Guild Wars 2

Tyler Chapman.1832:

Oghier.7419:

D/D didn’t get nerfed. Increasing base initiative gain by 33% is a pretty big deal.

It’s more than a big deal. It’s a MASSSSSSSSSIVE buff to all thief specs.

Opportunist change on 5 second cooldown…yeah…

The best part is that any thief with 20 points in acrobatics getting the 2 init per 10 will be receiving A WHOPPING MASSIVE .5 extra initiative per 10 seconds, not even a full initiative. Yet with the nerf to opportunist we will be losing so much more initiative. The only spec that may feel any beneficial change would be a condi thief, and for them it might just be .5 more init per 10 seconds.

OMG I forgot about the nerf to Quick Recovery… Wow. MASSIVE INCREASE GUYZ!

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand this thread could have been avoided if the developers actually played the thief. :3

The increase of the Ini reg. is much stronger than every nerf, from the signets, Quick Recover and Opportunist, together.
Calm down guys.

Fun only zerg p/p p/p thief here, so take what I say with that in mind.

I react cuz I see a post saying p/p will get killed off should the patch go through. I imagine this would be because of the ini generation through traits/utilities.

The net loss in inigen is gonna force me to throttle the unload, but that also means I can take other traits/utilities now.
- Unless I’m wrong, quick pockets didn’t take a hit so my biggers inigen (3 every 9) is still there.
- I can finally bring down crit strikes down to 10 (10% pistol damage) and take 10 in deadly arts for the stats (100 pow and condur are really beneficial to p/p) and sundering strikes (0icd if patch goes through).
- I can finally let go if quick recovery and take ANY other trait (like fleet of foot since I have 0 escapes)

On another note, with the new oils giving 10% condur getting 100% condur got easier (8sec bleed, 2sec immobilize).

Black Teagan.9215:

The increase of the Ini reg. is much stronger than every nerf, from the signets, Quick Recover and Opportunist, together.
Calm down guys.

Any numbers to back that up? The opportunist nerf alone is a net loss in initiative regen for s/p and p/p. D/D might break even, but I still think it will be a loss if chaining autos. The opportunist nerf is pretty huge for some specs.

It’s really not a nerf for D/D, but it should be. I’ve got a Thief, and I’m sorry it’s so stupidly easy to pubstomp people with it. Compared to other classes that take a huge amount a skill for not even half the reward… yeah, it needs to be harder. :P

Sanarian.9614:

It’s really not a nerf for D/D, but it should be. I’ve got a Thief, and I’m sorry it’s so stupidly easy to pubstomp people with it. Compared to other classes that take a huge amount a skill for not even half the reward… yeah, it needs to be harder. :P

I’m not really sure if you’re being sarcastic or not…

Stx.4857:

Seriously? Did you really just say that? How can we take you Devs seriously when you make statements like that? Do you realize how much of a nerf increasing the ICD on Opportunist will be?

P/D got an initiative gain with this, and probably S/D as well, but D/D is more or less no gain/no loss, and S/P is losing a lot of initiative gain now. D/P will also probably take a hit to initiative gain.

0.75/s to 1/s is indeed a great buff and the ICD on Opportunist should be balanced by the 50% chance (hard to say now)

I think i’ll stay d/p since i don’t constantly spam 2 into the field but i use it just to gain stealth for a BS and that’ll remain untouched.

Access to protection would be appreciated.

Doggie.3184:

Tyler Chapman.1832:

Oghier.7419:

D/D didn’t get nerfed. Increasing base initiative gain by 33% is a pretty big deal.

It’s more than a big deal. It’s a MASSSSSSSSSIVE buff to all thief specs.

Critical Strikes + Trickery S/D? :o

R.I.P. 10th December 2013

JonPeters.5630:

Thief:

• Shadow Return on Sword. Renamed to Infiltrator’s return. Added a 1/4s cast time.
• Trickery VII – Bountiful Theft. Reduced vigor duration to from 15s to 8s.

in sPvP.

