Guild Wars 2

Bull Zooker.1672:

Travlane.5948:

lets drop the hypotheticals and look at what it is.

aint happening. if u dodge 2 of these you will have 85% hp and the thief 0 init.

this is a l2p issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIv0lboqzZg

except when one jumps you mid fight, you have 0 dodges and 50-60% hp after having a good fun fight with someone. then out of the blue you get jumped by a burst thief using nothing but heart seeker annd your previously fun fight is now a rather frustrating ‘I just got owned by a noob cos heart seeker is too powerful even when used by someone with no idea what theyre doing’ moment. (I dont think heart serker is OP but I think high damaging skills need to have some sort of cool down to separate them or a minimal level of skill to land, heart seeker has non of those things)

heart seeker spam literally makes me cringe.

as a result I try to avoid using it at all costs on my thief.

so what is wrong with this? you know how many times i caught eviserate to the face when i was at 40% after killing somebody? this is a case of kitten happens bro. not a OP issue. lol cmon. would u say the same if you had 5%? no of course not. its a circumstantial thing. would u say the same if u had 90%? no of course not. cmon now this is just silly

Viking Jorun.5413:

purgatoryz.6038:

Don’t worry, with everyone doing a mad dash to P/D builds you’ll probably see less HS spam

Just from an observer perspective, I see the meta shifting from conditions to high-removal mobility in the near future. You should expect to see sword builds start popping up to counter the mobility/Condi meta that’s forming.

i remember you saying “the only thing condition like about my build was the carrion armor” ….do you still stand by that? i mean i even see the exact same traitline setup in several posts now. if not its only 10 traits off.

also explain what you mean by how sword is going to counter this? d/p has a slightly better chance with condi removal.

Obscure One.4357:

The subject line says it all.

I’m pretty much fed up with a class design allowing those who pick up the Thief class to spend less than a day with it and compete with some of the best DPS metagamers to ever put their hands on GW2…by pressing 2…a lot.

Now before you crazed defenders of all things Thief get all up in arms over another thread calling for a nerf, please read, let this idea bounce around in your head a bit, and then reply with an actual opinion.

Are you ready?

Are you sure?

Ok, here it is:

New sPvP and WvW Feature: Exhaustion “when activating the same non-auto-attack (#1 skill) weapon skill within 2 seconds that skill gains a 1.5 second cooldown that stacks in intensity.”

As far as I can tell this only effects skill spamming and doesn’t circumvent the initiative system, but rather encourages learning to play the class as intended. Pressing one key to victory is pandering to bad players and trivializing the class as a whole. Watching an initiative bar and playing Wack-A-Mole with the 2-key should not be the back bone of a play-style.

My biggest problem doesn’t stem from being attacked by this type of play style, oh no. I beat those kids like it’s a Chris Brown and Rihanna RP. The problem is my difficulty in learning the class. Everytime I try to get into it, I get myself into a situation in which repetitively pressing 2 is the best choice (cloak & dagger, backstab, they run…soooo heartseeker…still alive, still running, sooooo heartseeker…still not down? still running…heartseeker!) Other classes, of with I have 4 fully exoticed at 80, I’m forced to use something else, because the skill I’d like to use is on cool-down, so I have to figure out what to do with my other options. This is how I learn, and this prevents me from playing a non-2-spamming thief. I burn out my initiative pressing 2 and if it doesn’t kill them I stealth away and recover…and then try something else only to end up doing it again, which actually beats other thieves more often than anyone else, which is dumb, since I’ve collectively put in about 10 hours of game time into the class and only in sPvP.

That would be a straight up Thief-only nerf. And initiative only exists to allow the same ability to be used consecutively, making initiative nothing but pure downsides without any benefit.
A better suggestion would be to just scrap initiative and give us recharges like everyone else. I could get behind that.
Despite whatever they may have intended initiative for, all it does now is allow bad players to perform well at the expense of overall performance and ability to balance.
It’d have the extra benefit of completely squashing perma-stealth and remove the need for Revealed, which breaks certain traits.

Grimwolf.7163:

Obscure One.4357:

The subject line says it all.

I’m pretty much fed up with a class design allowing those who pick up the Thief class to spend less than a day with it and compete with some of the best DPS metagamers to ever put their hands on GW2…by pressing 2…a lot.

Now before you crazed defenders of all things Thief get all up in arms over another thread calling for a nerf, please read, let this idea bounce around in your head a bit, and then reply with an actual opinion.

Are you ready?

Are you sure?

Ok, here it is:

New sPvP and WvW Feature: Exhaustion “when activating the same non-auto-attack (#1 skill) weapon skill within 2 seconds that skill gains a 1.5 second cooldown that stacks in intensity.”

As far as I can tell this only effects skill spamming and doesn’t circumvent the initiative system, but rather encourages learning to play the class as intended. Pressing one key to victory is pandering to bad players and trivializing the class as a whole. Watching an initiative bar and playing Wack-A-Mole with the 2-key should not be the back bone of a play-style.

My biggest problem doesn’t stem from being attacked by this type of play style, oh no. I beat those kids like it’s a Chris Brown and Rihanna RP. The problem is my difficulty in learning the class. Everytime I try to get into it, I get myself into a situation in which repetitively pressing 2 is the best choice (cloak & dagger, backstab, they run…soooo heartseeker…still alive, still running, sooooo heartseeker…still not down? still running…heartseeker!) Other classes, of with I have 4 fully exoticed at 80, I’m forced to use something else, because the skill I’d like to use is on cool-down, so I have to figure out what to do with my other options. This is how I learn, and this prevents me from playing a non-2-spamming thief. I burn out my initiative pressing 2 and if it doesn’t kill them I stealth away and recover…and then try something else only to end up doing it again, which actually beats other thieves more often than anyone else, which is dumb, since I’ve collectively put in about 10 hours of game time into the class and only in sPvP.

That would be a straight up Thief-only nerf. And initiative only exists to allow the same ability to be used consecutively, making initiative nothing but pure downsides without any benefit.
A better suggestion would be to just scrap initiative and give us recharges like everyone else. I could get behind that.
Despite whatever they may have intended initiative for, all it does now is allow bad players to perform well at the expense of overall performance and ability to balance.
It’d have the extra benefit of completely squashing perma-stealth and remove the need for Revealed, which breaks certain traits.

well idk about ALL that but some i agree with. i don think it allows bad players to be good. but i will say that it makes them seem more agressive. i would much rather fight a spammer anyday. i think any thief here will agree. if u wanna spam plz do.

Travlane.5948:

Grimwolf.7163:

Obscure One.4357:

The subject line says it all.

I’m pretty much fed up with a class design allowing those who pick up the Thief class to spend less than a day with it and compete with some of the best DPS metagamers to ever put their hands on GW2…by pressing 2…a lot.

Now before you crazed defenders of all things Thief get all up in arms over another thread calling for a nerf, please read, let this idea bounce around in your head a bit, and then reply with an actual opinion.

Are you ready?

Are you sure?

