Guild Wars 2

Travlane.5948:

well considering ur about 5k higher HP …have clones as meatshields…phantasms as meat shields…..blocks…invulrnerabilty….and invis….id say no they arent :P ….a thief can always go down faster than a mesmer: FACT.

if any guardian dies in 2 secs they suck : ALSO FACT

Clones take hits against a good player how? How about phantasms?

Blocks? How are those different from evades? dodges? … aside from being less useful against “unblockable” attacks.

Invisibility? How is that different than a thief who has access to so much more?

What exactly are these “facts” based on? You’re again stating something as “this is a fact” but not contributing what your “facts” are based on. “77% of all statistics are made up!” lol.

Does a thief that dies in 2 seconds not suck? Why not?

blocks are differnt bc they are skill activated and class specific. every class has dodge evade. thief only has 1 unblockable attack so not like thats a hard counter or anything.

everything i said was fact. got them all from gw2 official site. idk maybe thats not a credible site? LOL pffft the best thief in the world running full zerk will die in 2 secs… :P (running blind powder and shadow refuge is NOT full zerk)

no matter how you argue it thieves are the most squishy and the potentially fastest character to kill in the game.

if the clones arent taking hits then the mesmer isnt using them right. as usual ill offer an IN GAME CHALLENGE with video ….(this being the 9th or so time) and u still wont take it. you are just looking worse every comment….there are plenty of ways to prove a problem/debate. you wont take any. u just wanna use opinion.

ATTENTION ALL READERS: would you rather see an in game experiment on and uncut video OR………….. just take a random players word that he is right?

hrm

Travlane.5948:

blocks are differnt bc they are skill activated and class specific. every class has dodge evade.

Every class has dodge rolls, yes.
Not every class has evade.
Evasions are activated skills … look them up or simply scroll through some of my previous posts … I’ve mentioned them before since Rangers, Thieves, etc. have them.

Travlane.5948:

thief only has 1 unblockable attack so not like thats a hard counter or anything.

Oh really?
Unblockable Thief skills:

• http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Choking_Gas
• http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Shot
• http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Larcenous_Strike
• All thief traps are unblockable too, but most thieves don’t use them, so meh.

Was it a “fact” too that thieves only have 1 unblockable skill?

Do you know how many attacks Mesmers have that are unblockable? :-p
How about how many rangers have?
Or any other classes?

Travlane.5948:

everything i said was fact. got them all from gw2 official site. idk maybe thats not a credible site? LOL pffft the best thief in the world running full zerk will die in 2 secs… :P (running blind powder and shadow refuge is NOT full zerk)

Where does it say this on the official gw2 site? Please, I would love that link … or is this another “fact”, “graph”, “figure”, or “percent” that you’ve posted.

Travlane.5948:

no matter how you argue it thieves are the most squishy and the potentially fastest character to kill in the game.

Potentially? What are the parameters for this potential?
Potentially, any glass cannon is the fastest character to kill in the game.

If you’re going to argue about having the lowest base hp/toughness … that belongs to Elementalists, and, newsflash, not all Elementalists have protection on them.

Travlane.5948:

if the clones arent taking hits then the mesmer isnt using them right. as usual ill offer an IN GAME CHALLENGE with video ….(this being the 9th or so time) and u still wont take it. you are just looking worse every comment….there are plenty of ways to prove a problem/debate. you wont take any. u just wanna use opinion.

ATTENTION ALL READERS: would you rather see an in game experiment on and uncut video OR………….. just take a random players word that he is right?

hrm

LMAO. Since you can’t actually present any basis for what you’re saying, you’re again playing “schoolyard kid”. That’s cute.

How would this one work? One of us stands naked and the other ones tries to kill them as quickly as possible?

Travlane.5948:

well considering ur about 5k higher HP …have clones as meatshields…phantasms as meat shields…..blocks…invulrnerabilty….and invis….id say no they arent :P ….a thief can always go down faster than a mesmer: FACT.

if any guardian dies in 2 secs they suck : ALSO FACT

My rational side tells me that people purporting things as fact in an aggressive and overbearing fashion normally need proof to have any sort of credibility. 5K higher base HP and the potential to absorb hits with temporary “meat bags” (that’s the word I want to use :P) does not necessarily mean they will survive longer than someone else that does not have that.

For instance, guardians have some of the best survivability in the game if they build for it. But there are a fair amount of situations other classes will easily out-survive them.

These sort of complexities is what makes balancing classes and judging class so very difficult. The reality is that each class and indeed each individual build ranges in exact theoretical capability depending on each unique situation. This is further modified up or down by the skill of the players involved on each side and indeed the builds the enemy and allied players are using.

