Guild Wars 2

Amante.8109:

PopeUrban.2578:

In GW1, when they designed assassin, they purposely did so without implementing stealth as a mechanic. Their reasoning? It was hell to balance. Assassins were still really good at being bursty hit and run characters with fun to play mechanics due to mobility and unique combo chains.

Assassins were awesomely designed, and what I thought I would be getting from Thief in GW2 originally. I would gladly sacrifice Shortbow #5 and every source of stealth if we could be a lot more like Assassins from GW1.

Yeah this ^^

For the Thief to move on and develop it needs to be less reliant on stealth… then it can get new more interesting mechanics.

Sagat.3285:

Maugetarr.6823:

How about we just change all of our “while in stealth” traits to “when you are revealed” instead. So SRej becomes “gain 1200 health and 2 initiative when you leave stealth or are revealed.” SE becomes “lose 2 conditions when you leave stealth or gain revealed.” The leaving stealth part is there so that if it expires naturally, you still gain benefit from it.

I’ve spoke on that a while ago on a decently big thread, coming from necro that would be bad you can receive infinite damage or conditions while revealed so no.

But while revealed you also lose access to SE, so it pretty much works out the same that way. Also, you could improve your cleansing by playing more agressively.

Honestly, outside sources of reveal should be changed to grant a boon that allows you to see stealthers in stead. Reveal should only be applied by attacking from stealth, as that was its original design, to prevent stealth spamming that would make you impossible to detect while still dealing good damage.

Insight: When affected by insight, you can see stealthed characters and monsters.

Sic ’em: You and your pet gain Insight for 10 seconds
Analyze: You gain Insight for 10 seconds
New engi toolbelt: You and up to 5 allies within 900 units gain Insight for 10 seconds.

There, fixed. It’s a logical counter to stealth that doesn’t shut down a trait line, and it can be countered as stealthers and their allies can see the boon, rip it, avoud the guy with the boon until it’s over, and otherwise actually have some counterplay

It’s also a better stealth counter as it affects your perception of all stealthed targets rather than a single stealther, meaning it’s much better against packs of stealth mobs in pvE or stealth blobs in pvp.

Maugetarr.6823:

Sagat.3285:

Maugetarr.6823:

How about we just change all of our “while in stealth” traits to “when you are revealed” instead. So SRej becomes “gain 1200 health and 2 initiative when you leave stealth or are revealed.” SE becomes “lose 2 conditions when you leave stealth or gain revealed.” The leaving stealth part is there so that if it expires naturally, you still gain benefit from it.

I’ve spoke on that a while ago on a decently big thread, coming from necro that would be bad you can receive infinite damage or conditions while revealed so no.

But while revealed you also lose access to SE, so it pretty much works out the same that way. Also, you could improve your cleansing by playing more agressively.

Thief needs a “rest period” in combat due to initiative going completely aggressive will get you killed. No weapon supports such style not even staff.

Edit: p/p doesn’t have that period sooo yeah

Apolo.5942:

Errr? dissengage when you see the pulse and re engage when revealed is gone?

Its not like the thief is lacking in the dissengaging/mobility deparment.

This guy… are you planning on disengaging every 20 seconds? That’s your plan mate?

Shadowstep is on a 50 second CD btw.

PopeUrban.2578:

Honestly, outside sources of reveal should be changed to grant a boon that allows you to see stealthers in stead. Reveal should only be applied by attacking from stealth, as that was its original design, to prevent stealth spamming that would make you impossible to detect while still dealing good damage.

Insight: When affected by insight, you can see stealthed characters and monsters.

Sic ’em: You and your pet gain Insight for 10 seconds
Analyze: You gain Insight for 10 seconds
New engi toolbelt: You and up to 5 allies within 900 units gain Insight for 10 seconds.

There, fixed. It’s a logical counter to stealth that doesn’t shut down a trait line, and it can be countered as stealthers and their allies can see the boon, rip it, avoud the guy with the boon until it’s over, and otherwise actually have some counterplay

It’s also a better stealth counter as it affects your perception of all stealthed targets rather than a single stealther, meaning it’s much better against packs of stealth mobs in pvE or stealth blobs in pvp.

I love that idea.GG. It should allow the sight stealthers as a watery, fluid, distortion of the landscape as we see in typical video games. This would solve the problem for sure.

Assassins were awesomely designed, and what I thought I would be getting from Thief in GW2 originally. I would gladly sacrifice Shortbow #5 and every source of stealth if we could be a lot more like Assassins from GW1.

They have that, it’s called a Revenant.

Ohoni.6057:

Assassins were awesomely designed, and what I thought I would be getting from Thief in GW2 originally. I would gladly sacrifice Shortbow #5 and every source of stealth if we could be a lot more like Assassins from GW1.

They have that, it’s called a Revenant.

Revenant is proof that the devs read the thief forum.

Appropriate?

Sagat.3285:

Ohoni.6057:

Assassins were awesomely designed, and what I thought I would be getting from Thief in GW2 originally. I would gladly sacrifice Shortbow #5 and every source of stealth if we could be a lot more like Assassins from GW1.

They have that, it’s called a Revenant.

Revenant is proof that the devs read the thief forum.

Appropriate?

They just might be mis-directing their changes to other classes…

Zero Day.2594:

They just might be mis-directing their changes to other classes…

All jokes aside, they kind of are. Scrapper is loaded with traits that a Thief would kill for, such as the Toughness GM. You could transplant several skills from Scrapper Hammer straight to Thief Staff with no changes and it’d be a massive improvement.

And then there’s Revenant’s Shiro stance and the Devastation line, which as someone else mentioned are essentially lifted from GW1 Assassin. Seems it made more sense ANet to give that to the new profession than the one that’s literally GW2’s version of Assassin…

meepeY.2867:

What really sucks is that good Engi’s are saying that they wont even take the Sneak Gyro. They’re happy with the Box Drop or the Elixer. Fair play if you think the Gyro isn’t great.

However, BAD Engi’s who struggle or dislike Thieves will take the Sneak Gyro and now they have the 1-button-press-go-kitten-yourself-anti-Thief ability. Now the bad Engi’s will be able to beat Thieves with another dumb thing that takes out the skill factor and keeps it to a “who’s build is better” orientation.

This is the best analysis of Sneak Gyro so far. I’ve played engi before, and the immediate conclusion I came to is that Sneak Gyro just isn’t worth it. The stealth is nice in theory, until the drone draws aggro and nukes everyone inside of it. Then you have the reveal skill. The first use will be really easy to bait, since newb Engis will pop it as soon as you vanish. The reveal is only dangerous when stealth is being used defensively, since when used for burst it just gives me 6 seconds of +200 power.

But on the practical side, what does the reveal get you? It is an advantage against thieves and mesmers… leaving your elite utility essentially useless against 7/9 classes. Having played both classes, I’d never take Sneak Gyro over the Supply Crate, since Supply Crate still wrecks thieves. It is a point and click area control that creates a lingering death zone, and the still itself is a potent stun. Best part is, Supply Crate is useful against every class.

This is one of the reasons why it is I think that the gyro is going to be meant for new PVE enemies. The drone just isn’t viable anywhere right now.

