Guild Wars 2

The subject line says it all.

I’m pretty much fed up with a class design allowing those who pick up the Thief class to spend less than a day with it and compete with some of the best DPS metagamers to ever put their hands on GW2…by pressing 2…a lot.

Now before you crazed defenders of all things Thief get all up in arms over another thread calling for a nerf, please read, let this idea bounce around in your head a bit, and then reply with an actual opinion.

Are you ready?

Are you sure?

Ok, here it is:

New sPvP and WvW Feature: Exhaustion “when activating the same non-auto-attack (#1 skill) weapon skill within 2 seconds that skill gains a 1.5 second cooldown that stacks in intensity.”

As far as I can tell this only effects skill spamming and doesn’t circumvent the initiative system, but rather encourages learning to play the class as intended. Pressing one key to victory is pandering to bad players and trivializing the class as a whole. Watching an initiative bar and playing Wack-A-Mole with the 2-key should not be the back bone of a play-style.

My biggest problem doesn’t stem from being attacked by this type of play style, oh no. I beat those kids like it’s a Chris Brown and Rihanna RP. The problem is my difficulty in learning the class. Everytime I try to get into it, I get myself into a situation in which repetitively pressing 2 is the best choice (cloak & dagger, backstab, they run…soooo heartseeker…still alive, still running, sooooo heartseeker…still not down? still running…heartseeker!) Other classes, of with I have 4 fully exoticed at 80, I’m forced to use something else, because the skill I’d like to use is on cool-down, so I have to figure out what to do with my other options. This is how I learn, and this prevents me from playing a non-2-spamming thief. I burn out my initiative pressing 2 and if it doesn’t kill them I stealth away and recover…and then try something else only to end up doing it again, which actually beats other thieves more often than anyone else, which is dumb, since I’ve collectively put in about 10 hours of game time into the class and only in sPvP.

If you are getting killed by a thief spamming 2, you are doing something wrong .

if u can dodge roll 2 x theres no way a thief can even get u under half. dont care even if ur full zerker. sorry man u r way off base here. besides this is another THIEF ONLY nerf. wont affect other classes. just thieves…thieves are weakest class if not 2nd weakest class overall out there. dare i say the cliche “L2P” ?

Just gonna throw this out there. Thieves tried using other weapon skills. Then Anet nerfed Dancing Dagger and Cloak and Dagger hard.
Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m gonna go Infiltrator’s Strike, Head Shot and Blackpowder someone to death.

Travlane.5948:

if u can dodge roll 2 x theres no way a thief can even get u under half. dont care even if ur full zerker. sorry man u r way off base here. besides this is another THIEF ONLY nerf. wont affect other classes. just thieves…thieves are weakest class if not 2nd weakest class overall out there. dare i say the cliche “L2P” ?

Firstly, no. You don’t dodge away from heartseeker spamming, you activate a block, cripple, immobilize, or daze/stun/knockback/knockdown, and then spike them.

Secondly, yes. I would love to L2P a thief, but thus far pressing 2 is my best option in way to many situations to bother learning more complex build options. Mobility, damage, stealth, all in one weapon set. Sure P/P is fun, but swapping back to d/d and 2 spamming someone after they’ve burnt endurance on my unload and pistol autos is often a guaranteed down for me, and the stealth stomp is just as easy…only fails if they fight back, which more often than not they just run scared.

“New sPvP and WvW Feature: Exhaustion “when activating the same non-auto-attack (#1 skill) weapon skill within 2 seconds that skill gains a 1.5 second cooldown that stacks in intensity.””

I would like the class defining thief skill initiative not to work because I don’t like it. I would also like to nerf this and give no other buffs to compensate.

@OBSCURE ONE….would u like me to show you a video of 2 …that way i dont hve to call u a liar :P? or just rediculous. what class are you and what armor set?

Exhaustion is already in the game, it’s called: running out of initiative. We are a spamming class. It’s called burst for a reason.

If you are under 25% against a power/crit thief, you SHOULD be getting HS spammed. It’s our best form of damage @ that hp level. Don’t blame them for using the most optimal skill for the occasion.

Have you tried Dagger/Dagger 4 or Dagger/Pistol 3?
Not sure what youre using, but those are your other options.

animalmom.1062:

I would like the class defining thief skill initiative not to work because I don’t like it. I would also like to nerf this and give no other buffs to compensate.

This suggestion doesn’t effect the initiative system any more than the Revealed debuff effects cloak and dagger. The longest duration of Exhaustion attainable is 3 seconds, as the CD prevents the thief from using this skill again within the 2 second time, it resets:

¹ Heartseeker
²Heartseeker
1.5 second cool-down
³Heartseeker within 2 seconds
3 second cool-down
⁴ start back at ¹

If you have the skill to avoid pressing 2 for .5 seconds, you will never see a 3 second cool down. I asked for actual opinions based on allowing this idea to bounce around your mind…apparently the idea didn’t have much room to bounce.

