Guild Wars 2

(1) Why can’t thieves even spell my name correctly?

(2) That’s a cute link to a thread you started. I don’t see anything there I should really give much thought to, including the “spreadsheet to compare single-target to AOE”, LOL. Of course damage multiplied times 5 targets is going to be higher.

(3) Osicat’s video:
1st kill against Guardian … where are you getting the 34k burst combo?
2nd fight against multiple people … where is that 34k burst combo?
3rd fight against the Norn Mesmer … I see 18k, I don’t see 34k … where is that?
4th fight against the Asura Mesmer … no 34k there
5th fight against the Asura on the bridge … i don’t see 34k. I did see some of the “burst” from confusion though.
6th and final fight against the Necro … I don’t see a 34k burst.
Please tell me the rough timestamp for Osicat’s video (which I’ve seen plenty), and I’ll watch it even more closely for that 34k burst.

Do you even notice what is going into Osicat’s burst by the way? He first has to cast 3 illusions, then he starts with the daze shatter to put 25 stacks of vulnerability on the target. Then he quickly uses Mirror Images and a dodge roll to summon 3 more for mind wrack. Sometimes he even continues and gets a few more for a Cry of Frustration.

There is no one hit. It is quite visible. It is dependent on long cooldowns (i.e. Mirror Image = 36 to 45s, Diversion = 34.5 to 45s). There’s also quite a bit of APM involved there.

(4) Warrior Aimed Shot
1st kill is against an uplevel.
2nd kill is against a glassy thief who is taking 2k crits from rifle’s auto-attack … i assume not even in exotics yet.
3rd kill is against another super glassy person taking 2k crits from rifle’s auto-attack … same assumption.
4th kill is against a glassy ele who took 2.5k to 3k crits from rifle’s auto-attack … same assumption.
5th kill and those after I couldn’t see evidence of how glassy/tanky they were and then lost interest due to lack of time.

You won’t get many disagreements from me about kill shot in zerg settings. It is difficult to tell that that one warrior amongst 20+ people is aiming at you and not one of the other 19+ people on your side of the fight. They really should put some sort of indicator for it.

When it comes to average or better players, those glass cannon rifle warriors crumble quickly. They can’t compete with glass cannon thieves and mesmers.

I’ll take a look at the 3rd video later when I get a chance. Code is done compiling.

image/diversion are long cooldowns? mug is 45 secs but that was nerfed.

he said they CAN hit burst for 34k. not a fallacy.
point is thieves werent the only ones that could do uber burst dmg.

the build does not crumble against anyone. its not made for a 1 v 1. its made so they are lost in the fray ……and snipe out players for huge dmg….OP dmg…

Sebrent.3625:

Please go point out the flawed information I’m “spewing”.

I play Ranger and Mesmer, as stated many times on various forums. Both don’t have problems with a majority of Thieves. I’m not an exception here. Most thieves are rubbish and don’t even understand half the potential of the class.

It’s only thieves with the skill level of players like Xeviel (Anvil Rock knows him as "that blue-haired thief … check forum for posts griping about him) that present a threat as they know how OP the class can be and will tell you as such. He even thinks revealed would be fine going back to 4 seconds, but you don’t see me asking for that. Heck the only things I ask are that
(1) Thief mechanics adhere to the same mechanics as other classes that support “skilled play”
(2) Thief players stop griping and acting like their class is “so weak”.

Know of any other class that can constantly stealth?
Steal boons constantly while also doing high damage with the same ability?
Disengage from a fight with any class?
Have a hard counter that can’t actually catch/kill them unless they are too stubborn to disengage from the fight?

Nope? Okay then.

1) Constantly Stealth? Well a thief cant constantly stealth but has a good amount of it. In the same vein, however, it isn’t an Invulnerability is it? And we know a certain class that has that and can keep it up for a good long time…
2) Steal Boons? Well this was just a recent addition to the thief so lets talk more about reversing conditions and stealing boons. These abilities have been part of a certain class for a looooong time and wow no one complained about them.
3) Disengage? EVERY CLASS CAN DISENGAGE FROM A FIGHT… you make it sound like stealth or dodge or whatever automatically ends agro in PvP or WvW… it doesn’t. Neither does RTL, or running… the fight is disengaged when the opponent cant catch ya. Now, since a stealthed thief can still be CC’d, hit with AOE dmg, take dmg from conditions, be affected by conditions… well I guess stealth isn’t as good a disengage as say some of the Ele or Necro abilities.
4) Have a hard counter that can kill a person too stuborn to disengage? Well I don’t know any thief ability that does that… maybe caltrops but then again, every class has a trap or something like it… As for a hard ability that kills the attacker… How about Retaliation?

PearlGore.7419:

Warriors can escape just as easy as any Thief btw. If I Don’t want to die on my Warrior I most likely will not.

As easily? Hell no. I agree I can escape on my warrior but the exaggerations need to end. Stealth goes far beyond just moving fast. No class can escape like thief. There is no comparison. Sure you can out run a mob on warrior but there is no way you are going to do it as easily as you can on most thief builds.

Edit

Stealth is OP in wvw not everywhere else. Instead of nerfing us like they did before in PvE also they decided to but an item in that a targeted nerf wvw only. STOP whining!

TheGuy.3568:

PearlGore.7419:

Warriors can escape just as easy as any Thief btw. If I Don’t want to die on my Warrior I most likely will not.

As easily? Hell no. I agree I can escape on my warrior but the exaggerations need to end. Stealth goes far beyond just moving fast. No class can escape like thief. There is no comparison. Sure you can out run a mob on warrior but there is no way you are going to do it as easily as you can on most thief builds.

pearl gore is right. i had infiltrators step …shadowstep….steal…..infiltrators strike….heartseeker…50% speed while invis….swiftness on dodge and devourer venom and basilisk venom with my d/p + s/d build …very typical 0 30 20 20 0 build that has lots of intiative lots of mobility….and i chased this warrior around the map. i couldnt keep him stopped long enough and do enough dmg to down him….mind you he only was trying to escape and not fight…. but i couldnt do much without an oldschool burst.

Travlane.5948:

TheGuy.3568:

PearlGore.7419:

Warriors can escape just as easy as any Thief btw. If I Don’t want to die on my Warrior I most likely will not.

