Guild Wars 2 Forum

P/P death: 10 Dec

Dear Devs, I belong to the biggest thieves´ guild in the whole world.
At the moment you are talking about changes that will kill the p/p weapon set.
For some of us that weapon set is the only playable one due to internet connection and computer issues. It is less affected by lag.
If you bury it we will not be able to play the game anymore.
The changes will affect pvp, MvM and PvE.

Below you will find dozens of opinions saying the same, you are killing one of the less used builds, p/p .
If these concerns are already known by the dev team and the best alterantive is to choose the lesser evil just tell us, please.

Best,

Haltair, one of the Twelve Shadows

Some oppinions regarding p/p:

Haltair, One of the Twelve Shadows
Baruch Bay´s Thieves Brotherhood, Order of Shadows
Orden de Sombras [OdS]

(edited 2013-11-05 12:08:15 by Haltair.3062)

P/P death: 10 Dec

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Posted by: Big Tower.5423

Big Tower.5423

Not to sound harsh, but ive never heard of either you or your guild :P

7800 hours ingame, and counting.

P/P death: 10 Dec

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Posted by: sminkiottone.6972

sminkiottone.6972

Vigor is nerfed for almost every class, Anet cannot base skill balance on bad connections/Hardware, that would be silly.

p/p will still be viable.

P/P death: 10 Dec

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Posted by: Skallagrim.4071

Skallagrim.4071

P/P viability is/was based on being able to stay away from your opponents via dodges and teleports. There are several changes that will make it non-viable since they won’t be able to get away. P/P thieves just can’t stand toe to toe for long.

Until I see how the base initiative gain changes I am hesitant to say if it is a net loss for DPS but I can say with certainty that mobility is reduced quite a bit. I understand why they are making the changes but I am with the OP in wondering if they took this build into consideration. It isn’t one of the more powerful builds to begin with.

P/P death: 10 Dec

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Posted by: style.6173

style.6173

Big Tower.5423:
Not to sound harsh, but ive never heard of either you or your guild :P

and that has to do with P/P how?

P/P death: 10 Dec

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Posted by: Haltair.3062

Haltair.3062

Big Tower.5423:
Not to sound harsh, but ive never heard of either you or your guild :P

Focusing on the topic, p/p is doomed.

Best,

Haltair

Haltair, One of the Twelve Shadows
Baruch Bay´s Thieves Brotherhood, Order of Shadows
Orden de Sombras [OdS]

(edited 2013-11-05 18:03:41 by Haltair.3062)

P/P death: 10 Dec

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Posted by: Big Tower.5423

Big Tower.5423

I really disagree on that, becuse p/p has allways been USELESS and broken.

7800 hours ingame, and counting.

P/P death: 10 Dec

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Posted by: cesmode.4257

cesmode.4257

So for PVE…why are these changes going to kill my build? Because of a change to vigor?

Karma is as abundant as air, and as useless as the Kardashians.

P/P death: 10 Dec

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Posted by: cesmode.4257

cesmode.4257

Big Tower.5423:
I really disagree on that, becuse p/p has allways been USELESS and broken.

Erm. No.
Its probably on par with every non-warrior zerker setup. I’m able to string together 3 or 4 unloads for about 7-9k each, sometimes 10 or 11k if I have full might stacks. Id say thats not too shabby.

Karma is as abundant as air, and as useless as the Kardashians.

P/P death: 10 Dec

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Posted by: Einlanzer.1627

Einlanzer.1627

cesmode.4257:
Big Tower.5423:
I really disagree on that, becuse p/p has allways been USELESS and broken.

Erm. No.
Its probably on par with every non-warrior zerker setup. I’m able to string together 3 or 4 unloads for about 7-9k each, sometimes 10 or 11k if I have full might stacks. Id say thats not too shabby.

Yeah except it’s not just about how much burst damage it’s capable of. The set is fundamentally broken because it relies too much on both Initiative starvation and the ability to stand still to do even mediocre sustained DPS.

