use.

No. You certainly use DB more with a condi build and less without one, but they aren’t mutually exclusive because all the skills have different specialties. The deciding factor is a combination of context and build, not build alone.

Also, you do know that Power improves both physical and condi damage right, and that the trait line that improves power improves your conditions, meaning that if you’re building for power your condition damage will not be as terrible as you keep implying? I’ll assume you meant crit based .

Einlanzer.1627:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Famps.7461:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Famps.7461:

Xae Isareth.1364:

babazhook.6805:

>>The problem is that the d/d skill set was designed to be a hybrid, with both condi and power thrown in, but it just doesn’t work.

It works if you play to its stengths and use a hybrid build.

What are the strengths of a hybrid d/d build then? Why should I choose it over a power d/d build?

i dont know about the strenght but i would say you choose the build you like and fun to play. if people wants to play melee condition and for them is fun to play that, then it is d/d some is the way. but if you take away that option. the melee thief is gonna be just power thief. For me Gw2 is a game that you have alot of option and every build has pros and cons, but other builds are not bad just because one specific build is “meta”. so if Anet take away death blossom, they alos take away option you can do with your thief and that is not the way to go.

Why can’t they just put DD as the p/d DW skill then? That’s a proper condi setup without most of your skills being power-based. IF you want to play ‘melee’ condi, all you’re gonna do is basically caltrops+evadetrops+3333333333 with some auto attacks mixed in. I don’t know about you, but that doesn’t seem like a fun build and I don’t think Anet went ‘yep, this is perfect, you just spam 3, so much fun’.

but if you take in DB in p/D you take away shadow strike and that skill is really good in p/d. should you take that in d/d. nope you cant, because you cant shoot one with just daggers. as i see it, you must take away DB completly if you dont wanna mess with other weapon setups..

But to spam Pistol whip is not fun either and not the thing Anet wants it.

To be honest, the best solution would just be to let us choose.

You don’t spam pistol whip on s/p. Why would you spam PW anyways? Its damage is not that different from your AA chain and that initiative is better used to blinds/IS/interrupts.

On condi d/d you spam DB because theres nothing better to do with your initiative. Every other skill will hit like wet noodles noodles because they’re all power based. As things stand, you either don’t use DB at all, or that’s the only skill you use.

No. You certainly use DB more with a condi build and less without one, but they aren’t mutually exclusive because all the skills have different specialties. The deciding factor is a combination of context and build, not build alone.

Also, you do know that Power improves both physical and condi damage right, and that the trait line that improves power improves your conditions, meaning that if you’re building for power your condition damage will not be as terrible as you keep implying? I’ll assume you meant crit based .

Let’s just take a PvE context for now.

The problem is, what would you use DB for in a power build? Its definitely not very good for single damage, its evade is very unreliable, even if you do use it as an evade, it seems awfully wasteful to use 4 initiative for just an evade, and finally, your condi damage won’t be high enough to support its bleed, so… what’s the point of it?

I’m quite sure power doesnt increase condition damage. If it does, we’ve been theorycrafting wrong all along then lol. Might increases condition damage though.

The trait line that increases power increases condition duration, not condition damage.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Let’s just take a PvE context for now.

The problem is, what would you use DB for in a power build? Its definitely not very good for single damage, its evade is very unreliable, even if you do use it as an evade, it seems awfully wasteful to use 4 initiative for just an evade, and finally, your condi damage won’t be high enough to support its bleed, so… what’s the point of it?

I’m quite sure power doesnt increase condition damage. If it does, we’ve been theorycrafting wrong all along then lol. Might increases condition damage though.

The trait line that increases power increases condition duration, not condition damage.

Yeah, I worded that poorly. What I meant is that even in a power focused build you’re likely to have more than baseline condition damage. Condition duration affects condition damage by a significant amount by extending the length of the bleed.