Ok, here it is:

New sPvP and WvW Feature: Exhaustion “when activating the same non-auto-attack (#1 skill) weapon skill within 2 seconds that skill gains a 1.5 second cooldown that stacks in intensity.”

As far as I can tell this only effects skill spamming and doesn’t circumvent the initiative system, but rather encourages learning to play the class as intended. Pressing one key to victory is pandering to bad players and trivializing the class as a whole. Watching an initiative bar and playing Wack-A-Mole with the 2-key should not be the back bone of a play-style.

My biggest problem doesn’t stem from being attacked by this type of play style, oh no. I beat those kids like it’s a Chris Brown and Rihanna RP. The problem is my difficulty in learning the class. Everytime I try to get into it, I get myself into a situation in which repetitively pressing 2 is the best choice (cloak & dagger, backstab, they run…soooo heartseeker…still alive, still running, sooooo heartseeker…still not down? still running…heartseeker!) Other classes, of with I have 4 fully exoticed at 80, I’m forced to use something else, because the skill I’d like to use is on cool-down, so I have to figure out what to do with my other options. This is how I learn, and this prevents me from playing a non-2-spamming thief. I burn out my initiative pressing 2 and if it doesn’t kill them I stealth away and recover…and then try something else only to end up doing it again, which actually beats other thieves more often than anyone else, which is dumb, since I’ve collectively put in about 10 hours of game time into the class and only in sPvP.

That would be a straight up Thief-only nerf. And initiative only exists to allow the same ability to be used consecutively, making initiative nothing but pure downsides without any benefit.
A better suggestion would be to just scrap initiative and give us recharges like everyone else. I could get behind that.
Despite whatever they may have intended initiative for, all it does now is allow bad players to perform well at the expense of overall performance and ability to balance.
It’d have the extra benefit of completely squashing perma-stealth and remove the need for Revealed, which breaks certain traits.

well idk about ALL that but some i agree with. i don think it allows bad players to be good. but i will say that it makes them seem more agressive. i would much rather fight a spammer anyday. i think any thief here will agree. if u wanna spam plz do.

Without Initiative, spamming isn’t even a thing.
With most classes, you HAVE to use your skills carefully at the right time. Initiative allows you to put out good damage by just spamming Heartseeker, or come back from a mistake by, for example, using Cloak and Dagger again right after the first one fails to connect.
Such things do still have downsides, since you will still run out of Initiative, but nothing compared to what most classes need to do to perform effectively.
If you spam skills you certainly won’t perform optimally, but you can still get by doing that.
If a Ranger with a Greatsword tries to block someone and the other person just holds off their attacks, that block is gone for the next like ~15 seconds; you can’t do it again. Whereas with Initiative they could immediately block again when the enemy tries throwing out a big attack after the first block ends.

At the same time, Initiative vastly limits the number of skill activations you can use.
It allows you to use far fewer in succession, you recover from a series of skill uses more slowly, and weapon swapping does very little since you gain no resources from it like other classes.
Attacks also do less damage in general, simply because you CAN spam them, and if they did normal damage the burst potential would be too great.

@ GRIMWOLF

go on guardian. take away his cooldowns. lol !!!

now have him in a fight but let him use his 5 skill on GS> it misses. let him use it again.

now he cant use any skills for the next 4-5 seconds as he needs to recharge. good night guardian!

the guardians efficacy is now cut 75%. if u wanna compare to another class ….itll always look like this.

the best case to explain it is ele. imagine them not being able to use ANY skills for 5 secs after using 2 in a row. AHAHHAHAHAH dead ele everytime!

this is thief specific. its made this way to promote versatility to circumstance and also bc we are squishy and lowest hp pool in game.

any nub can get on a guardian and get the right armor and be a better guardian than a thief could be a good thief. there are easy classes. thief is not even in the easiest 3-4.

I have an idea to “fix” the heartseeker spam. Why don’t we raise the damage values to their original levels so that heartseeker under 33% would be the finisher its supposed to be. No more spam.

Maugetarr.6823:

I have an idea to “fix” the heartseeker spam. Why don’t we raise the damage values to their original levels so that heartseeker under 33% would be the finisher its supposed to be. No more spam.

+1 that would really cut down the spam

purgatoryz.6038:

Don’t worry, with everyone doing a mad dash to P/D builds you’ll probably see less HS spam

We’re going to need an abbreviation for “Spam 5 – 1 – 3 – dodge – 5+F1 moar, newb!”

@bobross

LOL! is that really a new “spam”

The general idea of initiative is a resource system, with more potent abilities costing more than others. What it fails to account for is skill viability, largely in regard to versatility. Heartseeker is a great skill in and out of combat primarily for it’s almost constant viability. Gap closing, leap finishing, and good damage, tossed on one skill flat out makes it a bargain buy for even the most frugal initiative spender. Is it broken? Not at all save for some bugs that effect most every movement skill in uneven terrain. Is it overpowered? No, the skill is particularly well balanced.

So what’s the problem? Viability particularly when used more than once, which discourages skillful use of the classes other options. Why use an immobilize with a spammable gap closer? Why use a pull (other than the fact it’s super buggy)? I’m not encouraged to mix things up and play smarter, or develop alternative skill rotations. I’m actually discouraged from doing so since the class mechanics allow mobility and damage that tracks my intended target and keeping me at my most damaging range of melee. With a Warrior, particularly a greatsword combined with a sword mainhand and bulls charge, only then does an Immobilize begin to look like a good idea…but if he’d retreating with every gap closer he has, there’s no real reason to chase (unless I’m on my Engineer and catch up to within 1200 of him with ease and yank him back with a Magnet pull and Immobilize him with a net shot so my thief duo partner can catch up.)

The point is the skill needs a limitation other than initiative cost. Exhaustion reinforces that if you need to use a skill more than twice in a row within 2 seconds, you shouldn’t need to use it again for 1.5 seconds, and if you do you don’t need it for 3 seconds, after which your free to use it twice again back to back. This encourages inserting other skills in between the rotation to teach the thief to use it’s other options. That being said, thieves also need more options.

(edit: it has come to my attention that a couple of my posts were deemed inflammatory and were thus deleted by the moderators. To this I say…maybe you should do a sweep of other sub-forums…these deletes were only “kinda inflammatory” by comparison to the stuff I say in my regular haunts…but then again the dev team doesn’t care about Engineer forums so I’ll only say what I really think over there from now on.)

This sounds like an indirect attempt to nerf D/P, its the only weaponset that maximize the use of spamming heartseekers for stealth.

panicbutton.1053:

Again, you’re asking for a change to the mechanics of the class. What makes us different is that we CAN spam one skill if we want — despite how inefficient it is. It’s inefficiency should be enough to make you think smarter… You’re not even noting other builds that we are capable of running besides d/d heartseekers.