This is a problem that will remain in place until Vital Shot gets a substantial buff.

P/P death: 10 Dec

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Posted by: Big Tower.5423

Big Tower.5423

cesmode.4257:
Big Tower.5423:
I really disagree on that, becuse p/p has allways been USELESS and broken.

Erm. No.
Its probably on par with every non-warrior zerker setup. I’m able to string together 3 or 4 unloads for about 7-9k each, sometimes 10 or 11k if I have full might stacks. Id say thats not too shabby.

Well, a dodge or a CC and you waste 5 init, it also suffers from only having 1 source of damage, and that is not AA.

7800 hours ingame, and counting.

P/P death: 10 Dec

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Posted by: Auesis.7301

Auesis.7301

sminkiottone.6972:
Vigor is nerfed for almost every class

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Critical_Infusion

Is it? Is it really?

Gnome Child [Gc]
Resident Thief

P/P death: 10 Dec

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Posted by: TeamBattleAxe.3901

TeamBattleAxe.3901

As a P/P thief main, I welcome these changes.

Adapt.

El Taquito Bandito: Stealthless Gunslinger Thief
H Y P E T R A I N
Best Fireworks Thief NA

P/P death: 10 Dec

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Posted by: Advent.6193

Advent.6193

TeamBattleAxe.3901:
As a P/P thief main, I welcome these changes.

Adapt.

You know me, bro – another Gunslinger. Here’s the problem, however:

There’re only so many times that major class Traits or functions can be “shaved” down, and one can adapt to it. I’m sure we both can agree that certain of those changes limit Thief mobility in general, which definitely hurts a Gunslinger spec. Init regen rates, I’ll need to faff about with – they might even out in the end. HtC, I just think needs a bit of extra something added; if not control over its path, then mayhap some condi-clear.
(It’s honestly past time that SA was no longer the “major” condi-clear method … that honestly makes no sense, if one’s supposed to be able to run stealth or evade, as they see fit. /shrug)

Although, I could merely be biased, considering that I pretty much mainline Mesmer/Thief, then Elementalist – all of whom have definitely had their ups and downs.

Malegryne (Sylvari Mesmer), Lannka (Asura Thief) – Ferguson’s Crossing: [PRD/BRB/OMFG]
Other 80s: Any but Warrior

P/P death: 10 Dec

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Posted by: Sizzle Hint.1820

Sizzle Hint.1820

P/P was broken befoyre already (not saying they should break it even more)

Thief survivability:

Evasion
Stealth
Blinds

P/P lacks 2 of these and does 1 subpar, thats why it’s bad.

11k Unloads are unrealistic in sPvP and even in WvW (maybe if u kill a lvl 2 upscaled you can pull it off). But even if you could do 11k Unloads consistently you would still lose most 1on1s because you have ZERO defense.

P/P death: 10 Dec

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Posted by: TeamBattleAxe.3901

TeamBattleAxe.3901

Advent.6193:
TeamBattleAxe.3901:
As a P/P thief main, I welcome these changes.

Adapt.

You know me, bro – another Gunslinger. Here’s the problem, however:

There’re only so many times that major class Traits or functions can be “shaved” down, and one can adapt to it. I’m sure we both can agree that certain of those changes limit Thief mobility in general, which definitely hurts a Gunslinger spec. Init regen rates, I’ll need to faff about with – they might even out in the end. HtC, I just think needs a bit of extra something added; if not control over its path, then mayhap some condi-clear.
(It’s honestly past time that SA was no longer the “major” condi-clear method … that honestly makes no sense, if one’s supposed to be able to run stealth or evade, as they see fit. /shrug)

Although, I could merely be biased, considering that I pretty much mainline Mesmer/Thief, then Elementalist – all of whom have definitely had their ups and downs.

I think you should wait and get a feel for the changes first. The ini changes may actually be comparable to what we run now except now we’ll have free trait points to spend elsewhere. And as for the vigor nerf, I already see a way around that.