You keep acting like the damage DB does through bleeds is trivial when it simply isn’t. It’s significant even with a power build, it’s just supplemental rather than primary – intended to be used when you need to fan out AoE in melee range while remaining highly mobile. No other weapon can do that quite as well, especially considering the additional reach you get from Caltrops. The way you do it is drop caltrops, spam DB, and auto while your Ini regenerates. You have enough ini to heartseeker to finish off weakened opponents while your rather huge bleed damage is still ticking on all nearby targets, preparing them for further Heartseeking. For single target it doesn’t outDPS strict power, but it’s way more versatile, easier to sustain, and does much more substantial damage than you keep insisting. Compared to S/P, it’s just different. S/P does more damage in shorter windows, but is harder to sustain, restricts your mobility more, and requires you to have a high-power build. What melee option would you have for condition if they changed DB?

I get it – it’s not the most useful skill in a strict power build. That’s fine, and it’s by design because you already have what you need to make D/D successful as a power set. That doesn’t make it a bad skill – you get a short evade/dodge, AoE, and passive damage that applies while you do other things. Having it on D/D means:

You aren’t forced to change weapons just do deal mediocre AE damage
You aren’t shoehorned into a strict power build for D/D to be usable like with Swords You can use a non-AE set for secondary if you want and remain fairly versatile

It also happens that P/P combos well with D/D because they both arguably work best (as in all-around most functional) with hybrid setups. Going straight power with P/P like many people tend to do increases its burst, but at the expense of literally everything else.

Einlanzer.1627:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Let’s just take a PvE context for now.

The problem is, what would you use DB for in a power build? Its definitely not very good for single damage, its evade is very unreliable, even if you do use it as an evade, it seems awfully wasteful to use 4 initiative for just an evade, and finally, your condi damage won’t be high enough to support its bleed, so… what’s the point of it?

I’m quite sure power doesnt increase condition damage. If it does, we’ve been theorycrafting wrong all along then lol. Might increases condition damage though.

The trait line that increases power increases condition duration, not condition damage.

Yeah, I worded that poorly. What I meant is that even in a power focused build you’re likely to have more than baseline condition damage. Condition duration affects condition damage by a significant amount by extending the length of the bleed.

You keep acting like the damage DB does through bleeds is trivial when it simply isn’t. It’s significant even with a power build, it’s just supplemental rather than primary – intended to be used when you need to fan out AoE in melee range while remaining highly mobile. No other weapon can do that quite as well, especially considering the additional reach you get from Caltrops. The way you do it is drop caltrops, spam DB, and auto while your Ini regenerates. You have enough ini to heartseeker to finish off weakened opponents while your rather huge bleed damage is still ticking on all nearby targets, preparing them for further Heartseeking. For single target it doesn’t outDPS strict power, but it’s way more versatile, easier to sustain, and does much more substantial damage than you keep insisting. Compared to S/P, it’s just different. S/P does more damage in shorter windows, but is harder to sustain, restricts your mobility more, and requires you to have a high-power build. What melee option would you have for condition if they changed DB?

I get it – it’s not the most useful skill in a strict power build. That’s fine, and it’s by design because you already have what you need to make D/D successful as a power set. That doesn’t make it a bad skill – you get a short evade/dodge, AoE, and passive damage that applies while you do other things. Having it on D/D means:

You aren’t forced to change weapons just do deal mediocre AE damage
You aren’t shoehorned into a strict power build for D/D to be usable like with Swords You can use a non-AE set for secondary if you want and remain fairly versatile

It also happens that P/P combos well with D/D because they both arguably work best (as in all-around most functional) with hybrid setups. Going straight power with P/P like many people tend to do increases its burst, but at the expense of literally everything else.

Yeah I also paired d/d with p/p and called them “all-around most functional” when i just started to play, but in time i learned to play and realized that “all-around most functional” weapons are s/p and shortbow. o,O

Karolis.4261:

Einlanzer.1627:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Let’s just take a PvE context for now.