As easily? Hell no. I agree I can escape on my warrior but the exaggerations need to end. Stealth goes far beyond just moving fast. No class can escape like thief. There is no comparison. Sure you can out run a mob on warrior but there is no way you are going to do it as easily as you can on most thief builds.

pearl gore is right. i had infiltrators step …shadowstep….steal…..infiltrators strike….heartseeker…50% speed while invis….swiftness on dodge and devourer venom and basilisk venom with my d/p + s/d build …very typical 0 30 20 20 0 build that has lots of intiative lots of mobility….and i chased this warrior around the map. i couldnt keep him stopped long enough and do enough dmg to down him….mind you he only was trying to escape and not fight…. but i couldnt do much without an oldschool burst.

Did he ever stealth and leave combat? Yeah you can build a warrior fast full melee set. You can get the same mobility with D/any alone and you still get shortbow for range. Stealth is there when you escape as a thief. STEALTH. S-T-E-A-L-T-H. Never forget that. Sure you can get run It might have been me on my warrior. But there no way I literally dropped from sight and left the fight. N one ca do that only thief.

TheGuy.3568:

PearlGore.7419:

Warriors can escape just as easy as any Thief btw. If I Don’t want to die on my Warrior I most likely will not.

As easily? Hell no. I agree I can escape on my warrior but the exaggerations need to end. Stealth goes far beyond just moving fast. No class can escape like thief. There is no comparison. Sure you can out run a mob on warrior but there is no way you are going to do it as easily as you can on most thief builds.

Edit

Stealth is OP in wvw not everywhere else. Instead of nerfing us like they did before in PvE also they decided to but an item in that a targeted nerf wvw only. STOP whining!

also know when they nerf stealth they are not just nerfing the invis mechanic that makes us hard to see/target… they are nerfing :

Condition Removal
Thousands and Thousand of HP heals
70% of total dmg (effect from being revealed/visible)
Blinding enemies
Initiative regeneration
Initiative gain
Boon Gain (regen/might etc)
Increased Movement speed

…..unfortunately everything good for a thieves defense and a good portion of our offense is tied to stealth. its different when u keep it in perspective to what is tied to stealth and not just the “hey i cant see this troll” point

TheGuy.3568:

Travlane.5948:

TheGuy.3568:

PearlGore.7419:

Warriors can escape just as easy as any Thief btw. If I Don’t want to die on my Warrior I most likely will not.

As easily? Hell no. I agree I can escape on my warrior but the exaggerations need to end. Stealth goes far beyond just moving fast. No class can escape like thief. There is no comparison. Sure you can out run a mob on warrior but there is no way you are going to do it as easily as you can on most thief builds.

pearl gore is right. i had infiltrators step …shadowstep….steal…..infiltrators strike….heartseeker…50% speed while invis….swiftness on dodge and devourer venom and basilisk venom with my d/p + s/d build …very typical 0 30 20 20 0 build that has lots of intiative lots of mobility….and i chased this warrior around the map. i couldnt keep him stopped long enough and do enough dmg to down him….mind you he only was trying to escape and not fight…. but i couldnt do much without an oldschool burst.

Did he ever stealth and leave combat? Yeah you can build a warrior fast full melee set. You can get the same mobility with D/any alone and you still get shortbow for range.

we get similar mobility. but theres also 2 kinds of mobility (in combat evasion and escape) . Thieves have great in combat evasion …..but outside of that they have heartseeker and shadowstep. infiltrators/steal needs targets so unless ur chasing its useless :P. infiltrators arrow only has like 650 range maybe a lil less (yes it reads 900 but its not and u would know that if u were a thief). the good thing for warriors is alot of their mobility is linked to their weapons and have incredible speed bursts/leaps.

Travlane.5948:

TheGuy.3568:

PearlGore.7419:

Warriors can escape just as easy as any Thief btw. If I Don’t want to die on my Warrior I most likely will not.

As easily? Hell no. I agree I can escape on my warrior but the exaggerations need to end. Stealth goes far beyond just moving fast. No class can escape like thief. There is no comparison. Sure you can out run a mob on warrior but there is no way you are going to do it as easily as you can on most thief builds.

Edit

Stealth is OP in wvw not everywhere else. Instead of nerfing us like they did before in PvE also they decided to but an item in that a targeted nerf wvw only. STOP whining!

also know when they nerf stealth they are not just nerfing the invis mechanic that makes us hard to see/target… they are nerfing :

Condition Removal
Thousands and Thousand of HP heals
70% of total dmg (effect from being revealed/visible)
Blinding enemies
Initiative regeneration
Initiative gain
Boon Gain (regen/might etc)
Increased Movement speed

…..unfortunately everything good for a thieves defense and a good portion of our offense is tied to stealth. its different when u keep it in perspective to what is tied to stealth and not just the “hey i cant see this troll” point

Here’s the base question please answer it. Is stealth balanced in WvW? No long BS argument yes or no?

I just hope that the traps allow us to keep our invis buffs (ie not revealing) but instead just making us visible to the enemy. Kind of sounds counter intuitive but it would balance it so the thief isn’t completely neutered in a fight.

ill be honest but qualify it by telling me what do you mean by “balanced” ….are we talking combat? evasion? targeting? thief specific stealth? mesmer specific stealth? ranger specific stealth? engineer specific stealth? with trade offs? in 1 v 1 setting? in zerg setting?

if talking zerg setting….. yes its quite balanced (veil is arguable tho)
if talking 1 v 1 setting….. probably not (although if nerfed thieves are not playable)
if talking thief alone……. id have to say yes bc of the dozen or so drawbacks.
if talking other classes ….yes
if talking in combat……situationally yes situationally no

and thats being 100% honest.
if u want me to say what is OP about thieves…i can make a quick list.

Black powder shot – blind pulse shouldnt be as long/fast (devastating against melee)
prolly more if i had time to think

randomfightfan.4091:

I just hope that the traps allow us to keep our invis buffs (ie not revealing) but instead just making us visible to the enemy. Kind of sounds counter intuitive but it would balance it so the thief isn’t completely neutered in a fight.

or maybe just give our characters a thing red outline? i might be able to live with that…or better yet a light red glow on the silouhette

randomfightfan.4091:

I just hope that the traps allow us to keep our invis buffs (ie not revealing) but instead just making us visible to the enemy. Kind of sounds counter intuitive but it would balance it so the thief isn’t completely neutered in a fight.

I personal hope is that it reveals you but doesn’t put the revealed condition on you. Hopefully that leaves you with your stealth bar buffs etc. We don’t know what to cooldowns will be like if you can stack them and honestly losing one stealth here and there isn’t going to ruin the class. That happens vs decent players as it is.

It probably to trip up D/P near perma stealth. Looking at the ele nerf confusion nerf and retal nerf almost all targeted at WvW it seems its time for our balance as well I am just glad its not 4 sec revealed debuffs again.