Travlane.5948:

@OBSCURE ONE….would u like me to show you a video of 2 …that way i dont hve to call u a liar :P? or just rediculous. what class are you and what armor set?

Within the context of what I’m talking about, Thief is the class. I’m using runes of the Scholar, sigils of force and sigils of fire (D/D, P/P), and a zerker amulet.

purgatoryz.6038:

Exhaustion is already in the game, it’s called: running out of initiative. We are a spamming class. It’s called burst for a reason.

If you are under 25% against a power/crit thief, you SHOULD be getting HS spammed. It’s our best form of damage @ that hp level. Don’t blame them for using the most optimal skill for the occasion.

Perhaps I’m old fashioned in thinking burst should require, skill, experience, talent, or an understanding of how game mechanics interact to reach an optimal damage potential…you know, like those seven other classes.

Being able to burst someone with well timed stealth and backstab is a respectable burst, and legitimate play-style. Being able to consistently beat and at least come close to beating people who have nearly a year of class experience on me with a class they’ve played since launch and I’ve only toyed with primarily by using one skill is a bad class design.

This would nerf a lot more viable builds than it would help to decrease heartseeker spamming. Condition D/D thieves who use death blossom (their only source of bleed aside from caltrops), the infamous cripspam s/d thieves, boon strip s/d thieves and s/p control thieves would all suffer.

I do think that they need to increase the after cast on heartseeker, because as of now it’s already a pretty spammy move even when you don’t intend on hitting it more than once.

lets drop the hypotheticals and look at what it is.

aint happening. if u dodge 2 of these you will have 85% hp and the thief 0 init.

this is a l2p issue.

Obscure One.4357:

The subject line says it all.

I’m pretty much fed up with a class design allowing those who pick up the Thief class to spend less than a day with it and compete with some of the best DPS metagamers to ever put their hands on GW2…by pressing 2…a lot.

Now before you crazed defenders of all things Thief get all up in arms over another thread calling for a nerf, please read, let this idea bounce around in your head a bit, and then reply with an actual opinion.

Are you ready?

Are you sure?

Ok, here it is:

New sPvP and WvW Feature: Exhaustion “when activating the same non-auto-attack (#1 skill) weapon skill within 2 seconds that skill gains a 1.5 second cooldown that stacks in intensity.”

As far as I can tell this only effects skill spamming and doesn’t circumvent the initiative system, but rather encourages learning to play the class as intended. Pressing one key to victory is pandering to bad players and trivializing the class as a whole. Watching an initiative bar and playing Wack-A-Mole with the 2-key should not be the back bone of a play-style.

My biggest problem doesn’t stem from being attacked by this type of play style, oh no. I beat those kids like it’s a Chris Brown and Rihanna RP. The problem is my difficulty in learning the class. Everytime I try to get into it, I get myself into a situation in which repetitively pressing 2 is the best choice (cloak & dagger, backstab, they run…soooo heartseeker…still alive, still running, sooooo heartseeker…still not down? still running…heartseeker!) Other classes, of with I have 4 fully exoticed at 80, I’m forced to use something else, because the skill I’d like to use is on cool-down, so I have to figure out what to do with my other options. This is how I learn, and this prevents me from playing a non-2-spamming thief. I burn out my initiative pressing 2 and if it doesn’t kill them I stealth away and recover…and then try something else only to end up doing it again, which actually beats other thieves more often than anyone else, which is dumb, since I’ve collectively put in about 10 hours of game time into the class and only in sPvP.

hahahahaha. I’m assuming this is a joke and it is really funny. Everyone knows the thief is one of the two weakest classes at this point. Thanks for the attempt at humor.

Viking Jorun.5413:

This would nerf a lot more viable builds than it would help to decrease heartseeker spamming. Condition D/D thieves who use death blossom (their only source of bleed aside from caltrops), the infamous cripspam s/d thieves, boon strip s/d thieves and s/p control thieves would all suffer.

I do think that they need to increase the after cast on heartseeker, because as of now it’s already a pretty spammy move even when you don’t intend on hitting it more than once.

Queue for intelligent response in thief forums: ~2 hours

I suppose I wouldn’t know much in regard to those builds, though I am familiar with PvE viability, I haven’t had enough time with the class to try out anything else (nor been encouraged to do so as inflicting down state is my favorite condition). What about limiting exhaustion to non-auto-attack skills that are combo finishers or a stacking 10% reduction in damage (max -30%) in place of the cool down? I’m not sure the aftercast would be all to great as this impedes mobility, and I know if I can’t stick and move I’m going to get melted (especially against Mesmers, how thieves even fight them is flat out beyond me).