Look, we have already discussed how useless spamming heartseeker is in a real fight. Now you’re requesting that we make it even worse if we chain the same moves? We are the only class that can chain the same moves over and over, your suggestion for exhaustion only targets thieves. The sole motive of making people “think” more is not enough to establish this, YOUR motive should be that spamming heartseeker will not kill anyone besides the person that JUST got into pvp/wvw.

exactly correct. Its like telling a guardian not to wear toughness/heal armor and to think more creatively. if u wanna wear that kind of armor you are going to move at a -15% speed deduction. lol. will it promote more skillful guardians design? yes! is it warranted? i dont think i should have to answer that.

where will he stop with this. you are targeting unskillful players i understand that. but its no different than saying to a cookie cutter user that you will have a debuff if you decide to copy a nubby META of FOTM build. 90% of the players in the game are really not skillful.

your idea….if you look at it in an economical sense…..is a horrible idea. and let me be the first to tell you…when you present and idea…always consider the economical ramifications first because not only are they an important factor….they are the MOST important factor.

will this make more people angry than not?
how will this affect incoming revenue?
will this discourage bad players from paying/playing more?
will it affect the overall game in a negative way?
is it warranted?
is it popular belief it should be this way?
how can i turn this idea into money?

they have questions like this when they implement new ideas. of course balancing is key too b ut that falls under the games perspective from players and how we will view and react to it.

Are you serious about getting defeated by a 2 spamming thief? It’s the stealth spam that’s op, not #2 spam alone…

Any thief that is spamming a skill, is terrible. To be honest, if a player has any skill at all, that thief is going to lose. Putting in some garbage mechanic like this, would completely kill the entire idea/mechanic of a thief. It’s bad enough it’s the weakest profession in the game right now, the last thing we need is to add cool-downs on skills.

Raidium.3916:

This sounds like an indirect attempt to nerf D/P, its the only weaponset that maximize the use of spamming heartseekers for stealth.

It’s also a nerf to S/D builds that use flanking strike consecutively to strip multiple boons at a time (nothing else to use with dagger #4 nerf). and to P/P builds that spam unload (literally nothing else to use). and to underwater builds that spam #2 because there is nothing else to use after the nerfs. in short it will kill the thief class.

A better solution would be to buff the other weapon skills so there is a REASON to use other skills on that weapon, instead of limiting the usage of the only skill on the weaponbar that is actually useable.

Drtrider.6314:

It’s bad enough it’s the weakest profession in the game right now, the last thing we need is to add cool-downs on skills.

Now that’s just some worst bull kitten I have seen in a while in these forums.
Anyway, I wouldn’t even care if they’d add that mechanic suggested by OP. Would it even affect anything else but might stacking short bow thieves, and perhaps slightly reduce the stealth effectivity of a d/p thief? Oh and sword dagger yes.

in short it will kill the thief class.

D/d, p/d and d/p would all still be effective though. Underwater thief and p/p are useless anyway.

Travlane.5948:

panicbutton.1053:

Again, you’re asking for a change to the mechanics of the class. What makes us different is that we CAN spam one skill if we want — despite how inefficient it is. It’s inefficiency should be enough to make you think smarter… You’re not even noting other builds that we are capable of running besides d/d heartseekers.

Look, we have already discussed how useless spamming heartseeker is in a real fight. Now you’re requesting that we make it even worse if we chain the same moves? We are the only class that can chain the same moves over and over, your suggestion for exhaustion only targets thieves. The sole motive of making people “think” more is not enough to establish this, YOUR motive should be that spamming heartseeker will not kill anyone besides the person that JUST got into pvp/wvw.

exactly correct. Its like telling a guardian not to wear toughness/heal armor and to think more creatively. if u wanna wear that kind of armor you are going to move at a -15% speed deduction. lol. will it promote more skillful guardians design? yes! is it warranted? i dont think i should have to answer that.

where will he stop with this. you are targeting unskillful players i understand that. but its no different than saying to a cookie cutter user that you will have a debuff if you decide to copy a nubby META of FOTM build. 90% of the players in the game are really not skillful.

your idea….if you look at it in an economical sense…..is a horrible idea. and let me be the first to tell you…when you present and idea…always consider the economical ramifications first because not only are they an important factor….they are the MOST important factor.

will this make more people angry than not?
how will this affect incoming revenue?
will this discourage bad players from paying/playing more?
will it affect the overall game in a negative way?
is it warranted?
is it popular belief it should be this way?
how can i turn this idea into money?

they have questions like this when they implement new ideas. of course balancing is key too b ut that falls under the games perspective from players and how we will view and react to it.

I presented this suggestion for the specific purpose of gleaning other rational opinions. The loudest response thus far has been, “kitten and learn to play” which is not only irrelevant to the point, but not furthering a rational dialog in regard to an actual issue.

( _edit: case and point just in the time it took me to reply:

Obscure One -> L2P

_ )

I can completely except rational reasons for an error in my thinking, as a select few have pointed out, since as I noted in my initial post I am no expert in all things thief. Counter points should include ways to resolve the issue which off the top of my head would span from adding build diversity, to initiative pool benefits to discourage draining it with unskilled spam. Exhaustion is just a singular idea targeting a root problem, and resolving the root problem is the intention, not furthering an idea that may in fact do more harm than good, despite its intention.

Master of Timespace.2548:

Drtrider.6314:

It’s bad enough it’s the weakest profession in the game right now, the last thing we need is to add cool-downs on skills.

Now that’s just some worst bull kitten I have seen in a while in these forums.
Anyway, I wouldn’t even care if they’d add that mechanic suggested by OP. Would it even affect anything else but might stacking short bow thieves, and perhaps slightly reduce the stealth effectivity of a d/p thief? Oh and sword dagger yes.

in short it will kill the thief class.

D/d, p/d and d/p would all still be effective though. Underwater thief and p/p are useless anyway.

ok few things here :P

1) thief is one of the worst…not THE worst but id say 2nd worst behind ranger. why?
well this is bc u ahve to look at what the game is about. WVW SPVP TPVP PVE and DUNGEONS. we are obviously on the last 2 in dungeons/pve without really much arguable there. spvp and tpvp we arent run as much bc well most our builds are crap bc stealth isnt made for that style fighting as we always lose the node. this leaves us with fragile sword builds which are good at taking bunkers but when it gets really hairy i always target thieves first bc they down the fastest which means its now 5 v 4 instead of 5 v 5. WVW we have 2 roles. scouting and blast finishers pre battle. during battle we can stay back and SB it sure but anything we do other than scout/blast finish is doen better by everyone else. 1v1? srry its not part of gw2 …yet. so that leaves us right next to rangers in the bottom 2.

2) it WOULD ruin our class . D/D? forget about HS ….. D/P? forget about 5 2 2 2 or 3 3. P/D? this one might survive that depending on the definition time of “spamming” if its 3 secs or under its prolly fine. S/x? yup all ruined 2 2 3 3 3 2 2 . SB? prolly the worst. there is only one direct dmg skill. so what would u do ? 2 then 4 then 3 then 1 1 then 2? you woould NEVER kill anyone with sb …EVER lol. maybe a lvl 1 upscale. so yeah its a class ruining idea

we are obviously on the last 2 in dungeons/pve without really much arguable there.

