Guild Wars 2

shinigamith.7120:

Because thieves skill are worth initiative they have to be usefull for EVERYONE in EVERY build. I’m ok to have a not so usefull skill for my build in my hotbar if it’s worth a cooldown. I WANT a usefull skill for my build in my hotbar if it’s worth initiative.

They have to change DB…well it’s easy: you increase a little bit the dodge remove the bleed take the cripple from the #4 and you have a good utility skill. Then you can rework #4 so it cost 1 more initiative can’t bounce more than one time on each target but dispell one buff (only an exemple of what you can do).

Yes…with this solution no more bleed for D/D but you now have 5 skills in your hotbar and not 3

Except that basically destroys any and all uses of Signet of Malice outside of Shortbow and P/P (which is a power set), making it worthless. I use D/D on my apothecary build for multiple reasons.

1. DB hits 3 times, proccing SoM 3 times.
2. DB has an evasion frame, helping me dodge a few moves.
3. DB inflicts 3 stacks of bleeding, which can be very useful.
4. If I decide to load up on any venoms and use DB, I just condi-bombed you and covered the bleeding up in a matter of seconds (while this can also work on P/P’s Unload, it doesn’t come out nowhere near as fast nor as potent).
5. I can use CnD to quickly stealth and heal or escape if need be.
6. I have access to Heartseeker, which can help close a gap fast.

DB is useful on the D/D set because it makes it a Jack of All Trades setup. The weapon set itself is a mish mash of multiple types of moves, if you hadn’t noticed. The auto-attack chain is fast DPS and ends with a poison, the stealth attack is a burst move, Heartseeker closes the gap on the enemy along with being a leap finisher for support, Death Blossom is a quick burst of bleeding, Dancing Dagger can cripple multiple enemies (needs some improvements though), and Cloak and Dagger can stealth you and hits the enemy hard.

Just changing Death Blossom’s bleeding alone completely messes up the mojo of the weapon set, and makes it far less attractive than it already is for condition and tanky builds.

>>Yes…with this solution no more bleed for D/D but you now have 5 skills in your hotbar and not 3

Terrible solution. It takes away our most powerful AOE attack and one of only THREE sources of bleeds we have on total weapon sets.

This forces any condi build into one weapon set and ONE real source of bleeds , that the AA on P/d.

The very definition of a spam skill.

Power builds already have plenty of choices in their weapons. Condi builds do not and you are proposing limiting the Condi build more in favor of Power. Every single attack on every weapon set to some degree does direct damage and only 3 can inflict a bleed and you want that removed so your power set can do more.

Every single weapon set out there works fine in a power build. The power builds already have options.

That is hardly equitable.

I do not see how that adds to the game.

The only time I could remotely support such a notion is if an entirely new MELEE weapon introduced that focused on condition damage.

People supporting removing bleeds from DB do so under the flase claim they simply MADE UP that the DD set was meant for direct damage.

If that the case the designers would not have put bleeds on DB. They would not have put the most powerful single source of bleeds on DB. It was not an “oversight”. It was intended to be a source of bleeds for which it works very well.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Except that basically destroys any and all uses of Signet of Malice outside of Shortbow and P/P (which is a power set), making it worthless. I use D/D on my apothecary build for multiple reasons.

False: Sword/pistol use it, i personally use it a lot in pve it’s very powerfull with cluster bomb or even with D/D Auto.

babazhook.6805:

If that the case the designers would not have put bleeds on DB. They would not have put the most powerful single source of bleeds on DB. It was not an “oversight”. It was intended to be a source of bleeds for which it works very well.

There is what they designed and what the player found. Their main mistake is to not having reworked the thing at the very beginning.

borgs.6103:

I really wish they do this. This is really good. Have you proposed this in the balance forums?

No it just came out when i made the post.

babazhook.6805:

The only time I could remotely support such a notion is if an entirely new MELEE weapon introduced that focused on condition damage.

100% with it. Everyone would be happy end of the story… They could rework P/P (useless) too…

>>There is what they designed and what the player found. Their main mistake is to not having reworked the thing at the very beginning.

This makes no sense . I am not sure what you are saying.

Claim made: D/D was intended as a damage set. DB is out of place.

Fact: This is false. D/d was intended as a source of damage and of bleeds, very much a hybrid. The bleed was not an “oversight”.

Evidence: D/b is the single most potent source of bleeds for the thief and inflicts AOE bleeds by design. In a single weapon attack wherein no weapon in off hand the skill twisting fangs has bleeds and is also AOE.

I’m gonna repeat myself but:

We are using initiative. So, every skill in our hotbar have to be usefull for every build that can use this set.

Actually this set is more oriented toward power build than condition build (you have only 1 condition skill…NO #1 is not a condition skill you have to make 3 attack before the poison is applied and anyway poison is not a killing condition it just reduces healing) so i think it’s normal for arena net to rework DB for a power build.

When 90% of the skills you use in an ENTIRE set is one skill there is a design problem and it should be fixed.

babazhook.6805:

Claim made: D/D was intended as a damage set. DB is out of place.