Obscure One.4357:

Viking Jorun.5413:

This would nerf a lot more viable builds than it would help to decrease heartseeker spamming. Condition D/D thieves who use death blossom (their only source of bleed aside from caltrops), the infamous cripspam s/d thieves, boon strip s/d thieves and s/p control thieves would all suffer.

I do think that they need to increase the after cast on heartseeker, because as of now it’s already a pretty spammy move even when you don’t intend on hitting it more than once.

Queue for intelligent response in thief forums: ~2 hours

I suppose I wouldn’t know much in regard to those builds, though I am familiar with PvE viability, I haven’t had enough time with the class to try out anything else (nor been encouraged to do so as inflicting down state is my favorite condition). What about limiting exhaustion to non-auto-attack skills that are combo finishers or a stacking 10% reduction in damage (max -30%) in place of the cool down? I’m not sure the aftercast would be all to great as this impedes mobility, and I know if I can’t stick and move I’m going to get melted (especially against Mesmers, how thieves even fight them is flat out beyond me).

see video above. HeartSeeker is not broken or Overpowering.

Maybe I’m off base here but it feels like the phrase, “u mad cuz u bad” applies here.

Your proposed nerf is ridiculous and unmerited.

This would kill the thief class, for real.

Travlane.5948:

see video above. HeartSeeker is not broken or Overpowering.

see original post. I did not use the term “Broken” as it functions as intended. I did not use the term “Overpowering” as the skill alone is balanced. You lack both understanding and context.

Hype.8032:

Maybe I’m off base here but it feels like the phrase, “u mad cuz u bad” applies here.

Your proposed nerf is ridiculous and unmerited.

Ridiculous and unmerited would describe the ability to not only play a class, but excel at doing so in a game armed with only the experience of fighting against them. I know the limits of 2-spamming thieves fairly well, and I see the problem is inherent to the class design encouraging unskilled game play.

Perhaps skilled game-play based on knowledge and experience is something you disapprove of?

IMO, hunters sb auto attack is too fast. Maybe for every 3 arrows fired without using another skill they should have their damage reduced by a stacking 10% debuff. This would help prevent those horribad rangers from auto attacking things to death.

Obscure One.4357:

Travlane.5948:

see video above. HeartSeeker is not broken or Overpowering.

see original post. I did not use the term “Broken” as it functions as intended. I did not use the term “Overpowering” as the skill alone is balanced. You lack both understanding and context.

Hype.8032:

Maybe I’m off base here but it feels like the phrase, “u mad cuz u bad” applies here.

Your proposed nerf is ridiculous and unmerited.

Ridiculous and unmerited would describe the ability to not only play a class, but excel at doing so in a game armed with only the experience of fighting against them. I know the limits of 2-spamming thieves fairly well, and I see the problem is inherent to the class design encouraging unskilled game play.

Perhaps skilled game-play based on knowledge and experience is something you disapprove of?

perhaps you lack understanding :P you said urself its not broken or OP….why change it. why not make it cost less initiative then lol. why destroy something thats fine??? i mean really

Topher.1684:

IMO, hunters sb auto attack is too fast. Maybe for every 3 arrows fired without using another skill they should have their damage reduced by a stacking 10% debuff. This would help prevent those horribad rangers from auto attacking things to death.

That’s an issue better handled by implementing a skill chain where the first two attacks are “meh” for direct damage, but cause a condition, and the final attack is the pure damage attack.

To be honest I’d expect more QQing from Rangers than Thieves with a damage reducing exhaustion mechanic, as that class needs more fixing up than an exploded meth lab.

Travlane.5948:

perhaps you lack understanding :P you said urself its not broken or OP….why change it. why not make it cost less initiative then lol. why destroy something thats fine??? i mean really

Obscure One.4357:

see original post.

great so its settled. the skill isnt broken or OP so its good as is

To everyone: He isn’t suggesting a change to heartseeker. The skill works as intended on its own. The issue, and I’m sure a lot of you have experienced this, is that tapping skill 2 in quick succession results in more than 1 attack when in the heat of a fight, wasting both your initiative and resulting in accusations of a lack of skill. Exhaustion would need a lot of work to only limit the spamability of heartseeker in combat (since it’s frequently used to cross large distances out of combat).

Obscure One.4357:

Topher.1684:

IMO, hunters sb auto attack is too fast. Maybe for every 3 arrows fired without using another skill they should have their damage reduced by a stacking 10% debuff. This would help prevent those horribad rangers from auto attacking things to death.

That’s an issue better handled by implementing a skill chain where the first two attacks are “meh” for direct damage, but cause a condition, and the final attack is the pure damage attack.

To be honest I’d expect more QQing from Rangers than Thieves with a damage reducing exhaustion mechanic, as that class needs more fixing up than an exploded meth lab.

