Guild Wars 2

sorrow.2364:

I knew you would have brought into the discussion DODGE, the mighty counter of everything and the justification of every OPness.
…

Funny, the anti-stealth crowd never stops arguing thief has enough defence with dodge alone, yet when someone mentions dodge as counter to thief skills, dodge has suddenly lost it’s usefulness.

frans.8092:

sorrow.2364:

I knew you would have brought into the discussion DODGE, the mighty counter of everything and the justification of every OPness.
…

Funny, the anti-stealth crowd never stops arguing thief has enough defence with dodge alone, yet when someone mentions dodge as counter to thief skills, dodge has suddenly lost it’s usefulness.

I’m under the impression that Thief has access to more dodge skills than other classes

Raestloz.7134:

I’m under the impression that Thief has access to more dodge skills than other classes

Even counting a sword mesmer which gets a weapon skill giving 2s of evade followed by 6s of cooldown and a class tool giving him invulnerability nearly on demand?

the answer is simple:
DON’T USE BOONS !!!
problem solved.

DanH.5879:

the answer is simple:
DON’T USE BOONS !!!
problem solved.

Yeah, the answer is to completely avoid to use a base game mechanic because S/D thieves are around. Looks balanced.

sorrow.2364:

DanH.5879:

the answer is simple:
DON’T USE BOONS !!!
problem solved.

Yeah, the answer is to completely avoid to use a base game mechanic because S/D thieves are around. Looks balanced.

And unkillable boons Guardian,Ranger or Ele is balanced ? Do not be silly
Boons steal/remove is only way how kill this terminators. All things must have their nemesis=balance.

I play with 4 80s, necromancer is my main, and not one single time I went into a forum complaining this class, build, skill…etc… is OP. Heck I still play D/D because I enjoy it the most. So if you spend more time enjoying “your thief” and less time complaining about their skills, that would be great!

I don’t even know what were you expecting….

Evilek.5690:

And unkillable boons Guardian,Ranger or Ele is balanced ? Do not be silly
Boons steal/remove is only way how kill this terminators. All things must have their nemesis=balance.

No, having a nemesis isn’t balance. The word itself says what balance is. It isn’t about giving a nemesis to a specific build, it is about finding the exact compromise to make them both effective, so the skills may speak.

As boon-bunkers were too much effective against Thief (that’s the reason FS was buffed), now Thief is too much effective against boon-bunkers. Imbalance then, imbalance now.

The rock, paper and scissor game isn’t balance, it is just rock, paper and scissor.

stof.9341:

Even counting a sword mesmer which gets a weapon skill giving 2s of evade followed by 6s of cooldown and a class tool giving him invulnerability nearly on demand?

Yeah, this is right.

But what it makes me laugh is that when you say to any Mesmer that Blurried Frenzy is too much powerful, they say “Look at Thieves! They have lots of evades” and they are right too!

And, in the meantime, all other professions with no evades/invulnerabilities on demand get kitten d.

Well, except the classes with lots of vigor and invulnerability or blocks, like elementalist and guardian. Or the ranger with a lot of evade on his melee weapon skills too. For sure they can get very strong healing.

So we got mesmer, thief, elementalist, guardian, maybe ranger too. That’s the majority of the cast already :p

stof.9341:

Well, except the classes with lots of vigor and invulnerability or blocks, like elementalist and guardian. Or the ranger with a lot of evade on his melee weapon skills too. For sure they can get very strong healing.

So we got mesmer, thief, elementalist, guardian, maybe ranger too. That’s the majority of the cast already :p

I think there are 2 missing, right?
Uh, do Vigor is as much effective as an evade on any weapon set?

sorrow.2364:

stof.9341:

Well, except the classes with lots of vigor and invulnerability or blocks, like elementalist and guardian. Or the ranger with a lot of evade on his melee weapon skills too. For sure they can get very strong healing.

So we got mesmer, thief, elementalist, guardian, maybe ranger too. That’s the majority of the cast already :p

I think there are 2 missing, right?
Uh, do Vigor is as much effective as an evade on any weapon set?

Those classes with vigor generally have additional defensive options such as invulns, blocks, protection, stability, and high regen uptime.

evilapprentice.6379:

Those classes with vigor generally have additional defensive options such as invulns, blocks, protection, stability, and high regen uptime.

I think that you know that Mesmers and Thieves have additional defenses too.
Uh, and they have vigor too!

sorrow.2364:

evilapprentice.6379:

Those classes with vigor generally have additional defensive options such as invulns, blocks, protection, stability, and high regen uptime.