PopeUrban.2578:

Honestly, outside sources of reveal should be changed to grant a boon that allows you to see stealthers in stead. Reveal should only be applied by attacking from stealth, as that was its original design, to prevent stealth spamming that would make you impossible to detect while still dealing good damage.

Insight: When affected by insight, you can see stealthed characters and monsters.

Ok, but then stealthed characters won’t be able to tell easily whether they’re visible or not. And don’t say that Insight will apply a distinctive vision effect to characters under it, because GW2 is already an explosion of lights and colors during hectic fights and there’s basically no chance the thief will be able to notice this in time.

Revealed makes more sense. It’s much clearer to everyone involved what’s happening and it doesn’t involve an additional tell being crammed into the lightshow, which is infinitely more important than the original design intent of a given debuff.

Revealed isn’t any more readable than an insight buff.

There’s no visual tell for revealed, just a UI icon.

The point here is that revealed prevents stealth which makes the thief super vulnerable and locks out his stealth traits

A boon based ‘detect stealth’ approach in stead allows those traits to continue to function, and makes “spotters” more balanced. They don’t reveal you for all to see, they’d need to communicate to teammates where you are.

Reveal was a mechanic originally designed to prevent stealth>damage>stealth spam.

The heart of the SA traits are designed around our access to stealth, and our stealth is designed around as system of short durations and an internal global cooldown in the form of revealed

Revealed doesn’t make more sense within the context of theif design, or stealth design in general. Revealed as an anti-stealth mechanic has an extremely limited effect that people can’t use in a preparatory manner, which doesn’t make it a stealth counter that’s fun to use, only as a reactive panic button that you hit because you happen to think someone is around.

It’s imprecise, unweildy to use, and overall just plain plays worse for both the stealther and the scout.

Never really saw reveal as a shut down a class completely I kind of look at this toolbelt as more of a chance at shutting down thief or mesmer burst if used at the right time. Could just be because I play defensively and wait for them too blow cds before I blow them up.

As an Engineer-main player… I agree. I want something else instead of this :P

Also I rather keep toolbelt skill but shadow refuge > sneak gyro due to gyro being aggro magnet.

The gyro, however, remains visible and can be destroyed.

As for the reveal pulse, mesmer and thief had really had it good with so much stealth and almost zero counterplay to it – it was time some counterplay became available. Unfortunately its skilled based and really just exists on one class, but in a way that’s good for you guys. Engineer has the only reliable anti stealth tools (though rangers hvae some sorta kinda abilities)

What they should really do is have some kind of counterplay built into the game itself, but not something that easily voids the stealth either. But I doubt that will happen anytime soon.

Morfedel.4165:

The gyro, however, remains visible and can be destroyed.

As for the reveal pulse, mesmer and thief had really had it good with so much stealth and almost zero counterplay to it – it was time some counterplay became available. Unfortunately its skilled based and really just exists on one class, but in a way that’s good for you guys. Engineer has the only reliable anti stealth tools (though rangers hvae some sorta kinda abilities)

What they should really do is have some kind of counterplay built into the game itself, but not something that easily voids the stealth either. But I doubt that will happen anytime soon.

First of all, you have got to stop trying to bring mesmers into this. Mesmers aren’t even CLOSE to being as dependent on stealth as thieves are. I could go into much greater detail on this but I already have in this thread. Go read it if you’re genuinely curious.

Secondly, what exactly do you mean by “thieves have it good”? Thieves were overpowered for a brief point at the beginning of the game, but a series of increasingly harsh nerfs have brought them down to the point where they aren’t a threat against any competent player. Case in point: see the engineers in this thread saying they won’t bother bringing the sneak gyro, even though it 100% guarantees a win against a thief, even one significantly more skilled than you, because thieves aren’t a high priority class. This is a HUGE problem.

Finally, no counterplay? What need is there for counterplay? A stealthed thief has counterplayed himself. Here are a list of things a stealthed thief is NOT doing:

- damage
- pressure
- capping a node

What they are doing is regenerating some miniscule amounts of health, dropping a condition or two, an extra point of initiative.

In the meantime you can be doing whatever the kitten you want to be doing with no concern for the thief whatsoever. As for your no counterplay nonsense, here are some things you can do while you finish capping/neutralizing the node.

- put up a block or blind to prevent the thief opener from doing any damage.
- keep mobile – assuming D/P which is the only actual viable thief build, your goal is to keep the thief from getting behind you… which is trivial to accomplish. Just twirl in circles or spam the about-face button and you’ve got a 50-50 shot of cutting his opener damage in HALF.

Remember the thief just dumped 9 initiative – a whopping 75% of his resource bar, just to get in stealth. All he’ll be able to do is open on you and then be useless. And he won’t be able to stealth again any time soon. Oh did he shadow refuge? He just told you exactly where he is. Continue beating on him or just casually stroll away. Oh did he bring cloak and dagger? He ACTUALLY made a conscious decision to use offhand dagger? lolol. Laugh at him and kite him all day long. If you mess up and he gets in melee range just dodge roll the 10 year animation on C&D.

All kinds of counter play. This toolbelt skill is NOT counterplay. Detection Pulse is a game-over iWin button against thieves. Which engineers won’t even bother taking because why would they? Thieves already aren’t a threat. The stealth aspect of the gyro is just a slap in the face. “hey guys, we know that we’re giving engineers a free iWin vs thieves button on their toolbelt, so we thought we’d really rub it in by also giving them the best group utility and longest lasting stealth skill in the game.” Simply outrageous.

“Just kill the gyro” has got to be one of the stupidest responses I have seen in this thread. Good job thief. You just wasted a bunch of initiative and your opener on a pet. Element of surprise? Completely gone. Now you’re revealed for 10 seconds (4 from self reveal, 6 from detection pulse) with an engineer (plus up to 4 other surprise guests!) are beating on you. Oh sorry, did I say beating on you? That was wrong. They are finishing you because you downed way before you even got the gyro to half health.

Also while the drone does last for 30 seconds (11 pulses), keep in mind each pulse is 4 seconds – adding insult to energy, thief default stealth durations are 3 seconds – which means that there is a window of up to FOURTEEN SECONDS where the party is stealthed with no drone to destroy – during which time the drone is in fact recharging its 30 second cooldown. I put fourteen seconds in all caps because that is actually 1 second short of the duration of a full 5 pulse shadow refuge, for which we give up an entire utility slot and a 60 second cooldown.

Kitten outrageous.

wolfpaq.7354:

First of all, you have got to stop trying to bring mesmers into this. Mesmers aren’t even CLOSE to being as dependent on stealth as thieves are.

Secondly, what exactly do you mean by “thieves have it good”? Thieves were overpowered for a brief point at the beginning of the game, but a series of increasingly harsh nerfs have brought them down to the point where they aren’t a threat against any competent player. Case in point: see the engineers in this thread saying they won’t bother bringing the sneak gyro, even though it 100% guarantees a win against a thief, even one significantly more skilled than you, because thieves aren’t a high priority class. This is a HUGE problem.