We’ll that went right over your head. I’ll make things easier for you. This is a stupid idea (yes yes, IMO). And saying a HS spamming thief can “compete with some of the best DPS metagamers to ever put their hands on GW2” just goes to show at what skill level you are playing against. It’s pretty much on par with saying HB warriors destroy people in competitive PvP. Does HS spam kill things? Sure. Can it be used to kill unaware players with ease? Absolutely. Does it do high dps against players on the verge of death without much thought? Yes. Can it be used to solely bring a player from 100%-0, a player who is aware of whats going on? a player not in wvw where the thief may not have even rendered in yet (as in you see the players name, but that’s it due to the 50 or so other people around you)? No.

The animation is not instant, so you can easily react to it. You will probably be hit once or twice, but if the thief is opening with this it will do little damage (maybe 2k crits). If you get hit by a third, you are afk, or have been stunned/knocked down by some other player, or are pvping without some form of mobility/knock down/back/root, in which case you deserve everything that happens to you.

On another note, your “suggested improvement” would hurt (as has been said):

1. DB cond thieves
2. boom strippers (vs bunkers)
3. unload p/p thieves (rare and not competitive, but you do run against them)
4. SB blast thieves (found in wvw not pvp)
5. PW spammers (not common nowadays, but still present, and their play style is just as valid as yours).

Can you at least see that this “fix” would do much more then “fix” HS spam? (like anets nerf to CnD in order to fix BS spike…)

warriors have like 6 ways of leaping/whirling and already are uncatchable in a foot race. this would just kill thief mobility even more out of combat. the skill part of thief is choosing when and if to spam something.

examples:

3 3 3 on s/x against a guardian/ele (gets rid of boons and makes them in a world of trouble)

2 2 2 against a target under 50% hp (if you even have the energy left

3 3 3 PW a mob of hostiles in PVE

x x x against a boss (any build depending on boss)

4 4 4 dancing dagger for multiple tags/cripples

2 2 s/x to immob an enemy on a 2 v 1 so they cant get away

3 3 3 d/p on a fleeing mob that is low on HP but using blocks/aegis etc

2 2 2 SB on AOE mobs for tags/dmg and bleeds

occaisonally and i mean only occaisonally is it smart to spam. we are made to do this bc its how our class is build. we can use 2 skills like CND and have to wait a FULL 16 SECONDS to get full again….. so it does come at a disadvantage too! what? HS HS HS HS? if u dodge roll at the very last second of 1 you actually can dodge two of them if they are spamming….then they waste 50% of a full init bar on nothing and are in a world of trouble in that case. so why limit it? i could see if we had 50% faster init regen as base but its fine. no point in changing anything. theres no need/warrant.

Viking Jorun.5413:

To everyone: He isn’t suggesting a change to heartseeker. The skill works as intended on its own. The issue, and I’m sure a lot of you have experienced this, is that tapping skill 2 in quick succession results in more than 1 attack when in the heat of a fight, wasting both your initiative and resulting in accusations of a lack of skill. Exhaustion would need a lot of work to only limit the spamability of heartseeker in combat (since it’s frequently used to cross large distances out of combat).

Unless I missed something in his post (very possible) he is suggesting a change to HS, and every other spammed ability. He wants players who purposefully press 2 more then once or twice to be penalized.

I agree that in combat I have pressed 2 and had HS go off twice (first one killed the target, then I HS in some random direction wasting initiative), and this is annoying, but this is not what the OP I talking about (I apologize if it is, but your subsequent posts in this thread suggest otherwise). Anet has already done something similar to your last point about in combat/out of combat with elementalist RtL (ride the lightning), which nerfed their ability to move around out of combat (of getting out of combat) into the ground kinda. So even if anet took this suggestion and deployed it, I doubt they would let us keep it’s spam-ability out of combat.

Topher.1684:

Can you at least see that this “fix” would do much more then “fix” HS spam? (like anets nerf to CnD in order to fix BS spike…)

If I could, then I wouldn’t have presented the suggestion, and in that alternate universe we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

Fact: same skill spamming is encouraged by the class mechanics.
Fact: same skill spamming is a viable play-style.
Fact: same skill spamming sets the player skill floor of the class very low.

This all undermines a skill based game and trivializes the class. Is it a “learn to play issue” to counter same skill spamming? Absolutely, and that’s a problem. One skill, when pressed repeatedly sits firmly among play-styles as something that requires countering. Think about that for a moment, it is absurd.

Exhaustion is something that, with careful attention paid to what few viable builds exist in the class to begin with, could serve to raise the skill floor. My goal is not to nerf viable, skill based, and generally well executed builds. The goal is to encourage running them and discourage picking up a pair of daggers, going full zerker (or maybe Celestial now) and pressing 2 until you wear a hole in your keyboard where that 2 used to be. For example, generally speaking, I disagree with implementation of the “Revealed” debuff, even if a counter to stealth was warranted, this was not a way to do it as it doesn’t foster skill-based game play…again pandering to bad players.