Travlane.5948:

ill be honest but qualify it by telling me what do you mean by “balanced” ….are we talking combat? evasion? targeting? thief specific stealth? mesmer specific stealth? ranger specific stealth? engineer specific stealth? with trade offs? in 1 v 1 setting? in zerg setting?

if talking zerg setting….. yes its quite balanced (veil is arguable tho)
if talking 1 v 1 setting….. probably not (although if nerfed thieves are not playable)
if talking thief alone……. id have to say yes bc of the dozen or so drawbacks.
if talking other classes ….yes
if talking in combat……situationally yes situationally no

and thats being 100% honest.
if u want me to say what is OP about thieves…i can make a quick list.

Black powder shot – blind pulse shouldnt be as long/fast (devastating against melee)
prolly more if i had time to think

The main problem is the same problem you find with ele. Theatrics (Ill get to your points after). Any nerf is seen as the class killing nerf. Everyone is chicken little and supposedly one item will make the say fall. Cut the BS. Not everyone is going to buy the trap. Its trap so you have to trigger it. There no way to know when you re going to encounter and thief. But still because it affects stealth now the kitten has hit the fan and the QQ begins. Access to stealth is so abundant I imagine this might not even change the meta of WvW.

Zerg setting doesn’t even matter you have bumped into a zerg you are kittened as it is.
1v1 most stealth is OP including mesmers.
Thief by it self running around ooc not so much.
When escaping combat yes high mobility high stealth. It should have been one or the other not both.
Taking a keep not really that big an issue.
Chasing it barely factors in.

Honestly Anet should have made stealth stronger at mitigating damage and shorter in duration. What we have here is a class mechanic that isn’t OP except for the fact that stealth across mmos is inherently OP. The sad part if you read my other post in the other thread it break it down thief isn’t even OP.

TheGuy, is stealth balanced in WvW. NOTHING is balanced in WvW. WvW by design is an unbalanced enviroment. Is it balanced that a blocking char or mist form ele, or mesmer with distortion up still counts as taking a supply camp but a thief in stealth does not? No its not balanced. because WvW by design is unbalanced

TheGuy.3568:

Here’s the base question please answer it. Is stealth balanced in WvW? No long BS argument yes or no?

you got to specify what you mean by WvW otherwise overall yes it is (its powerful in one area, almost useless in another)

Travlane.5948:

image/diversion are long cooldowns? mug is 45 secs but that was nerfed.

Mug was nerfed because a Thief could cast C&D, Steal, and Backstab within 0.5s for incredible amounts of damage that gave no visual indication. Sort of like my issue with Warrior’s kill shot, though that’s one skill at range so I’d say warrior’s is a bigger offender.

Travlane.5948:

he said they CAN hit burst for 34k. not a fallacy.
point is thieves werent the only ones that could do uber burst dmg.

Then please point out the 34k in Osicat’s video as I asked.

Travlane.5948:

the build does not crumble against anyone. its not made for a 1 v 1. its made so they are lost in the fray ……and snipe out players for huge dmg….OP dmg…

Like I said, you won’t get much argument from me on kill shot. It needs an indicator at the very least. Honestly, as I’ve told you before in other threads … 2 wrongs don’t make a right. If another class has something that is OP, that doesn’t mean you should too. It means they need a nice swat with the nerf stick. Take up nerfing Warriors with Jon “5 signet warrior” Peters :-p

Ruggan.4102:

1) Constantly Stealth? Well a thief cant constantly stealth but has a good amount of it. In the same vein, however, it isn’t an Invulnerability is it? And we know a certain class that has that and can keep it up for a good long time…

Watch some of Ez As Pi’s videos. They show a thief constantly stealthing. Ever seen a thief troll a non-trap ranger by constantly using C&D on their pet? It’s “amusing”.

A thief doesn’t gain revealed unless they break stealth with an attack. As such, with proper skill and initiative management, they can stealth all day long. It’s one of the things that makes dagger+pistol thieves so popular.

Ruggan.4102:

2) Steal Boons? Well this was just a recent addition to the thief so lets talk more about reversing conditions and stealing boons. These abilities have been part of a certain class for a looooong time and wow no one complained about them.

• Arcane Thievery only just now started to work correctly in the SAME patch … read the patch notes
• Arcane Thievery is on a long cooldown … yours is not
• Arcane Thievery does no damage … yours does a considerable amount of damage
• Arcane Thievery takes up a utility slot

Ruggan.4102:

3) Disengage? EVERY CLASS CAN DISENGAGE FROM A FIGHT… you make it sound like stealth or dodge or whatever automatically ends agro in PvP or WvW… it doesn’t. Neither does RTL, or running… the fight is disengaged when the opponent cant catch ya. Now, since a stealthed thief can still be CC’d, hit with AOE dmg, take dmg from conditions, be affected by conditions… well I guess stealth isn’t as good a disengage as say some of the Ele or Necro abilities.

Stealth is amazing because more CC abilities that would prevent you from escaping require you to have a target. This coupled with thief’s high mobility makes them by far the best at disengaging from fights. The devs talked about this in the latest state of the game as well … check it out.

Ruggan.4102:

4) Have a hard counter that can kill a person too stuborn to disengage? Well I don’t know any thief ability that does that… maybe caltrops but then again, every class has a trap or something like it… As for a hard ability that kills the attacker… How about Retaliation?

A hard counter such as a perma-retal guardian tank versus a shortbow ranger. The Ranger can beat him, but is at a serious disadvantage.

I’m not talking about a counter like a block that hits someone.

As far as retaliation goes, smart thieves don’t worry about it. They steal it and laugh. I’m amused when I listen to our thieves on TS because it’s full of them jokingly fighting over our foes boons and then laughing as they use them to more easily kill them.

@ Travlane:
After watching your video where you not only continued to auto-attack another thief with your pistol while they were daggerstorming but also used sneak attack on them 2+ times while they were daggerstorming, I can’t take you being unable to take someone down as a good measure of how possible it is.

Shemsu.8721:

TheGuy, is stealth balanced in WvW. NOTHING is balanced in WvW. WvW by design is an unbalanced enviroment. Is it balanced that a blocking char or mist form ele, or mesmer with distortion up still counts as taking a supply camp but a thief in stealth does not? No its not balanced. because WvW by design is unbalanced

hrm. good point…interesting. i do hate how mist form can enter sally ports. :P imagine if 80 eles were in a tower ….they could all take turns going down and use all aoe skills in front of tower …then just die after exhausting all their skills/dmg then m ist forming back inside to be revived by allies. would the tower ever be taken? might take hours at best. so is mist form balanced? nope :/

Here we are in agreement, Travlane. I think it’s a bit unfair that they can mist through the door/portal of a tower/keep. No other class can do that or anything close to it with their downed ability … except warriors, though they die from vengeance. Given that elementalists are already excellent in sieges, I don’t see why they needed this.