Finally, no counterplay? What need is there for counterplay? A stealthed thief has counterplayed himself. Here are a list of things a stealthed thief is NOT doing:

….
……

All kinds of counter play. This toolbelt skill is NOT counterplay. Detection Pulse is a game-over iWin button against thieves. Which engineers won’t even bother taking because why would they? Thieves already aren’t a threat. The stealth aspect of the gyro is just a slap in the face. “hey guys, we know that we’re giving engineers a free iWin vs thieves button on their toolbelt, so we thought we’d really rub it in by also giving them the best group utility and longest lasting stealth skill in the game.” Simply outrageous.

“Just kill the gyro” has got to be one of the stupidest responses I have seen in this thread. Good job thief. You just wasted a bunch of initiative and your opener on a pet. Element of surprise? Completely gone. Now you’re revealed for 10 seconds (4 from self reveal, 6 from detection pulse) with an engineer (plus up to 4 other surprise guests!) are beating on you. Oh sorry, did I say beating on you? That was wrong. They are finishing you because you downed way before you even got the gyro to half health.

… I put fourteen seconds in all caps because that is actually 1 second short of the duration of a full 5 pulse shadow refuge, for which we give up an entire utility slot and a 60 second cooldown.

Kitten outrageous.

So many things wrong here.

1) Mesmers stealth too. That stealth needs counters too. Just cause you dont think they need stealth and this doesnt hurt them “as much”, doesnt remove the need to counter what they can do.

2) You cant have it both ways. If thieves are so weak against engi’s in 1v1 that no one will slot this just to beat them, the skill is not problem because it wont be taken and you are freaking out over nothing. No one wants an aoe reveal over Elixir X or Supply drop or Mortar, those are WAY better against everyone including thieves for their respective game modes.

3) You dont need to burn initiative to kill the gyro, you can kill it with autos or even dagger5 (if that ever comes back). if the issue is “kitten i burned init to stealth and then the engi stealthed, i have to either camp stealth or open on the gyro”, hey, good for the engi. well played. he burned an elite skill to counter a backstab.

4) Everything needs counterplay. Stealth needs counterplay, because stealth without counterplay means the victim cant retaliate and that is a bad gaming experience for everyone whose not a thief or mesmer. That you cant see that really shows a lack of perspective outside this class. Reveal should be in the game, and probably more prevalent (i think the Revenant zerg is going to be your real issue). That said, revealed needs counterplay too, and it should count as a condition, or have stacks like stability that absorb X-seconds of stealth, some way you could beat it if you felt like burning the resources.

5) You put 14 in all caps because… an engineer elite skill is better than a thief utility skill, as it kitten well should be?

Look at the bigger picture:
Revenants are going to be the most popular class in the game, hands down, and every single one will run Glint (Reveal) because its their strongest traitline by nearly 300% of every other line. They are going to be EVERYWHERE, and they are going to be all over you. Engineers are the least played class in the game, and this elite is weaker than ALL of their other elites for EVERY game mode. Its a niche elite. After the first two weeks it will only see use when its time to clear out a keep.

Do Engineers run Utility goggles for reveal on a 25sec cd that they’ve had access to for years? No. Cuz its bad. Do they run Lock On for reveal that theyve had access to for months? No. Cuz its bad. Stealth gyro is not as good as other engi elites, and wont see real play.

Spend your energy whining about the people that will actually run reveal: Revenants. ALL OF THEM.

Raven.9603:

So many things wrong here.

Yeah, like just about everything you’re saying. Judging by both your rhetoric and your post history, you don’t even play Thief, so you might want to listen to someone who does telling you in detail what its genuine weaknesses are.

Or you could just be like every other non-Thief player that wanders into our forum (other than ronpierce) and spew uninformed garbage all day. Why not? It worked to get Thieves nerfed up to this point, so people might as well keep doing it. Don’t stop until the profession is completely unplayable… Thief still has a few decent tricks despite being among the two weakest professions in the game. Can’t have that, can we?

“pvppvppvppvppvppvppvppvppvppvppvppvppvppvppvppvppvppvppvppvppvppvppvppvppvppvppvppvppvppvppvppvppvppvppvppvppvppvppvp”
Uh, yeah, hi.
Does anyone not realize that this makes thief even more worthless in any pve situation more than before?
Why have a thief for TA, CM, Arah, etc when you can have an engineer and stealth on easy mode?

With the Herald’s Facet of Nature giving a 50% boon time increase would this make it a total of 44s + 22s = 66 seconds of stealth? i.e. perma stealth with a Herald present?

Stealth is not a boon, its an effect like superspeed, so facet of nature doesn’t affect it.

Bryzy.2719:

With the Herald’s Facet of Nature giving a 50% boon time increase would this make it a total of 44s + 22s = 66 seconds of stealth? i.e. perma stealth with a Herald present?

Stealth is not your typical boon and as such the duration can’t be altered with “boon enhancing” methods.

I see

I didn’t read a lot of the things, but I am just going to start initiating a mini topic off of this one, and how to combat these kids.

If I see a Scrapper Gyro and i am my current S/D – SB set, I would Steal+ C&D, switch to SB, then spam 2s and prepare a shadowstep for extraction. As this point, the fight should revert back to the expect fight.

Of course, there is a chance that there were about 3-5 people inside that cloaking field. The Thief’s gameplay becomes more and more of a gamble with HoT.

meepeY.2867:

What really sucks is that good Engi’s are saying that they wont even take the Sneak Gyro. They’re happy with the Box Drop or the Elixer. Fair play if you think the Gyro isn’t great.

However, BAD Engi’s who struggle or dislike Thieves will take the Sneak Gyro and now they have the 1-button-press-go-kitten-yourself-anti-Thief ability. Now the bad Engi’s will be able to beat Thieves with another dumb thing that takes out the skill factor and keeps it to a “who’s build is better” orientation.

The skill ceiling keeps getting lower and lower for other Professions where as the bar of requirement for Thieves gets higher and higher. We slowly become a class which is either 100% Glass Cannon so we can 1 shot on a luck based percentage outcome, some form of Trap Bunker Condi or going to the cheesiest of builds in the “Ghost Thief” build (No idea what the “Ghost Thief” is? Click here, sorry for the blatant stream plug).

yeah…. removing damage from the traps allowed this kind of bs. Which is crazy, since Anet added small damage to choking gas so you can’t fire it from stealth on someone.

On ‘good’ engineers not ‘running the Sneak Gyro’, yeah… some won’t but… When lock on was added, so many said they wouldn’t run it, yet what did I see from engineers that were supposed to be good and in a few cases even said they wouldn’t run it? Yep, you got it, they traited it anyways.

Lunacy Solacio.6514:

meepeY.2867:

What really sucks is that good Engi’s are saying that they wont even take the Sneak Gyro. They’re happy with the Box Drop or the Elixer. Fair play if you think the Gyro isn’t great.

However, BAD Engi’s who struggle or dislike Thieves will take the Sneak Gyro and now they have the 1-button-press-go-kitten-yourself-anti-Thief ability. Now the bad Engi’s will be able to beat Thieves with another dumb thing that takes out the skill factor and keeps it to a “who’s build is better” orientation.

The skill ceiling keeps getting lower and lower for other Professions where as the bar of requirement for Thieves gets higher and higher. We slowly become a class which is either 100% Glass Cannon so we can 1 shot on a luck based percentage outcome, some form of Trap Bunker Condi or going to the cheesiest of builds in the “Ghost Thief” build (No idea what the “Ghost Thief” is? Click here, sorry for the blatant stream plug).

yeah…. removing damage from the traps allowed this kind of bs. Which is crazy, since Anet added small damage to choking gas so you can’t fire it from stealth on someone.