The problem is all of are skills aren’t balanced in a way that caters using all our weapons skills in a rotation to maintain pressure and dps. Too many of our weapon skills are situational rather then fire and forget like the other professions.
For instance, running P/P on my engie, I can spam my skills fairly mindlessly and achieve great effects. As opposed to my S/P thief, the only skill I’ll use for damage is Pistol Whip; 2, 4 and 5 are all too low damage to consider using for anything besides their utility role.

@obscured.

SCENARIO:

opponent is at 48% HP(lets say 8.75k) and has a heal skill available in 8 seconds.
thief is at 70% (9k) hp. low defense obv too. 8 initiative left.
thief just used a critical hit HS and and now opponent is at 32% hp. 6 init left (1 was regen from 5).
now the thief uses ANOTHER critical hit (best case scenario 2 crits in a row lol) HS again and now he has 3 init left( about to be 4 soon)
now the enemy is at 16% HP (2.9k). Heartseeker is now exhausted and his opponents heal is 3 seconds from being available.
so with the d/d build he has…. he has 3 choices:
skill 3 deathblossom
skill 4 dancing daggers
skill 5 Cloack and Dagger
or just plain auto attack

3/4 of these skills are melee range and without steal ready u have no way of getting close if hes running.
Skill 4 is LOW dmg and has no chance of finishing this guy off.
you are 2.66 seconds from getting 2 more initiative for CND
most non thief builds run swiftness for a reason (less mobility than thief)….
what should a thief do here that is the best option.

now picture that the thief had to work really hard to get this guy under 50% hp in the first place. dodges this dodges that…blocks….hurts the thief into healing up….he himself heals up. alot has happened. its been a very good fight. the thief capitalizes on a mistake and manages to get him under 50%. his eyes light up seeing that he is about to be deaths doorstep. SEEK THE HEART and finish this fight….hence the name heartseeker. the lower the hp the more violent the thief gets. vicious.

now we know as i showed you in the video spamming HS gets an opponent to half at best. usually much less and then u have 0 init and are a standing dummy to be killed.

how does taking away a skill when its earned/ready or making it exhausted by letting it be used less in a perfect scenario make somebody player more skillfully?

cmon this is silly nonsense man. yes some thieves go 2 2 2 2 or 3 3 3 3 or 5 2 2 2 1 or 5 1 5 1 5 1. but its by choice and by fight. its made to be like this bc not every instance/scenario is the same and that gives the thief versatility ! horrible idea and im just trying to help exlplain why.

Topher.1684:

Viking Jorun.5413:

To everyone: He isn’t suggesting a change to heartseeker. The skill works as intended on its own. The issue, and I’m sure a lot of you have experienced this, is that tapping skill 2 in quick succession results in more than 1 attack when in the heat of a fight, wasting both your initiative and resulting in accusations of a lack of skill. Exhaustion would need a lot of work to only limit the spamability of heartseeker in combat (since it’s frequently used to cross large distances out of combat).

Unless I missed something in his post (very possible) he is suggesting a change to HS, and every other spammed ability. He wants players who purposefully press 2 more then once or twice to be penalized.

I agree that in combat I have pressed 2 and had HS go off twice (first one killed the target, then I HS in some random direction wasting initiative), and this is annoying, but this is not what the OP I talking about (I apologize if it is, but your subsequent posts in this thread suggest otherwise). Anet has already done something similar to your last point about in combat/out of combat with elementalist RtL (ride the lightning), which nerfed their ability to move around out of combat (of getting out of combat) into the ground kinda. So even if anet took this suggestion and deployed it, I doubt they would let us keep it’s spam-ability out of combat.

why wouldnt they let us keep it? its barely 25% as effective as a warriors skill sprinting/leaping/whirling away. if u took 10 seconds to HS HS HS as manhy times as you possible can and a warrior did all his skills to sprint leap etc far as fast as he can. a thief would prollyh cover 35% of the total ground the warrior did. not even a comparison. so if they did that to thief do u think they would do it to warriors? it WOULD be fair

PS: the reason they did this to eles is bc it COULD get u out of combat almost assuredly everytime….it was a different animal in the way it acted.

OP, you post on the thief forums, expecting a reasonable discussion as you demand a nerf to a core thief mechanic. Then when people give you polite, but dissenting replies, you insult their intelligence…so I’d like to return the favor. What kind of person would expect a different response? Your insult to people’s intelligence conveys your own ignorance, as people were appropriately responding to your post. Here’s why:

1) You propose a major nerf to the thief core mechanic.
2) You do very little to justify the need for the nerf
3) The only justification you give, is that skill spamming is somehow overpowered (presumably heartseeker spam? I know you’re not complaining about body shot).
4) Since your argument is based on a flawed assumption, people attacked the assumption, rather than entertaining your “solution” which is absolutely not needed – because there isn’t a problem.
5) Refusing to follow your directions (think it over, and don’t disagree with me) is not the same as being too stupid to read your whole post. People didn’t need to think much, because any thief player can see that this post has no merit.
6) All you need to do to see how flawed your assumption is, is what you imagine thieves are doing…roll a thief, get out there in PvP and heartseeker spam. See how many people you down, and how long you stay alive.
7) Hopefully as part of that, you’ll also L2P.