El Taquito Bandito: Stealthless Gunslinger Thief
H Y P E T R A I N
Best Fireworks Thief NA

P/P death: 10 Dec

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Posted by: Chicago Jack.5647

Chicago Jack.5647

Well done Haltair, well done. Clearly you’ve shown a lot about the general forum-goer here today and, as an aside, I would welcome more links. k thx bai.

P/P death: 10 Dec

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Posted by: Ichishi.9613

Ichishi.9613

I want to be a main P/P thief. And P/P thief needs everything he has to be comparable to other builds and classes.
And the incoming changes sure as hell do not buff our damage in any way at all. The opposite is still debatable, but already quite obvious.

P/P death: 10 Dec

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Posted by: cesmode.4257

cesmode.4257

Big Tower.5423:
cesmode.4257:
Big Tower.5423:
I really disagree on that, becuse p/p has allways been USELESS and broken.

Erm. No.
Its probably on par with every non-warrior zerker setup. I’m able to string together 3 or 4 unloads for about 7-9k each, sometimes 10 or 11k if I have full might stacks. Id say thats not too shabby.

Well, a dodge or a CC and you waste 5 init, it also suffers from only having 1 source of damage, and that is not AA.

Dodging doesnt take away initiative.

Karma is as abundant as air, and as useless as the Kardashians.

P/P death: 10 Dec

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Posted by: cesmode.4257

cesmode.4257

Einlanzer.1627:
cesmode.4257:
Big Tower.5423:
I really disagree on that, becuse p/p has allways been USELESS and broken.

Erm. No.
Its probably on par with every non-warrior zerker setup. I’m able to string together 3 or 4 unloads for about 7-9k each, sometimes 10 or 11k if I have full might stacks. Id say thats not too shabby.

Yeah except it’s not just about how much burst damage it’s capable of. The set is fundamentally broken because it relies too much on both Initiative starvation and the ability to stand still to do even mediocre sustained DPS.

This is a problem that will remain in place until Vital Shot gets a substantial buff.

Last I checked, I can move while unloading. So while I am unloading x 3, I am constantly moving, not standing still.

I do agree, that the spec is fundamentally boring, but not broken. All you do is unload spam, thats it. A buff to something like Vital shot would be a nice wrench into the mix.

Karma is as abundant as air, and as useless as the Kardashians.

P/P death: 10 Dec

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Posted by: cesmode.4257

cesmode.4257

Ichishi.9613:
I want to be a main P/P thief. And P/P thief needs everything he has to be comparable to other builds and classes.
And the incoming changes sure as hell do not buff our damage in any way at all. The opposite is still debatable, but already quite obvious.

I still truly believe that P/P, at least in PVE, is on par with other straight up zerker builds of other classes. Give or take, they all find themselves equal in my eyes.

IMO, the only spec/weapon combo that is light years ahead of anyone else is greatsword warrior and Im astonished that this is allowed to continue,.

Karma is as abundant as air, and as useless as the Kardashians.

P/P death: 10 Dec

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Posted by: cesmode.4257

cesmode.4257

Sizzle Hint.1820:
P/P was broken befoyre already (not saying they should break it even more)

Thief survivability:

Evasion
Stealth
Blinds

P/P lacks 2 of these and does 1 subpar, thats why it’s bad.

11k Unloads are unrealistic in sPvP and even in WvW (maybe if u kill a lvl 2 upscaled you can pull it off). But even if you could do 11k Unloads consistently you would still lose most 1on1s because you have ZERO defense.

Initially I used my P/P build for high-level fractals. High damage output, high survivability. The ability to keep moving, keep dodging and be rewarded for dodging via might stacks only compliments the core of the build, which is unload.

I haven’t read all of the changes, just one stuck out which was a vigor change. We’ll see what this does.

Karma is as abundant as air, and as useless as the Kardashians.