For 1980 armor and 14k health pool, stability and protection only through theft, low access to blind, dodges which were already a bit harder to maintain than in other builds, not being able to escape stun chaining and burst using Shadow Return for a class/build that can’t affort to be locked down for even a second will be the death of it I’m afraid. Otherwise, the base initiative increase would have been a really nice addition and made the setup smoother, more fun and the ability to stay in team fights for longer.

I’ll enjoy my last month with it, then I’ll see what I do.

Daendur.2357:

Stx.4857:

Seriously? Did you really just say that? How can we take you Devs seriously when you make statements like that? Do you realize how much of a nerf increasing the ICD on Opportunist will be?

P/D got an initiative gain with this, and probably S/D as well, but D/D is more or less no gain/no loss, and S/P is losing a lot of initiative gain now. D/P will also probably take a hit to initiative gain.

0.75/s to 1/s is indeed a great buff and the ICD on Opportunist should be balanced by the 50% chance (hard to say now)

I think i’ll stay d/p since i don’t constantly spam 2 into the field but i use it just to gain stealth for a BS and that’ll remain untouched.

Access to protection would be appreciated.

No, the cooldown on Opportunist will not be balanced by the % increase.

S/P and P/P thieves could proc opportunist once every second using their dual skills. Dagger auto attacks can proc it every 2 seconds assuming 50% crit, or every 1.5 seconds using a standard backstab rotation in pve with proper gear and fury.

With this change, pretty much every crit based spec will be taking an initiative regen nerf in PvE. In PvP it wont be as bad, because we don’t have 100% uptime on our targets.

Either way, to say these changes are a ‘massive deal’ in a positive way is just incredibly wrong.

Stx.4857:

No, the cooldown on Opportunist will not be balanced by the % increase.

S/P and P/P thieves could proc opportunist once every second using their dual skills. Dagger auto attacks can proc it every 2 seconds assuming 50% crit, or every 1.5 seconds using a standard backstab rotation in pve with proper gear and fury.

With this change, pretty much every crit based spec will be taking an initiative regen nerf in PvE. In PvP it wont be as bad, because we don’t have 100% uptime on our targets.

Either way, to say these changes are a ‘massive deal’ in a positive way is just incredibly wrong.

Oh, PvE … sorry, i usually forget it.

well devs probably base their changes on the QQs of uplevels on the forums.

look at the bright side.. now we can run around in sPvP/tPvP and uncap points even better… thats why i play this game, not to actually do PvP :P

since i don’t use sword and i dont permastealth i see only a MASSSSSSSSSIVE nerf to vigor and my evasion.

But hey!!! it’s MASSSSSSSSSIVE!!!!!

mrmadhaze.8706:

since i don’t use sword and i dont permastealth i see only a MASSSSSSSSSIVE nerf to vigor and my evasion.

But hey!!! it’s MASSSSSSSSSIVE!!!!!

Made me lul. +1, guy.

Tyler Chapman.1832:

Oghier.7419:

D/D didn’t get nerfed. Increasing base initiative gain by 33% is a pretty big deal.

It’s more than a big deal. It’s a MASSSSSSSSSIVE buff to all thief specs.

Except P/P. You killed off any resurrection of this set and nailed its coffin shut. I’ve evaluated the nerfs and successfully testing a D/P build that will be uneffected by it. It will do fine.

-D/P + SB user.

MASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSIVE

Tyler Chapman.1832:

It’s more than a big deal. It’s a MASSSSSSSSSIVE buff to all thief specs.

My signet build will only get a MASSSSSSSSSIVE nerf to initiative gain. After this update I will have to wait at least 16-20 sec to get the same amount of initiative which im getting right now, from signet use and steal.

Stx.4857:

Black Teagan.9215:

The increase of the Ini reg. is much stronger than every nerf, from the signets, Quick Recover and Opportunist, together.
Calm down guys.