@ OP

Rotations and waiting for cooldown + a proper time to activate available skills takes less skill than split-second resource management. Although, I don’t think you get the concept of “Resource Management”.

We have 12 or 15 points of initiative we can use to perform attacks. Once it is gone, we have to wait for it to regenerate before we can do ANYTHING except 1-skill auto. Now seeing as how most of our skills are weaker than the 1-skill and have high utility as compensation, thieves must make sure that they have some initiative left to use those abilities when the time comes. Otherwise we could jeopardize ourselves.

Now if a thief starts spamming one specific attack, it is because the thief believes thakittens appropriate at that specific time whether or not it truly is wise to do so. It is a legitimate strategy and takes way more contemplation beforehand than a rotation does.

For example:

Is my opponent weak enough that I can safely burn out my remaining initiative to kill him? Do I have a form of damage avoidance available and if so, will it drain my resources? Will I have enough initiative left to use CnD when I need it? Will I have enough initiative left to perform Y action after I do X? Will I need this initiative more for offense or defense? Etc.

Now I have a mesmer alt which I am starting to do fairly good at. Right now its kind of a phantasm build but it does have its rotation. I normally use Illusionary Berserker > Switch to Staff > Illusionary Warlock > Chaos Storm > Illusionary Defender and then spam Spatial Surge at another target. If one of my Phantasms die, I replace them with another.

My guardian… Binding Blade> Pull > Symbol of Wrath > Leap of Faith > Whirling Wrath > Switch to hammer > Zealot’s Embrace > Ring of Warding > Banish > Mighty Blow > Switch to Greatsword > Rinse > Repeat. All this gets pulled off fairly quickly.

Now if I REALLY need some control for those professions, all I have to do is wait for it to get off cooldown and then use it when the time is right. Once they get hit, then continue on my rotation until my target dies.

Very little resource management.

EDIT: You might also want to click the third link in my siggy since a thief just told you the special word.

Obscure One.4357:

The subject line says it all.

I’m pretty much fed up with a class design allowing those who pick up the Thief class to spend less than a day with it and compete with some of the best DPS metagamers to ever put their hands on GW2…by pressing 2…a lot.

Now before you crazed defenders of all things Thief get all up in arms over another thread calling for a nerf, please read, let this idea bounce around in your head a bit, and then reply with an actual opinion.

Are you ready?

Are you sure?

Ok, here it is:

New sPvP and WvW Feature: Exhaustion “when activating the same non-auto-attack (#1 skill) weapon skill within 2 seconds that skill gains a 1.5 second cooldown that stacks in intensity.”

As far as I can tell this only effects skill spamming and doesn’t circumvent the initiative system, but rather encourages learning to play the class as intended. Pressing one key to victory is pandering to bad players and trivializing the class as a whole. Watching an initiative bar and playing Wack-A-Mole with the 2-key should not be the back bone of a play-style.

My biggest problem doesn’t stem from being attacked by this type of play style, oh no. I beat those kids like it’s a Chris Brown and Rihanna RP. The problem is my difficulty in learning the class. Everytime I try to get into it, I get myself into a situation in which repetitively pressing 2 is the best choice (cloak & dagger, backstab, they run…soooo heartseeker…still alive, still running, sooooo heartseeker…still not down? still running…heartseeker!) Other classes, of with I have 4 fully exoticed at 80, I’m forced to use something else, because the skill I’d like to use is on cool-down, so I have to figure out what to do with my other options. This is how I learn, and this prevents me from playing a non-2-spamming thief. I burn out my initiative pressing 2 and if it doesn’t kill them I stealth away and recover…and then try something else only to end up doing it again, which actually beats other thieves more often than anyone else, which is dumb, since I’ve collectively put in about 10 hours of game time into the class and only in sPvP.

they are spamming skillz ! cheaterz !
wtf, why thief has no CD on skills !!!!??

Travlane.5948:

lets drop the hypotheticals and look at what it is.

aint happening. if u dodge 2 of these you will have 85% hp and the thief 0 init.

this is a l2p issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIv0lboqzZg

except when one jumps you mid fight, you have 0 dodges and 50-60% hp after having a good fun fight with someone. then out of the blue you get jumped by a burst thief using nothing but heart seeker annd your previously fun fight is now a rather frustrating ‘I just got owned by a noob cos heart seeker is too powerful even when used by someone with no idea what theyre doing’ moment. (I dont think heart serker is OP but I think high damaging skills need to have some sort of cool down to separate them or a minimal level of skill to land, heart seeker has non of those things)

heart seeker spam literally makes me cringe.

as a result I try to avoid using it at all costs on my thief.