P/P death: 10 Dec

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Posted by: Ichishi.9613

Ichishi.9613

cesmode.4257:
Einlanzer.1627:
cesmode.4257:
Big Tower.5423:
I really disagree on that, becuse p/p has allways been USELESS and broken.

Erm. No.
Its probably on par with every non-warrior zerker setup. I’m able to string together 3 or 4 unloads for about 7-9k each, sometimes 10 or 11k if I have full might stacks. Id say thats not too shabby.

Yeah except it’s not just about how much burst damage it’s capable of. The set is fundamentally broken because it relies too much on both Initiative starvation and the ability to stand still to do even mediocre sustained DPS.

This is a problem that will remain in place until Vital Shot gets a substantial buff.

Last I checked, I can move while unloading. So while I am unloading x 3, I am constantly moving, not standing still.

I do agree, that the spec is fundamentally boring, but not broken. All you do is unload spam, thats it. A buff to something like Vital shot would be a nice wrench into the mix.

By movement, dodge was meant. With unload, you cannot brainlessly damage, dodge, damage. Its a channel ability that takes its full cost at start of channel.

P/P death: 10 Dec

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Posted by: Einlanzer.1627

Einlanzer.1627

Ichishi.9613:
cesmode.4257:
Einlanzer.1627:
cesmode.4257:
Big Tower.5423:
I really disagree on that, becuse p/p has allways been USELESS and broken.

Erm. No.
Its probably on par with every non-warrior zerker setup. I’m able to string together 3 or 4 unloads for about 7-9k each, sometimes 10 or 11k if I have full might stacks. Id say thats not too shabby.

Yeah except it’s not just about how much burst damage it’s capable of. The set is fundamentally broken because it relies too much on both Initiative starvation and the ability to stand still to do even mediocre sustained DPS.

This is a problem that will remain in place until Vital Shot gets a substantial buff.

Last I checked, I can move while unloading. So while I am unloading x 3, I am constantly moving, not standing still.

I do agree, that the spec is fundamentally boring, but not broken. All you do is unload spam, thats it. A buff to something like Vital shot would be a nice wrench into the mix.

By movement, dodge was meant. With unload, you cannot brainlessly damage, dodge, damage. Its a channel ability that takes its full cost at start of channel.

Correct, I didn’t mean you literally couldn’t move, I meant that your mobility and ability to react while maintaining even mediocre DPS is severely restricted.

The only way P/P can function reasonably is as a total burst set, and even then only when you don’t need standard mobility to survive. It is far below par in every other area, including sustained DPS, in large part because Vital Shot needs a significant buff.

P/P death: 10 Dec

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Posted by: Haltair.3062

Haltair.3062

More p/p related comments here:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Dec-10th-Balance-Preview/3157214
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Dec-10th-Balance-Preview/3157914
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Dec-10th-Balance-Preview/3160620
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Dec-10th-thief-changes/3160639
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Dec-10th-thief-changes/3159137
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Dec-10th-thief-changes/3159343
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Dec-10th-thief-changes/3159740/quote
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Dec-10th-thief-changes/3159750

This weapon set is doomed….

Best,

Haltair, one of the Twelve Shadows

Haltair, One of the Twelve Shadows
Baruch Bay´s Thieves Brotherhood, Order of Shadows
Orden de Sombras [OdS]

P/P death: 10 Dec

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Posted by: Haltair.3062

Haltair.3062

More p/p issues here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Farewell-my-D-D-theif-after-Dec-10th/3156000
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Farewell-my-D-D-theif-after-Dec-10th/3157783
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Farewell-my-D-D-theif-after-Dec-10th/3161124

Any answer from developers?

