Guild Wars 2

Cynz.9437:

i would really love to hear from devs where they see thieves role

they can’t defend points in pvp
they can’t capture them (unless point is empty or very bad players are defending it, but you don’t need to be thief for it…)
they contribute little to group fights
in pve they are overshadowed by warriors/mesmers (mesmers for stealth etc.)
in wvw a ranger can scout as effective except they contribute more to fights

what are thieves for in this game? for roleplaying a ninja?

i think it would really help if devs would set on certain role for thieves and would balance them around that role instead throwing nerfs around just because non-thieves don’t know how to handle stealth

I don’t agree with any of your assertions about what thieves can or can’t do.

Sanduskel.1850:

Cynz.9437:

i would really love to hear from devs where they see thieves role

they can’t defend points in pvp
they can’t capture them (unless point is empty or very bad players are defending it, but you don’t need to be thief for it…)
they contribute little to group fights
in pve they are overshadowed by warriors/mesmers (mesmers for stealth etc.)
in wvw a ranger can scout as effective except they contribute more to fights

what are thieves for in this game? for roleplaying a ninja?

i think it would really help if devs would set on certain role for thieves and would balance them around that role instead throwing nerfs around just because non-thieves don’t know how to handle stealth

I don’t agree with any of your assertions about what thieves can or can’t do.

because you do not or (or not want to) understand the real problem of thieves.

JonPeters also, because he only want to discuss numerics.

It is not really important to have a little bit better values in init, crit or what ever.

Thieves have no rule in group play (wvwvw and pve) and other classes are favorite to take them in groups (like warrior or necros or mesmer).

Thieves are good (not superior) in 1:1 but they want to nerf it more and more….

The Ragnarok Online thief was pretty good.

They had 3 kinds of stealth there:
Cloaking – invisible – can’t be single targeted – can be hit by AoE – revealed when hit
Chase Walk – less visible (invisible + footprints) – can’t be single targeted – revealed when hit
Tunnel Drive – invisible – can’t be single targeted – can’t be hit by AoE (need AoE that hits underground) – revealed when hit

Detection abilities available to other classes
- Sight – for the duration all stealthed targets around you are revealed
- Ruwach – same as Sight + deal damage
- Improve Concentration – reveal stealthed targets around you (only when you cast the spell, no duration)
- Detecting – reveal stealthed targets in a ground targeted area

Detectors can see stealthed targets (players can be detectors through gear)

Perma stealth wasn’t a big deal in that game. Every thief class in that game was in perma stealth if they weren’t attacking. There was pretty much no QQ about it too (plenty of hard counters available to all classes)

Take note, they didn’t have the revealed debuff there. If you are revealed in RO you can simply restealth so long as you could avoid getting hit (getting hit reveals you) after.

The biggest difference here is the only hard counter to stealth comes from ending stealth (with the exception of the recently added “sic em” to rangers) on purpose (you deal damage, you let the timer run out) or by accident (you step into a veil with over 3sec of stealth left, last refuge)

Fadre.2759:

Sanduskel.1850:

Cynz.9437:

i would really love to hear from devs where they see thieves role

they can’t defend points in pvp
they can’t capture them (unless point is empty or very bad players are defending it, but you don’t need to be thief for it…)
they contribute little to group fights
in pve they are overshadowed by warriors/mesmers (mesmers for stealth etc.)
in wvw a ranger can scout as effective except they contribute more to fights

what are thieves for in this game? for roleplaying a ninja?

i think it would really help if devs would set on certain role for thieves and would balance them around that role instead throwing nerfs around just because non-thieves don’t know how to handle stealth

I don’t agree with any of your assertions about what thieves can or can’t do.

because you do not or (or not want to) understand the real problem of thieves.

JonPeters also, because he only want to discuss numerics.

It is not really important to have a little bit better values in init, crit or what ever.

Thieves have no rule in group play (wvwvw and pve) and other classes are favorite to take them in groups (like warrior or necros or mesmer).