Any numbers to back that up?

For what, it is simple math.

With 100% critchance, trigger opportunist average 1 time every 3,3 seconds. this were 3,3 inis in 10 secs, the same value, like the improved ini reg. gives you in 10 secs.
And lesser critchance means less inis from opportunist.

Tyler Chapman.1832:

Oghier.7419:

D/D didn’t get nerfed. Increasing base initiative gain by 33% is a pretty big deal.

It’s more than a big deal. It’s a MASSSSSSSSSIVE buff to all thief specs.

sorry people are yelling at you, you guys have to understand though, that theif users are angrier than other professions, because almost since launch you have been constantly either nerfing theif, or altering their main playstyles. For a thief every single update usually is them hoping to be ignored, because very little good comes from an update.

But to try to put the negative feedback in a more constructive fashion,

1) I dont think your initiative math will work out to a big or any increase for many builds that used ini gaining skills, This of course is probably your intent, but i dont think you should have lowered the max ini gain in normalizing it.

2) most builds that use crit% of 50%+ and opportunist wont see much change t ini gain.

To be honest i think ini normalisation is a good thing to happen, but i dont think max ini gain should go down. I think you need to change ini to a higher point system so you can make less drastic changes to skills, or start giving out partial ini point gains. some skills take to heavy a loss in use going from 1 to 2 points or having to put cooldowns on the skills, it probably better if you had an initiative pool of like 120 instead of 12, then you could adjust point gains of 20 to say 15 instead of 2 to 1.

But this isnt the big problem, the big problem is you need to stop nerfing thief survivability, thief doesnt have a lot of survivability, it has the least defensive potential in the game.

Thieves were built with the idea that thief is supposed to actively avoid and react to damage, this is why they have decent access to vigor, more active dodge skills. you are lowering ALL builds access to vigor with this patch, I dont think anyone would argue that thief was too tanky, what are most builds supposed to do to compensate for this loss in defense? keep in mind this solution should be in the spirit and playstyle of thief which is supposed to benefit more from reactionary type play.

Giving thief a bunch of protection, or increased heals, while nice, would not promote the spirit of play that thief is supposed to be about.

also if you want to improve the validity of engaged thief play, signet of malice is a better candidate for a buff than assassins reward.

It gives HP for actually hitting the target, which you cant use while running away, and its not a level 30 grandmaster trait.

Assassins reward buff as the means of survivability is working cross purposes to opening up other builds since it is a level 30 ability, it also rewards initiative use, which doesnt necessarily mean you are engaging.

I mean to be honest, it needed a buff regardless, however it is not going to be the answer for the nerf you are doing to MOST thieves builds survivability by nerfing vigor uptime on thief specifically

My ‘back of the napkin’ numbers, being a signet thief (Yeah, I know, shut it!) is -3 init every 15 seconds just from the signet loss (from 2 down to 1), and the opportunist on top of that…

The extra base regen doesn’t cover half my losses.

MASSSSSSSIVE MISCALCULATION!

Black Teagan.9215:

Stx.4857:

Black Teagan.9215:

The increase of the Ini reg. is much stronger than every nerf, from the signets, Quick Recover and Opportunist, together.
Calm down guys.

Any numbers to back that up?

For what, it is simple math.

With 100% critchance, trigger opportunist average 1 time every 3,3 seconds. this were 3,3 inis in 10 secs, the same value, like the improved ini reg. gives you in 10 secs.
And lesser critchance means less inis from opportunist.

you are assuming the average attack speed for thief is once every second, you must consider multihit skills, and aoe attacks as well.
the absolute limit is 1 per second, (lets assume it will always proc just to see the luckiest or best case scenario in either case)

lets say that it takes 1 second to get it to proc again just from animation times,
you get optimal case of 1 ini per 2 second gain

optimal post patch,
you get optimal gain of 1 per 6 second gain.

so while the old skill had a max potential of being a .5 per second ini gain the new skill has a max potential of being a .16 per sec ini gain.

ini gain has gone up .25 but the skill has gone down .34
so the max potential of ini gain with the skill has gone down .9

even if the 50% chance thing comes into play, i approximate that it will likely put you around break even point +- due to luck

so really, crit builds are probably going to notice minimal to no gains in using opportunist in battle (this change does help outside of battle thieves though which i thought is what they wanted to de incentize though)

they want to give thieves more reasons to engage, but changes to opportunist do the opposite.