On ‘good’ engineers not ‘running the Sneak Gyro’, yeah… some won’t but… When lock on was added, so many said they wouldn’t run it, yet what did I see from engineers that were supposed to be good and in a few cases even said they wouldn’t run it? Yep, you got it, they traited it anyways.

Yep. Lock On is part of the Meta Engi’s Rifle Solider build.

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Engineer_-_Soldier_Rifle

I’m not a fan of how Lock On works, but its in a very fair spot in engi trait lines. They need to find another way to get swiftness if they want lock on, and its not always easy.

These days they get by with Elixir B, because HGH and the whole elixir line is pretty insane. But that could change and they would need Speedy kits again.

Nocta.5274:

I’m not a fan of how Lock On works, but its in a very fair spot in engi trait lines. They need to find another way to get swiftness if they want lock on, and its not always easy.

These days they get by with Elixir B, because HGH and the whole elixir line is pretty insane. But that could change and they would need Speedy kits again.

I’d be fine with Lock On if they made real sacrafice. Literally the only thing they could do was counter the thief and be dead weight in team fights/get rekt by all other classes. This is not the case though and is currently not fair.

Morfedel.4165:

The gyro, however, remains visible and can be destroyed.

As for the reveal pulse, mesmer and thief had really had it good with so much stealth and almost zero counterplay to it – it was time some counterplay became available. Unfortunately its skilled based and really just exists on one class, but in a way that’s good for you guys. Engineer has the only reliable anti stealth tools (though rangers hvae some sorta kinda abilities)

What they should really do is have some kind of counterplay built into the game itself, but not something that easily voids the stealth either. But I doubt that will happen anytime soon.

disclaimer: I’m referring primarily to WvW aspect of things.

Counter-play to stealth was skill. You learn what they would be doing and plan ahead. I enjoyed destroying other thieves, because I knew what they would be doing, where they were most likely to be. Good counter-play is not press a button and effectively shut down their entire build or an entire playstyle. Thing is, without this new source of reveal, it was already possible to completely shut them down.
(I don’t think Herald should have a 360 range similar reveal either. I think a very short range would be more ideal if this kind of reveal is ‘needed’. 360 is ridiculous enough, but 900…. just… wtf. Also, to go back to some old posts made about the goggles… people did in fact run the goggles for the Analyze as well with lock on. Even ignoring the goggles, a lock on engi and a ranger with sic’ em can pretty much destroy a thief relying on stealth in short order). Difference of course is that if an engineer knows a thief is going to be a problem, they can change to lock-on and possibly slot goggles. I had people do it when I was still playing thief.

On thief, yes, I effectively quit playing it because the exact D/D playstyle I enjoyed, isn’t really viable as things are, leaving option as instead doing a gank for a large group. Meh. Which that too could end up being pointless since there’s bound to be engineers blowing this toolbelt skill randomly in zerg fights. Don’t sit and think that they would be more likely to have mortar or crate… I’ve seen charr guardians with warband support (promptly showed them why it was a bad idea, but they didn’t seem to learn), human longbow rangers with reaper of grenth.. think on that. I… I could go on but the scars…. let me forget them.

Bit off-topic below:
Anet, even in GW1, had a bad habit of over-nerfing things. There were a few things they made overpowered and left that way, but for the most part they nerfed one skill of an overpowered build into the ground so the build would no longer work. This of course didn’t solve the root problem, just ended up with people going to the next ‘meta’. Some things don’t change. And then there’s also their ‘buffs’. They also had a habit of buffing the wrong things, causing them to nerf that which they buffed. Oh they do some things differently here, but it just feels like they are following the same base pattern.

Which itself, makes me very worried about Revenant’s future. Loved the class even when people said it was horribly underpowered (it still actually hit fairly hard for it’s stats), and now it looks to be overpowered at release, and therefore destined for a nerf.

Thieves become more and more of a joke, because Anet gives more and more what made the Thief unique to all other classes, including also hard counters, while doing nothing at all in the defense department of the Thief and keeping with all this power creep about conditions still the game at a ridiculous state of balance of 2012 with way too low Base Health values, that shouldn’t be balanced around just 3 Class Types, but rather each Class should get their Base Health Values individually balanced around their Gameplay Mechanics and not, in regard of which Class Type they are.
it should be condired more than just only armor values, but also, how much access the class has to Boon, how much acces the class has to invulnerability and other Damage Mitigation Mechanics, how strong the class is at controling the flow of combat and that not just only with 1 siongle build, but in general with all useable weapons considered.
11k Base Health Values are absolute laughable for the current state of the game’s balance. Condition Damage needs to get nerfed, because at the moment its totalyl out of control since the Trait Patch.
Defense Stats need to get finally buffed so that they become finally up on par with the offensive Stats to break finalyl this stupid Zerker or GTFO mentality where if you fight against a defensive player build, that you actually really see a big difference between such a defensive build and a more offensive one, by having a much much harder time to deal significant damage.

Condition Damage needs to stop ignoring defense. Vitality should not only increase your Maximum Health, but should proportionally also increase your defense against Conditions by decreasing the Condition DDurations on you significantly.
One with very high Vitality against someone with basically no Vitality, like a zerker player should basically suffer maximum 33-40% lesser condition/CC durations and toughness should reduce both, direct damage as like condition damage.
Conditions should ignore only armor defense. This way if you go fir high defense you should also receive significantly lesser condition damage if you boost your toughness very high and if you go for both, vit and toughness, then you should naturalyl have the best defense against conditions because then they will last shorter an you and deal also lesser damage. Thats a very important thing that needs finally to happen, if GW2 wants to get back onto the right path of balance in general.

When this has changed, then the Thief needs a dire near complete redesign.
This class has so many useless traits, so many near useless utility skilsl which would work alot better and would make more sense, if anet would merge them with other traits/utilities to make space for some new better fitting and overall useful new traits and utilitiy skills, which could be used to give the Thief some better group support, than to reduce the whole class only down to stealth and venoms as also giving the class some more interesting control mechanics and increase more its main role of Boon Stealing and improve it also to Skill Stealing to stop enemies better from using certain skills as a unique control gameplay that only Thieves should be able to to.