Thieves are good (not superior) in 1:1 but they want to nerf it more and more….

That’s your opinion. I do understand the problems, but I don’t think that they are that bad.

Seetoo.9316:

The Ragnarok Online thief was pretty good.

They had 3 kinds of stealth there:
Cloaking – invisible – can’t be single targeted – can be hit by AoE – revealed when hit
Chase Walk – less visible (invisible + footprints) – can’t be single targeted – revealed when hit
Tunnel Drive – invisible – can’t be single targeted – can’t be hit by AoE (need AoE that hits underground) – revealed when hit

Detection abilities available to other classes
- Sight – for the duration all stealthed targets around you are revealed
- Ruwach – same as Sight + deal damage
- Improve Concentration – reveal stealthed targets around you (only when you cast the spell, no duration)
- Detecting – reveal stealthed targets in a ground targeted area

Detectors can see stealthed targets (players can be detectors through gear)

Perma stealth wasn’t a big deal in that game. Every thief class in that game was in perma stealth if they weren’t attacking. There was pretty much no QQ about it too (plenty of hard counters available to all classes)

Take note, they didn’t have the revealed debuff there. If you are revealed in RO you can simply restealth so long as you could avoid getting hit (getting hit reveals you) after.

The biggest difference here is the only hard counter to stealth comes from ending stealth (with the exception of the recently added “sic em” to rangers) on purpose (you deal damage, you let the timer run out) or by accident (you step into a veil with over 3sec of stealth left, last refuge)

just made a topic with this in mind. Was reading all the topics about people saying how bad stealth/rogue was in games and remember RO. Stealth was readily available and Assassins could even 1 hit ppl and recloak a split second later. So why was there so much less QQ about them and realised its bc reveals were so regularly available in RO that only those unprepared were affected. I tried to tailor something for GW2 with those concepts in mind. Balance is all about everything having a weakness and atm hidden has none.

Sanduskel.1850:

Cynz.9437:

i would really love to hear from devs where they see thieves role

they can’t defend points in pvp
they can’t capture them (unless point is empty or very bad players are defending it, but you don’t need to be thief for it…)
they contribute little to group fights
in pve they are overshadowed by warriors/mesmers (mesmers for stealth etc.)
in wvw a ranger can scout as effective except they contribute more to fights

what are thieves for in this game? for roleplaying a ninja?

i think it would really help if devs would set on certain role for thieves and would balance them around that role instead throwing nerfs around just because non-thieves don’t know how to handle stealth

I don’t agree with any of your assertions about what thieves can or can’t do.

i think i might have to rephrase it

my point was that i can take any other class and perform those tasks better than thief

i have a necro for example: i can very very effectively defend point in pvp
i can also can quite effectively fear people off the point, kill them even and capture point
necros have amazing group utility, i would have to make an extra thread just to list of all possible amazing things they can contribute to team fights
in pve they might not offer stealth, ports or run speed but they are pretty good at killing mobs
in wvw necros are probably most desired profession along with guard and warrior

you might not agree with me though, which is fine

Dear Jon,
as someone else already pointed out thieves use initiative to activate all of their skills (on both their weaponsets); that means 1 skill puts a sort of cooldown on every other skill, so it’s not the same as “reducing cooldown by 33% on all skills”.
That been said, if you do not want to have a profession taken hostage by a 15points minor trait here’s what I suggest:

Opportunist
Increased trigger chance to 50%. Increase base cooldown from 1s to 10s. Cooldown is reduced by 0.3s for each point spend in Critical Strikes

at 15 points : 10s – (0.3*15) = 5.5s
at 20 points : 10s – (0.3*20) = 4s
at 25 points : 10s – (0.3*25) = 2.5s
at 30 points : 10s – (0.3*30) = 1s

You should also not change trigger chance, making the trait almost useless for a 15 points spender but letting it rewarding for deep critical builds.

This way no one will go for 15 points just to have this trait, but ppl who do like critical builds will not receive another nerf.