Blanket statements are very rarely reliable statements. Please remember that in the future and also I would ask that you stop giving out blatantly incorrect information as well. You are not an expert, this is extremely clear, you are an average player at best. Please carry your discussions as such instead of making weak and untrue statements others can easily counter in the attempt to filibuster a thread with the sheer volume of verbiage you cast about seemingly without thought.

randomfightfan.4091:

What’s wrong with being a single target master that picks off a dozen people in a zerg fight while tossing out random cluster bombs in the down time?

I am sorry but if you are able to do that in a zerg vs zerg fight you need better allies and certainly better opponents. Neither are doing their job well if you have the time and leisure to do that.

Keep in mind I’m used to being a thief target as well with my main being a sheer glass full rampagers staff Ele. I’ve experienced both my share of having thieves jump me and stopping thieves attempting to jump others. As part of a team we watch over each other and any brazen thieves are smashed very quickly and we don’t lose many to them.

Note: I’ve been downed by such thieves quite a few times. I’ve died because of it very few times however. THAT is what teamwork does.

Additional Note: Your time would also be better spent killing already downed people. Power thieves are very good at that, it prevents rezzs and gives the team rallies. You also have the mobility to get in, slaughter them, and get out quickly. This instead of soloing somebody on their own at the edge who’s worth was questionable to begin with.

Ralathar.7236:

randomfightfan.4091:

What’s wrong with being a single target master that picks off a dozen people in a zerg fight while tossing out random cluster bombs in the down time?

I am sorry but if you are able to do that in a zerg vs zerg fight you need better allies and certainly better opponents. Neither are doing their job well if you have the time and leisure to do that.

Keep in mind I’m used to being a thief target as well with my main being a sheer glass full rampagers staff Ele. I’ve experienced both my share of having thieves jump me and stopping thieves attempting to jump others. As part of a team we watch over each other and any brazen thieves are smashed very quickly and we don’t lose many to them.

Note: I’ve been downed by such thieves quite a few times. I’ve died because of it very few times however. THAT is what teamwork does.

Ralathar, do you find yourself targeting other Thieves more because you main a Thief and thus understand it better than any other class? This seems to be the case for me with Mesmers. Most hate fighting them, but I find it easy … though I’m sure running into Osicat would change my mind, lol.

Ralathar.7236:

randomfightfan.4091:

What’s wrong with being a single target master that picks off a dozen people in a zerg fight while tossing out random cluster bombs in the down time?

I am sorry but if you are able to do that in a zerg vs zerg fight you need better allies and certainly better opponents. Neither are doing their job well if you have the time and leisure to do that.

Keep in mind I’m used to being a thief target as well with my main being a sheer glass full rampagers staff Ele. I’ve experienced both my share of having thieves jump me and stopping thieves attempting to jump others. As part of a team we watch over each other and any brazen thieves are smashed very quickly and we don’t lose many to them.

Note: I’ve been downed by such thieves quite a few times. I’ve died because of it very few times however. THAT is what teamwork does.

humm… are you saying thieves need a buff? :P

I think the emphasis would be on brazen thieves. Those who try to jump someone in the middle of a group.

Anyone willing to do that and not jumping the glass cannon in the group is asking for a trip to the waypoint.

Sebrent.3625:

Unblockable Thief skills:

• http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Choking_Gas
• http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Shot
• http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Larcenous_Strike
• All thief traps are unblockable too, but most thieves don’t use them, so meh.

Was it a “fact” too that thieves only have 1 unblockable skill?

Do you know how many attacks Mesmers have that are unblockable? :-p
How about how many rangers have?
Or any other classes?

Choking gas is a joke, that should not be counted as an attack, it is a debuff and nothing else. Shadow shot only has the projectile portion as unblockable. The projectile deals 0 damage while the melee hit gets blocked. If you use it for that then you are just using a very expensive gap closer.

As for unblockable I don’t know about most classes but I know that necro and warrior have lots. Eles, guards, and mesmers do all have something that goes through evasion though. Most of the ones I’m thinking about are underwater skills but they’re still there.

Travlane.5948:

no matter how you argue it thieves are the most squishy and the potentially fastest character to kill in the game.

Potentially? What are the parameters for this potential?
Potentially, any glass cannon is the fastest character to kill in the game.

If you’re going to argue about having the lowest base hp/toughness … that belongs to Elementalists, and, newsflash, not all Elementalists have protection on them.

Elementalist and guardian and thief all share the same base hp. The reason why ele and guard have such low hp is due to balancing. If they had any more hp they would never die ever. Imagine if guardian had warrior hp. How would you kill that thing? Imagine if d/d bunker ele had warrior hp, how would you kill that thing?

Sebrent.3625:

Ralathar, do you find yourself targeting other Thieves more because you main a Thief and thus understand it better than any other class? This seems to be the case for me with Mesmers. Most hate fighting them, but I find it easy … though I’m sure running into Osicat would change my mind, lol.