I think that you know that Mesmers and Thieves have additional defenses too.
Uh, and they have vigor too!

Of course they do, and they’re the most kittened about classes on the forums because their defensive measures are evasiveness and confusion (talking about confusion as a noun, not the in-game condition). As far as thieves are concerned, they get a ton of evasiveness and confusion because they don’t get block, invuln, protection or stability, and their access to regen is pretty kitten . And it’s all perfectly fair, until people (in general, not singling you out) start crying about how broken stealth and evasion are.

I never claimed one was more powerful then the other, just that they existed. I honestly think most of the classes are fairly well balanced (Well, beside Warriors) at this point – once warriors get a leg up, we’ll probably be in the “minor tweaks” part of game balancing, rather than sweeping changes.

Raestloz.7134:

frans.8092:

sorrow.2364:

I knew you would have brought into the discussion DODGE, the mighty counter of everything and the justification of every OPness.
…

Funny, the anti-stealth crowd never stops arguing thief has enough defence with dodge alone, yet when someone mentions dodge as counter to thief skills, dodge has suddenly lost it’s usefulness.

I’m under the impression that Thief has access to more dodge skills than other classes

Actually that would be ranger, by far.

I can see how bunker boon users would be angry about flanking strike, however its rock paper scissors, I think Warrior and Ranger elites should have there boons split a bit so they arn’t as effected by this however the ability itself is fine.

Daecollo.9578:

I can see how bunker boon users would be angry about flanking strike, however its rock paper scissors, I think Warrior and Ranger elites should have there boons split a bit so they arn’t as effected by this however the ability itself is fine.

Any boon removal in this game isn’t capable to constantly cleanse the enemy out of their boons. They mostly annoy the boon-user if you are good enough to use your boon strips at the right time, to strip the most crucial boons.

Once you give to some profession the tool to completely wipe any boon out of your enemy for some reasons (probably they want boons out of the meta), you should adjust any other boon-hate skills according to your game design decision, or your buff will become imbalanced.

evilapprentice.6379:

Of course they do, and they’re the most kittened about classes on the forums because their defensive measures are evasiveness and confusion (talking about confusion as a noun, not the in-game condition). As far as thieves are concerned, they get a ton of evasiveness and confusion because they don’t get block, invuln, protection or stability, and their access to regen is pretty kitten . And it’s all perfectly fair, until people (in general, not singling you out) start crying about how broken stealth and evasion are.

I never claimed one was more powerful then the other, just that they existed. I honestly think most of the classes are fairly well balanced (Well, beside Warriors) at this point – once warriors get a leg up, we’ll probably be in the “minor tweaks” part of game balancing, rather than sweeping changes.

I can’t believe you really think this game is well balanced. There are some major flaws to address that it is impossible to not notice them.
For instance, Mesmer are always over the average in any situation and any settings. In PvP there is an huge amount of Mesmer representation, probably they are extremely easy to play and extremely effective at the same time. Some weapon sets are completely worthless and some traitlines of some professions are complete trash.

About the evasiveness-boons argument, I don’t really think it is a fair trade.
Having your enemy in sight, being aware of their positioning and also having it targeted is huge in any fight. Nothing can be a better defensive mechanic then making your enemy not know where you are and making you untargeted.
Also, this brings another important issue, because as good evasiveness is in a PvP environment, it is not as effective as tankyiness in PvE. This means that giving some profession evasiveness only and no tankiness, makes them extremely strong in PvP while below average in PvE.
There is a reason if Thief and Mesmer are the two most played professions in the mist and it’s not because they are pretty.

sorrow.2364:

Daecollo.9578:

I can see how bunker boon users would be angry about flanking strike, however its rock paper scissors, I think Warrior and Ranger elites should have there boons split a bit so they arn’t as effected by this however the ability itself is fine.

Any boon removal in this game isn’t capable to constantly cleanse the enemy out of their boons. They mostly annoy the boon-user if you are good enough to use your boon strips at the right time, to strip the most crucial boons.

Once you give to some profession the tool to completely wipe any boon out of your enemy for some reasons (probably they want boons out of the meta), you should adjust any other boon-hate skills according to your game design decision, or your buff will become imbalanced.

Counter-example: Mesmer 1h sword autoattack. With clones up boons are removed exponentially faster since clones from dodge and illusionary leap attack with the same ability.

sorrow.2364:

Daecollo.9578:

I can see how bunker boon users would be angry about flanking strike, however its rock paper scissors, I think Warrior and Ranger elites should have there boons split a bit so they arn’t as effected by this however the ability itself is fine.