Thank you.

PS: @ all my fellow thieves: if you like my suggestion, please upvote the post using the +1 on the right. tnx

The death of d/p build. That build will absolutely get trounced by anything 1v1. its defense was stealth. it was a bit troll like to be able to hide from a zerg..but did that impact balance? seems not a whole hell of a lot different than walking around CnDing to stay in stealth. A shred more skill to land it.

And its not like it was op 1v1. anyone who plays a thief knows how to make it difficult to get backstabbed.

Disclaimer: i play s/d and d/d. Im just confused as to the pistol nerf. Because it was annoying? Warriors can travel half way across the kitten map to escape bad situations.

So you sat in stealth….you didnt kill anything. d/p sucks in zergs, its sub-optimal in spvp/tpvp. I can understand the full init regain in SR….but the heartseeker/powder combo is easily countered: knock them out, interrupt, stand in the circle,etc. Seems a bunch of QQing non-thieves(or actual thieves that say an evasion spam thief is somehow more respectable…I fail to make that connection)kittened and whined enough to get their way. Anyone worth their salt as a pvper can stop a thief from spamming stealth if he chooses to stay in the area near you(relatively).

Game changing alterations like this one destroy builds. Perhaps minor changes instead of drastic ones at first. Perhaps gain 1 init on an ability that stealths while you are stealthed? That would drain your init sufficiently so you couldnt “perma” spam stealth(quotations because if any thief is allowed to stack 4 heartseekers around you…youre an idiot if you see that circle)

Updated p/p issues at:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/P-P-death-10-Dec
This weapon set is doomed

Best,

Haltair, one of the Twelve Shadows

JonPeters.5630:

Infusion of Shadow
For basic use this trait’s functionality is not going to change. By many players it was being used to grant some initiative when going into stealth. However there were some abusive builds that were using this to maintain very long stealth uptime without having to use their utility skills. The problem with this is that it lets them recharge those skills while in stealth, which takes away the risk associated with using them. We are ok with thieves blowing their cooldowns to have longer stealth, and we are ok with theives bouncing in and out of stealth, but we were not ok with thieves maintaining long duration stealth through abusing a single trait.

I haven’t played my d/p thief for a few months but I have played it for 800 hours.

The Infusion change will drastically alter a d/p thieve’s survivability without any compensation.

So I think if you are going to nerf Black Powder + Heartseeker combo to stop chaining stealth then you really should be making Black Powder much cheaper in terms of initiative.

The ini regen buff won’t aid in survivability for d/p thieves (because we were already running max ini regen builds) but a cheaper projectile finisher+blind field would help.

dzeRnumbrd.6129:

I haven’t played my d/p thief for a few months but I have played it for 800 hours.

The Infusion change will drastically alter a d/p thieve’s survivability without any compensation.

So I think if you are going to nerf Black Powder + Heartseeker combo to stop chaining stealth then you really should be making Black Powder much cheaper in terms of initiative.

The ini regen buff won’t aid in survivability for d/p thieves (because we were already running max ini regen builds) but a cheaper projectile finisher+blind field would help.

if you based your entire playstyle on a camera glitch to perform 4hs in a bp you deserve to die.
d/p how do not abuse the combo will do well even after the patch.

JonPeters.5630:

Versatility for thief. We are giving every single thief build 33% more initiative to work with. We have said this a number of times, but clearly it needs to be said again. If any other profession was getting a patch note that said: Decreased cooldown of all weapon skills by 25%, that would be considered a huge buff. The way initiative works is obfuscating how powerful this change it, but please consider the value of this change when weighing thief changes in this patch.

Cross posting this quote made into the main thread earlier today for reference, since many won’t probably read that since it’s so cluttered.

That mindset makes me a sad panda.