The problem is, what would you use DB for in a power build? Its definitely not very good for single damage, its evade is very unreliable, even if you do use it as an evade, it seems awfully wasteful to use 4 initiative for just an evade, and finally, your condi damage won’t be high enough to support its bleed, so… what’s the point of it?

I’m quite sure power doesnt increase condition damage. If it does, we’ve been theorycrafting wrong all along then lol. Might increases condition damage though.

The trait line that increases power increases condition duration, not condition damage.

Yeah, I worded that poorly. What I meant is that even in a power focused build you’re likely to have more than baseline condition damage. Condition duration affects condition damage by a significant amount by extending the length of the bleed.

You keep acting like the damage DB does through bleeds is trivial when it simply isn’t. It’s significant even with a power build, it’s just supplemental rather than primary – intended to be used when you need to fan out AoE in melee range while remaining highly mobile. No other weapon can do that quite as well, especially considering the additional reach you get from Caltrops. The way you do it is drop caltrops, spam DB, and auto while your Ini regenerates. You have enough ini to heartseeker to finish off weakened opponents while your rather huge bleed damage is still ticking on all nearby targets, preparing them for further Heartseeking. For single target it doesn’t outDPS strict power, but it’s way more versatile, easier to sustain, and does much more substantial damage than you keep insisting. Compared to S/P, it’s just different. S/P does more damage in shorter windows, but is harder to sustain, restricts your mobility more, and requires you to have a high-power build. What melee option would you have for condition if they changed DB?

I get it – it’s not the most useful skill in a strict power build. That’s fine, and it’s by design because you already have what you need to make D/D successful as a power set. That doesn’t make it a bad skill – you get a short evade/dodge, AoE, and passive damage that applies while you do other things. Having it on D/D means:

You aren’t forced to change weapons just do deal mediocre AE damage
You aren’t shoehorned into a strict power build for D/D to be usable like with Swords You can use a non-AE set for secondary if you want and remain fairly versatile

It also happens that P/P combos well with D/D because they both arguably work best (as in all-around most functional) with hybrid setups. Going straight power with P/P like many people tend to do increases its burst, but at the expense of literally everything else.

Yeah I also paired d/d with p/p and called them “all-around most functional” when i just started to play, but in time i learned to play and realized that “all-around most functional” weapons are s/p and shortbow. o,O

Cool story bro.

Einlanzer.1627:

Karolis.4261:

Einlanzer.1627:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Let’s just take a PvE context for now.

The problem is, what would you use DB for in a power build? Its definitely not very good for single damage, its evade is very unreliable, even if you do use it as an evade, it seems awfully wasteful to use 4 initiative for just an evade, and finally, your condi damage won’t be high enough to support its bleed, so… what’s the point of it?

I’m quite sure power doesnt increase condition damage. If it does, we’ve been theorycrafting wrong all along then lol. Might increases condition damage though.

The trait line that increases power increases condition duration, not condition damage.

Yeah, I worded that poorly. What I meant is that even in a power focused build you’re likely to have more than baseline condition damage. Condition duration affects condition damage by a significant amount by extending the length of the bleed.

You keep acting like the damage DB does through bleeds is trivial when it simply isn’t. It’s significant even with a power build, it’s just supplemental rather than primary – intended to be used when you need to fan out AoE in melee range while remaining highly mobile. No other weapon can do that quite as well, especially considering the additional reach you get from Caltrops. The way you do it is drop caltrops, spam DB, and auto while your Ini regenerates. You have enough ini to heartseeker to finish off weakened opponents while your rather huge bleed damage is still ticking on all nearby targets, preparing them for further Heartseeking. For single target it doesn’t outDPS strict power, but it’s way more versatile, easier to sustain, and does much more substantial damage than you keep insisting. Compared to S/P, it’s just different. S/P does more damage in shorter windows, but is harder to sustain, restricts your mobility more, and requires you to have a high-power build. What melee option would you have for condition if they changed DB?