Claim made: D/D was intended as an hybrid set but players played it as a power set for now two years.

I think there is a reason and it’s not meta but the simple fact that there are obviously some problems with the condition D/D set.

babazhook.6805:

Fact: This is false. D/d was intended as a source of damage and of bleeds, very much a hybrid. The bleed was not an “oversight”.

Fact: The bleed was not but is an oversight in this set

babazhook.6805:

Evidence: D/b is the single most potent source of bleeds for the thief and inflicts AOE bleeds by design. In a single weapon attack wherein no weapon in off hand the skill twisting fangs has bleeds and is also AOE

Evidence: Anet should have reworked it to fit the players preferences and added another source of bleed in another set of weapon (Why not in Pistol/Pistol ? the set actually have a poor #3)

shinigamith.7120:

Evidence: Anet should have reworked it to fit the players preferences and added another source of bleed in another set of weapon (Why not in Pistol/Pistol ? the set actually have a poor #3)

I think this is the source of the problem. the players may have one idea of what things should be but if it doesn’t line up with a-nets intentions then the players are wrong. Not the skill. Otherwise, they’d also have to give into player desire to play a hard trinity.

The skill is only wrong if it doesn’t line up with a-nets intentions. Since their intentions are clearly not to make the daggers a pure power set then it is working as intended.

I invite you to watch the episode 15 of ready up on the guild wars 2 official twitch channel where they talk about reacting to what the player do with what they designed.

If you design something but absolutely nobody uses it (why nobody play hybrid D/D? => too weak) you can be very happy with what you have done but it’s not a good design.

Players react with what developpers design the players are not wrong if they use D/D with a power build because they find hybrid build too weak. They do it because it is simply better.

Finally you can’t compare the will to change D/D build with the one to have a hard trinity.

In one case you want to change a Global gameplay design that is a big part of gw2 identity.
In the other case you want to change a particular part of a particular profession set that have nothing to do with gw2 identity.

>>If you design something but absolutely nobody uses it (why nobody play hybrid D/D? => too weak) you can be very happy with what you have done but it’s not a good design.

I use it all the time.

Hyperbole does not make your case anymore then someone posting over and over again that thieves OP or can perma stealth and need nerfs make your case.

It is the best source of bleeds and the deadliest source of AOE damage in the thieves toolkit..

It is NOT MATERIAL that you do not use it nor is it material that the current Meta does not use it. All that is material is does the skill work. As I have pointed it over and over again it does . All it needs is a longer evade frame.

There was a time p/d was not the meta. That hardly meant P/d was useless.

Game design should not be based upon what the META is or what is most popular with a subset of players. This destroys choice and variety.

I am not going to play a game where there only ONE WAY to play my character that way being what YOU and others claim the “most popular”.

D/d being called weak as a hybrid is not an informed comment. It is very powerful as a hybrid.

We have thing like traps and venom share in the game. Not many use them > They would rather take stealth and sources of evades and more power and damage.

The fix to this is not “Lets remove the concept of traps and venomss. No one uses them > They all like condition remove stealth and dodges. Lets give more of that”

>>Evidence: Anet should have reworked it to fit the players preferences and added another source of bleed in another set of weapon (Why not in Pistol/Pistol ? the set actually have a poor #3)

There should be more reasons to use d/d in a condition set not fewer. It is sterile game design to dictate the type of build by a chosen weapon set.

P/d works in power builds. P/P works in power builds/ S/d works in power builds> D/dd works in power builds. S/p works in power builds. D/p works in power builds.

That means as a power user I can take any of this weapon sets and do well, some better then others.

Your solution is to further restrict a condition build to one or two sets > That is poor game design.

When a person sees a thief coming at them with ANY weapon set, they should not be able to tell it condition/hybrid or power just because of that weaponset choice.

THAT is good game design.

shinigamith.7120:

I invite you to watch the episode 15 of ready up on the guild wars 2 official twitch channel where they talk about reacting to what the player do with what they designed.

If you design something but absolutely nobody uses it (why nobody play hybrid D/D too weak) you can be very happy with what you have done but it’s not a good design.

Players react with what developpers design the players are not wrong if they use D/D with a power build because they find hybrid build too weak. They do it because it is simply better.

Finally you can’t compare the will to change D/D build with the one to have a hard trinity.

In one case you want to change a Global gameplay design that is a big part of gw2 identity.
In the other case you want to change a particular part of a particular profession set that have nothing to do with gw2 identity.

If I can make a point that you don’t agree with by using your logic then the point isn’t flawed. The logic is flawed. I don’t agree with making the trinity either but the point is that your logic does agree with it.

Notice my logic based on a-nets intentions is a consistent argument with consistant logic that is applicable across the board. letting players make the rules in spite of a-nets intentions is allowing players to recreate a game against what the creators want it to be.