Then please point out the 34k in Osicat’s video as I asked

the 10k blured and the 6k per shatter. 4 shatters = 24k +10k = 34k. Basic math yields the answer to the whole mesmer msg. Clearly you didn’t read a word in the thread I linked to you. Cute that you’re trying to argue against something I wrote without actually reading it. I straight up said it was a dream burst in the thread. It isn’t very likely to happen but it is possible. Btw, there is no 34k in the video b/c in the parts where he landed 10k blured, the guy was down before the shatters would hit. In the part where he landed 6k shatters, the guy was down before 1. all the shatters landed and 2. he was able to get into range for blured.

Arcane Thievery does no damage … yours does a considerable amount of damage

it also removes conditions from you and puts them on the target.

Stealth is amazing because more CC abilities that would prevent you from escaping require you to have a target. This coupled with thief’s high mobility makes them by far the best at disengaging from fights. The devs talked about this in the latest state of the game as well … check it out.

true, but thief is SUPPOSED to work like that. They are supposed to be hard to pin down but blow up if they get pinned down. Don’t see a problem here.

the mug cnd bs b uild was strong but it was a "kill one person if they arent quick responders then get the he** out of dodge before anyone kills you and wait 60 secs to try it again) in zerg setting it wouldnt work bc of all the aoes and incidental dmg.

thief full zerks = 10.8k hp
mes full zerks = 16.9k hp

and now mes has more burst than thieves (which by definition are not supposed to)

stealth is plenty balanced IMO ….goes at a severe disadvantage and many shortcomings

Sebrent.3625:

Here we are in agreement, Travlane. I think it’s a bit unfair that they can mist through the door/portal of a tower/keep. No other class can do that or anything close to it with their downed ability … except warriors, though they die from vengeance. Given that elementalists are already excellent in sieges, I don’t see why they needed this.

thieves have a downed"shadow step" it wont go thru sally :P

I’m not intentionally hating on mist form or any other single skill. I’m just pointing out that a game mode that allows players of ANY level, with ANY type of gear, ANY consumable from pve, cannot by design ever be balanced. All you can do is try to balanced around stated objectives, which in WvW is capturing camps/towers/keeps primarly with side goals of killing/walking yaks, scouting etc. And i think with those stated objectives, stealth is fairly balanced.

I do think thief is WAY to reliant on stealth for everything however, would love to see thief given more gw1 assassin type builds/skills

Travlane.5948:

Sebrent.3625:

Here we are in agreement, Travlane. I think it’s a bit unfair that they can mist through the door/portal of a tower/keep. No other class can do that or anything close to it with their downed ability … except warriors, though they die from vengeance. Given that elementalists are already excellent in sieges, I don’t see why they needed this.

thieves have a downed"shadow step" it wont go thru sally :P

you misread what he said. He’s talking about eles here

Shemsu.8721:

TheGuy, is stealth balanced in WvW. NOTHING is balanced in WvW. WvW by design is an unbalanced enviroment. Is it balanced that a blocking char or mist form ele, or mesmer with distortion up still counts as taking a supply camp but a thief in stealth does not? No its not balanced. because WvW by design is unbalanced

And you know what I agreed with this for a very long time. Someone would kitten about mesmer confusion or ele mobility and i would cite this. Anet nerfed those things for WvW including retal. Situation has changed. This argument is no longer good. Anet has decided that certain things are OP in WvW number one on that list was culling and stealth lest you forget the nerf we ate just a few months back.

Sebrent.3625:

Here we are in agreement, Travlane. I think it’s a bit unfair that they can mist through the door/portal of a tower/keep. No other class can do that or anything close to it with their downed ability … except warriors, though they die from vengeance. Given that elementalists are already excellent in sieges, I don’t see why they needed this.

Technically warrior can and get rezed on the inside but I see your point.

randomfightfan.4091:

The mesmer vid is a bit outdated but still relevant. The burst still blows thief out of the water. I did the numbers according to that vid, they can hit 34k burst combo.

Actually, that mesmer vid depended on a brief (1 patch) Mesmer buff that allowed Mesmers to stack crazy amounts of might using shatters. And also a bug that allowed Mesmers to shatter clones twice (and kept scaling for the number of clones).

If you did it right, you could shatter 3 clones giving 9 stacks of might for 10 seconds then quickly get up 3 more clones for a 6 (7 including IP) clone mind wrack.

Edit: I also forgot about stacking 5-15 stacks of vulnerability on the first shatter (still works)

Might is now 1 stack per clone. And you can’t multiple shatter clones anymore.

Until they apply Spvp stats and gear to wvw, and remove all food and pve items, that argument will remain valid

randomfightfan.4091:

Cute that you’re trying to argue against something I wrote without actually reading it. I straight up said it was a dream burst in the thread.

I’m sorry, I was unfamiliar with the term “dream burst”. Though, what you actually said was:

I did the numbers according to that vid, they can hit 34k burst combo.

When most people “do the numbers according to a video”, they add up the numbers they saw from a given burst.

As I already said once before, the largest numbers you saw were due to vulnerability. Dodging one of the two shatters would have prevented it. Either they would not have 25 stacks of vulnerability, or they would have avoided the direct damage from Mind Wrack. Dodging the immobilize would have allowed them to simply move which often causes shatters to miss as well (read the Mesmer forum for more info on how bad AI affects shatters).

You also claim that:

In the time it takes to get the mes/warrior combo off, thief can get theirs off + 1hs.

But you completely ignore the time it takes to summon 3 illusions, close, hit blurred frenzy, shatter, summon 3 more illusions, and shatter again.

You also ignore how one class’s burst is largely invisible while the others are not.

I love that you admit:

I straight up said it was a dream burst in the thread. It isn’t very likely to happen but it is possible. Btw, there is no 34k in the video b/c in the parts where he landed 10k blured, the guy was down before the shatters would hit.

Large numbers on people when they are downed are not impressive. Ever noticed you’re getting higher numbers against a downed player when you auto-attack them?

randomfightfan.4091:

Arcane Thievery does no damage … yours does a considerable amount of damage

it also removes conditions from you and puts them on the target.