I play everything. Key thing here is that thieves are great for downing people even in the middle of a group but have a much harder time finishing people. Stealth stomp is great for small numbers of people and specific weapons/builds. But others can pressure the thief away or force him to die for the kill, or CC him with an area CC. If you react quick enough your starting your casts while he is downing the person, specifically if the other person is decent and uses defensive or mobility abilities. If you choose the right abilities they are forced to leave them be while they get picked up. Even something seemingly harmless like frozen ground or shockwave can easily doom that thief.

Perhaps the greatest equalizing factor here is that most people play thieves in such a linear way that it is easy to predict and counter them. Find target, zero in, spike, attempt to stomp. That encompasses 95% of power thieves.

humm… are you saying thieves need a buff? :P

I’m saying that playing a power thief squishy enough to spike people picking off people in a zerg is a good way to get a trip to the waypoint if you play against good players. It’s not that you are not capable, it’s that you are incorrectly applying your strengths to the situation. You do not have the survivability to finish someone off if you have the damage to spike them right around their friends in the zerg. Not against good players.

Finishing off downed players, guarding your back line, and countering thieves stupid enough to attempt to spike your players is a much better investiture of your time.

This is not anything particularly new. This is how any reasonably balanced stealth class has always worked.

@random: you have such faith in the fact that Guardian and Elementalist’s health are correct with regard to their skills, but you seem to not have that same faith when it comes to the Thief having that same base health with regard to the Thief’s skills. Why is that?

@Ralathar: I see :-) Sort of also why I’ll often target mesmers … especially if I see they’re a “shattercat” spec.

I think all thieves should pay attention to some of the details in Ralathar’s post. You’ll learn something.

I’m fine with thhieves having such low hp. I’m not fine with their hp being that low but not compensated elsewhere (compared to other classes)

randomfightfan.4091:

I’m fine with thhieves having such low hp. I’m not fine with their hp being that low but not compensated elsewhere (compared to other classes)

It’s compensated for. The difference is thieves have a more active defense style of play. Some classes have more passive defense. It’s hard to credibly complain about lack of defense when you don’t take advantage of what you have.

For example, d/d eles must actively use various skills for defense. Some of them have received nerfs and might receive more. They have lower damage than thieves for sure, and are far more predictable. Your average thief takes a few defensive skills, and yet since they are stealth related they instead use them for offense alot. This is called a tradeoff.

Meanwhile they ignore alot of other defensive options they have, even on the weapon sets they use!! This is why the insane focus on offense most thieves have ultimately ends up defeating them.

Ralathar.7236:

randomfightfan.4091:

I’m fine with thhieves having such low hp. I’m not fine with their hp being that low but not compensated elsewhere (compared to other classes)

It’s compensated for. The difference is thieves have a more active defense style of play. Some classes have more passive defense. It’s hard to credibly complain about lack of defense when you don’t take advantage of what you have.

For example, d/d eles must actively use various skills for defense. Some of them have received nerfs and might receive more. They have lower damage than thieves for sure, and are far more predictable. Your average thief takes a few defensive skills, and yet since they are stealth related they instead use them for offense alot. This is called a tradeoff.

Meanwhile they ignore alot of other defensive options they have, even on the weapon sets they use!! This is why the insane focus on offense most thieves have ultimately ends up defeating them.

you have a point here… but its a tiny bit different. eles cant LITERALLY mitigate dmg and heal ALOT. thieves can do neither …however its hard to say what thieves are compensated for. thieves have great in combat mobility plus stealth. which of those covers which of these:

10.8k hp
medium armor
low boon access (no defensives)
no blocks
no invulnerabilty
lack of AOE . (yes i know cluster)

not complaining but its hard to say which comes at what price. does low hp and medium armor make up for getting invis? and does no blocks/invl/lack of aoe/no def boons make up for the mobility? hard to say

Travlane.5948:

you have a point here… but its a tiny bit different. eles cant LITERALLY mitigate dmg and heal ALOT. thieves can do neither …however its hard to say what thieves are compensated for. thieves have great in combat mobility plus stealth. which of those covers which of these:

10.8k hp
medium armor
low boon access (no defensives)
no blocks
no invulnerabilty
lack of AOE . (yes i know cluster)

not complaining but its hard to say which comes at what price. does low hp and medium armor make up for getting invis? and does no blocks/invl/lack of aoe/no def boons make up for the mobility? hard to say

Bad choice of example, contrary to the opinion of the ele board that flips the frick out over every change, actually worse than the thief boards lol, ele survivability is going to be nerfed still.

So those boon wielding dagger bearing psychos? Expect to see more of their tears. Then again, so too will you eventually see the tears of stealth spec’d theives as they lower the stealth a bit to make room for bits of additional survivability.

Ralathar.7236:

le survivability is going to be nerfed still

Nerf the modifier in regen from 1.56 to 0.8. All classes affected.