The Steal Mechanic needs a complete rework and it should get increased so that Thieves should be able to become also able to steal more oftenly than just only once every like 20-30s. A Thief practicalyl should steal whenver theres an open opportunity for them. Thieves fight dirty, they use any chance they can get to receive the upperhand in the battle.
Thieves in GW2 are way too “nice”. Saying that Thieves are no high priority target for mostly anyone just shows exactly, how anet has nerfed over time the whole class practically to death.
The reason for that is, because ANet thought it would be a good idea to give mesmers super superior stealth in combat (even it its not the longest, but for battles its the most effective one right now) and now add on top of that even a superior stealth to engineers?
What will come next Anet, will you give now to the ranger E-Spec also a stealth methiod, that will be much more superior, than anythign Thief has??.
This stealth gyro will just plain outright completely ruin the whole game, I will tell you.
You will practically never see any Zergs in WvW anymore, because they will be most of the time always stealth by all the scrappers that will hide them permanently, its just plain idiotic to think about that, as you will instantly realize very quickly, how fats this will totally ruin all the fun of WvW, cause you will get constantly overrun by perma stealtghed zergs, where you maybe thought by the gyros flyign aroud, it could have been juzst only a small roaming group of 5 enemies, ending up easily in a 25 man zerg stomping you into the ground the second they get out of stealth….
—-

Stealth needs a redesign and after readign this thread, I#m absolutely for it to turn Stealth into a Boon which could then be removed by practically PBAoE skills that have the ability to remove boons, so that they could make you visible again, if you happen to have at that moment no cover boons to protect your Stealth from being removed and that while still keepign the mechanic, that stealth disappears once you attack, lettign it practically work like blindness which disapears also on attack.

That way would become Stealth also a normalized feature for all professions. i found it always total stupid, that Thieves get punished with this idiotic “Reveal” and Mesmers/rangers/Engineers don’t get that, only because they have per se no inherent spamability of stealth. But this practically changed with the change on the rune of the Trapper giving stealth when using traps…

By turning Stealth into a Boon, this unfair treatment to Thieves would find finally an end, because the natural counterplay to Stealth would be then Boon Removal Skills and there would be no need anymore for that stupid Reveal Mechanic .
Boon Corruption of Stealth could be then the Condition Torment as currently Might is the only boon, that has 2 conditions converted. Corrupting Stealth should turn then into Torment, so that Might has not anymore 2 conditions that can be converted into it, where it should be only Weakness.
Immobilized should get converted to Alacrity by the way and not Swiftness, so that the new boon alacrity also gets a fittign Boon Corruption/Conversion.

I hope, that once HoT has been released and all Elite Specs have been properly tested out long enough by players to give fitting feedback, that we will see then a big Balance Patch for the game, which takes for once then all things into consideration, including everythign that has been constantly neglected and ignored over the past 3 years and that the Main professions and elite-specailizations including all their traits, all their utilities, and all their weapon skills including the complete underwater component get so rebalanced, taking also Base Health into consideration, nerfign Condition Danmage and tweaking finayl the defensive gameplay mechanics, so that we get finally a state of Game Balance, that can be used as a solid foundation for the next Elite Specializations to come and which provides from that point on for all professions the promised 4-6 VIABLE BUILDS that every playable profession should have!!

And not that we have a progression systme with traits, that dumb a profession down to have litterally only 1 single viable build, because everything else pof the class is so massively underpowered and totally irrelevant for the game, that it can’t compete against that one single good build due to lacking customization options in regard of Weapon Skills, way too limiting and too less trait options and very limited customizable utility skills as also way too less Healing and Elite Skill Options.

Every Class should have like 10 Healing and Elite Skill Options, then we can talk about “Build Diversity” and is absolutely not “wished too much” or “too difficult to balance/overview”

I actually don’t care about Thieves keeping stealth.

It’s those kitten ed Mesmers that I want to reveal. I hate Mesmers, they are the most annoying class to fight against in the game. The stealthing and teleportation they have just adds insult to injury.

Amante.8109:

Raven.9603:

So many things wrong here.

Yeah, like just about everything you’re saying. Judging by both your rhetoric and your post history, you don’t even play Thief, so you might want to listen to someone who does telling you in detail what its genuine weaknesses are.

Or you could just be like every other non-Thief player that wanders into our forum (other than ronpierce) and spew uninformed garbage all day. Why not? It worked to get Thieves nerfed up to this point, so people might as well keep doing it. Don’t stop until the profession is completely unplayable… Thief still has a few decent tricks despite being among the two weakest professions in the game. Can’t have that, can we?

I have played s/d+sb regularly for over two years (theres a picture of her in the sticky at the top of the forum). I don’t post on this forum often because the concentration of tools is so much higher than everywhere else, and you drown out rational discussions with salt and whine (eg there are more Teefs on this forum than Thieves). You need more Sizer’s and less drama queens. Discussions to push things forward.

Case in point: you claiming I am wrong on all of my points without actually providing rationale for why any of them are wrong. Thats not constructive.

Look at the bigger picture:

Engineers are the least played class in the game. Revenants are about to be the most popular class in the game. Fact: No engineers take utility goggles because reveal isnt worth the better choices for a utility slot. Fact: Few engineers take lock on, because its not as good as other traits in the same line.

Stealth Gyro is going up against 2 of the strongest elities in the game, both of them are better than Gyro, so there is no reason to chose Gyro other than “new hotness”. After a few weeks, no one is going to use it for anything other than clearing out mesmers from keeps in WvW, therefore this Elite is not going to impair thieves in any meta. If you disagree with that, hey, fine. What part of that do you disagree with and why?

Revenants are about to be the most popular class in the game. Every single Rev will take Glint, because it is far and away their strongest line, and every single one of those Glint Rev’s will have Reveal. THAT directly hurts thieves exponentially more than stealth gyro. But where are the posts? Where is the rage over the reveals people are actually going to take? Do you disagree that Rev’s are a much bigger problem, if so, why?

From someone who regularly plays both thief and engi: I can’t picture myself using the new elite for anything other than lolz. Next to elixir X and supply crate, what would make you want to chose stealth gyro for roaming or a pvp match?

Ging.6485:

I actually don’t care about Thieves keeping stealth.

It’s those kitten ed Mesmers that I want to reveal. I hate Mesmers, they are the most annoying class to fight against in the game. The stealthing and teleportation they have just adds insult to injury.

Of course, why would you? Thief is so underpowered it’s better to save reveals for mesmers.

The solution to this is simple. Allow the Thief to steal the Engineer’s gyro! :-D

No more gunk, YAY!!!

meepeY.2867:

What really sucks is that good Engi’s are saying that they wont even take the Sneak Gyro. They’re happy with the Box Drop or the Elixer. Fair play if you think the Gyro isn’t great.

However, BAD Engi’s who struggle or dislike Thieves will take the Sneak Gyro and now they have the 1-button-press-go-kitten-yourself-anti-Thief ability. Now the bad Engi’s will be able to beat Thieves with another dumb thing that takes out the skill factor and keeps it to a “who’s build is better” orientation.

The skill ceiling keeps getting lower and lower for other Professions where as the bar of requirement for Thieves gets higher and higher. We slowly become a class which is either 100% Glass Cannon so we can 1 shot on a luck based percentage outcome, some form of Trap Bunker Condi or going to the cheesiest of builds in the “Ghost Thief” build (No idea what the “Ghost Thief” is? Click here, sorry for the blatant stream plug).

thank you for this, i dont think you know what youve unleashed on my enemies

Raven.9603:

snipped a lot for ease of reply

Fact: No engineers take utility goggles because reveal isnt worth the better choices for a utility slot.

Except a number have. Oh I agree there are better alternatives, but some do still take it.

Fact: Few engineers take lock on, because its not as good as other traits in the same line.