So while palyers are absolutely not wrong if they choose to use it in a power build, they are wrong for saying that it is somhow useless simply because they don’t use it a particular way. Changeing a particular part of a particular profession set that have nothing to do with gw2 identity isn’t changing the identity of the game but it is changing the identity of that particular weapon set. An identity that the devs specifically want to be a certain way that happens to not line up with what some players may want. That certain way seems to be that they want more options. Not less. Options to work in a power build and a hybrid build.

babazhook.6805:

P/d works in power builds. P/P works in power builds/ S/d works in power builds> D/dd works in power builds. S/p works in power builds. D/p works in power builds.

If by working you mean “i can kill something in pve” yeah every build work. Now come and try to kill a player with the same level with P/D power build we are gonna laugh…
Yes i prefer to talk about PvP simply because PvE is easy and don’t need anything particular to work if you don’t take it to a very high lvl (like soloing arah which is not possible with many builds anyway)

babazhook.6805:

When a person sees a thief coming at them with ANY weapon set, they should not be able to tell it condition/hybrid or power just because of that weaponset choice.
THAT is good game design.

Yeah and at the moment i can tell you what build play a thief only by looking his weapons. Actually we are not in a good design if i follow what you said.
Things have to change but to achieve a good design you have to break things before building

babazhook.6805:

Your solution is to further restrict a condition build to one or two sets > That is poor game design.

My solution is to change things and as i said before you have to break things in order to improve them..we have only 2 melee weapons and 2 ranged so yeah actually if you change something you restrict a build the poor game design is already here.

Dustfinger.9510:

letting players make the rules in spite of a-nets intentions is allowing players to recreate a game against what the creators want it to be.

They wanted D/D to be hybrid but didn’t improved it to make it attractive. You can say hybrid D/D was their intention but you can’t say that it’s their intention now.

Dustfinger.9510:

Changeing a particular part of a particular profession set that have nothing to do with gw2 identity isn’t changing the identity of the game but it is changing the identity of that particular weapon set. An identity that the devs specifically want to be a certain way that happens to not line up with what some players may want. That certain way seems to be that they want more options. Not less. Options to work in a power build and a hybrid build

If you want to preserve an identity you have to protect it and as i said make it attractive.

Yeah they designed D/D to be hybrid. On release day it was good as hybrid and over powered as a power build (since you could one shot and no match everything)

Did they changed the things to make it more attractive for hybrid and less for full power? No.

It took a tremendous time for them to nerf the full power build and when it was done the hybrid one, even if it was good wasn’t efficient enough.

They didn’t improved hybrid D/D they just nerfed power D/D.

I’m ok with Anet following their original design but only if they do something to make it attractive. If they don’t they have to break it.

Dustfinger.9510:

We have thing like traps and venom share in the game. Not many use them > They would rather take stealth and sources of evades and more power and damage.

But you can choose to use another utility skill if you don’t like them. You can’t choose to have another #3.

Game design should preserve diversity =>The actual one create a meta (meta is nothing more than the sign of problem in balance).
As they don’t try to protect diversity they could at least give some stability to the system and then improve it. Breaking DB is only a step it’s not a end they totally have to give us another finished set to play condition because actually D/D is not a complete one.

>>f by working you mean “i can kill something in pve” yeah every build work. Now come and try to kill a player with the same level with P/D power build we are gonna laugh…

That you are going to “laugh” does not demonstrate anything but arrogance. Game design should not be based around what popular with the “in crowd” I have killed lots of people in wvw. One does not base sound game design around what one subsegment of the population things is cool or the meta.

>>Yes i prefer to talk about PvP simply because PvE is easy and don’t need anything particular to work if you don’t take it to a very high lvl (like soloing arah which is not possible with many builds anyway)

It works fine in both Pve and in Wvw > I do not care about Pvp. Thieves do not use much stealth in PvP. that does not mean it should be removed and is useless.

>>But you can choose to use another utility skill if you don’t like them. You can’t choose to have another #3.

You have other weapon sets. You have the same choice. If you are so set on using number 3 go to a p/p set. Go to an s/d. Go to a s/p set. Turn the argument around. You do not get to use #3 in a power build and you want it so the ENTIRE weapon set can not be used in a condition build. That is absurd!

Again I do not care about the meta. I do not care about the crowd. Just because a specific build becomes popular it does not mean everyone MUST follow the crowd.

Case in point.

They LOWERED the power of crit damage.

They removed INI regen from the critical trait line and gave a higher base value regen.

At the time a whole lot of people were laughing at any build that was not the meta as well.

They did not do this because “not enough backstabbers existed” or “because there were not enough power builds or because there were not enough people training the critical traits line” All of those were the meta and what people were training in. They made other options more attractive.

It the same thing. If every thief feels they MUST use P/d in a condition build it bad design.

If every thief feels only power users should use d/d it bad design.

There are three sources of bleeds to a condition user and you want the best one removed due to the meta and because “we are gonna laugh” at any who try and build outside that meta?

Bad reasoning. Pigeonhole game design.

D/d should have MORE reasons to use in a condi build. Not less. Through all the weapon sets the number of skills not used in a condition build is MUCH greater then those used in a power build yet you somehow reason that because all in the dd line cant be used for power it should be converted to do so.