Out of all the professions right now, the thief thread discussing the patch changes has the least amount of people in it. Pretty much proves the thief players have left the forums (or probably the game.). When dec 10 comes in, I bet half of the thieves are going to reroll or leave the game. The rest will just play for the sake of playing the “thief” profession.

Thanks for… the nothing much you did for thieves. It was a fun ride when some of the imba things were around.

You’ll always have super p/d build after the patch OP.

D/P burst trickery build in spvp is getting buff because it doesn’t use any of the nerfed traits except Opportunist.

Almost all wvw builds just got huge nerf with infusion of shadow tho…

swinsk.6410:

Almost all wvw builds just got huge nerf with infusion of shadow tho…

Except base initiative regen was brought up 33%. It’s already been maths’d that it’s pretty much a great buff.. except for the cheese d/p permastealth guys.

Where are these Mathds? All I’ve seen so far is people saying, oh, it will be great!

And my rough mathds say that I’m looking at a 20% decrease in overall init and a significant loss of init when I’m trying to GTFO – using 2 or 3 signets and steal – I’m talking about spike init regen when you’re in trouble – goes from 2 each for 3 signets and 3 for steal for a total of 9 down to 1 for each of 3 signets + 2 for steal.

So 9 vs 5. With the base init regen of .75/second to 1/second, it’s a difference of 16 seconds to get back that difference.

I’m sure the mob of enemy players behind me trying to kill me won’t mind waiting around 16 seconds while I innately regen another infiltrator’s arrow that will save my life.

This is bull crap, pure and simple. There is so much more than adding up the amount of initiative per minute. How and WHEN you get it matter incredibly. Shortsighted and ignorant. That’s what this change is.

Renny.6571:

swinsk.6410:

Almost all wvw builds just got huge nerf with infusion of shadow tho…

Except base initiative regen was brought up 33%. It’s already been maths’d that it’s pretty much a great buff.. except for the cheese d/p permastealth guys.

You are forgetting Opportunist changes. Factor that in and you’ll see from a DD standpoint that not much is being changed at all, could be slightly better could be worse in terms of probability now that the trait is on a long CD, yes 5 seconds is long considering we can naturally dish out crits like no ones business.

Renny.6571:

swinsk.6410:

Almost all wvw builds just got huge nerf with infusion of shadow tho…

Except base initiative regen was brought up 33%. It’s already been maths’d that it’s pretty much a great buff.. except for the cheese d/p permastealth guys.

It’s a nerf because of Opportunist. Check your “maths’d” again.

Renny.6571:

swinsk.6410:

Almost all wvw builds just got huge nerf with infusion of shadow tho…

Except base initiative regen was brought up 33%. It’s already been maths’d that it’s pretty much a great buff.. except for the cheese d/p permastealth guys.

It’s been math’d that it’s a MASSSSSSIVE nerf

With 70% fury uptime, I’m usually at 90% crit chance, so I’m usually gaining 1 initiative every 2 seconds that I’m in combat from Opportunist, so that is a nerf of 1.5 initiative every 5 seconds. So they increased it by 1 every 4 seconds….Hrm, I’m still negative.

Any SINGLE initiative nerf is roughly equivalent to the gains on the innate regen increase. And there are what, 2 or 3 major nerfs and a couple minor ones?

Your Mathds are freaking screwed up.

I wonder what i will do with all that +0.33% init regen without any decent build to use lol.

ramorambo.6701:

I wonder what i will do with all that +0.33% init regen without any decent build to use lol.