I have seen way too many with it, in WvW. It is far more annoying and dangerous when the engineer is in a group though, than when they are alone. I would agree that the other traits have their uses. However, if the engineer doesn’t feel that they ‘need’ the swiftness, and doesn’t care about the attack/spell from Streamlined Kits, they are likely to take Lock On, especially if they have had issues with someone in stealth. That’s just running around with the trait. Others will swap to the trait and use it, just as they will with this elite. It is very likely the toolbelt skill will receive the most use, rather than the elite, if they stick to what they have said.

As for herald having a similar reveal: It is a lot shorter range, but still too much range on it. It still has the same capacity to completely negate shadow refuge, and I most definitely disagree with it as well. But still, there is a big difference between 900 range, and 360 range. I don’t think either should be more than 240, but I don’t think these kinds of hard counters should be done either.

Raven.9603:

What part of that do you disagree with and why?

I was in a frustrated mood and didn’t express myself well at all in that previous post. I am going to try again in a calmer and more detailed manner, as that is what this complicated situation demands. It involves a lot of interlocking issues—as well as years of frustration from Thieves simmering under the surface—so it’s not easily summarized.

To start: yes, good Engineers aren’t going to run Sneak Gyro in SPvP, as it’s over-specialized and not as versatile as the two elites in current use. With that in mind, I wouldn’t say that the Thieves complaining about how Sneak Gyro will “shut stealth down” are wrong or missing the point as much as they are not good at expressing what it is about the skill’s very existence that bothers them. From a developer’s perspective, this is a problem with players in general—they are good at expressing what frustrates them, but not why.

It is very disheartening to see Engineers receive a better version of one of the few Thief skills that are still relevant, given that it is likely to further obviate the need for Thieves in PvE. On top of that, Sneak Gyro will likely see a good amount of use by less skillful and/or experienced Engineers who have decided that they really dislike going against Stealth.

Realistically speaking, this further shrinks what is already an absurdly thin margin of error for the PvP Thief. It’s depressing to know that even when you outplay your opponent, the tiniest mistake will cause your ruin. That margin keeps getting tighter and tighter, and yet the Thief is not rewarded proportionately for when they do thoroughly outplay the opponent… unless you consider another 5-10 seconds of not dying a reward.

Raven.9603:

Revenants are about to be the most popular class in the game. Every single Rev will take Glint, because it is far and away their strongest line, and every single one of those Glint Rev’s will have Reveal. THAT directly hurts thieves exponentially more than stealth gyro. But where are the posts? Where is the rage over the reveals people are actually going to take?

People are still upset about that too, actually, but you’re seeing less posts about it because people have known about it for longer. Funnily enough, when the Herald’s Facet of Darkness was revealed people reacted the exact same way as they are to Scrapper’s Sneak Gyro now, despite one being a significantly bigger practical threat than the other. This should tell you that it’s less about the particulars and more about the general feeling of the Thief class being neglected—and worse, repeatedly nerfed without compensation on the few rare occasions it’s given any attention.

Really, can you blame people for being frustrated after witnessing a parade of elite specialization reveals that both give them tools we wish we had, and give them tools that will make our lives as Thieves even harder?

Lastly, here is the main part of your post I strongly disagreed with:

Raven.9603:

Stealth needs counterplay, because stealth without counterplay means the victim cant retaliate and that is a bad gaming experience for everyone whose not a thief or mesmer. That you cant see that really shows a lack of perspective outside this class. Reveal should be in the game, and probably more prevalent (i think the Revenant zerg is going to be your real issue).

Stealth does not need counterplay. The very way it was designed already provides multiple avenues of counterplay. Let’s not forget that Self-Reveal exists: 4 seconds after every use of Stealth is a long time to be exposed, especially for a class as reliant on Stealth for survival as Thief is. What Thief does with their Stealth is also very predictable: either they run away or they try to open on you with Backstab (which is very easy to blunt or negate the damage of when you know it’s coming and what to do when it does). That predictability while in Stealth also opens Thief up to ground-targeted AOEs and other shenanigans.

From where I’m standing, the problem has little to do with Stealth and almost entirely to do with Mesmers and how Stealth interacts with the rest of their mechanics. It turns out that Stealth gets a little ridiculous when you give it to a class with high burst damage that can be delivered from range, strong passive durability through traits, and powerful clones that can continue to confuse and misdirect after leaving stealth. Who would’ve knew?

Maugetarr.6823:

How about we just change all of our “while in stealth” traits to “when you are revealed” instead. So SRej becomes “gain 1200 health and 2 initiative when you leave stealth or are revealed.” SE becomes “lose 2 conditions when you leave stealth or gain revealed.” The leaving stealth part is there so that if it expires naturally, you still gain benefit from it.

With that my condi cleanse, burst etc would be out of my hand as I would have to find means to reveal myself to get my condis off. So, I’m playing against a condi mesmer, he shatters all his clones on me, I pop SR, he stealthes – and just has to wait until I’m dead – but to be fair: this sounds like something that would be in game soon.

Edit: It’s pretty hard to find a compromise actually. I think the best really would be to redesign Thief from scratch. As I’m not so sure if something like “remove conditions if you’re either stealthed or revealed, your next attack after being revealed has got a 100% crit chance” would be what people want. In the end there’s way too much tied to stealth and I’d love to have some of it put into other trait lines or as a thief base.

Some of these reactions are hilarious. Here’s why.

PvE

1. No-one will ever use this because the gyro isn’t stealthed and so will aggro mobs, usually hitting party members, getting them in combat and defeating the point of a stealth skip.
2. The gyro doesn’t follow close enough that you stay in the stealth ring while moving.
3. No-one will use the toolbelt skill unless it is absolutely required to unstealth enemies, even then revenant will become meta and can do this at low to no DPS loss.
4. Mortar kit is more useful and orbital strike is part of the power meta.
5. Supply Crate is meta for burngineer in PvE.
6. Blasting smoke fields is faster and thief not only blasts but provides them better than anyone.

PvP

1. Both Elixir X and Supply Drop are much, much better options.
2. Only reason I see to ever take this is if stealth players are REALLY giving you a hard time. As in you’re against a stealth heavy comp.
3. Very few players in a high skill MMR bracket will take this gyro.

WvW

1. This is where the reveal will see use as stealth is and always has been stupid in this mode due to lack of PvP constraints such as point capture and time.
2. The actual gyro will be a poor mans thief, again due to it not being stealthed.
3. It’ll be useful for ganking (stack stealth, blow up gyro) but then having a thief with you would allow for supply crate and it’s insane lockdown abilities.
4. This game mode is where a lot of the stealth complaints come from.

Jana.6831:

Edit: It’s pretty hard to find a compromise actually. I think the best really would be to redesign Thief from scratch.

I think this is top contender for the most well thought out and sensible comment in the thread and no, I’m not being sarcastic.
A thief redesign could allow for thieves to trade mobility/stealth in varying amounts for point holding and team/small scale fighting prowess. Right now you can’t as a lot of that is in some way built into the weapons themselves which always makes the thief more mobile than any other profession with good to great disengage.

As a bandaid though they could change a lot of SA “while in stealth” to be upon entering stealth. You would always get most of the bonuses of the SA line even if you got revealed. It temporarily locking you out of the benefits of a trait line can’t really be avoided but the damage is lessened. Will also be an indirect buff to Jana’s favourite playstyle.

Right now playing thief or even playing D/D thief is suicidal, so making things worse than they are now would take some effort.