Didn’t even read the rest. :P (Mainly because your post is written using the “flow of thought” – technique, and is thus a pain to read.)
The ideal party for most dungeons and fractals is
3 warriors, 1 mesmer, 1 thief. Some prefer guard over thief, but I and most of my dungeon farming guildies prefer thief.

Obscure One.4357:

Travlane.5948:

panicbutton.1053:

Again, you’re asking for a change to the mechanics of the class. What makes us different is that we CAN spam one skill if we want — despite how inefficient it is. It’s inefficiency should be enough to make you think smarter… You’re not even noting other builds that we are capable of running besides d/d heartseekers.

Look, we have already discussed how useless spamming heartseeker is in a real fight. Now you’re requesting that we make it even worse if we chain the same moves? We are the only class that can chain the same moves over and over, your suggestion for exhaustion only targets thieves. The sole motive of making people “think” more is not enough to establish this, YOUR motive should be that spamming heartseeker will not kill anyone besides the person that JUST got into pvp/wvw.

exactly correct. Its like telling a guardian not to wear toughness/heal armor and to think more creatively. if u wanna wear that kind of armor you are going to move at a -15% speed deduction. lol. will it promote more skillful guardians design? yes! is it warranted? i dont think i should have to answer that.

where will he stop with this. you are targeting unskillful players i understand that. but its no different than saying to a cookie cutter user that you will have a debuff if you decide to copy a nubby META of FOTM build. 90% of the players in the game are really not skillful.

your idea….if you look at it in an economical sense…..is a horrible idea. and let me be the first to tell you…when you present and idea…always consider the economical ramifications first because not only are they an important factor….they are the MOST important factor.

will this make more people angry than not?
how will this affect incoming revenue?
will this discourage bad players from paying/playing more?
will it affect the overall game in a negative way?
is it warranted?
is it popular belief it should be this way?
how can i turn this idea into money?

they have questions like this when they implement new ideas. of course balancing is key too b ut that falls under the games perspective from players and how we will view and react to it.

I presented this suggestion for the specific purpose of gleaning other rational opinions. The loudest response thus far has been, “kitten and learn to play” which is not only irrelevant to the point, but not furthering a rational dialog in regard to an actual issue.

I can completely except rational reasons for an error in my thinking, as a select few have pointed out, since as I noted in my initial post I am no expert in all things thief. Counter points should include ways to resolve the issue which off the top of my head would span from adding build diversity, to initiative pool benefits to discourage draining it with unskilled spam. Exhaustion is just a singular idea targeting a root problem, and resolving the root problem is the intention, not furthering an idea that may in fact do more harm than good, despite its intention.

yes but your root problem is idiots and ignoramuses. problem is for you that they also have money and are paying players and also the majority of players within gw2. this means that there is no reason for gw2 team to irritate them. thief mesmer and ele are the hardest classes to play bc they have the most options and versatility. other classes are stronger at their specialties but easier to play. i understand where you are comign from but the suggested idea breaks the foundation of the class. would be like giving rangers a 150 range bow attacks. it just wouldnt work and they wont kill anything. your problem is one of irritation ….. bc even these dum dums that play like that? they are a gift. accept it…down them…collect their bags

Travlane.5948:

so yeah its a class ruining idea

that’s why we like it !!!

hahaha i laughed hard when i read this LOL!. so when i’m D/D and my HS is on cooldown cuz i spammed it twice… what skill shud i use nxt? dancing dagger spam and death blossom? and when im S/D and i used Larcenous strike (1/2 sec casting time ) this skill is pretty hard to hit and can be easily dodge when i used this skill twice it will hav a cooldown!?? so my gain initiative traits are all useless then?

Travlane.5948:

Obscure One.4357:

Travlane.5948:

panicbutton.1053:

Again, you’re asking for a change to the mechanics of the class. What makes us different is that we CAN spam one skill if we want — despite how inefficient it is. It’s inefficiency should be enough to make you think smarter… You’re not even noting other builds that we are capable of running besides d/d heartseekers.

Look, we have already discussed how useless spamming heartseeker is in a real fight. Now you’re requesting that we make it even worse if we chain the same moves? We are the only class that can chain the same moves over and over, your suggestion for exhaustion only targets thieves. The sole motive of making people “think” more is not enough to establish this, YOUR motive should be that spamming heartseeker will not kill anyone besides the person that JUST got into pvp/wvw.

exactly correct. Its like telling a guardian not to wear toughness/heal armor and to think more creatively. if u wanna wear that kind of armor you are going to move at a -15% speed deduction. lol. will it promote more skillful guardians design? yes! is it warranted? i dont think i should have to answer that.

where will he stop with this. you are targeting unskillful players i understand that. but its no different than saying to a cookie cutter user that you will have a debuff if you decide to copy a nubby META of FOTM build. 90% of the players in the game are really not skillful.

your idea….if you look at it in an economical sense…..is a horrible idea. and let me be the first to tell you…when you present and idea…always consider the economical ramifications first because not only are they an important factor….they are the MOST important factor.

will this make more people angry than not?
how will this affect incoming revenue?
will this discourage bad players from paying/playing more?
will it affect the overall game in a negative way?
is it warranted?
is it popular belief it should be this way?
how can i turn this idea into money?

they have questions like this when they implement new ideas. of course balancing is key too b ut that falls under the games perspective from players and how we will view and react to it.

I presented this suggestion for the specific purpose of gleaning other rational opinions. The loudest response thus far has been, “kitten and learn to play” which is not only irrelevant to the point, but not furthering a rational dialog in regard to an actual issue.

I can completely except rational reasons for an error in my thinking, as a select few have pointed out, since as I noted in my initial post I am no expert in all things thief. Counter points should include ways to resolve the issue which off the top of my head would span from adding build diversity, to initiative pool benefits to discourage draining it with unskilled spam. Exhaustion is just a singular idea targeting a root problem, and resolving the root problem is the intention, not furthering an idea that may in fact do more harm than good, despite its intention.

yes but your root problem is idiots and ignoramuses. problem is for you that they also have money and are paying players and also the majority of players within gw2. this means that there is no reason for gw2 team to irritate them. thief mesmer and ele are the hardest classes to play bc they have the most options and versatility. other classes are stronger at their specialties but easier to play. i understand where you are comign from but the suggested idea breaks the foundation of the class. would be like giving rangers a 150 range bow attacks. it just wouldnt work and they wont kill anything. your problem is one of irritation ….. bc even these dum dums that play like that? they are a gift. accept it…down them…collect their bags

I cannot accept pandering to the lamestream gamer because they are paying customers. This is the source of all that is soulless and wrong with other games and companies across the industry. I’m not nieve enough to think that game development isn’t a business that needs to remain profitabile, but dumbing games down as a money making strategy is a concept I’ll stand on a soap box and protest, with much more anger and conviction than a base thread such as this aiming to nerf noobs. As not to derail my own thread into a rant about such a concept I merely hold the developers to their design goal of producing the best game ever, and as a paying customer myself, if they do not, they will lose my business faster than you can say “Destiny is confirmed for PC!”