That is a false analogy

The equivalent of opportunist for a non thief would be. Reduce the current timer on a skill that is cooling down by 1sec (or what ever x sec the equivalent of 1 initiative per sec is)

For the same effect the current thief has, all weapon skills would have to be on cd (for at least 1 sec)

Ill still play P/P for PVE. I dont think the change will be as bad as many of you think…at least not for PVE.

You are more than welcome to convince me otherwise.

cesmode, yes it is a minor change for the worse for P/P. But we don’t want it to happen because 1) they gave lamest excuse for it 2) that would allow them to make any other changes without taking anything else in consideration also

Infiltrator’s Return
I hope this doesn’t come with wave goodbye animation when casting.Make it a damage dealing skill as well might be good. Still nerfing this mean thief is less and less superior.
Thief gonna have hard time running PVE with sword though since 1/4 cast time will make less room for error when doging boss attack.

The math is looking more and more like the new Opp/Regen system is better for most builds, equal for some and slightly worse for others (fractionally worse).

Thieves in WvW may not be great group fighters but they are the premier scout class in the game. If someone thinks a Ranger is better, they could not be more wrong. Thieves are also one of the best open world 1v1 classes out there. They may not be as strong in duels but when they choose the fight they are hard to beat.

D/P is now basically on par with D/D… get used to it. Oh and D/D is not dysfunctional… it is actually a really well designed and powerful weaponset.

Ohoni.6057:

The trait you should move up is Uncatchable. That’s a very powerful trait that most thieves take because they’re a dodge-heavy class who benefits most from targets taking damage while they can stealth or move. Definitely worth a Master tier and an important change to keep Trickster from being overshadowed.

Uncatchable is not that great, because the radius is fairly small and bleed caps still have not been fixed. Adding new bleeds is often not useful when the enemy is hovering around 24-25 stacks already. If they moved Uncatchable up the tree it would need a solid buff of some kind, at the very least a radius and duration buff.

If you’ve reached the bleed cap as one player you’re doing 1k DPS base with no extra might or condi damage. I don’t think you realize that caltrops also cripples, which is the more important part. That’s why its called “Uncatchable” and not something related to bleeding.

Oghier.7419:

For a class-balance discussion in an MMO forum, this is pretty darned civilized

That’s because Blizzard still exists. If they ever go under, the scum of the gaming universe would rampage out to every other known forum with any kind of popularity.

JonPeters.5630:

Sorry for the typos, this is from my phone on the bus. Not for dec 10, because it takes time to do, but we are intending to make pistol whip into 2 skills(similar to flanking strike) so we can split initiative costs and balance canceling to chain stun. This is on the docket for the next patch.

Jon

That would probably fix the the Combined Training bug as well…

JonPeters.5630:

Sorry for the typos, this is from my phone on the bus. Not for dec 10, because it takes time to do, but we are intending to make pistol whip into 2 skills(similar to flanking strike) so we can split initiative costs and balance canceling to chain stun. This is on the docket for the next patch.

Jon

Marduh.4603:

Dear JonPeters
What about Retaliation?
Guardian buff mesmer’s clones. Thief eat 7k + damage.
Can still add a cd to this boon, that just kills the possible thief builds.

Hi!
Any changes in retaliation?
Thank you for your attention.

JonPeters.5630:

Sorry for the typos, this is from my phone on the bus. Not for dec 10, because it takes time to do, but we are intending to make pistol whip into 2 skills(similar to flanking strike) so we can split initiative costs and balance canceling to chain stun. This is on the docket for the next patch.

Jon

Why are you splitting pistol whip? Can you explain it in more detail please? Are you doing it for PvE or PvP?

This skill is very important for PvE thieves, so hopefully you can balance it carefully so it doesn’t totally break thieves.

Underlying problem of a thief class is just how useless it is in a group setting. Balance changes are nearly a side show when it comes to the question of: why should I take a thief instead of class X?

We really need to look into group utility for thiefs. I would welcome a new weapon selection that is aimed at group viability, like a longbow/greatsword with control skills.

These things fit well with the Thief class. Longbow with skills like, Grappling Hook, Crippling barrage, Head/Stun Shot (vulnerability stacking).