Bull Zooker.1672:

Travlane.5948:

lets drop the hypotheticals and look at what it is.

aint happening. if u dodge 2 of these you will have 85% hp and the thief 0 init.

this is a l2p issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIv0lboqzZg

except when one jumps you mid fight, you have 0 dodges and 50-60% hp after having a good fun fight with someone. then out of the blue you get jumped by a burst thief using nothing but heart seeker annd your previously fun fight is now a rather frustrating ‘I just got owned by a noob cos heart seeker is too powerful even when used by someone with no idea what theyre doing’ moment.

heart seeker spam literally makes me cringe.

as a result I try to avoid using it at all costs on my thief.

Every class has a glass cannon build or 3 that can accomplish the exact same thing with a different skill / combo. Warriors with rifles, for example, could do it by one shotting you as you stomp – where’s the skill in that? Barely winning a fight and immediately having to fight again without a reset is almost like a 2v1…and so if the game is reasonably balanced, you will be at a disadvantage. There is no dishonor in losing an outnumbered fight. There is a bit of dishonor in whining about it.

Another thief nerf thread that will be met with strong opposition from the block-headed, thief-only, terribad players that troll these forums complaining about [insert latest thief patch notes here]. Thieves will continue to get nerfed, but more than likely this is not the way it will happen.

As I’ve said before, numerous times, thieves still have way too much access to ‘mulligan’ for the amount of forgiveness the rest of their skills offer them. Many things have been brought into line, but it’s not over.

Anyone who thinks the thief is balanced is delusional; I’ve said that one before too. The “L2P” acronym has been tossed about on this forum more than any other, and guess which class got the most nerfs since release…

The truth is that Anet devs are learning their game’s strengths and weaknesses. They’ve finally submitted that mobility is the highest power available to any one class and they are now balancing around it. The ele nerfs proved it a while back and the re-upping of guard symbol size confirms it. In an effort to stay on topic, this is what I believe will end up happening to Heartseeker. It’s not too high damage, it’s not too little resource drain, it’s too forgiving to the unskilled player. It’s lock-on nature is what has to change about it; more than likely, that’s what will.

This thread is neither the beginning nor the end of a massive forum trollfest sparked and fueled by the simple fact that this is the troll class and trolls will always flock to it. It’s not specific to GW2 either. It’s like this with every thief, rogue, assassin, burglar, etc class in every game. In the end, people never seem to stop and I continue to read the wrong-headed feedback about how balance changes killed the game for thieves. So far, Pistol Whip has been the most fun to read about…oh, the world that some people live in.

Redscope.6215:

Another thief nerf thread that will be met with strong opposition from the block-headed, thief-only, terribad players that troll these forums complaining about [insert latest thief patch notes here]. Thieves will continue to get nerfed, but more than likely this is not the way it will happen.

As I’ve said before, numerous times, thieves still have way too much access to ‘mulligan’ for the amount of forgiveness the rest of their skills offer them. Many things have been brought into line, but it’s not over.

Anyone who thinks the thief is balanced is delusional; I’ve said that one before too. The “L2P” acronym has been tossed about on this forum more than any other, and guess which class got the most nerfs since release…

The truth is that Anet devs are learning their game’s strengths and weaknesses. They’ve finally submitted that mobility is the highest power available to any one class and they are now balancing around it. The ele nerfs proved it a while back and the re-upping of guard symbol size confirms it.

This thread is neither the beginning nor the end of a massive forum trollfest sparked and fueled by the simple fact that this is the troll class and trolls will always flock to it. It’s not specific to GW2 either. It’s like this with every thief, rogue, assassin, burglar, etc class in every game. In the end, people never seem to stop and I continue to read the wrong-headed feedback about how balance changes killed the game for thieves. So far, Pistol Whip has been the most fun to read about…oh, the world that some people live in.

Let’s me find that poll for you…

bobross.5034:

-snip-more unintelligible garbage-snip-

1) You propose a major nerf to the thief core mechanic.

Minor nerf. A brief CD would just be a learn to play issue separating good players from bad ones, especially if implemented correctly. If you notice I’m completely open to other suggestions in doing away with unskilled game play, so if you have any ideas I love to hear something other than “not yours”.

2) You do very little to justify the need for the nerf

Same skill spamming is being abused by newbie thieves all around you, if you aren’t aware of this you must not be playing the same game.

3) The only justification you give, is that skill spamming is somehow overpowered (presumably heartseeker spam? I know you’re not complaining about body shot).

Not once have I said skill spamming is “overpowered”. I even mentioned what happens to folks who attempt this tactic with me, apparently despite the uninteligible garage you presented as a response you still have yet to read the original post. Not sure why I’m bothering reading yours, but I take my condescension is a suitable reply when faced with such baseless dismissals.