Overall fun, challenging, and skill based gameplay lays the ground work for consumer retention. Ignore that and you basically hand your customers off to the next set of devs that promise the best and fail to deliver.

@obscure if u played gw1 and gw2 then you should never havve written any of these posts. did u ever play gw1?

You guys…

I went from thinking the OP was a moron to now understanding he is a god..at trolling

He deserves a /bow.

Stop feeding him.

animalmom.1062:

You guys…

I went from thinking the OP was a moron to now understanding he is a god..at trolling

He deserves a /bow.

Stop feeding him.

This, if nobody would post here the “Idea” would sink into the forums oblivion.

You kittentard thieves are beyond stupid. I main a thief, and Heartseeker spam is by far the most broken mechanic the class has, the OP is wrong about that. The OP is not having trouble dealing with these thieves, he is simply stating that it is discouraging a variable, more skillful, gameplay.

Here, you all have (save for a few) attacked the OP trying to make a intelligent discussion about how to discourage spamming the same skill over and over and over and over… etc.

Having this exhaustion would inevitably encourage more skillful gameplay. It makes thief have to actually think and use its other skills. Hell, I’d go so far as to create a debuff that makes thieves take more damage if they spam the same skill.

Now I await for the post infringements and all the trash I am going to get for this post. Cheers!

Chewy.9263:

You kittentard thieves are beyond stupid. I main a thief, and Heartseeker spam is by far the most broken mechanic the class has, the OP is wrong about that. The OP is not having trouble dealing with these thieves, he is simply stating that it is discouraging a variable, more skillful, gameplay.

Here, you all have (save for a few) attacked the OP trying to make a intelligent discussion about how to discourage spamming the same skill over and over and over and over… etc.

Having this exhaustion would inevitably encourage more skillful gameplay. It makes thief have to actually think and use its other skills. Hell, I’d go so far as to create a debuff that makes thieves take more damage if they spam the same skill.

Now I await for the post infringements and all the trash I am going to get for this post. Cheers!

Are you trying to bandwagon troll?…you won’t get it from me, all you’ll get is love and hugs.

Chewy.9263:

You kittentard thieves are beyond stupid. I main a thief, and Heartseeker spam is by far the most broken mechanic the class has, the OP is wrong about that. The OP is not having trouble dealing with these thieves, he is simply stating that it is discouraging a variable, more skillful, gameplay.

Here, you all have (save for a few) attacked the OP trying to make a intelligent discussion about how to discourage spamming the same skill over and over and over and over… etc.

Having this exhaustion would inevitably encourage more skillful gameplay. It makes thief have to actually think and use its other skills. Hell, I’d go so far as to create a debuff that makes thieves take more damage if they spam the same skill.

Now I await for the post infringements and all the trash I am going to get for this post. Cheers!

Let’s get married <3

i am for exhaustion.. why?

answer is simple s/d evade spam. its overpowerd and nerfbat is coming. at actual state its simple a good weaponcombination even without evadespam. all nerfs would cripple that fact.

I really think that just moving us over to recharges without Initiative like everyone else would be a massive improvement for the Thief.

Obscure One.4357:

OP’s post

For what it’s worth, I agree with you to an extent. I understand that beating these Thieves is not the problem here. In a matter of fact, I posted this same exact idea a few months back and understand where you’re coming from. But let’s take a closer look. And for the sake of the Thief’s forum’s dignity (ha) I’ll be very civil about it.

Adding this sort of functionality to our skills would punish us too harshly, in too many ways. Aren’t we limited to initiative cost at any rate? Either way, sometimes, it’s best to spam a skill, especially when the enemy is so pressured he has nothing left. This is just one case where it’s beneficial to spam a skill, IE, Heartseeker. But there’s other things, too. Headshot comes to mind. I run a very initiative-traited build where spamming headshot can disable an opponent for seconds at a time, while my allies do the damage. Is it practical? Maybe not. Is it effective? Yes. Is it unfair? No. He can dodge my headshots, but is too confused or not situationally aware to do so. Which brings me to my next point.

If spamming a skill is so cheap and predictable, why do these so-called “good” players have such a hard time countering it? Are they so short sighted and ignorant that they can’t predict, or for that matter see, me spamming a skill? Keep in mind most of these skills are easily blocked, dodged, or invuln’d. A good player would see this and punish me for it without the game doing so for them. Adding this functionality would simply be a handicap for bad players.

Oh, and I read your post about “whack-a-mole”ing skills. For some reason, the Elementalist’s playstyle came to mind. Can’t imagine why.

Grimwolf.7163:

I really think that just moving us over to recharges without Initiative like everyone else would be a massive improvement for the Thief.

No, give Ini to every class, that would be an improvement. CD’s are boring, and also
just picking what is free to do stuff very easily.

Cyhann.2609:

Grimwolf.7163:

I really think that just moving us over to recharges without Initiative like everyone else would be a massive improvement for the Thief.

No, give Ini to every class, that would be an improvement. CD’s are boring, and also
just picking what is free to do stuff very easily.

And it would be an absolute balancing nightmare. We already have perma-stealth and evade-spam with Thieves. One can only imagine what nightmares other classes would inflict upon the game with similar abilities.
Necros chain-fearing everyone to their deaths, for one.

Grimwolf.7163:

Cyhann.2609:

Grimwolf.7163:

I really think that just moving us over to recharges without Initiative like everyone else would be a massive improvement for the Thief.

No, give Ini to every class, that would be an improvement. CD’s are boring, and also
just picking what is free to do stuff very easily.

And it would be an absolute balancing nightmare. We already have perma-stealth and evade-spam with Thieves. One can only imagine what nightmares other classes would inflict upon the game with similar abilities.
Necros chain-fearing everyone to their deaths, for one.

Well it’s not my nightmare but:
Necro 40 Ini, Fear = 20/30 Ini or something.
If ini regen skills are kept to a minimum it can work out, instead of these you can do an Ini cost reduction traits.
Or mulitble Inibars for different kind of skills.
One for condis, one for evasive stuff, one for raw dmg.

Well, I know that example isn’t good, but there are ways to balance it out, and of course the classes and weapons will never feel the same again, as they did bevore.

I have only one question about this thread… Why hasn’t a mod locked/deleted it yet? It’s, by itself, baiting for a “disruptive bevaviour” however you look at it. I won’t say my opinion, because the sarcasm is just begging to get unleashed and that will just give more food to thief hating trolls.

Grimwolf.7163:

Cyhann.2609:

Grimwolf.7163:

I really think that just moving us over to recharges without Initiative like everyone else would be a massive improvement for the Thief.

No, give Ini to every class, that would be an improvement. CD’s are boring, and also
just picking what is free to do stuff very easily.