Or a Greatsword with: Hamstring, Whirling Bash (buff party, 2s cripple on hit foes) etc.

I guess I may be posting dreams for a balance patch, but really that’s what we need to see, more than reducing vigor x or y amount.

JonPeters.5630:

Uncatchable is a good trait, and it was considered for moving up, but ultimately passed on for reasons that escape me right now.Jon

Suggestion – move it to major instead of flanking strikes, but increase the radius by 40.

And I am thrilled about the PW change… When do you estimate can tell us how will it look like? Because it was quite decent before the 15th of October patch (1s rounded stun meant you could hit with half of the flurry before the stun ran out in wvw). And it always was a great skill for PvE.

Are you considering to rework poisons / traps ? What is your opinion about ?

Eles are probably getting an immunity to conditions when they are over 75/80% hp
Will thieves get anything in the defensive compartment ?

Cynz.9437:

i would really love to hear from devs where they see thieves role

….

what are thieves for in this game? for roleplaying a ninja?

i think it would really help if devs would set on certain role for thieves and would balance them around that role instead throwing nerfs around just because non-thieves don’t know how to handle stealth

I second that! Aside from the numeric changes that come every “balance” patch… where is the Thief (or any other) class going in general?

Aside from that, there’s the notion of “counters readily available, by all classes, to counter stealth”… I can see being revealed when hit (via AoE/auto-attacked accidentally) possible to implement, since pretty much everything has an AoE and worst comes to worst just wave your sword around randomly around you… The buffs/skills that reveal or cause you to see stealth… I can’t see that happening… they would have to be utility skills of some sort or weapon skills that already have something that applies to one self also adding in the “see stealth” buff…. but when that happens I would want perma-stealth, and not by the means of d/p, but by once you enter you only leave when attacked, attacking, or the long kitten duration expires.
:D What i can see easily happening is they remove stealth from thieves… And add "you steal X gold when you ‘steal’ "… we’re thieves after all, not some assassin like killers… right…?
… I can already see it… thieves having 3 skills… “steal”, “shank” (does a random amount of damage) and “sprint” ….

JonPeters.5630:

Khisanth.2948:

JonPeters.5630:

Sorry for the typos, this is from my phone on the bus. Not for dec 10, because it takes time to do, but we are intending to make pistol whip into 2 skills(similar to flanking strike) so we can split initiative costs and balance canceling to chain stun. This is on the docket for the next patch.

Jon

That would probably fix the the Combined Training bug as well…

Actually I fixed that bug yesterday when looking at how hard splitting would be and finding the script lacking the combined training check!

Shadow Strike is missing the check as well. For the second strike which would be Shadow Strike 2 according to the combat log.

JonPeters.5630:

We are thinking about making it into two skills that both cost initiative so we can balance the while thing more easily. For example this would let us increase the stun duration.

This would be pretty cool! Being able to re-position yourself for the flurry, instead of locking for the whole thing. you have my vote

JonPeters.5630:

We are thinking about making it into two skills that both cost initiative so we can balance the while thing more easily. For example this would let us increase the stun duration.

What no. Not my Pistol Whip.
Why can’t your team just handle skills as they are?
There is not much different in PW’s core from Hundred Blades, Zealots defense, and Blurred Frenzy but you need to split it in two? What?
Sure sometimes reworks need to be done but I dont think this is the case at all.

Whole thing with Initiative was a global resource to use skills as you need them. The More you split skills the more silly it becomes for the initiative system as I feel for it. If its the case you might as well give the Thief CD’s instead of ini if this is going to be a frequent addition.

Maybe I’ve misread you guys , how do you want S/P to play as a weapon set as it seems to differ from how I feel about it. I thought “Hit & run strong damage that doesn’t get blown up while doing that damage”, and brings significant disruption relative to S/D which is a more defensive kit that weakens (boon steal, cripple, vulnerability) a target while having some of the disable of S/P (tactical strike).
You want to make it just a heavy CC kit?