Any boon removal in this game isn’t capable to constantly cleanse the enemy out of their boons. They mostly annoy the boon-user if you are good enough to use your boon strips at the right time, to strip the most crucial boons.

Once you give to some profession the tool to completely wipe any boon out of your enemy for some reasons (probably they want boons out of the meta), you should adjust any other boon-hate skills according to your game design decision, or your buff will become imbalanced.

Anet has already decided a shift was needed – Burst was too high, bunkers were too tough. Increasing Warrior and Thief burst to counter Bunkers toughness left everyone else out to dry – thieves were 3 shotting people, and other classes were having trouble cracking bunkers. The solution was rather well thought out IMO – reduce thief and warrior burst, and replace the lost DPS with abilities that specifically target bunkers.

What do bunkers rely most on? Boons. Maybe that wasn’t the best design decision by Anet, but its much too late to think about changing it.

By targeting boons, thieves and warriors (warriors in theory, at least) now have tools that allow them to counter the way a bunker plays outside of “Do moar damage!”, which means they aren’t 2 and 3 shotting non-bunkers. Bunkers took a small hit in survivability, but they needed it – also note that with warrior and thief burst (supposedly) dropping a bit with these new tools, bunkers didn’t lose as much as you think. Sure, my S/D thief might be able to steal your boons, but his strongest attack doesn’t do nearly as much damage as a low health HS or a Backstab,

Dahkeus.8243:

sorrow.2364:

Daecollo.9578:

I can see how bunker boon users would be angry about flanking strike, however its rock paper scissors, I think Warrior and Ranger elites should have there boons split a bit so they arn’t as effected by this however the ability itself is fine.

Any boon removal in this game isn’t capable to constantly cleanse the enemy out of their boons. They mostly annoy the boon-user if you are good enough to use your boon strips at the right time, to strip the most crucial boons.

Once you give to some profession the tool to completely wipe any boon out of your enemy for some reasons (probably they want boons out of the meta), you should adjust any other boon-hate skills according to your game design decision, or your buff will become imbalanced.

Counter-example: Mesmer 1h sword autoattack. With clones up boons are removed exponentially faster since clones from dodge and illusionary leap attack with the same ability.

That’s not very practical unless you happen to be fighting a scarecrow. Then again, scarecrows don’t use boons.

sorrow.2364:

About the evasiveness-boons argument, I don’t really think it is a fair trade.
Having your enemy in sight, being aware of their positioning and also having it targeted is huge in any fight. Nothing can be a better defensive mechanic then making your enemy not know where you are and making you untargeted.
Also, this brings another important issue, because as good evasiveness is in a PvP environment, it is not as effective as tankyiness in PvE. This means that giving some profession evasiveness only and no tankiness, makes them extremely strong in PvP while below average in PvE.
There is a reason if Thief and Mesmer are the two most played professions in the mist and it’s not because they are pretty.

“I Don’t know where my target is” is a disingenuous statement when referring to thief.
More accurate would be “I don’t know the exact location of my target”.

When a thief stealths, he isn’t contributing anything to his team. He isn’t contesting points, doing damage, CCing…and so on. This limits the effectiveness of a stealthed thief. So, lets puzzle out what our thief is doing. He could be running away (in which case, you won! grats, get ready for the next fight). He could be trying to kill you, in which case you have a very, very good idea where he’s aiming to end up (psst, it’s behind you). Those are basically the 2 options. If he’s not doing either of those things, he’s not contributing to his team, and he’s worthless.

If after a few weeks of play you can’t puzzle out where a thief might be headed when he stealth’s based on his health and how the fight was going prior to him stealthing, you’re not trying.

By all means though, keep insisting on how broken stealth is – when anet eventually caves and replaces it with protection, stability, blocks, more evades, and maybe even an invuln skills, people will feel really stupid when they get shredded by GC thieves that they can see but can’t stop.

evilapprentice.6379:

“I Don’t know where my target is” is a disingenuous statement when referring to thief.
More accurate would be “I don’t know the exact location of my target”.

When a thief stealths, he isn’t contributing anything to his team. He isn’t contesting points, doing damage, CCing…and so on. This limits the effectiveness of a stealthed thief. So, lets puzzle out what our thief is doing. He could be running away (in which case, you won! grats, get ready for the next fight). He could be trying to kill you, in which case you have a very, very good idea where he’s aiming to end up (psst, it’s behind you). Those are basically the 2 options. If he’s not doing either of those things, he’s not contributing to his team, and he’s worthless.

