Guild Wars 2

How are we going to cope with all of this? How are we supposed to cope with all those changes?

I keep asking the dev what is his vision of the Thief because all those elite spec are clearly shutting us down and so idk what to expect anymore.

At first we had the occasinal Sic ’Em or Lock on we dealt it.
Then we got the “wow Rev with reveal, hm i can deal with them.”
After, we get Berserker Taunt “Not bad.. not bad. This one i can take care of it.”
Later we get the Scrapper " …. what?"

There is one more reveal left guys and I can tell the Druid is going to tear us to pieces.

I was expecting diversity with those specs, but when HoT comes out: we are all going to be playing Daredevil with Escapist’s Absolution. Landing a Stealth attack will be reserved only for the skillful of the skillful.

Shadow Arts is getting torn apart as we speak, since 90% of those traits are based of stealth, and RIP Acro. We got.. 2-3 traits available now. The way this is going, our D/P will be invalid for competition.

Thief’s most crucial/popular skill known as Shadow Refuge is now obsolete thanks to all those counters. I don’t want to revert to using gorrilla forums tactics and go to a Engi’s, Rev’s, Necro’s forum, asking for nerfs like they did for us. That’s just low and I ain’t about that life.

What is going on? I just started World completion on my second thief, but the future doesn’t look so bright at all.

We need a straightfoward, upfront answer.

Do you expect all veteran players to start merging towards Elite specialization?

Please devs, we need to know what is the overall vision of this profession.

The Devs have obviously gone wild with their imagination when it comes to these new specs (Well, maybe not with Daredevil, but w/e, we’re long past complaining about what we got and now onto the plane of jealously at what other professions got).

Someone in the balancing department has obviously said out loud to the room:

“How do we help this Elite Spec deal with Thieves or Stealth in general”,

and someone cried back:

“AOE 900 RANGE, 6 SECOND REVEAL WITH A 20 SECOND COOLDOWN”.

Then Steve in the corner yelled: “Yeah, kitten Shadow Refuge”.

With the Devs “letting their hairdown” when it comes to making these elite specs has caused them to overlook a lot of simple things such as how a Thief can counter this.

I can foresee none Thief players saying “You can counter it! Just teleport away and dodge roll or whatever you Overpowered Heathen kitteny-Thief kitten do”.

What doesn’t shock me is the amount of knowledge none-thief players have of Thief. I had the “pleasure” of talking to a Mesmer main of 3 whole years who plays nothing but PU and claims it’s perfectly balanced, calling Thieves OP because (and I quote):

“You guys are OP cause of that Trait you have which auto-stealths you whenever you get CC’d by any skill”.

If this trait exists then whose kitten do I have to suck to activate it?

Kocoff.7582:

That’s just low and I ain’t about that life.

Gotta be about that #Thuglyfe
Gotta roll deep, no matter how bad it gets.

Never give up, gangsta

Thief is fine, obviously.

Bottom of barrel is where we belong.

l2p.

does reveal work on mes?

We should rise all together and go play anything else since this kitten ends once and for all.
I hope Anet will fail hard with hot and this game will die sooner after.

Black Frog.9274:

does reveal work on mes?

It won’t drag them down but yes it works vs them. May I point out that devs buffed PU?

The funny thing about this is that, while Karl is concern about balance (not letting Thief be overpowered — which I support), other Devs went wild with their profession development and just letting it all out of control.

I think Karl and his team need to loosen up also and let the Thief off the leash — I mean just open your eyes and look around you. The Thief profession is suffocating.

“Let it go, let it go
Turn away and slam the door
I don’t care what they’re going to say
Let the storm rage on”

you forgot engineer: lock on AND analyze

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The funny thing about this is that, while Karl is concern about balance (not letting Thief be overpowered — which I support), other Devs went wild with their profession development and just letting it all out of control.

I think Karl and his team need to loosen up also and let the Thief off the leash — I mean just open your eyes and look around you. The Thief profession is suffocating.