JonPeters.5630:

Yeah once I saw that one was missing I went and checked them all. We are good to go there now!

And what about “Combo Critical Chance” ? does it work correctly ?
Is 5% enough for a Master trait that affects only 1 of 5 skills and doesn’t affect Shortbow (probably the most common weapon) at all ?

JonPeters.5630:

Pavel.8531:

JonPeters.5630:

Uncatchable is a good trait, and it was considered for moving up, but ultimately passed on for reasons that escape me right now.Jon

Suggestion – move it to major instead of flanking strikes, but increase the radius by 40.

And I am thrilled about the PW change… When do you estimate can tell us how will it look like? Because it was quite decent before the 15th of October patch (1s rounded stun meant you could hit with half of the flurry before the stun ran out in wvw). And it always was a great skill for PvE.

Noted. That is likely what we would have done. I would like to hear the opposing view of players who run this trait with only 10 points in trickery…

Jon

I think the biggest argument to keep Flanking where it is (reachable for players only investing 10-15 in Trickery) is that it’s the best option for a thief in a dungeon that doesn’t need the Fury from Thrill of the Crime.

Ex: If you’re running 15 in Trickery for the extra ini pool, but end up with a S/Warhorn ranger using a red moa, then there’s not much need to bring Thrill of the Crime and Flanking is your only other real decent option.

That being said, I think that’s a pretty small issue.

Just to be clear: IR cast time addon is final?

JonPeters.5630:

Pavel.8531:

JonPeters.5630:

Uncatchable is a good trait, and it was considered for moving up, but ultimately passed on for reasons that escape me right now.Jon

Suggestion – move it to major instead of flanking strikes, but increase the radius by 40.

And I am thrilled about the PW change… When do you estimate can tell us how will it look like? Because it was quite decent before the 15th of October patch (1s rounded stun meant you could hit with half of the flurry before the stun ran out in wvw). And it always was a great skill for PvE.

Noted. That is likely what we would have done. I would like to hear the opposing view of players who run this trait with only 10 points in trickery…

Jon

With the current setup I think it works well as a 10 point trait. This trait is a great example of allowing the thief some breathing room btw. For 20 points the result would have to mirror caltrops (longer/more cripple, bleed and area) to be worth taking. IMO

JonPeters.5630:

Also we are leaving it at 5% chance for now because this one is very hard to test!

I can figure how hard it is but, speaking about trait balance:
adept : +7% crit chance from back or side (unknown angles)
master: +5% on dual skill

the first one affects 10 skills of any build everytime you hit an enemy from behind or the side; the second one affects a maximum of 2 skills (1 if shortbow is equipped) end with a lower bonus.

Hi Jon,
There has already been several replies regarding a statement made about Infiltrators Return(cast time) I am not sure if you have had a chance to read them:
"2) Mostly in PvP, this skill can no longer be used by S/D thieves to teleport stomp someone. This is actually the more impactful moment as it occurs more often, but I think it puts the burden on these players to run a second weapon set that can help them in these situations (OH pistol for instance.

I think there has been some misunderstanding on IR and tele stomping. Its not possible to perform a tele stomp with IS and IR alone . Only through the aid of an F1 or utility skill (30-50sec cd) can a tele stomp involving Infiltrators Return be completed. Even then that involves several steps (IS to traget start stomp IR back and then utili or F1 complete stomp).

Its the thiefs only way to safely secure a stomp in group fights and its quite costly not to mention the thief can still be interrupted when performing this type of stomp . Its far more easier for a bunker to perform stability/invulner stomp.

What are your thoughts on this?

So I run D/D “zergbunker” Trickery specced thief as such:

20/0/0/20/30

This is not a crit spec, it’s not a FOTM spec, and it is a spec that revolves around steal moreso than most. It was enabled by some great updates to Trickery and is being fundamentally made less fun by the proposed trait updates.