The funny part is that you focused on the “removing DB” part and ignored every other agument like when i said removing db is not an end and we should give condition a compensation.

You can’t say D/D condition is ok. Not with only 1 skill to use in your hotbar. You can’t defend this!
I can understand why you are defending DB (here we have different point of view but we both have argument for us) but i can’t understand why you are defending the actual D/D condition build even in the name of diversity. There is no point in having a build with only 1 skill if it’s for diversity, just to say “hey we have D/D condition too! We have lot of shiny stuff to do!!!”

Anyway i think the point is made you didn’t convinced me and i didn’t convinced you but atleast our point of view have been exposed. It’s up to Anet now to change the things in a way that make everyone happy!

Dustfinger.9510:

shinigamith.7120:

Evidence: Anet should have reworked it to fit the players preferences and added another source of bleed in another set of weapon (Why not in Pistol/Pistol ? the set actually have a poor #3)

I think this is the source of the problem. the players may have one idea of what things should be but if it doesn’t line up with a-nets intentions then the players are wrong. Not the skill. Otherwise, they’d also have to give into player desire to play a hard trinity.

The skill is only wrong if it doesn’t line up with a-nets intentions. Since their intentions are clearly not to make the daggers a pure power set then it is working as intended.

The Ranger’s greatsword was clearly intended by ANet to be a condition set, because the #2 applied Bleeding.

…Oh wait.

shinigamith.7120:

They wanted D/D to be hybrid but didn’t improved it to make it attractive. You can say hybrid D/D was their intention but you can’t say that it’s their intention now.

The term more attractive is a relative one. Right now it is attractive enough to be in use. There is really no evidence that it is contrary to their intentions.

Dustfinger.9510:

If you want to preserve an identity you have to protect it and as i said make it attractive.

This states that the fact that #3 is a condition applier means that the identity is not meant to be a pure power set.

Yeah they designed D/D to be hybrid. On release day it was good as hybrid and over powered as a power build (since you could one shot and no match everything)

Did they changed the things to make it more attractive for hybrid and less for full power? No.

It took a tremendous time for them to nerf the full power build and when it was done the hybrid one, even if it was good wasn’t efficient enough.

They didn’t improved hybrid D/D they just nerfed power D/D.

I’m ok with Anet following their original design but only if they do something to make it attractive. If they don’t they have to break it.

Again, more and less is relative. There is never perfect balance in any game between multiple classes and builds. This means that there will always be something that is more attractive than something else.

Game design should preserve diversity. The actual one create a meta (meta is nothing more than the sign of problem in balance).
As they don’t try to protect diversity they could at least give some stability to the system and then improve it. Breaking DB is only a step it’s not a end they totally have to give us another finished set to play condition because actually D/D is not a complete one.

if they followed your rules, the power build would never have been viable to begin with because they would have made sure that only hybrid build was ever attractive. As you said, the hybrid build was definitely their intention. That would have taken priority according to your philosophy.

Grimwolf.7163:

Dustfinger.9510:

shinigamith.7120:

Evidence: Anet should have reworked it to fit the players preferences and added another source of bleed in another set of weapon (Why not in Pistol/Pistol ? the set actually have a poor #3)

I think this is the source of the problem. the players may have one idea of what things should be but if it doesn’t line up with a-nets intentions then the players are wrong. Not the skill. Otherwise, they’d also have to give into player desire to play a hard trinity.

The skill is only wrong if it doesn’t line up with a-nets intentions. Since their intentions are clearly not to make the daggers a pure power set then it is working as intended.

The Ranger’s greatsword was clearly intended by ANet to be a condition set, because the #2 applied Bleeding.

…Oh wait.

Your response doesn’t actually address what I typed. So……… yeah.
Your response implies that I said there can never be a hybrid build with any class ever.

There is BACKWARDS synergy between DB and Caltrops. It’s called condition removal.
Of course, you’ll bring a ton of conditions to make it harder, namely confusion, poison, bleeding, weakness, cripple, sometimes immobilize and blind, maybe torment… But bleeding somehow always gets removed first even despite that..
Of course, unless bleeding gets removed, then your damage is comparable to the power build like S/P… But it’s really likely it’ll get removed, you know.
As for animations, dodging Pistol Whip is also harder than dodging Death Blossom, at least for me. Death Blossom is much more obvious, does not stun, and has near to no synergy with shadowstep comboing.
In full Condition Build, Death Blossom would do around 170 damage/second/stack(~2600 condi damage) and apply a total of 1 minute worth of bleeding(3 stacksx20sec). That’s 10.200 worth of damage from a single Death Blossom. The damage output of that(Please Note that it’s Dire! main stat condi damage and nothing else to be cared about! So it’s also tanky!) is somewhat comparable to berserker, I guess.
Single Caltrops usage would apply 6 seconds of 2 stacks bleeding once per second over the course of 10 seconds, totalling 120 seconds of bleeding(20 stacks x 6 seconds) or 20,400 damage from caltrops.
And that’s how Dire does it’s damage. Full berserker will still do more, but full Soldier(same level of defense) will do less.