“Let it go, let it go
Turn away and slam the door
I don’t care what they’re going to say
Let the storm rage on”

Give us burn and confusion

Black Frog.9274:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The funny thing about this is that, while Karl is concern about balance (not letting Thief be overpowered — which I support), other Devs went wild with their profession development and just letting it all out of control.

I think Karl and his team need to loosen up also and let the Thief off the leash — I mean just open your eyes and look around you. The Thief profession is suffocating.

“Let it go, let it go
Turn away and slam the door
I don’t care what they’re going to say
Let the storm rage on”

Give us burn and confusion

For starter, Thief skills should not grant reveal. Let other profession’s skill apply reveal, we shouldn’t be applying it to ourselves. Thus, backstabbing will not reveal so we can get back to stealth right away (i.e. BS → CnD →BS). If they want to counter that, then they could use their anti-stealth skills.

What to say, Great!
Stealth shouldn’t exist in pvp anyway

There is no reason for reveal to be 4 sec anymore in spvp anymore with these change. Buff shadows embrace, let me have cloaked in shadows with Shadow’s Rejuvenation together again. Make my stealth worth it to have if people are going to reveal me for long periods of time.

I’m very much of the ‘wait-and-see’ persuasion regarding things like this, but even I’m getting a little nervous after the latest reveal.

The Dev’s seem dead-set on adding as many stealth ‘counters’ as they can into this expansion in an effort to curtail the apparent abuse of stealth in PvP/WvW. The problem I see is that stealth (currently) is really the only way for a thief to have any form of sustain in combat, without stealth and the Shadow Arts line currently we are practically nothing more then a Really squishy warrior with shadow-step skills.

We really don’t need to stealth for very long to use offensive abilities (maybe 1-2 seconds to get off a back-stab etc..) the main reason for a thief to stay in stealth for a longer duration is mainly defensive such as clearing conditions, a tactical retreat or to regen some small amount of health though the SA grand master.

Yes we have lines like Acrobatics (eww) and soon Daredevil that allow for a more evasive play-style but all these stealth counters almost seem to force us into running them to even 1v1 in HoT and it’s not like dodging is a unique defense for the thief anyways.

With more reveals being added to the game with longer duration’s the time we spend outside of stealth will definitely increase (not that I mind that so much) the main problem with this is we have no passive defenses to rely on like almost all other classes such as high health/armor, protection, water fields/regen, block, invulnerability, resistance etc.. without stealth and things such as those it will become much more difficult to fight many classes.

A 900 range; 6 second reveal on a 20 second CD almost seems like a direct slap to the thief from a class that was already very strong against us to begin with. Not sure how many engineers will run this but if they do they will not only be able to directly and easily counter our Shadow Refuge a 60 sec CD, with a 20 seconds one, but they will also be able to reveal us in a 360 degree area anywhere within our limited 900 range attack zone.

Please don’t read this as a complaint but more as concern over the narrowing options this already fragile class has for defense in the future.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The funny thing about this is that, while Karl is concern about balance _(not letting Thief be overpowered — which I support)

Nail on the head, but you cant blame him, because the moment thief is competent people will start crying

just accept it. Maybe if we try hard enough we’ll get nerfed again.

At first we had the occasinal Sic ’Em or Lock on we dealt it.
Then we got the “wow Rev with reveal, hm i can deal with them.”
After, we get Berserker Taunt “Not bad.. not bad. This one i can take care of it.”
Later we get the Scrapper " …. what?"

There is one more reveal left guys and I can tell the Druid is going to tear us to pieces.

Druid heal skill spoiler: Kills all Thieves within 2400 range. 5s CD.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The funny thing about this is that, while Karl is concern about balance _(not letting Thief be overpowered — which I support)

Nail on the head, but you cant blame him, because the moment thief is competent people will start crying

just accept it. Maybe if we try hard enough we’ll get nerfed again.

What’s left for them to nerf ?