Now, The reason why I run it is that the ~20s stealth makes improvisation actually useful, and lotus poison is a nice condition cover from the auto for basically free.

With 20 in acro I’m using assassin’s reward as backup for the composite overall healing from mug and signet of malice. It’s a fun build that’s a hybrid of evasion and self healing, requiring an active defense and a really aggressive playstyle not possible on other thief builds.

I think this merits saying as if the focus is build diversity, I run a pretty uncommon build, which is being kinda gutted of utilities in favor of (In my Opinion) much less interesting bigger damage and healing numbers.

These changes are doing the following to my build:

Increasing overall healing, but only IF I drop either improvisation (and lotus poison) or lead attacks/sleight of hand.

THE problem is, these two traits are only really in the build in order to support one another. Is there any chance we can move/adjust improvisation (which is highly underused/undervalued, and thus should be a candidate for a buff in this patch) to allow it?

TBH it would make more sense as a master trait in trickery anyway, and richochet would make more sense in deadly arts.

How about swapping the position of ricochet and improvisation, moving a pistol DPS trait to the DPS line and a steal focused trait to the steal line? I’d be able to keep the utilities in place, but still have to give up 10 points in deadly, thus losing lotus poison and bountiful theft, which seems like a fair trade for fluid strikes and the ability to run hard to catch and assassin’s reward.

This would also benefit P/P and venomshare builds.

P/P would be able to run lighter on trickery and get more utility out of deadly arts, making the p/p without venom share overall a better spec due to the 5 extra optional points in critical trikes or a defensive line, which synergize much better with p/p. In addition they’d have an overall better base of optional initiative traits to fuel themselves, and P/P builds would just be overall tighter with less “chaff” trait points to get to the good stuff.

This would also have a potential slight benefit on venomshare builds, allowing them the option of running improv and the other venom traits for possible proc recharges.

Aesthetic Quietus.5346:

The death of d/p build. That build will absolutely get trounced by anything 1v1. its defense was stealth. it was a bit troll like to be able to hide from a zerg..but did that impact balance? seems not a whole hell of a lot different than walking around CnDing to stay in stealth. A shred more skill to land it.

I disagree. Decent thieves will still do fine, but it will require them to take more risk and judgment. These are good changes for the health of the game and the class.

As a p/d thief i would prefer to hold acces to Uncatchable and Bountifull theft, and not be forced to choose between these, if you want to push Trickster into t1 swap it with something useless like Instinctual responses instead, and not with something that would destroy build synergy.

The problem with trickster that a lot of related traits like these suffer is that we thieves lack the ability to make full use of these traits as traiting for them in our utilities will leave us extreemly crippled in our survival.

For survival you should therefor try to push traits in each line that add some direct survival or perhaps compromise it more in skillsets themselves or even add survival to the traps/venoms themself for a bigger impact to go for such traits, and use those over deception or signet traits where the overall compromise seems worthy in going deep for these traits.

As for pushing Hard to Catch as a survival skill, this trait would be better suited to give 2-3 seconds of invulnerbilty/evade upon activation, and it might see some play for what you intend with it.

Edit: even though this proposed change would add more passive defense play in the game which i’m not a real fan off, it would however adress the survival in a similair way a lot of other classes have such traits, ( war endure pain / engi automated responses / soon diamond skin on ele’s and more )

JonPeters.5630:

PopeUrban.2578:

So I run D/D “zergbunker” Trickery specced thief as such:

20/0/0/20/30

This is not a crit spec, it’s not a FOTM spec, and it is a spec that revolves around steal moreso than most. It was enabled by some great updates to Trickery and is being fundamentally made less fun by the proposed trait updates.

Now, The reason why I run it is that the ~20s stealth makes improvisation actually useful, and lotus poison is a nice condition cover from the auto for basically free.

With 20 in acro I’m using assassin’s reward as backup for the composite overall healing from mug and signet of malice. It’s a fun build that’s a hybrid of evasion and self healing, requiring an active defense and a really aggressive playstyle not possible on other thief builds.