Go into WvW and be the silent and dark protector who watches over battles from a distance. No need to fight, just relay information and be a good little thief. You may be a thief, but it’s not the mask, but what you do that defines you.

Opportunist and depending on the mechanics of shadow return are possibly the 2 biggest nerfs this patch.

If you cannot use shadow return while stunned because of the cast time, that’s a huge nerf and sword/dagger is pretty much dead.

Opportunist is pretty self explanatory and I don’t understand why it got nerfed so hard.

Wvw builds in general rely on chain stealthing, either it be CnD or BP+HS… Otherwise you die in like 2 hits if you can’t confuse the enemy.

Good bye thief in wvw IMO.

In tpvp they will still be able to run d/p burst build imo.

liefbread.9513:

Tyler Chapman.1832:

Oghier.7419:

D/D didn’t get nerfed. Increasing base initiative gain by 33% is a pretty big deal.

It’s more than a big deal. It’s a MASSSSSSSSSIVE buff to all thief specs.

All thief specs that don’t use initiative regen* (so… not S/P or P/P)

:)

Or Vigor/Acrobatics.

LoneWolfie.1852:

Out of all the professions right now, the thief thread discussing the patch changes has the least amount of people in it. Pretty much proves the thief players have left the forums (or probably the game.). When dec 10 comes in, I bet half of the thieves are going to reroll or leave the game. The rest will just play for the sake of playing the “thief” profession.

Thanks for… the nothing much you did for thieves. It was a fun ride when some of the imba things were around.

Already re-rolled months ago when I saw the steady and sure continual obliteration of infiltrator’s strike/shadow return. I knew it was only a matter of time before Anet destroyed one of the most beautiful play styles in the game, patch by patch.

Sigh

I though that everyone would be absolutely thrilled to get a +33% boost on the Initiative-reg.

Apparently, the attitude on this Thief forum is little else but pessimistic and vile.

Sure they “nerfed” Initiative-gain from Traits, but that’s fairly well balanced out by the initial initiative regeneration increase!

And the Vigor nerf was seen by other Professions, but now we’ve it easier to use evades from out Weapon skills!

Phadde.7362:

Sigh

I though that everyone would be absolutely thrilled to get a +33% boost on the Initiative-reg.

Apparently, the attitude on this Thief forum is little else but pessimistic and vile.

Sure they “nerfed” Initiative-gain from Traits, but that’s fairly well balanced out by the initial initiative regeneration increase!

And the Vigor nerf was seen by other Professions, but now we’ve it easier to use evades from out Weapon skills!

It’s not a 33% boost to any build that uses Opportunist. So…pretty much EVERY competitive PvP build that exists out there, bar maybe one or two. You potentially end up with a lower pool than before…

And oh, was it? Was it really? Tell that to Mesmers, with Critical Infusion. 5 points in a critical damage/precision tree for permanent Vigor.

Phadde.7362:

Sigh

I though that everyone would be absolutely thrilled to get a +33% boost on the Initiative-reg.

Apparently, the attitude on this Thief forum is little else but pessimistic and vile.

Sure they “nerfed” Initiative-gain from Traits, but that’s fairly well balanced out by the initial initiative regeneration increase!

And the Vigor nerf was seen by other Professions, but now we’ve it easier to use evades from out Weapon skills!

Say that to P/P builds. RIP in peace

Ghostwolf.9863:

D/P combined with blinding powder, I believe still will be just as strong. Just without permastealth.

What people are basically complaining about with D/P is that they will be mostly on par with D/D. The difference is down to the stealth mechanism for each build. D/P is two part (BP/HS) and costs more (3 init more) but it doesn’t require a target and its stealth can be stacked. D/D stealth is cheaper, does damage but requires a melee hit which is dicey against a quality opponent.

IMO, fair trade. Currently D/P is clearly more powerful since they can recoup all their init costs for stealth quickly and in almost complete safety.