If after a few weeks of play you can’t puzzle out where a thief might be headed when he stealth’s based on his health and how the fight was going prior to him stealthing, you’re not trying.

By all means though, keep insisting on how broken stealth is – when anet eventually caves and replaces it with protection, stability, blocks, more evades, and maybe even an invuln skills, people will feel really stupid when they get shredded by GC thieves that they can see but can’t stop.

We are talking about a defensive mechanic, right?
So if it let you escape alive, it has done its job.
I don’t know how do you think boon-bunkers work, but having boons doesn’t allow you to run GC, which is something Stealth and evades do.

sorrow.2364:

evilapprentice.6379:

“I Don’t know where my target is” is a disingenuous statement when referring to thief.
More accurate would be “I don’t know the exact location of my target”.

When a thief stealths, he isn’t contributing anything to his team. He isn’t contesting points, doing damage, CCing…and so on. This limits the effectiveness of a stealthed thief. So, lets puzzle out what our thief is doing. He could be running away (in which case, you won! grats, get ready for the next fight). He could be trying to kill you, in which case you have a very, very good idea where he’s aiming to end up (psst, it’s behind you). Those are basically the 2 options. If he’s not doing either of those things, he’s not contributing to his team, and he’s worthless.

If after a few weeks of play you can’t puzzle out where a thief might be headed when he stealth’s based on his health and how the fight was going prior to him stealthing, you’re not trying.

By all means though, keep insisting on how broken stealth is – when anet eventually caves and replaces it with protection, stability, blocks, more evades, and maybe even an invuln skills, people will feel really stupid when they get shredded by GC thieves that they can see but can’t stop.

We are talking about a defensive mechanic, right?
So if it let you escape alive, it has done its job.
I don’t know how do you think boon-bunkers work, but having boons doesn’t allow you to run GC, which is something Stealth and evades do.

Silly me! I forgot that “not dying” was the metric by which capture point games were scored. No wonder bunkers are so popular!

Who’s talking Bunkers? I’m talking GC thieves with access to defensive buffs instead of stealth. Protection is powerful on a GC. It’s the equivalent of doubling your toughness if you’re running base toughness. Think about that for a second. Stability is also a nice one – no more getting stunned/feared/KB’d while executing your burst combos. Imagine an ability like endure pain on a GC thief – 5 seconds to go just go nuts, knowing that no burst can stop you. I’d give up the ability to go invisible (but still have competent players have a fairly good idea where I’m heading) for that in a heartbeat.

evilapprentice.6379:

Silly me! I forgot that “not dying” was the metric by which capture point games were scored. No wonder bunkers are so popular!

Who’s talking Bunkers? I’m talking GC thieves with access to defensive buffs instead of stealth. Protection is powerful on a GC. It’s the equivalent of doubling your toughness if you’re running base toughness. Think about that for a second. Stability is also a nice one – no more getting stunned/feared/KB’d while executing your burst combos. Imagine an ability like endure pain on a GC thief – 5 seconds to go just go nuts, knowing that no burst can stop you. I’d give up the ability to go invisible (but still have competent players have a fairly good idea where I’m heading) for that in a heartbeat.

Actually “not dying” is a crucial part in any PvP match because if you’re dead you’re not helping your team. Simple.

Did you considered the fact that those good things are uptime half a time you are capable to have Stealth up?
Did you know that dodge is, in fact, a 0.75s invulnerability?
Did you know that Thief and Rangers are the only two professions who have a trait which maximize the endurance regeneration?
Did you know that Thief, if you look closely, have access to invulnerability? It has only a different name, which is “evade”.
Did you know that Pistol Whip has 2s of “evade”?

Protection is pretty much worthless, trust me.
Necro has some access to it due to Spectral skills, while they have no access to evades, movement skills or stealth.
Try protection on a GC Necro and tell me how are you doing into tanking people.

sorrow.2364:

evilapprentice.6379:

Silly me! I forgot that “not dying” was the metric by which capture point games were scored. No wonder bunkers are so popular!