Well, the Thief FAQ was/is true:

Tarkan.5609:

…

• Which professions do Thieves fear?
  Any class with one A inside.
  - WArrior
  - RevenAnt
  - GuArdian
  - RAnger
  - Angineer
  - NecromAncer
  - ElementAlist
  - MesmA

…

MrDire.6235:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The funny thing about this is that, while Karl is concern about balance _(not letting Thief be overpowered — which I support)

Nail on the head, but you cant blame him, because the moment thief is competent people will start crying

just accept it. Maybe if we try hard enough we’ll get nerfed again.

What’s left for them to nerf ?

SB #5…(drops mic)

MrDire.6235:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The funny thing about this is that, while Karl is concern about balance _(not letting Thief be overpowered — which I support)

Nail on the head, but you cant blame him, because the moment thief is competent people will start crying

just accept it. Maybe if we try hard enough we’ll get nerfed again.

What’s left for them to nerf ?

Don’t tempt the Nerf Bat, for it shall strike fierce and hard against us like it has done many times before.

Sagat.3285:

MrDire.6235:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The funny thing about this is that, while Karl is concern about balance _(not letting Thief be overpowered — which I support)

Nail on the head, but you cant blame him, because the moment thief is competent people will start crying

just accept it. Maybe if we try hard enough we’ll get nerfed again.

What’s left for them to nerf ?

SB #5…(drops mic)

There still:

Venoms, traps, crafting speed (in stealth), HS, ..

Man the list can go on…

Well … seems like I was wrong… (inb4 all these actually do get nerfed come next patch)

Zero Day.2594:

Sagat.3285:

MrDire.6235:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The funny thing about this is that, while Karl is concern about balance _(not letting Thief be overpowered — which I support)

Nail on the head, but you cant blame him, because the moment thief is competent people will start crying

just accept it. Maybe if we try hard enough we’ll get nerfed again.

What’s left for them to nerf ?

SB #5…(drops mic)

There still:

Venoms, traps, crafting speed (in stealth), HS, ..

Man the list can go on…

If of everything traps gets nerfed I need to start looking for another game faster before it spreads out. Playing russian roulette with balance is not a selling point and ironically they cater to new players well I guess they can just avoid thief.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Zero Day.2594:

Well, the Thief FAQ was/is true:

Tarkan.5609:

…

• Which professions do Thieves fear?
  Any class with one A inside.
  - WArrior
  - RevenAnt
  - GuArdian
  - RAnger
  - Angineer
  - NecromAncer
  - ElementAlist
  - MesmA

…

mesmer?

Mesma*, gotta spell it like ya say it.

Just let it go.

Refill Initiatives on successful block using BD.

Add AoE blind on Vault.

Add slow on Weakening Charge.

Make Debilitating Arc actually debilitating the targets by applying Cripple and Torment on them.

Make the Elite DD Skill turn the Thief invulnerable while doing the combo sequence.

3rd staff auto-attack not only block projectiles but also melee attacks.

DD traits heal and cleanse on dodge, not on evade.

Pulmonary Impact and Mug can crit.

Feline Grace restored.

“It’s funny how some distance makes everything seem small
And the fears that once controlled me can’t get to me at all
It’s time to see what I can do
To test the limits and break through
No right, no wrong, no rules for me
I’m free”

what i would love to see more than anything, from gw1 crit defenses…… imean just give us a bone DX
/qq

in all seriousness, thief’s damage is still really nice, its now just damage with an added 1000APM vs other classes, thats all >_>

its very obvious they dont even talk to eachother they dont even know what the other guy is doing with the other class elite and theif gets useless staff while everybody else gets reveal.

I have no desire to use Dagger main hand once HoT comes out. There’s too much stealth counterplay that’s going to exist. When your defense and part of your offense is hard countered, it’s time to drop that concept.

The Shadow Arts trait line, blinding powder, smoke fields, and shadow refuge are all going to be wasted resources because of reveal and taunt being meta.