Dustfinger.9510:

Grimwolf.7163:

Dustfinger.9510:

shinigamith.7120:

Evidence: Anet should have reworked it to fit the players preferences and added another source of bleed in another set of weapon (Why not in Pistol/Pistol ? the set actually have a poor #3)

I think this is the source of the problem. the players may have one idea of what things should be but if it doesn’t line up with a-nets intentions then the players are wrong. Not the skill. Otherwise, they’d also have to give into player desire to play a hard trinity.

The skill is only wrong if it doesn’t line up with a-nets intentions. Since their intentions are clearly not to make the daggers a pure power set then it is working as intended.

The Ranger’s greatsword was clearly intended by ANet to be a condition set, because the #2 applied Bleeding.

…Oh wait.

Your response doesn’t actually address what I typed. So……… yeah.
Your response implies that I said there can never be a hybrid build with any class ever.

No, my response implies that Ranger Greatsword was originally in exactly the same place D/D is with a single attack stacking Bleeds, and a while back they fixed it to apply Vulnerability instead.
Therefore, one stupid attack applying Bleeding does not mean they intended for the set to leverage Condition Damage or be any sort of hybrid; it means they’re just idiots.

>>Therefore, one stupid attack applying Bleeding does not mean they intended for the set to leverage Condition Damage or be any sort of hybrid; it means they’re just idiots.

The difference is that one “stupid attack” applying bleeding went on cool down. You can never get enough bleeds if the only source of bleeds a skill on cool down sufficient enough to make it a condition weapon.

The difference is DB can easily stack 40+ total stacks of bleeds for the cost of 12 INI. (dependent on enemies in the area)

That is a significant difference.

Nothing stacks bleeds as fast on any weaponset.

>>And what if i say gameplay with power D/D is totally different than with other build? yeah again bad argument.

So what? Gameplay is totally different with d/d in a condition build. So?

>>Thieves do not use much stealth in PvP. that does not mean it should be removed and is useless.

>>That’s not an argument and this kind of thing is exactly why actually the debate is struggling.

it the VERY argument you are making. You are stating because few people use DB in a given game mode in a condition build it should be removed.

>>You can’t say D/D condition is ok. Not with only 1 skill to use in your hotbar. You can’t defend this!

You obviously do no use it so you can not comment on it. Several of us have already stated that other skills used.

4 and 5 are no different then the power dagger dagger build with 4 being more effective in a condition build (because they tend to have higher durations) for the crippling which is more effective then the damage one gets in a power build for ini spent.

Cnd is used in both builds albeit more frequently in power. That said you again seem to miss the fact we have TWO weapon sets not one and what you have in the second can make that first weapon set more effective.

If you synergize an alternate weapon set like p/d with d/d in a pure condition build, then the effectiveness of d/d in a condition build goes UP.

DB is used in condition more power.

Autoattacks are used in both builds.

A hybrid build will use ALL 5. If you want to rate which is most favorable it would be Hybrid 4.5 Power 3.5 Condi 3 for usage of the 5 skills.

>>Of course, unless bleeding gets removed, then your damage is comparable to the power build like S/P… But it’s really likely it’ll get removed, you know.

Well if bleeds could be cleansed as fast as they are applied then the P/d condition build would never work. What of course happens is they get applied over and over> This suggests that the faster one can get bleeds on and the more stacks one can get on for a given period of time, the more efficient and deadlier the build.

This favors DB. Yes there the INI concern but INI is used to launch sneak attack as well and can be managed by switching weapons as needed.

It my experience people do not dodge DB. Indeed it rather easy to set the enemy up using a p/d set first. IE you stealth and shoot at them. They tend to block or dodge that burst and THEN you db them. You save your best bleeds for when they have used blocks and dodges on your secondary ones. While p/d can be the slow and steady, you are in fact maximizing damage from bleeds with a db spike once you see him use cleanses or blocks. By the time his next cleanse ready he has take far more damage from the longer lasting and greater bleed stacks of DB.

If there a 10 second window between cleanses the slow and steady p/d is simply not going to maximize the bleed potential that a couple of DBS can do in that window.

Two sources of bleeds is better then one. In essence one source of bleeds covers the other. (the ini regen boost of late last year helps tremendously here)

Add to that most are arguing from the perspective of 1v1 battles. The game is not about 1v1. The ability to dodge/block something like a DB is harder in a battle with several a side. It is easier to block/evade a person you engaged with (ie one using Pistol whip or Hundred blades) because that tends to be the person standing in front of you and that you are focused on.

Ie p/p powerset gets far more KILLS when fighting in groups then in 1 v 1. This simply because the thief sneaks around, looks for a target focused elsewhere and unloads. By time the target clues in he has been spiked for massive damage. 1 v 1 this far less practical.

Grimwolf.7163:

Dustfinger.9510:

Grimwolf.7163:

Dustfinger.9510:

shinigamith.7120:

Evidence: Anet should have reworked it to fit the players preferences and added another source of bleed in another set of weapon (Why not in Pistol/Pistol ? the set actually have a poor #3)

I think this is the source of the problem. the players may have one idea of what things should be but if it doesn’t line up with a-nets intentions then the players are wrong. Not the skill. Otherwise, they’d also have to give into player desire to play a hard trinity.