This is “great” on a 45 sec cooldown against condition builds since they will only every put conditions on you once every 45 seconds.
It’s also “great” that people who use boons only use them once every 45 seconds.
It’s also “great” that people can evade, line-of-sight, block, blind, dodge this one skill and now you can’t steal/transfer.
It’s great that a thief can mess up and then try again and steal the boons. Training wheels ftw.

randomfightfan.4091:

Stealth is amazing because more CC abilities that would prevent you from escaping require you to have a target. This coupled with thief’s high mobility makes them by far the best at disengaging from fights. The devs talked about this in the latest state of the game as well … check it out.

true, but thief is SUPPOSED to work like that. They are supposed to be hard to pin down but blow up if they get pinned down. Don’t see a problem here.

The problem is how it is abused. If a thief is losing a fight, they can soft reset it by constantly restealthing, especially in WvW with nearby NPCs or when fighting a Mesmer, Ranger, or any other class that makes use of dumb AI that are easy C&D targets.

A Thief can fight you and reset the fight constantly until they win the fight. The rest of us mere mortals die when we’re losing a fight. There is a reason Thieves are the most prominent roamers … they don’t really have anything to fear. If they see something, they can avoid fighting it. Heck, they can engage it, realize it’s a bad idea, and still avoid the fight.

Sure, some other classes have great mobility … but they can still be CC’d by whoever has them targeted.

A dead thief is either bad, unlucky, or testing something out.

Shemsu.8721:

Until they apply Spvp stats and gear to wvw, and remove all food and pve items, that argument will remain valid

Not in Anet’s eyes. You act like we all came here complaining for nerfs. I called it but neever asked for it. A net decided this not us. I play D/P I love it but it is OP. They decide whats OP in WvW and some things are so imbalanced they are too imbalanced in their eyes.

that’s the way the world works. Governments have social aid but they never said everyone must have the same amount (western ideology at least). In real life somethings are considered ok to be imbalanced and others aren’t.

@Shemzu: I agree with you that Thief needs to be less dependent on stealth. I think we disagree on the level at which thieves currently depend on stealth with me leaning towards the thief community thinking they depend on it a bit more than they have to.

I disagree with you about balance in WvW. Anything I can bring to WvW, you can bring to. If I eat food, you can too. If I use oil, you can too. If I have X gear, you can too. The difference between WvW and sPvP is that you have to work to get your stuff for WvW while in sPvP it’s just given to you (hence one of the reasons for the popularity of sPvP … plenty of kids hate working for things).

Sebrent.3625:

randomfightfan.4091:

Cute that you’re trying to argue against something I wrote without actually reading it. I straight up said it was a dream burst in the thread.

I’m sorry, I was unfamiliar with the term “dream burst”.

As I already said once before, the largest numbers you saw were due to vulnerability. Dodging one of the two shatters would have prevented it. Either they would not have 25 stacks of vulnerability, or they would have avoided the direct damage from Mind Wrack. Dodging the immobilize would have allowed them to simply move which often causes shatters to miss as well (read the Mesmer forum for more info on how bad AI affects shatters).

You also claim that:

In the time it takes to get the mes/warrior combo off, thief can get theirs off + 1hs.

But you completely ignore the time it takes to summon 3 illusions, close, hit blurred frenzy, shatter, summon 3 more illusions, and shatter again.

You also ignore how one class’s burst is largely invisible while the others are not.

I love that you admit:

I straight up said it was a dream burst in the thread. It isn’t very likely to happen but it is possible. Btw, there is no 34k in the video b/c in the parts where he landed 10k blured, the guy was down before the shatters would hit.

Large numbers on people when they are downed are not impressive. Ever noticed you’re getting higher numbers against a downed player when you auto-attack them?

1. it’s in the thread I linked and asked you to read, if you actually read it you would have seen the term. You had access to all the information, not my fault you didn’t read the thread.

2. Even without vulnerability, mesmer burst still blows thief burst out of the water.

3. Thieves simply can’t dish out vulnerability and gain might as fast/easily as a mesmer.

4. If you dodge the mug or cnd or anything on the thief burst the burst is lower. Problem with this argument is anything can be dodged so this argument is pointless and should be ignored. The point is burst is burst. We’re comparing potential numbers here, not dodges and potential counter-plays.

5. A mesmer can get off 3 clones/illusions/phantasms in under a second without much effort. They can even summon illusions that passively summon more illusions. They may need to use utilities in order to get illusions out fast but that’s not a counter argument. That’s like saying a thief needs to use bas venom to stun someone when initiating. It’s just a part of the build.

6. You misread what I wrote. I said they would have hit higher but the person got downed before the rest could be hit. If you’ve never hit someone as they went down I’ll explain it to you. When someone goes down, the next few hits against them are “invulnerable”. Basically what you think I wrote there was the complete opposite of what I actually wrote.

Sebrent.3625:

This is “great” on a 45 sec cooldown against condition builds since they will only every put conditions on you once every 45 seconds.
It’s also “great” that people who use boons only use them once every 45 seconds.
It’s also “great” that people can evade, line-of-sight, block, blind, dodge this one skill and now you can’t steal/transfer.
It’s great that a thief can mess up and then try again and steal the boons. Training wheels ftw.

It’s “great” that you’re using quotation marks to quote something that I never said. Pro quoting right there. Pro tip here, don’t use arcane thievery if you are being “evade, line-of-sight, block, blind, dodge”. I can see this being hard to do since it isn’t an insta cast skill… oh wait.

Edit. I did some research

Send three conditions you have to your foe and steal three of their boons.
Range: 900
Unblockable

It can’t even be blocked. Also larcenous (as well as any other attack in the game) is also subject to all those other ways to ignore the attack.

When used underwater, the activation is ½ second.
The Far-Reaching Manipulations trait increases the range from 900 to 1200.

Bug:
Far-Reaching Manipulations also changes the base cooldown to 40 seconds

What does this have over larcenous? It’s not predictable, it’s ranged, it’s insta cast, it removes/gives conditions, it can be used underwater, and it isn’t locked on a single weapon combo.

randomfightfan.4091:

1. it’s in the thread I linked and asked you to read, if you actually read it you would have seen the term. You had access to all the information, not my fault you didn’t read the thread.

As I said, the terminology you used, it often used to describe simply adding the numbers you see in the video.

If I linked a thread and then said “I’m going to kill you”, but it was misused in another thread such that it meant “I’m going to give you cupcakes with red food coloring in the icing”, it’d be the same as what you did. here.