Dagger relying heavily on backstab damage and avoiding or recovering from damage with stealth means it’s just going to be a bad weapon. The only option that makes sense to me is Sword.

If you’re going to play a sword style thief though, you may as well play Revenant, because it can +1 just as well, free roam almost as well, is more durable, and has more support in a team fight. The only thing you miss out on is the stab stealing interrupt.

I hate to be that guy, but…

I think this reveal stuff is meant for the new stealthing enemies. Not all of it is aimed at the thief/mesmer.

I don’t think this would be as big of a problem if the acro line wasn’t so horrible.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I hate to be that guy, but…

I think this reveal stuff is meant for the new stealthing enemies. Not all of it is aimed at the thief/mesmer.

I don’t think this would be as big of a problem if the acro line wasn’t so horrible.

Actually, it might very well be.
The problem is, we’re becoming on the same level as those stealthing mobs… Like there’s no defensive compensation for the nerfs.

And quite frankly, I wouldn’t hold my breath, as history has shown that it takes the a REALLY long time to fix something or implement something that’s much wanted – Example: scavanger-hunt for precursors (+ they half-as*ed one partial fix that they called the Ascended gear.)

To all thieves that still have to buy HoT. DON’T BUY IT
To the others, let’s ask all for a refund.
Let’s see if Devs understand our frustation.
I feel like I have blindly paid for something only for discovering later I had just paid for my Death.

Kolly.9872:

To all thieves that still have to buy HoT. DON’T BUY IT
To the others, let’s ask all for a refund.
Let’s see if Devs understand our frustation.
I feel like I have blindly paid for something only for discovering later I had just paid for my Death.

Which, if payed by credit card, and they don’t refund you politely, can – you have to bu*lsh*t a bit – warrant you a refund via the credit card company.

dont be so stealth meta… seriously theory craft with traits and utility and you’ll be surprised

Morpid.3659:

dont be so stealth meta… seriously theory craft with traits and utility and you’ll be surprised

It’s not like I only want to play with stealth. I even always preferred S/D or S/P over D/P but we still have few options and why for the hell we should be forced to use pnly 1 build cos of continuod nerfs?

I am getting kind of bummed. My main, the one with World Completion, is a Thief, and the DD, while interesting, is a long way from exciting at this point. My secondary main, the one I ran a lot of s2 on, is a Guardian, and I have ZERO interest in the Dragon Hunter spec for him. My favorite specs so far are the Reaper and the Herald, which means I’d either need to power level a Revenant right away just to catch up, or put my Necro back into action (I mostly keep her in LA these days). I also really like the Scrapper so far, so my Engi is likely getting back into things, and maybe also my Ele. I’m really sad about the Daredevil though.

Kolly.9872:

To all thieves that still have to buy HoT. DON’T BUY IT
To the others, let’s ask all for a refund.
Let’s see if Devs understand our frustation.
I feel like I have blindly paid for something only for discovering later I had just paid for my Death.

I am srsly thinking about it….. i feel scammed by xpac. It is pretty obvious that devs decided to make thief playing experience as frustrating as possible. I don’t want my money used to pay griefers because what they are doing right now is pure form of griefing.

Kolly.9872:

To all thieves that still have to buy HoT. DON’T BUY IT
To the others, let’s ask all for a refund.
Let’s see if Devs understand our frustation.
I feel like I have blindly paid for something only for discovering later I had just paid for my Death.

I am seriously quitting this game. I am going to log a ticket for refund.