Best,

Haltair, one of the Twelve Shadows

Haltair, One of the Twelve Shadows
Baruch Bay´s Thieves Brotherhood, Order of Shadows
Orden de Sombras [OdS]

P/P death: 10 Dec

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Posted by: Volrath.1473

Volrath.1473

humm…. and I thought P/P was born dead…

P/P death: 10 Dec

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Posted by: Haltair.3062

Haltair.3062

More thougts about p/p issues:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Dec-10th-thief-changes/3164274
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Dec-10th-thief-changes/3164415
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Dec-10th-thief-changes/3165145
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Dec-10th-thief-changes/3165430
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Dec-10th-thief-changes/3165964
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Dec-10th-thief-changes/3166035

Best,

Haltair, one of the Twelve Shadows

Haltair, One of the Twelve Shadows
Baruch Bay´s Thieves Brotherhood, Order of Shadows
Orden de Sombras [OdS]

P/P death: 10 Dec

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Posted by: phys.7689

phys.7689

Haltair.3062:
Dear Devs, I belong to the biggest thieves´ guild in the whole world.
At the moment you are talking about changes that will kill the p/p weapon set.
For some of us that weapon set is the only playable one due to internet connection and computer issues. It is less affected by lag.
If you bury it we will not be able to play the game anymore.
The changes will affect pvp, MvM and PvE.

Below you will find dozens of opinions saying the same, you are killing one of the less used builds, p/p .
If these concerns are already known by the dev team and the best alterantive is to choose the lesser evil just tell us, please.

Best,

Haltair, one of the Twelve Shadows

Some oppinions regarding p/p:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Dec-10th-thief-changes/3154426
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Dec-10th-Balance-Preview/3151773
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Dec-10th-Balance-Preview/3150950
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Dec-10th-Balance-Preview/3151304
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Dec-10th-Balance-Preview/3152947
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Farewell-my-D-D-theif-after-Dec-10th/3145857
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Farewell-my-D-D-theif-after-Dec-10th/3146912
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Farewell-my-D-D-theif-after-Dec-10th/3146913
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Farewell-my-D-D-theif-after-Dec-10th/3147266
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Farewell-my-D-D-theif-after-Dec-10th/3147899
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Farewell-my-D-D-theif-after-Dec-10th/3152343
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Farewell-my-D-D-theif-after-Dec-10th/3145689
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Farewell-my-D-D-theif-after-Dec-10th/3145857
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Dec-10th-thief-changes/3154416
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Dec-10th-thief-changes/3152397
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Dec-10th-thief-changes/3152516
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Dec-10th-thief-changes/3152724
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Dec-10th-thief-changes/3152865
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Dec-10th-thief-changes/3152893
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Dec-10th-thief-changes/3149387
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Dec-10th-thief-changes/3150657
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Dec-10th-Balance-Preview/3150669
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Dec-10th-Balance-Preview/3150796
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Dec-10th-Balance-Preview/3145525

sorry but PP was dead since launch. The fact that one of the main things going for it, is its lag friendly since it almost plays itself, is not a plus. It needs a big rework, and it doesnt have much options since its 1 2 and 4 5 is locked in.

P/P death: 10 Dec

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Posted by: Haltair.3062

Haltair.3062

More comments related to p/p issues:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Dec-10th-thief-changes/3171984
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Dec-10th-thief-changes/3171652
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Dec-10th-thief-changes/3171399
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Dec-10th-thief-changes/3170851

More than fifty comments from different people regarding p/p isssues due to the “new balance”. Many of them are quite constructive.
Please, take in account that nobody says that p/p will be buffed, there is not controversy on this. Everybody agrees that the changes are a nerf for p/p and that the weapon set needs a buff (since the first day of GW2).

Best,

Haltair, one of the Twelve Shadows

Haltair, One of the Twelve Shadows
Baruch Bay´s Thieves Brotherhood, Order of Shadows
Orden de Sombras [OdS]

P/P death: 10 Dec

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Posted by: Magische Boek.2530

Magische Boek.2530

for something to die doesnt it need to live first? other than perplexity i do not know a viable pvp option for P/P, no mobility, no stealth, just a blind field. i would love to play P/P because it looks cool but currently all other weapon sets are better.

I’m not arguing!
I’m simply explaining why I’m right.