Who’s talking Bunkers? I’m talking GC thieves with access to defensive buffs instead of stealth. Protection is powerful on a GC. It’s the equivalent of doubling your toughness if you’re running base toughness. Think about that for a second. Stability is also a nice one – no more getting stunned/feared/KB’d while executing your burst combos. Imagine an ability like endure pain on a GC thief – 5 seconds to go just go nuts, knowing that no burst can stop you. I’d give up the ability to go invisible (but still have competent players have a fairly good idea where I’m heading) for that in a heartbeat.

Actually “not dying” is a crucial part in any PvP match because if you’re dead you’re not helping your team. Simple.

Did you considered the fact that those good things are uptime half a time you are capable to have Stealth up?
Did you know that dodge is, in fact, a 0.75s invulnerability?
Did you know that Thief and Rangers are the only two professions who have a trait which maximize the endurance regeneration?
Did you know that Thief, if you look closely, have access to invulnerability? It has only a different name, which is “evade”.
Did you know that Pistol Whip has 2s of “evade”?

Protection is pretty much worthless, trust me.
Necro has some access to it due to Spectral skills, while they have no access to evades, movement skills or stealth.
Try protection on a GC Necro and tell me how are you doing into tanking people.

You just lost all credibility. Sorry. Let me attempt to pick apart everything that is wrong. I know you will just defend yourself or attempt to hide this post.

1 Protection is NOT Worthless…. it is greatly magnified by how much toughness you have.

2 Dodge is NOT Invulnerability, dots still tick when you dodge.

3 Guardians and Elementalists and Engineers can get perma-vigor with minor traits, Thieves actually have poor endurance regeneration, they just get 15 back when they roll, there only access to vigor is with a trait that is deep in our condition damage line, which does not fit in stealth direct damage builds, we need 0/30/30/0/0 at least, we don’t have 20 points to spare for the bountiful theft. 100% Gen>50% Gen>Get 15 endurance when you dodge roll.

4 Evade is NOT Invulnerability, dots still tick when you dodge.

5 Pistol Whip has a ¾ second evade, look at the description. The second part of pistol whip lasts ¾ of a second after you stun them with the pistol, before you do that you however have no evasion.

“Pistol-whip your foe, stunning them, then slash repeatedly with your sword.”
“During the subsequent sword attacks, the user evades attacks, but cannot move while attacking. Attempting to move after this attack has started will end the attack.”

Please go back to the Necromancer forums and get there class buffed if you think it needs a buff.

sorrow.2364:

evilapprentice.6379:

Silly me! I forgot that “not dying” was the metric by which capture point games were scored. No wonder bunkers are so popular!

Who’s talking Bunkers? I’m talking GC thieves with access to defensive buffs instead of stealth. Protection is powerful on a GC. It’s the equivalent of doubling your toughness if you’re running base toughness. Think about that for a second. Stability is also a nice one – no more getting stunned/feared/KB’d while executing your burst combos. Imagine an ability like endure pain on a GC thief – 5 seconds to go just go nuts, knowing that no burst can stop you. I’d give up the ability to go invisible (but still have competent players have a fairly good idea where I’m heading) for that in a heartbeat.

Actually “not dying” is a crucial part in any PvP match because if you’re dead you’re not helping your team. Simple.

Holding capture points is the crucial part in any PvP match. That’s the thing you can’t do in stealth.

Just like when a thief roams around in stealth, he’s not helping his team. He’s not contesting points, he’s not doing any DPS, and he’s no CCing anything. If a thief uses stealth to run away, it was a win for you- he didn’t get 5 points for stomping you, you didn’t get 5 points for stomping him, and neither of you are running back from spawn. As long as you didn’t somehow lose the capture point (it’s nearly impossible, considering how stealth works), you won that fight.

Did you considered the fact that those good things are uptime half a time you are capable to have Stealth up?

Of course, because they’re more powerful.

Did you know that dodge is, in fact, a 0.75s invulnerability?

Fantastic – when I can LS while in the middle of a dodge, When I can count on Dodge to keep me on a point for 5s to prevent the neutralize, when Dodge can be used while immobilized, we’ll consider the matter closed. Til then, thief has no access to invuln or psuedo-invuln (like endure pain).

Did you know that Thief and Rangers are the only two professions who have a trait which maximize the endurance regeneration?

Yup, we’ve gone over this. I have no issue with Thief as is – I certainly don’t consider them UP in the defensive department. I only have an issue with people crying (This time I am addressing this specifically to you) about how unstoppable thieves are with stealth and evasion, considering their lack of access to every other defensive mechanic in the game.

Did you know that Thief, if you look closely, have access to invulnerability? It has only a different name, which is “evade”.
Did you know that Pistol Whip has 2s of “evade”?