4) Since your argument is based on a flawed assumption, people attacked the assumption, rather than entertaining your “solution” which is absolutely not needed – because there isn’t a problem.

Really? “is-not! is-so!” logic to confront a reasonable suggestion? This just gets more and more productive on each line… I’m certain there’ll be great substance to be gleaned on this point…just as soon as I can find it.

5) Refusing to follow your directions (think it over, and don’t disagree with me) is not the same as being too stupid to read your whole post. People didn’t need to think much, because any thief player can see that this post has no merit.

When your right your right. Being stupid is so much different than following a direction to read, reasonably consider an idea, and then formulate an opinion, because that would be…so…not stupid…

6) All you need to do to see how flawed your assumption is, is what you imagine thieves are doing…roll a thief, get out there in PvP and heartseeker spam. See how many people you down, and how long you stay alive.
7) Hopefully as part of that, you’ll also L2P.

And the grand crecendo that you weren’t paying attention at all… the entirety of the context of the post was written from the perspective of literally “get out there in PvP and heartseeker spam. See how many people you down, and how long you stay alive.” . I also mention how incredibly successful I was, and I do not think I should have been whilst pointing to this as the root cause for my suggestion.

Intelligent conversation. Truly I’m overwhelmed.

I’m just going to tell you to go play tPvP on a thief and only use heartseeker. I doubt you get one kill, one capture, or one point. It’s only a problem because that PUG sPvP is full of terribad PvE people looking for a quick daily.

he is just trolling and has really really done a good job,

Obscure One.4357:

The subject line says it all.

I’m pretty much fed up with a class design allowing those who pick up the Thief class to spend less than a day with it and compete with some of the best DPS metagamers to ever put their hands on GW2…by pressing 2…a lot.

Stopped reading right about there. You’ve trolled a lot of people, op.

bobross.5034:

Bull Zooker.1672:

Travlane.5948:

lets drop the hypotheticals and look at what it is.

aint happening. if u dodge 2 of these you will have 85% hp and the thief 0 init.

this is a l2p issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIv0lboqzZg

except when one jumps you mid fight, you have 0 dodges and 50-60% hp after having a good fun fight with someone. then out of the blue you get jumped by a burst thief using nothing but heart seeker annd your previously fun fight is now a rather frustrating ‘I just got owned by a noob cos heart seeker is too powerful even when used by someone with no idea what theyre doing’ moment.

heart seeker spam literally makes me cringe.

as a result I try to avoid using it at all costs on my thief.

Every class has a glass cannon build or 3 that can accomplish the exact same thing with a different skill / combo. Warriors with rifles, for example, could do it by one shotting you as you stomp – where’s the skill in that? Barely winning a fight and immediately having to fight again without a reset is almost like a 2v1…and so if the game is reasonably balanced, you will be at a disadvantage. There is no dishonor in losing an outnumbered fight. There is a bit of dishonor in whining about it.

the fact that a kill shot has a cast time, on a 10s CD untraited and you need the resources to fire it off and the need for smart positioning makes the skill balanced.

its the complete opposite for heart seeker, other than yhe minimal resources it costs of course.

im not whining about losing an outnumbered fight, that was an example of heart seeker spamming out side of the perfect scenario for the “victim”

also there in NO honor in playing video games.

If you can dodge a blade you can dodge a ball….

> “Minor nerf”
>Completely ruins D/D condition builds, Pistol Whip builds, Unload builds, boon strippers, Cluster Bombers, almost all PvE playstyles and much more, despite STILL having a resource management system on top.
>Thinks spamming 2 can get anyone anywhere in any competent environment

Yeah, you have no idea what you’re talking about. I am physically repulsed by your ignorance.

Sounds like this guy is asking for training wheels to learn proper skill rotations… I almost feel sorry for you.

This is kittened, just report the thread and be done with it.

Wait.
Thieves are easy. BUT still bad.
So we must nerf thieves to be harder. SO they will be better.
EPIC LOGIC

yes i use heartseeker to kill those annoying nabs running away from me in a straight line on a flat surface.
Or what should I use? Shortbow 5? 0 damage for 6 ini. Dagger 4? minimum damage (hello, 50% nerf) for 3 ini. Sword 2? One use. S/D 3? Good luck. D/P 3? I’d do that, but 5> 2 > backstab is still better.

Don’t worry, with everyone doing a mad dash to P/D builds you’ll probably see less HS spam

purgatoryz.6038:

Don’t worry, with everyone doing a mad dash to P/D builds you’ll probably see less HS spam

Just from an observer perspective, I see the meta shifting from conditions to high-removal mobility in the near future. You should expect to see sword builds start popping up to counter the mobility/Condi meta that’s forming.