I get it – it’s not the most useful skill in a strict power build. That’s fine, and it’s by design because you already have what you need to make D/D successful as a power set. That doesn’t make it a bad skill – you get a short evade/dodge, AoE, and passive damage that applies while you do other things. Having it on D/D means:

You aren’t forced to change weapons just do deal mediocre AE damage
You aren’t shoehorned into a strict power build for D/D to be usable like with Swords You can use a non-AE set for secondary if you want and remain fairly versatile

It also happens that P/P combos well with D/D because they both arguably work best (as in all-around most functional) with hybrid setups. Going straight power with P/P like many people tend to do increases its burst, but at the expense of literally everything else.

Yeah I also paired d/d with p/p and called them “all-around most functional” when i just started to play, but in time i learned to play and realized that “all-around most functional” weapons are s/p and shortbow. o,O

Cool story bro.

Not story but facts.

It’s a short-duration evade that repositions you combined with some damage.

It’s also an on-demand, no-cooldown whirl finisher.

Oh, and it hits three times quickly, applying on-hit effects each time.

Tiresias.6473:

It’s a short-duration evade that repositions you combined with some damage.

It’s also an on-demand, no-cooldown whirl finisher.

Oh, and it hits three times quickly, applying on-hit effects each time.

It’s useless!

If you heard something it was me rolling my eyes.

With the condition build I used to run I’d use 3-4 death blossoms and some other skills to stack 20+ stacks of bleeding easily and reliably for a pretty good duration.
All that you said is true about death blossom but its base bleed duration and the thing that they are 3 bleeds and not single target makes it quite nice for stacking bleeds.

Einlanzer.1627:

Tiresias.6473:

It’s a short-duration evade that repositions you combined with some damage.

It’s also an on-demand, no-cooldown whirl finisher.

Oh, and it hits three times quickly, applying on-hit effects each time.

It’s useless!

If you heard something it was me rolling my eyes.

You can reposition yourself just as fast and more reliably by moving.
Whirl finishers are one of the most common finishers out there and is next to useless on anything but a light field in PvE.
The 3 hits sum in physical power to about the same thing as a single first-chain autoattack.

Swimsasa Stoon.8936:

With the condition build I used to run I’d use 3-4 death blossoms and some other skills to stack 20+ stacks of bleeding easily and reliably for a pretty good duration.
All that you said is true about death blossom but its base bleed duration and the thing that they are 3 bleeds and not single target makes it quite nice for stacking bleeds.

That’s the problem. It’s great for a condi build but utterly useless for a power build, and hybrid setups still isn’t a thing. So whatever you do, you’ll get useless skills on your bar.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Swimsasa Stoon.8936:

With the condition build I used to run I’d use 3-4 death blossoms and some other skills to stack 20+ stacks of bleeding easily and reliably for a pretty good duration.
All that you said is true about death blossom but its base bleed duration and the thing that they are 3 bleeds and not single target makes it quite nice for stacking bleeds.

That’s the problem. It’s great for a condi build but utterly useless for a power build, and hybrid setups still isn’t a thing. So whatever you do, you’ll get useless skills on your bar.

Ah I see, Well I’m running a hybrid celestial build right now with D/D, I use Dagger-3 sometimes but the auto-attack is better and I’d rather save my initiative for other more usefull skills while running hybrid. Like no.2 for the extra damage which you’ll need if y’r running hybrid sustain and dagger no. 5 since stealth isn’t the absolute core of my hybrid build… Dagger no. 4 is pretty useless too in my opinion.

Swimsasa Stoon.8936:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Swimsasa Stoon.8936:

With the condition build I used to run I’d use 3-4 death blossoms and some other skills to stack 20+ stacks of bleeding easily and reliably for a pretty good duration.
All that you said is true about death blossom but its base bleed duration and the thing that they are 3 bleeds and not single target makes it quite nice for stacking bleeds.