Oh man, how could I have forgotten about Pistol whip? I mean, it’s such an obviously well designed skill. On top of that All the top thieves run it, because it’s just so kitten good. I feel silly for having somehow never thought of using PW.
[/sarcasm]
If you’ve resorted to pointing out a technicality that you know (since you play a thief, right?) is entirely worthless atm, you know your argument is weak. As Daecello also pointed out, you’ve more than doubled the evade time in your estimate. Like I said when you claimed sword struck for “1.5k average”, go to gw2skills.net and check your facts before posting. Spreading disinformation is harmful to new players, and makes you look silly, considering the ease of access.

Protection is pretty much worthless, trust me.

I know you specifically feel this way (you’ve said it in other threads that I’ve responded to) and I continue to wonder if you’re that dense or just an incredibly dedicated troll. I don’t think there’s a quicker way to discredit yourself than to say “Reducing damage taken by 1/3rd is pretty much worthless”. Also, if thats the way you feel, exactly what is your problem with LS? What boons is an S/D thief stealing that’s just completely wrecking your Boon bunker build if it’s not protection?

Necro has some access to it due to Spectral skills, while they have no access to evades, movement skills or stealth.
Try protection on a GC Necro and tell me how are you doing into tanking people.

We’re talking thieves here man, Focus! How well a necro does with protection doesn’t factor in. I’ve also specifically pointed out, we’re not talking Tanking – we’re talking about defensive boons keeping you in the fight long enough to pull of your burst combo, which is basically the only thing a GC spec’d anything cares about – downing their target with their burst.

Constantly changing the subject also doesn’t look good for your side of the argument.

1. Protection is pretty much worthless for a simple reason. It reduces the damage, it doesn’t cancel it.
Since this game is based on just some skills which deals massive damage while sustained damage is pretty much non-existent, dodge is always better than protection. The Necro example is to make you guys understand how protection is without evasion: worthless.

2. Exactly, when did we stated that the subject of the argument is protection on GC? Wasn’t it started because someone said that boons and invulnerabilities are better than stealth and evades? Wasn’t it the reason because FS got buffed?

3. The boon stolen which wrecks bunker is Vigor. All the boon bunkers have that boon always up. Protection is up more or less 1/4 of the time, it doesn’t really help to survive.

4. @evilapprentice: which invulnerability allows you to do damage while invulnerable? Only distortion. All the boon-bunkers, which you said they have access to invulnerability too, can’t attack while invulnerable (Mist Form, Renewed Focus).

5. @daecollo: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invulnerability
Look at the first line. " It does not prevent damage from existing conditions, fall damage, or environmental traps.".

6. @daecollo: you forgot about this in your “poor thief’s endurance regen” argument: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vigorous_Recovery

7. As I pointed out before, compared to any other defensive mechanic in this game, stealth, evades and mobility allow thief to build GC without any downside. This is what makes them so strong as defensive mechanic and that’s why they are always better than any other invulnerability or boon.

Vigorous Recovery? Why would I take that over 50% Stealth Movement Speed?

You can’t get that, and why would you? It relies on using a healing ability, I would rather save it for when I need it. Its a waste of stealth/cures.

Its unreliable and gimmicky.

Protection is amazing if you know how to use it correctly, however I don’t see if you can see how it works.

I thought this topic was about Flanking Strike?…

Master of Timespace.2548:

Dahkeus.8243:

sorrow.2364:

Daecollo.9578:

I can see how bunker boon users would be angry about flanking strike, however its rock paper scissors, I think Warrior and Ranger elites should have there boons split a bit so they arn’t as effected by this however the ability itself is fine.

Any boon removal in this game isn’t capable to constantly cleanse the enemy out of their boons. They mostly annoy the boon-user if you are good enough to use your boon strips at the right time, to strip the most crucial boons.

Once you give to some profession the tool to completely wipe any boon out of your enemy for some reasons (probably they want boons out of the meta), you should adjust any other boon-hate skills according to your game design decision, or your buff will become imbalanced.

Counter-example: Mesmer 1h sword autoattack. With clones up boons are removed exponentially faster since clones from dodge and illusionary leap attack with the same ability.

That’s not very practical unless you happen to be fighting a scarecrow. Then again, scarecrows don’t use boons.

Really? Since when was it hard to land an auto-attack on a moving target. It’s so easy, even clones can do it.

Also, lol @ protection as worthless.