Not so sure if the “upon entering stealth” thingy would work as right now we have to “sit in stealth” to benefit from it – you can make it a lasting buff – that would work. But still; one of our main defenses is that the enemy doesn’t know where we are, thus might or might not attack us. That falls away with all the revealed stuff. How about: Invulnerable but revealed? ;) I would love that actually, makes everybody think twice about using these skills.

Jana.6831:

Right now playing thief or even playing D/D thief is suicidal, so making things worse than they are now would take some effort.

Not so sure if the “upon entering stealth” thingy would work as right now we have to “sit in stealth” to benefit from it – you can make it a lasting buff – that would work. But still; one of our main defenses is that the enemy doesn’t know where we are, thus might or might not attack us. That falls away with all the revealed stuff. How about: Invulnerable but revealed? I would love that actually, makes everybody think twice about using these skills.

Or, less blatantly overpowered, how about just getting a SA trait that grants damage resistance when revealed? Not the protection boon, but straight up DR so it doesn’t get hate/stripped This means we’d still be a bit weak to conditions, would still have to camp in stealth for much of the clear, and still be vulnerable to CC as we’re back to supersquish once revealed ends, but it would give some much needed cover and help to counterbalance all the revealed. Maybe not DR as strong as protection, but something?

PopeUrban.2578:

Or, less blatantly overpowered, how about just getting a SA trait that grants damage resistance when revealed? Not the protection boon, but straight up DR so it doesn’t get hate/stripped This means we’d still be a bit weak to conditions, would still have to camp in stealth for much of the clear, and still be vulnerable to CC as we’re back to supersquish once revealed ends, but it would give some much needed cover and help to counterbalance all the revealed. Maybe not DR as strong as protection, but something?

I don’t like the condi removal availlable to thief right now, I don’t like how OP condis have already been in wvw and how ridiculous they’ve become after the latest patch.
I think I got what you mean and that would be the “cheap” answer to the “cheesy” implementation of reveal. But as long as it’s not clear what and if anet plans to do anything about conditions/ the ways to remove them, I can’t say that I would agree with that.

oh I’m not saying our condition removal is up to par, but i know how anet like to toe the “everybody’s got a weakness” line, so my thinking is if damaging conditions are supposed to be our weakness for some reason, why not ramp up the white damage resistance and cc resistance to compensate?

Personally I’d be happy if our squish level stayed where it is and we just got better condi removal and some sort of additional defensive gimme while revealed if we spec in to SA. Stability maybe? IDK.

PopeUrban.2578:

oh I’m not saying our condition removal is up to par, but i know how anet like to toe the “everybody’s got a weakness” line, so my thinking is if damaging conditions are supposed to be our weakness for some reason, why not ramp up the white damage resistance and cc resistance to compensate?

Personally I’d be happy if our squish level stayed where it is and we just got better condi removal and some sort of additional defensive gimme while revealed if we spec in to SA. Stability maybe? IDK.

Thing is, what kills me is cleave and condis – come to think of it, my thief is that squishy that it’s really hard to tell what exactly kills me and even more: HOW THE HELL I STILL KILL PEOPLE
So yeah, I wouldn’t play thief if it was OP – I don’t want stuff to be applied to me passively, that’s why I said that thief should be redesigned from scratch to create mechanics against opponent mechanics that destroy our only real mechanic that is stealth.
But, since I’ve been around for a while: 1,5 years ago I have been able to run in the midst of a zerg, that was gone with the introduction of ferocity for whatever reason, I’ve been too new to thief at that time, I relearned running with the zerg about a year ago and the June patch made it close to impossible. I’d like to be able to be a proper zerg thief again. Just the option to do that. No idea how that would work but It would be great if thieves had the opportunity to not be squishy for once.

To be fair Jana I find the skill lag is what deterred me from running thief in a zerg, those 3 way SM fights with AM, ER, DL or AG make anything but 1 spam guard unplayable.

apharma.3741:

Some of these reactions are hilarious. Here’s why.

PvE

1. No-one will ever use this because the gyro isn’t stealthed and so will aggro mobs, usually hitting party members, getting them in combat and defeating the point of a stealth skip.
2. The gyro doesn’t follow close enough that you stay in the stealth ring while moving.
3. No-one will use the toolbelt skill unless it is absolutely required to unstealth enemies, even then revenant will become meta and can do this at low to no DPS loss.
4. Mortar kit is more useful and orbital strike is part of the power meta.
5. Supply Crate is meta for burngineer in PvE.
6. Blasting smoke fields is faster and thief not only blasts but provides them better than anyone.

PvP

1. Both Elixir X and Supply Drop are much, much better options.
2. Only reason I see to ever take this is if stealth players are REALLY giving you a hard time. As in you’re against a stealth heavy comp.
3. Very few players in a high skill MMR bracket will take this gyro.

WvW

1. This is where the reveal will see use as stealth is and always has been stupid in this mode due to lack of PvP constraints such as point capture and time.
2. The actual gyro will be a poor mans thief, again due to it not being stealthed.
3. It’ll be useful for ganking (stack stealth, blow up gyro) but then having a thief with you would allow for supply crate and it’s insane lockdown abilities.
4. This game mode is where a lot of the stealth complaints come from.

Jana.6831:

Edit: It’s pretty hard to find a compromise actually. I think the best really would be to redesign Thief from scratch.

I think this is top contender for the most well thought out and sensible comment in the thread and no, I’m not being sarcastic.
A thief redesign could allow for thieves to trade mobility/stealth in varying amounts for point holding and team/small scale fighting prowess. Right now you can’t as a lot of that is in some way built into the weapons themselves which always makes the thief more mobile than any other profession with good to great disengage.

As a bandaid though they could change a lot of SA “while in stealth” to be upon entering stealth. You would always get most of the bonuses of the SA line even if you got revealed. It temporarily locking you out of the benefits of a trait line can’t really be avoided but the damage is lessened. Will also be an indirect buff to Jana’s favourite playstyle.

Thing is, if no one uses it in PvE, what are the chances of Anet changing how it works later? We aren’t even to BWE3 yet, what will they change about it after that? If they decide Sneak Gyro is too slow, will they speed it up? Will it really aggro mobs? Ranger pets don’t aggro if you don’t aggro, story/dungeon npc’s do the same thing… I have more questions, but none of them are going to be answered before BWE3, and things will change after that. It is entirely possible that Anet could reduce or change this function, but it is as likely that they will buff it even further.