The skill is only wrong if it doesn’t line up with a-nets intentions. Since their intentions are clearly not to make the daggers a pure power set then it is working as intended.

The Ranger’s greatsword was clearly intended by ANet to be a condition set, because the #2 applied Bleeding.

…Oh wait.

Your response doesn’t actually address what I typed. So……… yeah.
Your response implies that I said there can never be a hybrid build with any class ever.

No, my response implies that Ranger Greatsword was originally in exactly the same place D/D is with a single attack stacking Bleeds, and a while back they fixed it to apply Vulnerability instead.
Therefore, one stupid attack applying Bleeding does not mean they intended for the set to leverage Condition Damage or be any sort of hybrid; it means they’re just idiots.

That still doesn’t address what I actually typed. Your further extrapolation only makes less sense when pairing it with my post since at no time did I ever say the daggers were intended to be a condition set. GG.

Grimwolf.7163:

Dustfinger.9510:

Grimwolf.7163:

Dustfinger.9510:

shinigamith.7120:

Evidence: Anet should have reworked it to fit the players preferences and added another source of bleed in another set of weapon (Why not in Pistol/Pistol ? the set actually have a poor #3)

I think this is the source of the problem. the players may have one idea of what things should be but if it doesn’t line up with a-nets intentions then the players are wrong. Not the skill. Otherwise, they’d also have to give into player desire to play a hard trinity.

The skill is only wrong if it doesn’t line up with a-nets intentions. Since their intentions are clearly not to make the daggers a pure power set then it is working as intended.

The Ranger’s greatsword was clearly intended by ANet to be a condition set, because the #2 applied Bleeding.

…Oh wait.

Your response doesn’t actually address what I typed. So……… yeah.
Your response implies that I said there can never be a hybrid build with any class ever.

No, my response implies that Ranger Greatsword was originally in exactly the same place D/D is with a single attack stacking Bleeds, and a while back they fixed it to apply Vulnerability instead.
Therefore, one stupid attack applying Bleeding does not mean they intended for the set to leverage Condition Damage or be any sort of hybrid; it means they’re just idiots.

No, it means they intended for the set to be functional with a variety of builds, which is much better game design than having your weapon set pigeonhole you into one specific build by being useless with any other build. They, in fact, did this with most weapon sets across professions.

It would be especially problematic for the Thief due to the low selection of weapons they have. If D/D was a strict power set with no condition application, Thieves would not have a condition friendly melee weapon at all and Thieves running mixed or condition builds would be forced to be ranged all the time.

>>If D/D was a strict power set with no condition application, Thieves would not have a condition friendly melee weapon at all and Thieves running mixed or condition builds would be forced to be ranged all the time.

Precisely. We have some who suggested it immaterial what a person prefers in a given build and all that is important is optimizing ones build towards the meta.

This is simply wrong and would destroy the game.

Some apparently laugh at builds that are not the meta. I applaud those builds. I want to see people trying different builds and different skill sets. I want to both see and experience a wider build variety.

That is what will add long term interest to the game.

Catering to that group that is concerned only with maximizing damage potential from their chosen weapon set while demanding skills be changed so as to favor that meta is not my idea of “play your own way”.

In addition to db as a superior applicator of bleeds, I find the d/d weapon set style more fun. It a better fit for how I wanted to play my thief. I see it as akin to that fight in one of the fights in the Game of Thrones series where the lightly armored warrior defeats the heavy armored knight by dashing in and out and wearing the other down.

MY D/d better suits the vision of a guy that dashes in, slices and dices and dodges out inflicting wounds that build over time. Float like a butterfly sting like a bee!

Einlanzer.1627:

No, it means they intended for the set to be functional with a variety of builds, which is much better game design than having your weapon set pigeonhole you into one specific build by being useless with any other build. They, in fact, did this with most weapon sets across professions.

It would be especially problematic for the Thief due to the low selection of weapons they have. If D/D was a strict power set with no condition application, Thieves would not have a condition friendly melee weapon at all and Thieves running mixed or condition builds would be forced to be ranged all the time.

While you make a good point on the need for flexible weapons, both Sword sets are strictly power sets. P/P and Sb are as well, even though they offer scraps of bleeding. P/D is the only hybrid set and it is biased towards condition damage.

A hybrid P/D main might find use in D/D as secondary set for deathblossom and have a backstab with punch, but if I were not running shortbow as secondary to P/D I’d probably prefer to dual it with some nice on-swap sigils.

frans.8092:

Einlanzer.1627:

No, it means they intended for the set to be functional with a variety of builds, which is much better game design than having your weapon set pigeonhole you into one specific build by being useless with any other build. They, in fact, did this with most weapon sets across professions.

It would be especially problematic for the Thief due to the low selection of weapons they have. If D/D was a strict power set with no condition application, Thieves would not have a condition friendly melee weapon at all and Thieves running mixed or condition builds would be forced to be ranged all the time.