Daecollo.9578:

Vigorous Recovery? Why would I take that over 50% Stealth Movement Speed?

You can’t get that, and why would you? It relies on using a healing ability, I would rather save it for when I need it. Its a waste of stealth/cures.

Its unreliable and gimmicky.

Protection is amazing if you know how to use it correctly, however I don’t see if you can see how it works.

I thought this topic was about Flanking Strike?…

Why would you pick Vigorous Recovery?
Because when it is combined with Withdraw (which is an amazing healing skill), it is a wondeful trait, while 50% Stealth Movement Speed is worthless anyway because the bonus is 33%, not 50 as the trait says, just like the swiftness you get on dodge.

And no, it is far from unreliable and gimmicky.

Protection is alwasy worse than a well timed dodge, ALWAYS.
The only situation I would say Protection is useful is against a minion army, but we know how many MM are around…

sorrow.2364
The Thief is the only class which has a dodge !!!

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Endure_Pain
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Arcane_Shield
And many other abilities

And point 4 is so ridiculous that it is not worth even commenting

Rangers have Evade: 1 s on there greatsword’s autoattack… That is the same as Pistol Whip and Death Blossom’s Evade combined.

Daecollo.9578:

Rangers have Evade: 1 s on there greatsword’s autoattack… That is the same as Pistol Whip and Death Blossom’s Evade combined.

What do you want to tell me by saying that?

Complains that fs removes boons from boon reliant class (mostly because of regen and protection, those class spam vigor so it being removed doesn’t really matter)
End up saying Protection is worthless.

Another priceless thread in the thief forum.

Protection is amazing. My bunker guardian in WvW full times vigor, protection, regen and retaliation. I can face tank 2-3 people without breaking a sweat. I can also reapply boons faster than a S/D thief can take them from me by simply moving around a lot and using my blinds and CC’s and hitting him. Once the thief gets low on ini or HP they always back away, and when they back away I always run from them to force them waste cooldowns or ini to chase me. Its an effective strategy, and I havent lost a 1v1 yet doing it to a s/d thief. Theres been lots of times where they ran from me or didnt chase me though.

Honestly, I think it needs a bit more of a buff. Today for instance I was attacked by a s/d thief, plus a glass cannon mesmer and a ranger (no idea what he used other than a longbow). Know what happened? I kited them for 10 minutes before they managed to kill me, and I downed the thief once. This is on a slow moving guardian, that relies almost entirely on boons to stay alive. And youre saying S/D thief is somehow in need of a nerf? I think youre crazy.

sorrow.2364:

Protection is alwasy worse than a well timed dodge, ALWAYS.
The only situation I would say Protection is useful is against a minion army, but we know how many MM are around…

This logic is so broken, I’m not even sure where to start…

No one is arguing whether the protection boon is better than a dodge.

Protection and dodging aren’t mutually exclusive.

And wth is this about minion armies? Are you saying that you dodge everything? If you somehow evade every hit of damage, then please post a video of this godliness. For us mortals, however, protection means that your enemy has to do 33% more damage to kill you, which is easily the difference between whether you survive to use your heal when it comes off cooldown or whether you can live until you have the endurance to dodge that next shatter from the mesmer or whether that next backstab will drop you, etc.

Puru.4217:

Complains that fs removes boons from boon reliant class (mostly because of regen and protection, those class spam vigor so it being removed doesn’t really matter)
End up saying Protection is worthless.

Another priceless thread in the thief forum.

Yea, that captures it in a nutshell, rofl!

Puru.4217:

Complains that fs removes boons from boon reliant class (mostly because of regen and protection, those class spam vigor so it being removed doesn’t really matter)
End up saying Protection is worthless.

Another priceless thread in the thief forum.

Oh man, why are people that stupid?

wish.1027:

Protection is amazing. My bunker guardian in WvW full times vigor, protection, regen and retaliation. I can face tank 2-3 people without breaking a sweat. I can also reapply boons faster than a S/D thief can take them from me by simply moving around a lot and using my blinds and CC’s and hitting him. Once the thief gets low on ini or HP they always back away, and when they back away I always run from them to force them waste cooldowns or ini to chase me. Its an effective strategy, and I havent lost a 1v1 yet doing it to a s/d thief. Theres been lots of times where they ran from me or didnt chase me though.