And it would be an absolute balancing nightmare. We already have perma-stealth and evade-spam with Thieves. One can only imagine what nightmares other classes would inflict upon the game with similar abilities.
Necros chain-fearing everyone to their deaths, for one.

there is a reason why thief has no blocks no invl no protection no retaliation no aegis….no burning….lowest pool hp…most squishy…med armor…. umm what else am i forgetting? oh yeah their weapon skills cant really do anything to the enemy as far as KDs/Pushbacks/Pulls/Fears/Stone/freeze we do have 1 stun but its a prerequisite skill (needs stealth …TS)……

so that said…if necros had initiative system like us…the devs would have put all fear like skills on utilities only. :P not a really good comparison

Travlane.5948:

Grimwolf.7163:

Cyhann.2609:

Grimwolf.7163:

I really think that just moving us over to recharges without Initiative like everyone else would be a massive improvement for the Thief.

No, give Ini to every class, that would be an improvement. CD’s are boring, and also
just picking what is free to do stuff very easily.

And it would be an absolute balancing nightmare. We already have perma-stealth and evade-spam with Thieves. One can only imagine what nightmares other classes would inflict upon the game with similar abilities.
Necros chain-fearing everyone to their deaths, for one.

there is a reason why thief has no blocks no invl no protection no retaliation no aegis….no burning….lowest pool hp…most squishy…med armor…. umm what else am i forgetting? oh yeah their weapon skills cant really do anything to the enemy as far as KDs/Pushbacks/Pulls/Fears/Stone/freeze we do have 1 stun but its a prerequisite skill (needs stealth …TS)……

so that said…if necros had initiative system like us…the devs would have put all fear like skills on utilities only. :P not a really good comparison

Runes of Lyssa + Basilisk Venom: Problem solved. Good day.

This is how I fixed the Warrior community, but I replaced Basilisk Venom with Signet of Rage (cooldown reduced).

Rahar.9872:

Obscure One.4357:

OP’s post

For what it’s worth, I agree with you to an extent. I understand that beating these Thieves is not the problem here. In a matter of fact, I posted this same exact idea a few months back and understand where you’re coming from. But let’s take a closer look. And for the sake of the Thief’s forum’s dignity (ha) I’ll be very civil about it.

Adding this sort of functionality to our skills would punish us too harshly, in too many ways. Aren’t we limited to initiative cost at any rate? Either way, sometimes, it’s best to spam a skill, especially when the enemy is so pressured he has nothing left. This is just one case where it’s beneficial to spam a skill, IE, Heartseeker. But there’s other things, too. Headshot comes to mind. I run a very initiative-traited build where spamming headshot can disable an opponent for seconds at a time, while my allies do the damage. Is it practical? Maybe not. Is it effective? Yes. Is it unfair? No. He can dodge my headshots, but is too confused or not situationally aware to do so. Which brings me to my next point.

If spamming a skill is so cheap and predictable, why do these so-called “good” players have such a hard time countering it? Are they so short sighted and ignorant that they can’t predict, or for that matter see, me spamming a skill? Keep in mind most of these skills are easily blocked, dodged, or invuln’d. A good player would see this and punish me for it without the game doing so for them. Adding this functionality would simply be a handicap for bad players.

Oh, and I read your post about “whack-a-mole”ing skills. For some reason, the Elementalist’s playstyle came to mind. Can’t imagine why.

A fair analysis. I appreciate the change of pace.

Perhaps the problem is to integrated into the class to attempt to apply cool downs for skill spamming. As far as I can tell it would certainly nerf untalented same skill spamming, but certain viable build strategies would get caught in the cross fire. I’d prefer this not to be the case with Exhaustion. I want to see a fostering of more skilled game-play and expanded build diversity at the expense of removing unskilled game-play.

Maybe Exhaustion is something I’m looking at being handled incorrectly entirely. The cost of unskilled gameplay should come at the expense of other options, or more simply longer cool downs for them instead. Steal, heal skill, and utility skills could all be instantly be put on these short 1.5 second stacking cool downs (max of 3 seconds still) when skill spamming within 2 seconds. This, instead of preventing a thief from using the skill, forces the thief to be smart about using skill spam as other valuable skills must be sacrificed to do so leaving them vulnerable. Ideally the playstyle would change so that the effects of this extra cool-down is minimized as the thief would likely only skill spam when everything is already on cool down and they literally don’t have any other option.

Additionally changing the Lead Attacks grandmaster minor trait to, in addition to the 1% increase in damage per initiative point, to also reduce cool downs of non-elite skills when activating them by 1% per initiative you have when activating them. Effectively putting the ball in the thieves court if it wants to mitigate cool downs from skill spamming; activate steal, heals and utilities before skill spamming to reduce the impending increased cool down by up to 15%. This very well could encourage the use of other options over a same skill spam, if only to have that heal skill not on a 3 second cool down when someone turns around and spikes them. I think it may actually buff an existing build that replenishes initiative via Signet Use, Infusion of Shadow, and Kleptomaniac (didn’t mention Quick Pockets as I don’t know of any real reason to trait that deep into Acrobatics, but hey I’m no pro thief so anyone feel free to enlighten me).

So, what do you think? Exhaustion doesn’t effect weapon skills, but rather all other non-elite skills that use a cool-down mechanic anyhow by imposing a cool down, or increasing a current cool down. It seems to be a fair trade if the thief wants to go purely offensive with skill spamming it comes at the cost of healing and utility options.

Obscure One.4357:

-snip-, last post above me

It’s an interesting idea, and it could work. The fundamental problem you seem to be missing, however, is we have a mechanic in place to already limit this skill spamming; Initiative.

Had it been 8 months earlier and Heartseeker still did incredible damage, this might’ve been a road worth going down. But in a state such as it is, spamming a skill is not equivalent to winning. Instead of making a sweeping generalization about players, (IE: “bad players can’t dodge skill spam!”) I’ll go ahead and analyze further. Maybe all players can’t do it, but it’s a part of learning the game and getting better. And, as much as I hate to say it, it’s part of the Thief class.

Thieves have, on average, two damaging abilities and three for utility on each skill bar. For example, let’s take S/D and D/P or D. (Very popular sets accused of spamming) and analyze them for a moment.

S/D. What we have here is a, well, what’s supposed to be a controlling, denying set. However, with Jumper’s build, deteriorates into a dodge spamming set(which is bad, by the way, this set needs fixed). One is your basic auto – almost never used aside for the first in said build. Two is a teleport utility with some tiny damage tacked on. Three is your main damaging ability. Four is a lackluster cripple with lackluster damage. Five is never used in this build.

So you have one main damaging ability, outside of stealth. See the problem here? Let’s take D/X for a spin.

D/P or D. A damage set, primarily, adding either more damage with X/D or more control with X/P. Both have lots of stealth built in. 1 is your auto. 2 is your damaging ability outside of stealth. 3 on X/D is condition damage for some reason. 3 on X/P is utility. 4 and 5 on both sets are mostly utility and access to stealth with a bit of damage (barring cloak and dagger, but that damage has sort of been nerfed and will be considered utility for the purpose of this post, as it’s main use is accessing stealth).

Again. Same boat here, fundamentally. Two damaging abilities.