Please see this xkcd if you still don’t understand: http://xkcd.com/169/

randomfightfan.4091:

2. Even without vulnerability, mesmer burst still blows thief burst out of the water.

Really? 16k * 0.75 = 12k. Thief can do that in their sleep against glass and even do that if I’m asleep on my Ranger when wearing full knight’s with 30 in WS (see, can’t get more toughness than that on a Ranger).

randomfightfan.4091:

3. Thieves simply can’t dish out vulnerability and gain might as fast/easily as a mesmer.

Might: Thief

• Trait: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Assassin
• Trait: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Power_of_Inertia
• Trait: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signets_of_Power
• Trait: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Thrill_of_the_Crime
• Trait: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Venomous_Strength

Might: Mesmer

• Greatsword: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirror_Blade
• Staff: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Winds_of_Chaos … random
• Trait: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shattered_Strength

Vulnerability: Thief

• MH Pistol: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Body_Shot
• OH Dagger: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cloak_and_Dagger
• Utility: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Skale_Venom
• Trait: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sundering_Strikes

Vulnerability: Mesmer

• Sword Auto Chain: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mind_Gash and http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mind_Slash
• Greatsword: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirror_Blade
• Staff: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Winds_of_Chaos … random
• Trait: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Illusion_of_Vulnerability … requires interrupt
• Trait: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rending_Shatter
• Trait: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dazzling

While we can only pick 2 of those 3 weapon sets at a time and the traits are quite limited in how they can be leveraged, sure. Mesmer has more options here, lol. I won’t deny that if you let a Mesmer get a full 3 illusions + illusionary persona shatter on you with Diversion that you’re likely to get 25 stacks of vulnerability. Just please recognize the significant investment in traits and cooldowns required to get this.

randomfightfan.4091:

4. If you dodge the mug or cnd or anything on the thief burst the burst is lower. Problem with this argument is anything can be dodged so this argument is pointless and should be ignored. The point is burst is burst. We’re comparing potential numbers here, not dodges and potential counter-plays.

You’re not comparing numbers though. You’re dreaming them, remember?

randomfightfan.4091:

5. A mesmer can get off 3 clones/illusions/phantasms in under a second without much effort.

There is only one mesmer ability that gives 2 clones, Mirror Images, and it’s on a 36 to 45 sec cooldown (depends on traits).

Everything else summons only one illusion.

randomfightfan.4091:

They can even summon illusions that passively summon more illusions.

Oh we can, eh? Do please tell me what this magical skill is as I’d love to have it.

randomfightfan.4091:

They may need to use utilities in order to get illusions out fast but that’s not a counter argument. That’s like saying a thief needs to use bas venom to stun someone when initiating. It’s just a part of the build.

Actually, it is. Someone can’t kill your bas venom with random cleaves, AOE, etc.

Your bas venom is not victim to the bad AI that plagues GW2 … go read about shatters that happen nowhere near the target.

Your bas venom doesn’t randomly decide to a nearby non-aggro’d NPC instead of going after your target once you dodge roll.

Countering illusions does not require a stunbreaker.

randomfightfan.4091:

Sebrent.3625:

This is “great” on a 45 sec cooldown against condition builds since they will only every put conditions on you once every 45 seconds.
It’s also “great” that people who use boons only use them once every 45 seconds.
It’s also “great” that people can evade, line-of-sight, block, blind, dodge this one skill and now you can’t steal/transfer.
It’s great that a thief can mess up and then try again and steal the boons. Training wheels ftw.

It’s “great” that you’re using quotation marks to quote something that I never said. Pro quoting right there. Pro tip here, don’t use arcane thievery if you are being “evade, line-of-sight, block, blind, dodge”. I can see this being hard to do since it isn’t an insta cast skill… oh wait.

Edit. I did some research

Send three conditions you have to your foe and steal three of their boons.
Range: 900
Unblockable

It can’t even be blocked. Also larcenous (as well as any other attack in the game) is also subject to all those other ways to ignore the attack.

When used underwater, the activation is ½ second.
The Far-Reaching Manipulations trait increases the range from 900 to 1200.

Bug:
Far-Reaching Manipulations also changes the base cooldown to 40 seconds

What does this have over larcenous? It’s not predictable, it’s ranged, it’s insta cast, it removes/gives conditions, it can be used underwater, and it isn’t locked on a single weapon combo.

If you miss, you can do it again. If a Mesmer misses, they have to wait for their cooldown.

Additionally, yours does a significant amount of damage. That is always applicable when it hits. Transferring conditions is situational and is not very helpful when your condition damage is garbage.

okay so mesmers can do 12k with just their shatters and no vuln. They still apply vuln with their shatters and still get that nice lets say 8k blured (since no vuln here). That’s still 20k. Thief can’t do that anymore and they sure as hell aren’t invuln while doing so.

They can even summon illusions that passively summon more illusions.
Oh we can, eh? Do please tell me what this magical skill is as I’d love to have it.

scepter auto attack. It’s not very magical, it’s quite basic.

Actually, it is. Someone can’t kill your bas venom with random cleaves, AOE, etc.

Thieves get to apply confusion, bleed, cripple, and w/e else (killing an illusion can do against the opponent) when they are subjected to a venom. Also, venoms (or anything else but invis) don’t massively confuse the target, make it hard to find which mesmer is real, and don’t deal damage (either really high or really low).

Countering illusions does not require a stunbreaker.

you have a shatter that dazes and all your illusions and shatters can give conditions. Bas venom is one and done, your illusions never go away.

Additionally, yours does a significant amount of damage. That is always applicable when it hits. Transferring conditions is situational and is not very helpful when your condition damage is garbage.

Condition removal is always amazing. You can even transfer chill and immobilize to your target so it doesn’t matter if your condition damage is junk, it will always be a useful skill. Lastly, larcenous doesn’t hit any higher than the auto attacks. the 1st 2 are weak but still do roughtly 75% of the damage of larcenous. The 3rd one does either the same or higher than larcenous. Also larcenous is a 2nd part attack so you will always know it is coming when you see the thief do their little spin around move. It makes it quite easy to avoid as the active is only up for a few seconds before going away.

If someone is doing 8k to you with blurred frenzy, you are glassy and most definitely not wearing exotics while they are a cannon in exotics + ascended with food and oils.

Your knowledge of the Mesmer is obviously limited. I’m still waiting to hear about:

illusions that passively summon more illusions.

Sebrent.3625:

If someone is doing 8k to you with blurred frenzy, you are glassy and most definitely not wearing exotics while they are a cannon in exotics + ascended with food and oils.