Yup… After playing Daredevil I concluded stealth would still be the mechanic that keeps Thieves competitive and finally made my “Quip”. Imagine my frustration after the Engineer Elite Specialization reveal…

Granting Reveal to all classes look nothing more than a VERY lazy attempt to help players deal with a class they don’t fully understand. Seeing as no Thief was given ANY help to counter other class mechanics, its just sad…

Reveal is just a very unfortunate, bad game design thrown around to avoid actual effort to address the real problems with the mechanic (not that it has many…).

bliss.4305:

Yup… After playing Daredevil I concluded stealth would still be the mechanic that keeps Thieves competitive and finally made my “Quip”. Imagine my frustration after the Engineer Elite Specialization reveal…

Granting Reveal to all classes look nothing more than a VERY lazy attempt to help players deal with a class they don’t fully understand. Seeing as no Thief was given ANY help to counter other class mechanics, its just sad…

Reveal is just a very unfortunate, bad game design thrown around to avoid actual effort to address the real problems with the mechanic (not that it has many…).

Thieves, the class described as experts at stealth have no counters to stealth .

bliss.4305:

Yup… After playing Daredevil I concluded stealth would still be the mechanic that keeps Thieves competitive and finally made my “Quip”. Imagine my frustration after the Engineer Elite Specialization reveal…

Granting Reveal to all classes look nothing more than a VERY lazy attempt to help players deal with a class they don’t fully understand. Seeing as no Thief was given ANY help to counter other class mechanics, its just sad…

Reveal is just a very unfortunate, bad game design thrown around to avoid actual effort to address the real problems with the mechanic (not that it has many…).

A lot of truth this player just mentioned guys. Please read.

Reveal is badly thought out, and is lazy. I think the only countermeasure to this, is a serious surge in attack power, to the point where being reveal or not doesn’t complete negate your damage with Stealth Attacks.

What other counters to Reveal do you guys have in mind? PLease note: reveal wouldn’t be such an issue if our core traits were impeccable.

babazhook.6805:

bliss.4305:

Yup… After playing Daredevil I concluded stealth would still be the mechanic that keeps Thieves competitive and finally made my “Quip”. Imagine my frustration after the Engineer Elite Specialization reveal…

Granting Reveal to all classes look nothing more than a VERY lazy attempt to help players deal with a class they don’t fully understand. Seeing as no Thief was given ANY help to counter other class mechanics, its just sad…

Reveal is just a very unfortunate, bad game design thrown around to avoid actual effort to address the real problems with the mechanic (not that it has many…).

Thieves, the class described as experts at stealth have no counters to stealth .

We actually have them. We learned to play with and against it.
I know, its easy to forget because that counter is so rare to be seen.
:P

I have no problem against stealth, even with no reveal skills. I have problems against anything else tho. Because as a thief I lack counters to burning or heavy condition spam, I have no counter to invulnerability and blocks. Stealth is easibly counterable.

Kocoff.7582:

bliss.4305:

Yup… After playing Daredevil I concluded stealth would still be the mechanic that keeps Thieves competitive and finally made my “Quip”. Imagine my frustration after the Engineer Elite Specialization reveal…

Granting Reveal to all classes look nothing more than a VERY lazy attempt to help players deal with a class they don’t fully understand. Seeing as no Thief was given ANY help to counter other class mechanics, its just sad…

Reveal is just a very unfortunate, bad game design thrown around to avoid actual effort to address the real problems with the mechanic (not that it has many…).

A lot of truth this player just mentioned guys. Please read.

Reveal is badly thought out, and is lazy. I think the only countermeasure to this, is a serious surge in attack power, to the point where being reveal or not doesn’t complete negate your damage with Stealth Attacks.

What other counters to Reveal do you guys have in mind? PLease note: reveal wouldn’t be such an issue if our core traits were impeccable.