So here’s why I went so far out of my way on this post. All Thief weapons look like this. One damaging ability, the rest utility. This is not true on other sets outside of the profession (take for example, Warrior Greatsword or hammer, which all have damage AND utility. Still, poor guys). Clearly the developers intended for us to have a lot of utility and mix in the damage when it’s best. And here’s what I’ll ask you: Is this not what’s happening? Aside from, say, PvE (where we do poor damage anyway, even when spamming) most Thieves don’t spam. You see, this sort of change is not warranted for such a small minority of the Thief population that, in all honesty, learns to play skillfully as you say or die. And here’s why: Inevitably the initiative system will take it’s toll on a spamming Thief and do what you propose to do with Exhaustion already, without changing the game.

See what I’m trying to say here?

Viking Jorun.5413:

Travlane.5948:

Grimwolf.7163:

Cyhann.2609:

Grimwolf.7163:

I really think that just moving us over to recharges without Initiative like everyone else would be a massive improvement for the Thief.

No, give Ini to every class, that would be an improvement. CD’s are boring, and also
just picking what is free to do stuff very easily.

And it would be an absolute balancing nightmare. We already have perma-stealth and evade-spam with Thieves. One can only imagine what nightmares other classes would inflict upon the game with similar abilities.
Necros chain-fearing everyone to their deaths, for one.

there is a reason why thief has no blocks no invl no protection no retaliation no aegis….no burning….lowest pool hp…most squishy…med armor…. umm what else am i forgetting? oh yeah their weapon skills cant really do anything to the enemy as far as KDs/Pushbacks/Pulls/Fears/Stone/freeze we do have 1 stun but its a prerequisite skill (needs stealth …TS)……

so that said…if necros had initiative system like us…the devs would have put all fear like skills on utilities only. :P not a really good comparison

Runes of Lyssa + Basilisk Venom: Problem solved. Good day.

This is how I fixed the Warrior community, but I replaced Basilisk Venom with Signet of Rage (cooldown reduced).

wow 5 secs. …. if they upped this to 10 secs like they did signet might (5 stacks per for 10 secs) then i would say yeah def use this. but runes of lyssa have way less production than say power runes…..or 45% bleed runes…..or 50% endurance rune with withdraw…. few theives run lyssa but thats not a class mechanic. anyone can run it. we were talking about str8 up class specifics. thieves dont have anything attached to their weapons that really control like what i mentioned above bc of initiative. and to compare a necro who does is just a bad comparison. if a necro had init they wouldnt have fear etc on regular attacks….only on utilz.

Obscure One.4357:

The subject line says it all.

I’m pretty much fed up with a class design allowing those who pick up the Thief class to spend less than a day with it and compete with some of the best DPS metagamers to ever put their hands on GW2…by pressing 2…a lot.

Now before you crazed defenders of all things Thief get all up in arms over another thread calling for a nerf, please read, let this idea bounce around in your head a bit, and then reply with an actual opinion.

Are you ready?

Are you sure?

Ok, here it is:

New sPvP and WvW Feature: Exhaustion “when activating the same non-auto-attack (#1 skill) weapon skill within 2 seconds that skill gains a 1.5 second cooldown that stacks in intensity.”

As far as I can tell this only effects skill spamming and doesn’t circumvent the initiative system, but rather encourages learning to play the class as intended. Pressing one key to victory is pandering to bad players and trivializing the class as a whole. Watching an initiative bar and playing Wack-A-Mole with the 2-key should not be the back bone of a play-style.

My biggest problem doesn’t stem from being attacked by this type of play style, oh no. I beat those kids like it’s a Chris Brown and Rihanna RP. The problem is my difficulty in learning the class. Everytime I try to get into it, I get myself into a situation in which repetitively pressing 2 is the best choice (cloak & dagger, backstab, they run…soooo heartseeker…still alive, still running, sooooo heartseeker…still not down? still running…heartseeker!) Other classes, of with I have 4 fully exoticed at 80, I’m forced to use something else, because the skill I’d like to use is on cool-down, so I have to figure out what to do with my other options. This is how I learn, and this prevents me from playing a non-2-spamming thief. I burn out my initiative pressing 2 and if it doesn’t kill them I stealth away and recover…and then try something else only to end up doing it again, which actually beats other thieves more often than anyone else, which is dumb, since I’ve collectively put in about 10 hours of game time into the class and only in sPvP.

As long as our other skills (not heartseeker/spam skills.), get a 200% – 250% base damage increase I will be fine with this.

Currently most skills are not used because of .. gasp.. low damage.

Also, Guardians out damage thieves atm. Warriors even moreso. Even rangers out damage thieves in the current meta. NECROMANCERs even.

Learn your class before you whine.

Viking Jorun.5413:

purgatoryz.6038:

Don’t worry, with everyone doing a mad dash to P/D builds you’ll probably see less HS spam

Just from an observer perspective, I see the meta shifting from conditions to high-removal mobility in the near future. You should expect to see sword builds start popping up to counter the mobility/Condi meta that’s forming.

this also may be true. but only d/p thief can keep up with it fast enough. considering a thief can reaaply 6 bleeds on every 4 seconds with relative ease plus blind and poison and vulnerabilty to cover it. even d/p is beatable quite easily with the right build (duel style roaming can but not as easily since its a diff util setup). so let em change its cool with me as a condi thief…atleast for now. would love to switch to sword but havent been able to make it work in wvw yet…atleast not on a basis wher ei dont mind if a zerg does a drive by :P

Daecollo.9578:

Obscure One.4357:

The subject line says it all.

I’m pretty much fed up with a class design allowing those who pick up the Thief class to spend less than a day with it and compete with some of the best DPS metagamers to ever put their hands on GW2…by pressing 2…a lot.

Now before you crazed defenders of all things Thief get all up in arms over another thread calling for a nerf, please read, let this idea bounce around in your head a bit, and then reply with an actual opinion.

Are you ready?

Are you sure?

Ok, here it is:

New sPvP and WvW Feature: Exhaustion “when activating the same non-auto-attack (#1 skill) weapon skill within 2 seconds that skill gains a 1.5 second cooldown that stacks in intensity.”

As far as I can tell this only effects skill spamming and doesn’t circumvent the initiative system, but rather encourages learning to play the class as intended. Pressing one key to victory is pandering to bad players and trivializing the class as a whole. Watching an initiative bar and playing Wack-A-Mole with the 2-key should not be the back bone of a play-style.

My biggest problem doesn’t stem from being attacked by this type of play style, oh no. I beat those kids like it’s a Chris Brown and Rihanna RP. The problem is my difficulty in learning the class. Everytime I try to get into it, I get myself into a situation in which repetitively pressing 2 is the best choice (cloak & dagger, backstab, they run…soooo heartseeker…still alive, still running, sooooo heartseeker…still not down? still running…heartseeker!) Other classes, of with I have 4 fully exoticed at 80, I’m forced to use something else, because the skill I’d like to use is on cool-down, so I have to figure out what to do with my other options. This is how I learn, and this prevents me from playing a non-2-spamming thief. I burn out my initiative pressing 2 and if it doesn’t kill them I stealth away and recover…and then try something else only to end up doing it again, which actually beats other thieves more often than anyone else, which is dumb, since I’ve collectively put in about 10 hours of game time into the class and only in sPvP.