Your knowledge of the Mesmer is obviously limited. I’m still waiting to hear about:

illusions that passively summon more illusions.

read up edit I see I posted that one first and wasn’t a part of my subsequent edits to respond to all your messages. I’ll explain a lil something about mesmer that you don’t seem to know. Mesmer scepter auto summons an illusion on the 3rd hit. The illusion uses scepter auto as its own attack and summons other illusions on their 3rd hit. One thing that made me lol HARD was

Your knowledge of the Mesmer is obviously limited. I’m still waiting to hear about

immediately after you posted http://xkcd.com/169/ . Irony at its best. I’m going to ignore you after this post since you seem to have a very biased opinion and limited knowledge of what we’re talking about. Not to mention you’re dodging points instead of answering things brought up in the thread. Thanks for having a good convo up until now but this had become a circular argument as is boring me.

a glass mesmer can easily do 8k to another glass (who isn’t using a defensive aura or protection). If you need help achieving that, try using the food that gives 100 power or prec with 10% crit dmg. You also get to use an oil that further increases your dmg. Make sure you have fury before using your blured or else it won’t crit as often. Critting is kind of a big deal for zerker builds. That’s why the mug nerf hurts our burst so hard.

doesnt matter….thief burst is NOT playable. never was. even with mug doing 6k. ill show you why :P heres a video

sure i can hit big. but lets see it in a small fight. i added 4k hp to full zerk build so nobody can say well thats a stupid idea to run zerk. this is thief zerk build that also has HP.

as you will see its just not viable…..period. doesnt matter how strong thieves can cap at….it is nto playable :p

@random: blurred frenzy does its damage over a 2 second channel during which the mesmer is immobilized and performing a very obvious attack. if it hits for 8k, it is in the scenario I laid out before and the person hit needs to get better.

@Travlane:
(1) Making a video to prove your own point doesn’t really help since you can play horribly intentionally, which happened. If I had a better rig, I could go intentionally play like garbage on my Mesmer to “show how bad it is”.

There are plenty of videos out there showing the complete opposite.

(2) Glass cannon doesn’t mean you have to take all signets and pop them at the beginning. A good glass cannon uses their utilities for stunbreaking, condition removal, mobility, etc.

to be fair trav, you made a lot of mistakes in that vid but that doesn’t change the fact that the build that does involve really high spike, also basically = your death if there’s more than 1 person. Next time you try that, get infiltrator’s signet instead of agility. It’s a free blink to use over steal so you can stick onto that 1 person you’re fighting.

It’s easy to say that you could have killed one of those guys super fast and moved onto the other. Thing is though, that was with you being able to set up 100% and being allowed to open. That is also you unstealthed, so you’re allowed to use cnd as a BIG part of the burst. If you started in stealth (from an ally thief), you wouldn’t even be able to use the skill without 1. revealing yourself or 2. staying revealed and wasting a massive amount of initiative.

@randomfightfan yeah i still have 1 hand and its hard for me to play. but i didnt put much effort into fighting as i knew i was doomed if there is more than 1 person around anyway. was just trying to show that basically i could out dps both of them put together but have no real chance of winning a fight against 2 average players or better. yes i could have started from stealth but it would decrease my damage. if u want super high dmg that peopel QQ about it comes at a price….HP…defense…utilities wasted….basically makes you a sitting duck!

now on the other hand with same effort and mistakes its easier on a different build :

Sebrent.3625:

@random: blurred frenzy does its damage over a 2 second channel during which the mesmer is immobilized and performing a very obvious attack. if it hits for 8k, it is in the scenario I laid out before and the person hit needs to get better.

@Travlane:
(1) Making a video to prove your own point doesn’t really help since you can play horribly intentionally, which happened. If I had a better rig, I could go intentionally play like garbage on my Mesmer to “show how bad it is”.

There are plenty of videos out there showing the complete opposite.

(2) Glass cannon doesn’t mean you have to take all signets and pop them at the beginning. A good glass cannon uses their utilities for stunbreaking, condition removal, mobility, etc.

Their are no other recent videos that show 18-19k backstabs and do well doing it. maybe in duels……perhaps…but not in anything were 2 people are attacking you and have the common sense to bring stun breaks. u can change the whole signets to all defensive/stealth utilities and i still would not have survived that killing both. yet in the following video…..its cuppycake

Travlane.5948:

image/diversion are long cooldowns? mug is 45 secs but that was nerfed.

Lets be fair here, Mug is a much lesser fraction of thief damage and is much harder to see coming, Mug is also used as a positioning tool and can have numerous other benefits like poison, weakness, daze, stealth, skill recharge, initiative, healing, AOE Boons, and boon stealing that shares those stolen boons. It’s also possible to easily lower the CD on Mug. You also get a skill stolen from your target that ranges from useful to incredibly good.

The only thing shatters can do that mug isn’t capable of doing and doing better + more reliably is damage, confusion and condition removal. Also shatters are capable of stacking might slightly better. While the damage difference is indeed large, clones are also infinitely easier to avoid and can be killed.

he said they CAN hit burst for 34k. not a fallacy.
point is thieves werent the only ones that could do uber burst dmg.

You should really post a video for these kinds of things instead of expecting people to take your word for it. The video should also show HOW the burst was achieved, that way people can evaluate how reasonably this burst can be pulled off and how long it takes to achieve this burst. This also shows how easy the burst is to avoid and see coming.

Information is the friend of anyone looking to make a valid point. Anyone can make claims and throw out numbers that, while true, are pretty meaningless in and of themselves.

the build does not crumble against anyone. its not made for a 1 v 1. its made so they are lost in the fray ……and snipe out players for huge dmg….OP dmg…

Essentially the build relies on others to be able to do it’s burst and hopes and prays not to get reflected, evaded, hit an Aegis, get interrupted, get blinded, or get blocked by someone tankier. It has the potential to do brokenly high damage on kill shot, IF things work out right. Personally I love those builds, they “assume the position” and I ruin it. Pretty much every build I’ve ever ran has a way to screw it up.

@Ralathar

- the only thing good about steal is the poison and positioning. the rest is horrendous.
-Steal doesnt cause weakness. Poison does. i get where u are going but im being 100
-have seen guardian teleport do 3800-4k dmg AND burn. no nerf here?
-shatters are uncomparebly stronger and they have 4 x more F mechanics.

@ general

thieves have always been good and were OP in the roaming sense…and iknow im beating a dead horse here but ROAMING solo = stupidity. you deserve to die. you could meet a 100 zerg or a 20 zerg or a 3 man squad capping camps. either way you are dead. a thief is rarely usefull other than venom share/blast finish in a zerg….his bone is that he ’Could" burst (past tense) and escape. now there is no burst. just a 2 hit combo. thief is still pretty good in 1 v 1 but they do lose alot. nubs lose against thieves alot its true woahhhhhhhoah it is truuuuuuuuuuue. they have dumbed this game down for players since gw1 to increase a larger age parameter in target audience. they have done well but they left some classes that take skill/exp to play like d/d ele or s/d thief and d/p thief. hard classes to play. warrior is the “starter” build (not that its weak…far from it) but it is easy to play and do decent to well at.