While you make a good point on the need for flexible weapons, both Sword sets are strictly power sets. P/P and Sb are as well, even though they offer scraps of bleeding. P/D is the only hybrid set and it is biased towards condition damage.

A hybrid P/D main might find use in D/D as secondary set for deathblossom and have a backstab with punch, but if I were not running shortbow as secondary to P/D I’d probably prefer to dual it with some nice on-swap sigils.

The reason for that is that condition damage was always intended to be supplemental. This is why there are a handful of power only sets and no condition only sets, but most weapons have both built into them in various ways.

P/P is not a strict power set, and neither is SB. The former is a hybrid set that is poorly tuned and consequently arguably works better as a power set (this is debatable – in many ways P/P is more functional with hybrid builds). The latter is quite decent with conditions but can be played functionally with a variety of builds, which is I’m sure what’s intended.

It is very significant to note that, in terms of gear, conditions are only tied to one stat while physical damage is tied to three. The other thing is that people tend to not want to think outside the box in terms of gearing sigils and runes. I already made the point that MH Dagger has one of the fastest (if not the fastest) hitting autoattacks in the game and is therefore a great proc weapon – try Sigil of Earth.

In short, running D/D with bleed procs gives me much better bleed application than either Pistol or Shortbow do while giving the set AoE ability that it would be lacking otherwise, so the people arguing that Death Blossom is weak or useless are just objectively wrong.

>>I already made the point that MH Dagger has one of the fastest (if not the fastest) hitting autoattacks in the game and is therefore a great proc weapon – try Sigil of Earth.

Keep in mind that these proc sigils also apply to d/b which has multiple attacks in that d/d set which is why is so effective using SOM builds.

That sigil of earth is all but sure to proc on a d/b.

>>I already made the point that MH Dagger has one of the fastest (if not the fastest) hitting autoattacks in the game and is therefore a great proc weapon – try Sigil of Earth.

Keep in mind that these proc sigils also apply to d/b which has multiple attacks in that d/d set which is why is so effective using SOM builds.

That sigil of earth is all but sure to proc on a d/b.

Have you tried using two proc sigils on the dagger dagger set such as earth AND torment? The torment has a longer cooldown but it is AOE meaning it need only trigger once in a DB to inflict an AOE torment on enemies.

Einlanzer.1627:

P/P is not a strict power set, and neither is SB. The former is a hybrid set that is poorly tuned and consequently arguably works better as a power set (this is debatable – in many ways P/P is more functional with hybrid builds). The latter is quite decent with conditions but can be played functionally with a variety of builds, which is I’m sure what’s intended.

There is nothing to debate, the only damaging conditions P/P has is on it’s autoattack and it’s so weak that any investment to improve it will cost much, much more elsewhere. There is no where to go with P/P then Power.

It is very significant to note that, in terms of gear, conditions are only tied to one stat while physical damage is tied to three.

Which would be a reason to not ‘weaken’ a power/crit build with (attribute) investments in condition damage, which tends to make power builds and weaponsets tend exclusive.

The other thing is that people tend to not want to think outside the box in terms of gearing sigils and runes. I already made the point that MH Dagger has one of the fastest (if not the fastest) hitting autoattacks in the game and is therefore a great proc weapon – try Sigil of Earth.

In short, running D/D with bleed procs gives me much better bleed application than either Pistol or Shortbow do while giving the set AoE ability that it would be lacking otherwise, so the people arguing that Death Blossom is weak or useless are just objectively wrong.

Really? That is strange. Sigil of Earth has a 60% chance to proc a 5 second bleed on a critical, with a 2 second cooldown. Assuming dagger auto hits twice per second, and you have an 80% crit chance your chance to proc is about 0,8 * 0,6 = 0,48 and you’d proc the sigil about once every 3 seconds on average, so you’d keep 5/3 = 1,7 bleed stacks going.
Vital shot applies a 4 second bleed every 0,9 seconds, so it can keep 4/0,9 = 4,4 bleed stacks going.

I don’t quite see how your Daggers of Earth could apply more bleeding then a P/x’s Vital Shot.

its a single condition skill in a power weapon set, sure it’d be great if it was the p/d dual skill, but not as the d/d skill.

frans.8092:

Einlanzer.1627:

P/P is not a strict power set, and neither is SB. The former is a hybrid set that is poorly tuned and consequently arguably works better as a power set (this is debatable – in many ways P/P is more functional with hybrid builds). The latter is quite decent with conditions but can be played functionally with a variety of builds, which is I’m sure what’s intended.

There is nothing to debate, the only damaging conditions P/P has is on it’s autoattack and it’s so weak that any investment to improve it will cost much, much more elsewhere. There is no where to go with P/P then Power.

It is very significant to note that, in terms of gear, conditions are only tied to one stat while physical damage is tied to three.

Which would be a reason to not ‘weaken’ a power/crit build with (attribute) investments in condition damage, which tends to make power builds and weaponsets tend exclusive.