I think this merits saying as if the focus is build diversity, I run a pretty uncommon build, which is being kinda gutted of utilities in favor of (In my Opinion) much less interesting bigger damage and healing numbers.

These changes are doing the following to my build:

Increasing overall healing, but only IF I drop either improvisation (and lotus poison) or lead attacks/sleight of hand.

THE problem is, these two traits are only really in the build in order to support one another. Is there any chance we can move/adjust improvisation (which is highly underused/undervalued, and thus should be a candidate for a buff in this patch) to allow it?

TBH it would make more sense as a master trait in trickery anyway, and richochet would make more sense in deadly arts.

How about swapping the position of ricochet and improvisation, moving a pistol DPS trait to the DPS line and a steal focused trait to the steal line? I’d be able to keep the utilities in place, but still have to give up 10 points in deadly, thus losing lotus poison and bountiful theft, which seems like a fair trade for fluid strikes and the ability to run hard to catch and assassin’s reward.

This would also benefit P/P and venomshare builds.

P/P would be able to run lighter on trickery and get more utility out of deadly arts, making the p/p without venom share overall a better spec due to the 5 extra optional points in critical trikes or a defensive line, which synergize much better with p/p. In addition they’d have an overall better base of optional initiative traits to fuel themselves, and P/P builds would just be overall tighter with less “chaff” trait points to get to the good stuff.

This would also have a potential slight benefit on venomshare builds, allowing them the option of running improv and the other venom traits for possible proc recharges.

This is great feedback. One thing I will tell you is that now your build has 33% more initiative than it used to. This will gain you back that lost survivability and then some IMO.

Jon

@popeurban the other pistol traits are in CS… I dont see how ricochet fits better in DA.

@Jon
The thing with the initiative change is that the thief will now have to decide play offensive or defensive. The option for initiative gain through signets for that last minute defensive play is being taken off the table…

So I still don’t see how reducing costs to elementalists attunement swap is being considered balanced when they are getting much improved traits to survive. Please at the very least change Hard to Catch as many have suggested. Remove the randomness to the trait. Something like other classes, the CC doesn’t work, thief goes invuln for 2s, grants stability for 5s, a change so it relays synergy to the thief class. Honestly I’ll probably still take Pain Response as the 20 point trait since it is a toss up between the lack of stunbreakers and condition removal which are both horrid on thief compared to other classes.

JonPeters.5630:

Pavel.8531:

JonPeters.5630:

Uncatchable is a good trait, and it was considered for moving up, but ultimately passed on for reasons that escape me right now.Jon

Suggestion – move it to major instead of flanking strikes, but increase the radius by 40.

And I am thrilled about the PW change… When do you estimate can tell us how will it look like? Because it was quite decent before the 15th of October patch (1s rounded stun meant you could hit with half of the flurry before the stun ran out in wvw). And it always was a great skill for PvE.

Noted. That is likely what we would have done. I would like to hear the opposing view of players who run this trait with only 10 points in trickery…

Jon

I happen to use uncatchable in adept in a p/p build with ricochet in master.

The build is currently 0 20 0 30 20 quad pistols (for quick pockets and quick recovery -> unload spam) 15 crit strikes was pretty mandatory so I took combo crit chance as well.

This was meant to be one of the boys up in the front lines where surviving relied a lot on signet of malice + ricochet and feline grace. You can’t “win” every encounter. There will always be oh crap moments where you have to run. Right now uncatchable is the only way my 4p build gets to run away. Cripple for the runners and body shot for the leapers/teletubies.

If you bring uncatchable up to master, then it competes with ricochet and ricochet > uncatchable. Ricochet + signet of malice turn unload into a significant heal skill (which is what lets me stay in the front lines)

Now it was suggested that ricochet could be moved to DA (swap with improvisation). I could get behind that since 3/5 p skills benefit from condition duration. Then unload could benefit from the power.