That’s the problem. It’s great for a condi build but utterly useless for a power build, and hybrid setups still isn’t a thing. So whatever you do, you’ll get useless skills on your bar.

Ah I see, Well I’m running a hybrid celestial build right now with D/D, I use Dagger-3 sometimes but the auto-attack is better and I’d rather save my initiative for other more usefull skills while running hybrid. Like no.2 for the extra damage which you’ll need if y’r running hybrid sustain and dagger no. 5 since stealth isn’t the absolute core of my hybrid build… Dagger no. 4 is pretty useless too in my opinion.

Dagger no 4 WAS very powerful when there’s exactly 2 targets (I think it had a coefficient of 1, so two people would mean you effectively full heartseeker both of them), but was nerfed to the ground a year ago with a (lol) 50% nerf that the forum that most players though ridiculous but was never changed.

3 was considered initiative waste on power d/d from day 1.

First of all, why are we talking condition builds in PvE anyway? Dungeons make them quite useless and open world pve can be done with lvl 10 blue gear and no traits.

And, well, d/d needs a buff, and changing DB to be more useful in power based builds will go a long way. The problem is that introducing some game changing skill on dagger 4 will also buff p/d and s/d both of which are currently really good anyway, so a change to #3 is the easiest way to go. Maybe a longer evade will help, as currently d/d is the only melee set without any defensive ability besides stealth. You have flanking strike on s/d, black powder on s/p and d/p and shadow strike on p/d. For such a melee centric set it seems like a longer evade could be a good idea.

Edit: Or maybe add a blind to the skill?

^ I don’t think anyone would bother using 4 ini for an evade anyways. They could just massively up the power portion of the attack so that it’s useful as an AoE.

Eh, I don’t know, I’m rather content with leaving d/d as a single target focused set. Adding AoE will be a bit much. 4 ini for an evade might be harsh, but 4 ini for 1/2 second evade + blind or evade + cripple might be useful in some cases. Or just 3 ini for a 3/4 second evade with a slight aftercast to avoid spamming(NOT like the aftercast of SB #3 please).

Personally, I’m not a fan of death blossom because of:

1. Cast and aftercast time: it takes too long to activate and the delay after using it is ridiculous.
2. Condition cap: I understand DB’s bleeds are great for condition spam, but with the condition cap, it inhibits other players if they are specced for conditions.
3. Low AoE base damage: we have bleeds to make up for it, but look at number 2. To be honest, I really liked how GW1’s DB had high AoE damage, but I guess in terms of balance, this would be too overpowered.

The whirl finisher is a good combo with smoke screen, and the bleed is underrated. But it is an overall underpowered skill that could use a buff, and probably the biggest reason D/D isn’t used very often.

While I have nothing meaningful to add to this conversation, I must applaud you guys, especially Einlanzer and Xae for keeping the discussion civil. You guys are extremely patient with each other and that is awesome. I wish more forum posts were like this.

I’ve learned a lot about hybrid D/D and why DB is a good / bad skill, along with the theories and concepts related to power vs condi builds. I want to theorycraft my own P/P viable build, but I never found anything that wasn’t cookie cutter.

Anyway, discuss on!

I’ve always liked it. Great skill.

Master Ketsu.4569:

The whirl finisher is a good combo with smoke screen, and the bleed is underrated. But it is an overall underpowered skill that could use a buff, and probably the biggest reason D/D isn’t used very often.

The bleed isn’t exactly underrated as DB spam is a thing with condi dagger builds. However, it just doesn’t fit with the rest of the skill set, and the only way to properly use condi on daggers is to just only use AA chain 3 and DB…which makes no sense.

I love it.

Used it since launch on my D/D thief and it’s one of the most fun PvE skills in the game for me, especially in solo, duo and guild play.Group up as many mobs as I can, spin over their heads while they swing aimlessly, stack bleeds/caltrops and just take off to my next task or target completely unscathed while they all lumber hopelessly after me.5-10 seconds later XP dings as they all drop while I’m on to something else.