As long as our other skills (not heartseeker/spam skills.), get a 200% – 250% base damage increase I will be fine with this.

Currently most skills are not used because of .. gasp.. low damage.

Also, Guardians out damage thieves atm. Warriors even moreso. Even rangers out damage thieves in the current meta. NECROMANCERs even.

Learn your class before you whine.

a zerk guardian can really put a hurting on somebody! especially with rage sigil going off!

might be a silly question here but oh well:

if you have 2 daggers and on each dagger is a sigil of rage….i know they share the same cooldown…..but does that give you 2x the chance at it going off bc there is 2?
for instance. sigil of rage: 10% chance to gain quickness on a crit for 3 secs.

so you hit something and Sigil A: 10% chance misses
on the same hit then goes Sigil B: 10 % chance Proc’s and quickness buff goes on.

Travlane.5948:

Daecollo.9578:

Obscure One.4357:

The subject line says it all.

I’m pretty much fed up with a class design allowing those who pick up the Thief class to spend less than a day with it and compete with some of the best DPS metagamers to ever put their hands on GW2…by pressing 2…a lot.

Now before you crazed defenders of all things Thief get all up in arms over another thread calling for a nerf, please read, let this idea bounce around in your head a bit, and then reply with an actual opinion.

Are you ready?

Are you sure?

Ok, here it is:

New sPvP and WvW Feature: Exhaustion “when activating the same non-auto-attack (#1 skill) weapon skill within 2 seconds that skill gains a 1.5 second cooldown that stacks in intensity.”

As far as I can tell this only effects skill spamming and doesn’t circumvent the initiative system, but rather encourages learning to play the class as intended. Pressing one key to victory is pandering to bad players and trivializing the class as a whole. Watching an initiative bar and playing Wack-A-Mole with the 2-key should not be the back bone of a play-style.

My biggest problem doesn’t stem from being attacked by this type of play style, oh no. I beat those kids like it’s a Chris Brown and Rihanna RP. The problem is my difficulty in learning the class. Everytime I try to get into it, I get myself into a situation in which repetitively pressing 2 is the best choice (cloak & dagger, backstab, they run…soooo heartseeker…still alive, still running, sooooo heartseeker…still not down? still running…heartseeker!) Other classes, of with I have 4 fully exoticed at 80, I’m forced to use something else, because the skill I’d like to use is on cool-down, so I have to figure out what to do with my other options. This is how I learn, and this prevents me from playing a non-2-spamming thief. I burn out my initiative pressing 2 and if it doesn’t kill them I stealth away and recover…and then try something else only to end up doing it again, which actually beats other thieves more often than anyone else, which is dumb, since I’ve collectively put in about 10 hours of game time into the class and only in sPvP.

As long as our other skills (not heartseeker/spam skills.), get a 200% – 250% base damage increase I will be fine with this.

Currently most skills are not used because of .. gasp.. low damage.

Also, Guardians out damage thieves atm. Warriors even moreso. Even rangers out damage thieves in the current meta. NECROMANCERs even.

Learn your class before you whine.

a zerk guardian can really put a hurting on somebody! especially with rage sigil going off!

might be a silly question here but oh well:

if you have 2 daggers and on each dagger is a sigil of rage….i know they share the same cooldown…..but does that give you 2x the chance at it going off bc there is 2?
for instance. sigil of rage: 10% chance to gain quickness on a crit for 3 secs.

so you hit something and Sigil A: 10% chance misses
on the same hit then goes Sigil B: 10 % chance Proc’s and quickness buff goes on.

It does not increase the chance. :<

Just like 2 “5% Critical Chance” Sigils is still only 5% instead of 10%.

Travlane.5948:

if you have 2 daggers and on each dagger is a sigil of rage….i know they share the same cooldown…..but does that give you 2x the chance at it going off bc there is 2?
for instance. sigil of rage: 10% chance to gain quickness on a crit for 3 secs.

so you hit something and Sigil A: 10% chance misses
on the same hit then goes Sigil B: 10 % chance Proc’s and quickness buff goes on.

Yes very odd place for this question, and you’re right, both have a chance to proc – but they share a cooldown. So that’s not quite a 20% chance. The chance one misses is 9/10, the chance both miss is 81/100. Is this a popular sigil now? There’s a thief trait that gives quickness on a critical with a 30 second cooldown. It’s useful for a burst build, since the critical will happen on either the CnD or the backstab…so it gives you quickness at the exact moment you need it. I suppose these sigils could extend that a bit – not sure if the quickness would stack.

Obscure One.4357:

As far as I can tell this only effects skill spamming and doesn’t circumvent the initiative system, but rather encourages learning to play the class as intended.

People is playing the class as intended.

Thieves are intended to be able to use their skills repetitively (What you call spamming). And there is already an exhaustion system… It’s called INITIATIVE.

G·E·T·O·V·E·R·I·T

@Kyrion
I’m going for the post infringement here so first off, kitten you. Second, stick to the godkitten discussion and actually contribute.

@Cyhann
As long as you’re cool with tying me up.

Back on topic:
As for having this exhaustion on sword #3, it wouldn’t affect it because it as a different skill at each cast.

Maybe moving thief over to recharges could work, but to stick with the bursty theme, have those cooldowns still very low. I don’t see a problem with a combination of both? Hell, even a one second cooldown once the attack has finished would tremendously increase more skillful play. I just hate seeing horribad thiefs running around heartseeker spamming someone at full health…

Travlane.5948:

Bull Zooker.1672:

Travlane.5948:

lets drop the hypotheticals and look at what it is.

aint happening. if u dodge 2 of these you will have 85% hp and the thief 0 init.

this is a l2p issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIv0lboqzZg

except when one jumps you mid fight, you have 0 dodges and 50-60% hp after having a good fun fight with someone. then out of the blue you get jumped by a burst thief using nothing but heart seeker annd your previously fun fight is now a rather frustrating ‘I just got owned by a noob cos heart seeker is too powerful even when used by someone with no idea what theyre doing’ moment. (I dont think heart serker is OP but I think high damaging skills need to have some sort of cool down to separate them or a minimal level of skill to land, heart seeker has non of those things)

heart seeker spam literally makes me cringe.

as a result I try to avoid using it at all costs on my thief.

so what is wrong with this? you know how many times i caught eviserate to the face when i was at 40% after killing somebody? this is a case of kitten happens bro. not a OP issue. lol cmon. would u say the same if you had 5%? no of course not. its a circumstantial thing. would u say the same if u had 90%? no of course not. cmon now this is just silly

how often can a warrior hit eviscerate? how often can a thief hit heartseeker? no comparison.

also saying ‘kitten happens’ is great. except when there’s more kitten happening than anything else then theres an issue.

personally I dont have too many problems with thieves but I think the heartseeker effectiveness with very little skill needed is frustrating to see.

I spectated a thief and for the entire match I saw nothing but heartseeker. not a single auto attack. this thief was horrendous but still downed alot of players.