Auesis.7301:

It’s not a 33% boost to any build that uses Opportunist. So…pretty much EVERY competitive PvP build that exists out there, bar maybe one or two. You potentially end up with a lower pool than before…

Opportunist is still good and possibly better overall regen for most thief builds when the new regen rate hits. Caution math ahead:

At 1 attack per second and a crit every .75 attacks over 15s

Old: 15 * .75 = 11.25 crits over 15s. 30%/1s cooldown = 3.375 init regen
New: 15 * .75 = 11.25 crits over 15s. 50%/5s cooldown = 3 init regen

Now add in the old/new init regens and we come nearly equal numbers. If thieves attack slower than 1 per second, the New system is likely more favorable. Only if a thief can attack faster than 1 per second or attacks are significantly slower than 5s each does the old system really out shine the new.

Straegen, your math might be true about dagger builds. Now do the math about S/P PW thieves and P/P Unload thieves. Woops, what happened?

Tyler Chapman.1832:

Oghier.7419:

D/D didn’t get nerfed. Increasing base initiative gain by 33% is a pretty big deal.

It’s more than a big deal. It’s a MASSSSSSSSSIVE buff to all thief specs.

33% of WHAT base? Because I guarantee this will not be a noticeable change for the build that uses the MOST Int in the game

Oh, wait you’re nerfing Sword Thieves.

Zacchary.6183:

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand this thread could have been avoided if the developers actually played the thief.

You know that’s a funny point. Throughout WvW this past year I have yet to see one of their ArenaNet employees out in WvW with a Thief. Just makes me laugh, and proves more points.

Phadde.7362:

Sigh

I though that everyone would be absolutely thrilled to get a +33% boost on the Initiative-reg.

Apparently, the attitude on this Thief forum is little else but pessimistic and vile.

Sure they “nerfed” Initiative-gain from Traits, but that’s fairly well balanced out by the initial initiative regeneration increase!

And the Vigor nerf was seen by other Professions, but now we’ve it easier to use evades from out Weapon skills!

Those of us that see this as a complaint is because 33% within GW2 is basically a .033%. It’s not straight up 33%, it’s a small portion off of another baseline number (one we don’t have).

You won’t see a significant change from this at all. Maybe in long PVE boss fights, but you’re not going to see a single difference in a PVP situation.

Zacchary.6183:

Dodging and stealth are a thief’s only form of survivability. So much as breathing on it will produce MASSSSSSSSSSSIVE changes.

^^pretty much thief

thieves entire survival is based on it, just look at traits

i am fine with nerfing perma stealth and s/d dodge but they could have buffed base survival a bit in exchange

let’s say they would so something similar to other classes like necros not being able to switch form while stunned or mesmers producing less clones and have longer CD on stealth spells… suddenly it is not just minor change eh?

Crawford.4135:

Zacchary.6183:

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand this thread could have been avoided if the developers actually played the thief.

You know that’s a funny point. Throughout WvW this past year I have yet to see one of their ArenaNet employees out in WvW with a Thief. Just makes me laugh, and proves more points.

they are too busy plaiyng warriors…-_-

Tyler thieves don’t mean to offend, we are just extremely tired of being blindsided by horribads and almost guaranteed nerfs to this profession. What you are experiencing is our sigh of relief because we hoped for months now that a dev would get on here to talk about the state of the thief.

Inside we are actually giddy that we got 2 red posts in one week and we hope to get more (as well as some positive changes).

Except the red names came in and state things that were internally inconsistent. And that worries me more than no red names at all.

Pavel.8531:

Straegen, your math might be true about dagger builds. Now do the math about S/P PW thieves and P/P Unload thieves. Woops, what happened?

What happened… sword has roughly the same attack speeds as Dagger so Opportunist comes out about even. Pistol has slower attacks so it probably comes out a hair better with the changes. What is lost from Opportunist is gained in the init regen.

All the QQ on Opportunist at least so far looks to be unfounded.