It’s awesome and I vastly prefer it to any other style of thief play in PvE, especially anything ranged which is just a snore fest in this game, or stealth which just seems cheap to me, especially given the mob AI in this game.

Oh…hang on…I forgot about DPS calculations, power tier elitism, dungeon build dictatorship, stealth and backstab yawn, efficiency at all costs!!!, etc, etc.

Woops…crap skill.

This “has to be the most efficient build/skill or it’s garbage and needs buffing and your an idiot to use it” attitude gets so old.If it’s not meta it’s a turd?

So glad I play with people/guilds who actually…you know…roleplay….(in an MMORPG…go figure….) and allow players the freedom to roll whatever builds they find most enjoyable or more suitable to the theme of their character for whatever content we play.

No wonder people get so bored so quickly in GW2.They just copy/paste the latest meta build and burn through everything.

To each their own I guess.

^frankly, that’s how MMORPGs work, and the developers acknowledge that. That’s why balancing updates happen, and why no MMORPGS has Infamous-esque skills which turns the player into a human nuclear warhead.

Every MMORPG in existence have their meta builds and have mass numbers if players seeking optimisation, and you cannot change that.

Why? I don’t know. It just is human nature to seek perfection in a fantasy world they have some attachment to.

fireflyry.7023:

So glad I play with people/guilds who actually…you know…roleplay….(in an MMORPG…go figure….) and allow players the freedom to roll whatever builds they find most enjoyable or more suitable to the theme of their character for whatever content we play.

You can play what you want, but that was, I think, not the intended discussion topic. The play-as-you-want argument makes short work of every discussion about effectiveness of skills and – while valid in-game – is rather boring for the forum

Meta-builds exist because most peopleare afraid to fail their group.

frans.8092:

Meta-builds exist because most peopleare afraid to fail their group.

More like their group will instantly outcast, neuter, ridicule, berate, and otherwise be obscenely offensive to people who don’t run optimal crap.

Lamuness.3570:

frans.8092:

Meta-builds exist because most peopleare afraid to fail their group.

More like their group will instantly outcast, neuter, ridicule, berate, and otherwise be obscenely offensive to people who don’t run optimal crap.

Neither of those is true really. People play optimized builds because its in their nature to be better and more efficient, and the nature of MMOs promotes that. You don’t see people arguing over what build is the best way to play Skyrim.

Optimal is not ‘crap’. Optimal builds will let you run dungeons faster, that’s a fact.

Balancing exists not because the devs like to screw stuff over every few months but because optimisation is an all-important element of MMOs.

I wish dB did more direct dmg Like 3x 336 (1.0)Base dmg, evade 1/2sec, no bleeds and Single target. Still 4ini
And ofc make it toggle another skill so that you cannot evade Spam. Perhaps “Immobilise your foe for 1sec” 1ini, no dmg 450 range.

You can sugar coat it all you like. Say what YOU like using it for. However.. at the end of the day, it’s really not suited for D/D.

Death blossom as a skill is a great design, it just has a serious numbers issue. It is highly telegraphed being quite easy to avoid, and the animation (which you are stuck in) lasts longer than the evade duration which is basically a self cc.

It should either play as a hybrid set, which honestly I think p/d does better, and make it hit more reliable because the bleed stacks/duration are fine, or lower the bleed duration a lot and make it a full evade but still have it move more reliably. D/D could use all the love it can get, since only 2 skills ever have a use while being fairly easy to spot.

>>It should either play as a hybrid set, which honestly I think p/d does better, and make it hit more reliable because the bleed stacks/duration are fine, or lower the bleed duration a lot and make it a full evade but still have it move more reliably

I would not lower duration at all. I would keep the same bleed stacks the same costs and increase the evade to one half second. The time to cast would be lowered to 1/4 second.