However, Anet has continued to set this precedence where they keep pushing how far they are going to go with Reveal. Sic’ em was buffed, Engineer got their own version Analyze, (anet freaked out thief by reveal activating on leaving stealth. Probably left over from testing on Dev side but still), Then engineer got Lock On to pull out of stealth on hit, Herald got an aoe forced reveal, and then engineer again got their own version, a bigger aoe forced reveal. What’s next, a map wide instant reveal? (No, they won’t do that, well players won’t directly get a skill or trait like that, mobs could or some gimmick in an area could (‘CYA’ here), typed it though because it’s absurd and because frustration. But would you have said a year ago that we’d have Anet give a class an apparently better version of Shadow Refuge plus a 900 radius 5 target 20s cooldown aoe reveal? and that’s ignoring kinetic battery)

Now, directly responding

PvE

1. stack stealth first? Not difficult. It stacks the same as a traited thief. You wouldn’t have to be in it for long to get full amount of stealth, then you can destroy the gyro (that is, if you need to) and run off, with superspeed (you can always change trait for this, then change back).
2. See #1
3. well that is the only thing that toolbelt does, so that should be without question. Most likely they would swap elite back before it’s really needed again for a boss. Isn’t a long cooldown after all.
4. eh. I don’t like mortar really, but orbital strike would be more useful yes.
5. Supply crate won’t go away. But it will be swapped temporarily at times. Sneak gyro will be a niche use, but it will get used.
6. Perhaps but thief also uses SR to skip, not just blasts, elite gyro fills that role on a shorter cooldown. Primary reason to not use SR is it’s long cooldown, so instead if long skips are needed, start with blasts, then sr part way. Those situations thief will still be better at if the gyro does take aggro. Always a chance that could change either way.

PvP

• I probably won’t disagree with any of those

WvW

• It definitely will see use in here. This is where most of the concern is. Stealth has counterplay if the player attempts to learn how thieves (and mesmers) work. If you stand still, do nothing, and let a dagger thief backstab you, you kinda deserved it. Far too many are only comfortable zerging such that they don’t know how to deal with it. Before, I’ve downed people that should have been able to fight back and live, simply because they kept running instead of fighting, or when they did fight, they didn’t know what to do except press 1. And no, I’m not talking about uplevel invaders. In fact I’ve had better fights from some of them, they pressed more than 1! Of course they are the ones more likely to bite off more than they can chew, poor things, but I digress. I’m talking bronze, silver, etc.

Own experience:
I had some issues with thieves when I really got into wvw. Then I played thief. I’ve said it numerous times, that I enjoyed countering thieves, because I knew what they would do next, where they would be. Had guildee accused of hax because he did the same thing. That, and the thief was extremely predictable.

Amante.8109:

Stealth does not need counterplay. The very way it was designed already provides multiple avenues of counterplay. Let’s not forget that Self-Reveal exists: 4 seconds after every use of Stealth is a long time to be exposed, especially for a class as reliant on Stealth for survival as Thief is. What Thief does with their Stealth is also very predictable: either they run away or they try to open on you with Backstab (which is very easy to blunt or negate the damage of when you know it’s coming and what to do when it does). That predictability while in Stealth also opens Thief up to ground-targeted AOEs and other shenanigans.

From where I’m standing, the problem has little to do with Stealth and almost entirely to do with Mesmers and how Stealth interacts with the rest of their mechanics. It turns out that Stealth gets a little ridiculous when you give it to a class with high burst damage that can be delivered from range, strong passive durability through traits, and powerful clones that can continue to confuse and misdirect after leaving stealth. Who would’ve knew?

Thanks. Theres a lot your the follow up that I can agree with. The above part though, I guess we will agree to disagree. I will never forget how ridiculous DD thieves were at launch (its probably why I prefer more sword / shortbow builds), neither will any of my guildies who I’ve played with for years. I have known many people who literally quit this game in both of the first 2 years specifically because of the poor way stealth is implemented in GW2.

When you look at other games (DAoC, WAR, WoW, Rift), classes can stealth for a long duration and get 1 in-combat restealth that can be used for either escape or a double opener. That does a couple things:

• It allows developers to say “this class will be unstealthed for the fight unless fleeing or attempting their a double-opener, so we can tune up their in-combat survivability skills like evasion or HP to be enough to go toe-to-toe for a good period of time.” Survivability makes the stealther more enjoyable to play.
• It makes the fights more interactive because the other players can retaliate against the stealther.

In GW2, stealth was incredibly frustrating to fight against for other classes because there is unlimited in-combat restealthing. This leads to thieves being hamstrung on survivability to a point that non-stealth builds are have never been viable. The increase in reveal availability combined with the increase in out-of-stealth survivability (Daredevil), at least to me, is the developers realizing and walking back on that blunder.

The delema they are in is “how can we give thieves the tools they need to stand and fight without an over-reliance on stealth and without creating a situation where they take those tools, still go all out on stealth, and now we’ve created a monster”. Right now, the balance is off. Evade based specs still lack the vitality and condi removal they need to be good, and stealth based specs don’t get enough survivability from stealth alone (lets stupidly make embrace of shadows mutually exclusive with -20% deception cd).

While I feel revealed is a needed mechanic (and that Revs are a much bigger thief problem than Engis), I think thieves need an all around durability increase.

@Lunacy.

Regarding PvE. You skip because it’s faster than killing. Messing around with the function gyro for “stacking stealth” will take at least 3s if not longer to get decent duration. Where as blasting a smoke field provided by the thief by the whole party that is not brain dead will take 2s and give about 15s of stealth. Thief only has competition from Mesmer because they can run ahead and then WP and portal the rest of the party while playing little to no other role than a glorified troop transport.

Additionally I can tell you either didn’t pay attention to or watch the live stream. They explicitly stated the gyro will not be hidden and it certainly looked to draw mob aggro when jebro used it. It may change but we’re not talking about what if, we’re talking about as is.

As for WvW, praying on zerglings, the same type that empower in PvE and proceed to press 1 on guard staff at bosses all fight, isn’t exactly helping your argument. Fighting roamers and people who have some form of individual thought and intelligence you quickly realise what was said on the live stream is true. Stealth puts the terms of the engagement squarely in the hands of whoever has stealth or the longest. They always get to choose to fight or run and it’s always on their terms.

The enemy can’t run as you’re faster and setting themselves up for a backstab. Can’t fight as they’ll just be blowing cool downs. Well that’s what I do when I’m a thief in stealth, I sit and wait to see what people do. I let them waste cool downs, keep extending stealth, then when they try to run, hit them. They weren’t outplayed, they weren’t some noob, they were just destroyed by a mechanic they had no way to really counter other than hit thin air an hope.

apharma.3741:

The enemy can’t run as you’re faster and setting themselves up for a backstab. Can’t fight as they’ll just be blowing cool downs. Well that’s what I do when I’m a thief in stealth, I sit and wait to see what people do. I let them waste cool downs, keep extending stealth, then when they try to run, hit them. They weren’t outplayed, they weren’t some noob, they were just destroyed by a mechanic they had no way to really counter other than hit thin air an hope.

I will cry myself to sleep after this – those poor guys!!

Raven.9603:

So many things wrong here.

Are there really? Let’s see what you’ve got.

Raven.9603:

1) Mesmers stealth too.

Never said they didn’t. Nice strawman. Next!

Raven.9603:

2) it wont be taken and you are freaking out over nothing

Never said that it won’t. Nice strawman! Next!

Raven.9603:

3) you can kill it with autos

Holy speculation batman. Now you’re just making things up. Next!

Raven.9603:

4) Stealth needs counterplay

Stealth already has counterplay as I previously specified IN DETAIL. Next!

Raven.9603:

5) You put 14 in all caps because… an engineer elite skill is better than a thief utility skill, as it kitten well should be?

This is a response to all the people saying “hurrr kill the drone”. Please try to consider context before you blatantly miss the point again.

So 5 swings, zero hits. You almost struck out twice. Nice work!