The nerf-hammer? Its quiet powerful I heard.
I just can’t understand why they implemented so many reveals as hardcounters, while they said some time ago that they “don’t want hardcounters”.
I’m not even interested anymore in trailers or “reveals” (conent-balance-wise)
Because it can turn out completely different at release. Don’t get me wrong, I know that changes happen and HAVE to happen all the time. But why we weren’t even told that the healbuff on withdraw got canceled? It got to a point where the class could be deleted tomorrow. Just that no one would be surprised :/

Coronit.9432:

Kocoff.7582:

bliss.4305:

Yup… After playing Daredevil I concluded stealth would still be the mechanic that keeps Thieves competitive and finally made my “Quip”. Imagine my frustration after the Engineer Elite Specialization reveal…

Granting Reveal to all classes look nothing more than a VERY lazy attempt to help players deal with a class they don’t fully understand. Seeing as no Thief was given ANY help to counter other class mechanics, its just sad…

Reveal is just a very unfortunate, bad game design thrown around to avoid actual effort to address the real problems with the mechanic (not that it has many…).

A lot of truth this player just mentioned guys. Please read.

Reveal is badly thought out, and is lazy. I think the only countermeasure to this, is a serious surge in attack power, to the point where being reveal or not doesn’t complete negate your damage with Stealth Attacks.

What other counters to Reveal do you guys have in mind? PLease note: reveal wouldn’t be such an issue if our core traits were impeccable.

The nerf-hammer? Its quiet powerful I heard.
I just can’t understand why they implemented so many reveals as hardcounters, while they said some time ago that they “don’t want hardcounters”.
I’m not even interested anymore in trailers or “reveals” (conent-balance-wise)
Because it can turn out completely different at release. Don’t get me wrong, I know that changes happen and HAVE to happen all the time. But why we weren’t even told that the healbuff on withdraw got canceled? It got to a point where the class could be deleted tomorrow. Just that no one would be surprised :/

Well, maybe it’s better to delete it, remake it from scratch and bring it back with the next expansion…. What’s happening now is just sad.

Part of the issue is of course the seeming lack of communication between the DEVS responsible for each class. Class XXX lacks condition removal so lets give it more. meanwhile on class YYY “lets give this guy a skill that inhibits condition removal on class XXX”. Class XXX is now further behind then before.

I am almost expecting more weakness type skills wherein the endurance added to the DD just to give it an ability to survive in combat is taken away by some suite of other class skills like “900 range AOE skill that forces all classes to spend 3 times endurance for all dodges”

it should be clear to everyone why adding new professions and even traitlines can be a bad idea until the existing ones addressed first and can be a bad idea to add new traits skills that simply cancel out that all of balancing went on before with these hardcounters that attack the very core of those existing skills and traits.

I think we are going to be stuck in a cycle of years long balancing acts to get this fixed and when we finally get close the impetus will be there to add some new spec line or profession that will muck it all up again.

That said there is then the question. Would people prefer a game where all skills and traits finely balanced and WORK at the risk of the game becoming stagnant or would they prefer the new stuff to play with even if it destroys that balance and creates months and more of tuning to get right again?

babazhook.6805:

Part of the issue is of course the seeming lack of communication between the DEVS responsible for each class. Class XXX lacks condition removal so lets give it more. meanwhile on class YYY “lets give this guy a skill that inhibits condition removal on class XXX”. Class XXX is now further behind then before.

+1

It really looks as if they didn’t talk to each other at all.

Jana.6831:

babazhook.6805:

Part of the issue is of course the seeming lack of communication between the DEVS responsible for each class. Class XXX lacks condition removal so lets give it more. meanwhile on class YYY “lets give this guy a skill that inhibits condition removal on class XXX”. Class XXX is now further behind then before.

+1

It really looks as if they didn’t talk to each other at all.

But they do test it out on the same golems…
If that counts…

Also made a post:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/A-challenge-event-for-the-Devs/first

Please keep it more civil than on here… Maybe they could do something like that some day…

Zero Day.2594:

But they do test it out on the same golems…
If that counts…

You’re right, and golems have no condi remove – so it’s just fair to give thieves none as well.

But honestly, if you look at all the passive kitten applied to nearly every class – it really makes you wonder if they talked/thought this through.
Basically everybody is invincible – how should a pvp environement work with that?

I mean look at what they did with these stiff dashes,as if they almost want us to die faster..scrapper get shadow refuge and we get circus qualified elite spec