Power stab has cleave for three targets and higher damage and would have a full second evade, DB would have the aoe and higher bleeds with a lower evade duration albeit able to use it consecutively for ini.

babazhook.6805:

>>It should either play as a hybrid set, which honestly I think p/d does better, and make it hit more reliable because the bleed stacks/duration are fine, or lower the bleed duration a lot and make it a full evade but still have it move more reliably

I would not lower duration at all. I would keep the same bleed stacks the same costs and increase the evade to one half second. The time to cast would be lowered to 1/4 second.

Power stab has cleave for three targets and higher damage and would have a full second evade, DB would have the aoe and higher bleeds with a lower evade duration albeit able to use it consecutively for ini.

The problem I got with it being some sort of a hybrid weapon is that it just contradicts with the rest of D/D skills. Look at a ‘proper’ hybrid set-up for example: warrior s/s.

You can keep applying bleed or torment, damaging conditions mixed in with direct damage because most of the skills are based around that concept.

With d/d, at least in PvE, the moment you stop spamming D/B, it becomes not hybrid. Poison isn’t a direct damage condition, its purpose is to hinder healing, not do a buttload of hurt like bleed or torment. So in other words, the way you’re supposed use d/d is to just spam DB over and over again and that’s it? That doesn’t sound right.

People in this game seem to still think they’re playing WoW and expect every skill on their bar to be useful in some dps meta button jamming puzzle. Its like people who use a knockback skill on cooldown just because it’s on their bar. You already have single-target damage. It doesn’t seem to occur to them that the evade might actually be the point. An AoE skill on a largely single-target weapon set might be the point. Kiting bleeds on a monster that would otherwise rip your face off might be the point.

>>With d/d, at least in PvE, the moment you stop spamming D/B, it becomes not hybrid. Poison isn’t a direct damage condition, its purpose is to hinder healing, not do a buttload of hurt like bleed or torment. So in other words, the way you’re supposed use d/d is to just spam DB over and over again and that’s it? That doesn’t sound right.

Again you do not understand the concept of a hybrid build and switching out weapon sets.

In a hybrid build DB is great for laying down bleeds. More stacks is more damage. Heartseeker then becomes a very valuable finisher.

The number 5 skill is used equally in condi/power. Number 4 is the only skill underutilized.

Even in a pure condi build db can be used to effect. Try a build using panic strike followed by three deathblossoms. That far deadlier then p/d sneak attack and needs no stealth. Use devourers venom on a single DB. You can get a 12 second immob in a single attack and then load the bleeds on.

You already have plenty of direct damage coming from your d/d skill set. I fail to see why people need yet another focused on the same.

D/B is also great Aoe that can affect multiple targets. Some like the shortbow for this. I prefer d/d set. I see a person downed and a thief that casts refuge to rez him , I will db into the circle. I see a thief near dead that casts his refuge, I DB into the circle. My P/d set can do little here.

I will more often then not see that thief come out of his refuge downed due to that spam.

Claiming that d/d is no longer hybrid once you stop the DB is wrong. The bleeds are still ticking. with a typical duration of 40 percent they will tick and do their damage for 14 seconds unless cleansed which is more then twice as long as that P/d set which requires continual reapplication to work. Indeed P/d relies more on spam then does d/d when it comes to conditions because DB loads on longer bleeds faster. I can actually then USE more of those other skills rather then worry about keeping bleed stacks on.

In the time a p/d set can load 10 bleeds which is rare, I can load 12 and more then switch to heartseeker to finish.

When I solo champs in PVE (much harder to do not with megaserver) using a pure condi build or hybrid, the D/D weapon set takes them down faster. Torment is the only real advantage on the p/d set. As example there that branded Gneral and his army in the Iron marches.

If I solo him with a p/d set it takes forever. I use D/D and DB and can AOE him and his minions with 16 stacks of bleeds in short order. His minions will drop on their own from the bleeds in time so I can focus just on him. The built in evades coupled with my own means I never have to use stealth wasting INI and can load the utility bar with venoms.