The other thing is that people tend to not want to think outside the box in terms of gearing sigils and runes. I already made the point that MH Dagger has one of the fastest (if not the fastest) hitting autoattacks in the game and is therefore a great proc weapon – try Sigil of Earth.

In short, running D/D with bleed procs gives me much better bleed application than either Pistol or Shortbow do while giving the set AoE ability that it would be lacking otherwise, so the people arguing that Death Blossom is weak or useless are just objectively wrong.

Really? That is strange. Sigil of Earth has a 60% chance to proc a 5 second bleed on a critical, with a 2 second cooldown. Assuming dagger auto hits twice per second, and you have an 80% crit chance your chance to proc is about 0,8 * 0,6 = 0,48 and you’d proc the sigil about once every 3 seconds on average, so you’d keep 5/3 = 1,7 bleed stacks going.
Vital shot applies a 4 second bleed every 0,9 seconds, so it can keep 4/0,9 = 4,4 bleed stacks going.

I don’t quite see how your Daggers of Earth could apply more bleeding then a P/x’s Vital Shot.

Vital Shot is weak, but improving it also gives you more of an ability to be functional without spamming Unload, which improves access to the set’s utility and makes it a little more functional overall, including better sustained output, by sacrificing some burst potential. It isn’t really as black and white as you assert. It especially isn’t with SB, which benefits immensely from condition damage.

I never said D/D’s autoattack could apply more bleeds than Vital Shot, as it obviously wouldn’t. It doesn’t need to because it’s merely supplementing DB, and bleeds would also have a high chance of proccing when using it or any other D/D skill.

There’s not even a comparison. Vital Shot is poorly tuned and can only manage to maintain 5-6 stacks of bleed on a single target assuming no condi duration buffs. Furthermore, those stacks are only maintained as long as you are ‘spamming’ Vital Shot, meaning that you won’t be doing much physical damage while those 4-5 stacks are ticking. As soon as you start doing anything else those bleeds will quickly fall off.

DB at baseline can easily apply 9-12 stacks to multiple enemies right off the bat that then last the entire fight while you’re destroying targets with much higher physical damage than P/D could ever pull off. It actually makes P/D look really bad in comparison, which it deserves to because Vital Shot is very obviously underpowered.

Liewec.2896:

its a single condition skill in a power weapon set, sure it’d be great if it was the p/d dual skill, but not as the d/d skill.

It’s not a power-only set, nor should it be. It’s designed to be a flexible set like many other weapons across all professions. You people and your false dichotomies really amuse me.

Einlanzer.1627:

Liewec.2896:

its a single condition skill in a power weapon set, sure it’d be great if it was the p/d dual skill, but not as the d/d skill.

It’s not a power-only set, nor should it be. It’s designed to be a flexible set like many other weapons across all professions. You people and your inability to not think in false dichotomies really amuse me.

And your ability to ignore facts or logic and spin everything in your favor really annoys me.

Grimwolf.7163:

Einlanzer.1627:

Liewec.2896:

its a single condition skill in a power weapon set, sure it’d be great if it was the p/d dual skill, but not as the d/d skill.

It’s not a power-only set, nor should it be. It’s designed to be a flexible set like many other weapons across all professions. You people and your inability to not think in false dichotomies really amuse me.

And your ability to ignore facts or logic and spin everything in your favor really annoys me.

Yeah, I get annoyed when someone proves me wrong, too. It’s okay.

Einlanzer.1627:

Grimwolf.7163:

Einlanzer.1627:

Liewec.2896:

its a single condition skill in a power weapon set, sure it’d be great if it was the p/d dual skill, but not as the d/d skill.

It’s not a power-only set, nor should it be. It’s designed to be a flexible set like many other weapons across all professions. You people and your inability to not think in false dichotomies really amuse me.

And your ability to ignore facts or logic and spin everything in your favor really annoys me.

Yeah, I get annoyed when someone proves me wrong, too. It’s okay.

You realize that statement is EXACTLY the kinda crap I was just talking about in that quote?
You can’t argue by ignoring reality and pretending everything works how you want it to.

Yeah, I get it. I’m right and that’s annoying you. I have the exact same reaction when I’m on the other side of the fence.

Being a bigger person, though, means acknowledging when someone else eviscerates your silly meta-obsessed conformist argument that a 4 ini skill in an otherwise single target set that lays down multiple AoE bleed stacks that last for 10+ seconds while you obliterate mobs with high physical damage skills is somehow ‘useless’ OR that it’s for some reason a good idea to remove it when thieves have no other condition friendly melee weapons.

edit: I’m not the one who made the original claim. The burden of proof is on him, not on me. So far nobody has satisfactorily demonstrated to me or to several other people who have no problem with the skill how exactly it’s useless.

One thing I will say is that Poison really isn’t strong enough in the game, and I think that contributes to a lot of the perception with D/D. It should do more damage than it does AND the healing reduction should be affected by condition damage.

>>its a single condition skill in a power weapon set, sure it’d be great if it was the p/d dual skill, but not as the d/d skill.

Condition necromancers use the Scepter in many of their builds.

It has the same number of condition sources as d/d. Is it your argument it intended for power?