Thieves are challenging to use? Hardly. Challenging to master? Fully. I’ve had several thieves try to gank me using their typical combo, but freak out and run away when I counter it in some way. It’s easy to be a noob ganker, but there are too many 1 trick pony thieves that have no idea what to do. Hell, I’ve had the same thief try the SAME tactic 4 times in a 20 minute Window, failing each time.

However I’ve been killed by thieves of skill… imo thieves are prefectly fine as is… They can do considerable damage in a short time, can play slippery to make up for lower stats, etc. Most of the 1vX videos I’ve seen of thieves in wvw, their targets are just morons running around like chickens with their heads cut off. Hearing thieves complaining of low hp and Armor are tiring. Most survivability comes from tactic, and you don’t need to be burst or gtfo if you have tactic. When playing my thief I do just fine wearing my target down before bursting. Although my burst isn’t as big as most thieves, it’s more than enough to “finish the job”.

Lastly; as far as going with the zerg, it doesn’t make much sense for a thief to bring tons of group support to me. They have some, and offer some combo fields but they shine in roaming and/or ambush, as to be expected from a thief.

PhelanDisturbed.1650:

Thieves are challenging to use? Hardly. Challenging to master? Fully. I’ve had several thieves try to gank me using their typical combo, but freak out and run away when I counter it in some way. It’s easy to be a noob ganker, but there are too many 1 trick pony thieves that have no idea what to do. Hell, I’ve had the same thief try the SAME tactic 4 times in a 20 minute Window, failing each time.

However I’ve been killed by thieves of skill… imo thieves are prefectly fine as is… They can do considerable damage in a short time, can play slippery to make up for lower stats, etc. Most of the 1vX videos I’ve seen of thieves in wvw, their targets are just morons running around like chickens with their heads cut off. Hearing thieves complaining of low hp and Armor are tiring. Most survivability comes from tactic, and you don’t need to be burst or gtfo if you have tactic. When playing my thief I do just fine wearing my target down before bursting. Although my burst isn’t as big as most thieves, it’s more than enough to “finish the job”.

Lastly; as far as going with the zerg, it doesn’t make much sense for a thief to bring tons of group support to me. They have some, and offer some combo fields but they shine in roaming and/or ambush, as to be expected from a thief.

nicely said. i agree with most of it. same as i stated tho: thieves are very challenging to play or play “well” rather. same with d/d ele….any nub can switch elements and spam skills then switch again but switching ot the right one at the right time and choosing a skill order appropriate to the situation is not so easy. same with thieves.

Travlane.5948:

@Ralathar
- the only thing good about steal is the poison and positioning. the rest is horrendous.

Boon ripping and Boon sharing is suddenly horrendous? I mean you can provide 10s BASE might, fury, swiftness, and vigor to allies around you while also sharing up to two boons stolen off of the enemy. Only way I can see you calling that horrendous is if you are playing an extremely selfish build. 1 vs 1 is not the only build tyvm. Also +3 initiative on steal and 3 additional initiative with those two major traits :P.

2k dmg + 2k heal also isn’t exactly bad. The skill you get from stealing ranges from OK to REALLY GOOD as well.

-Steal doesnt cause weakness. Poison does. i get where u are going but im being 100

When you can trait steal to poison and poison causes 3 seconds of weakness with the 15 point minor Deadly Arts trait it’s the same thing. Isn’t that semantics?

-have seen guardian teleport do 3800-4k dmg AND burn. no nerf here?

45 second timer, removes it’s use as a stun break, and means he isn’t using other utilities. Also means he has quite a bit of damage in his build or you neglected to do your job easily avoiding damage. If it’s the first just deal with his boons and he is in trouble. If it’s the second you are in serious trouble that no build or profession should allow you to get out of. Lack of skill should be punished.

-shatters are uncomparebly (not a word) stronger and they have 4 x more F mechanics.

They are infinitely more avoidable and can be killed. Furthermore half of the benefits you can trait steal for cannot be stopped as they fire without a target much less without a hit. Steal also cannot be kited to pick up mob aggro (LOL @ mesmers fighting you near mobs, especially groups of mobs or vets).

Because of the much more severe limitations and vastly lesser utility of shatters, of course they have a much bigger damage potential.

Also lets be incredibly fair here. Stealth and steal are both in reality class traits of thieves. Shatters and stealth are class traits of mesmer. Thief can constantly apply stealth, keep high damage and mobility, and still derive 90% of their strengths. Mesmer’s must give up alot to stealth to a significant degree, most notably damage.

when i say horrendous….we have a 45 sec timer on an F mechanic that is no longer a huge dmg skill. boon ripping is never traited for as its more skill for a “lets deal dmg” kind of build even tho its in “condition” trait line. even if u steal them its a 45 sec recharge for probably …on average… a 5-6 sec boon.
2k dmg? pfft averages 800-1100 on average attack build. 2k would be full traited 10k hp kind of zerk build.
might fury swift is good but again its more of a damage dealer still stuck in condi line.
nope.not really semantics…i understand what you mean…it is in addition to but not directly relating to or having a sub definition there of…. but yeah its kinda splitting hairs like saying aegis guardian F mechanics cause burning. do they ? no…..but aegis causes burning if traited.

my point on his 4k top end INSTANT dmg skill…. was that its not far of from the 6k mug dmg. but its not tweaked or downgraded…… so you cant really avoid a teleport dmg skill unless u are already mid roll :P so idk what u mean by not doing my job. nobody can respond at a -.01 sec response time.

and no matter how you look at it….added traits or not F Steal doesnt compare to any other classes F mechanics….

it’s more of a 3s boon steal. I wouldn’t even call it a steal, it’s more of a boon rip. The enemy could have 25 stacks of might, and if you’re lucky that they only have 1-2 boons (as might is always one of the last ones to be stolen for w/e reason), you will only receive 1 stack of might. Bountiful is great for the 15s aoe vigor and boon rip but not for the steal. It doesn’t steal the stacks from stacking boons. This doesn’t just mean against things like might, if someone is stacking the duration of lets say retaliation, it will fully rip retal but you will only gain it for the duration of 1 stack (3 ish seconds). My build doesn’t have any vigor in it but I’m still thinking about taking it out those 20 points into trickery just b/c it isn’t really that worth it unless the cd on steal gets reduced.

yeah thief F mechanics are quite lacking. i mean just look at is in the perspective of what each classes does without traiting into them. steal is just a gap closer and usually dont get a useful item. useful is the feathers/whirl boons are ok but since thieves invis alot they dont get much use out of it…