Honestly, I think it needs a bit more of a buff. Today for instance I was attacked by a s/d thief, plus a glass cannon mesmer and a ranger (no idea what he used other than a longbow). Know what happened? I kited them for 10 minutes before they managed to kill me, and I downed the thief once. This is on a slow moving guardian, that relies almost entirely on boons to stay alive. And youre saying S/D thief is somehow in need of a nerf? I think youre crazy.

I think WvW doesn’t really matter when evaluating how good something is.
There are too much parameters, laggs and everything that changes a lot in WvWvW. Try the same build you’re running in sPvP/tPvP.
Once an S/D thief come, you’ll see you won’t last that long.

Dahkeus.8243:

This logic is so broken, I’m not even sure where to start…

No one is arguing whether the protection boon is better than a dodge.

Protection and dodging aren’t mutually exclusive.

And wth is this about minion armies? Are you saying that you dodge everything? If you somehow evade every hit of damage, then please post a video of this godliness. For us mortals, however, protection means that your enemy has to do 33% more damage to kill you, which is easily the difference between whether you survive to use your heal when it comes off cooldown or whether you can live until you have the endurance to dodge that next shatter from the mesmer or whether that next backstab will drop you, etc.

Did you even undestood what I tried to say in one page of topic?
Seriously, you came here and say something which doesn’t really regards the dicussion, also with an arrogant tone.

I said that protection is useful only against a minion army, because it deals sustained damage over time, while, in any other average situation, having a dodge left is always better than having protection on.

Since some professions haven’t access to both vigor and protection while some have access to more dodge/evading compared to others, there is a reason behind comparing them. It looks like you don’t even know why we are comparing dodge to protection. Man, read the topic, then answer. Or, if you don’t want to read it first, don’t aggresively attack other people with your assumptions.

But hey, this is the thief forum. I don’t even know why I’m losing my time here.
I have too much faith in human’s race.

sorrow.2364:

Puru.4217:

Complains that fs removes boons from boon reliant class (mostly because of regen and protection, those class spam vigor so it being removed doesn’t really matter)
End up saying Protection is worthless.

Another priceless thread in the thief forum.

Oh man, why are people that stupid?

wish.1027:

Protection is amazing. My bunker guardian in WvW full times vigor, protection, regen and retaliation. I can face tank 2-3 people without breaking a sweat. I can also reapply boons faster than a S/D thief can take them from me by simply moving around a lot and using my blinds and CC’s and hitting him. Once the thief gets low on ini or HP they always back away, and when they back away I always run from them to force them waste cooldowns or ini to chase me. Its an effective strategy, and I havent lost a 1v1 yet doing it to a s/d thief. Theres been lots of times where they ran from me or didnt chase me though.

Honestly, I think it needs a bit more of a buff. Today for instance I was attacked by a s/d thief, plus a glass cannon mesmer and a ranger (no idea what he used other than a longbow). Know what happened? I kited them for 10 minutes before they managed to kill me, and I downed the thief once. This is on a slow moving guardian, that relies almost entirely on boons to stay alive. And youre saying S/D thief is somehow in need of a nerf? I think youre crazy.

I think WvW doesn’t really matter when evaluating how good something is.
There are too much parameters, laggs and everything that changes a lot in WvWvW. Try the same build you’re running in sPvP/tPvP.
Once an S/D thief come, you’ll see you won’t last that long.

Dahkeus.8243:

This logic is so broken, I’m not even sure where to start…

No one is arguing whether the protection boon is better than a dodge.

Protection and dodging aren’t mutually exclusive.

And wth is this about minion armies? Are you saying that you dodge everything? If you somehow evade every hit of damage, then please post a video of this godliness. For us mortals, however, protection means that your enemy has to do 33% more damage to kill you, which is easily the difference between whether you survive to use your heal when it comes off cooldown or whether you can live until you have the endurance to dodge that next shatter from the mesmer or whether that next backstab will drop you, etc.

Did you even undestood what I tried to say in one page of topic?
Seriously, you came here and say something which doesn’t really regards the dicussion, also with an arrogant tone.

I said that protection is useful only against a minion army, because it deals sustained damage over time, while, in any other average situation, having a dodge left is always better than having protection on.

Since some professions haven’t access to both vigor and protection while some have access to more dodge/evading compared to others, there is a reason behind comparing them. It looks like you don’t even know why we are comparing dodge to protection. Man, read the topic, then answer. Or, if you don’t want to read it first, don’t aggresively attack other people with your assumptions.

But hey, this is the thief forum. I don’t even know why I’m losing my time here.
I have too much faith in human’s race.

The arrogant tone is warranted. You wheel heedlessly from example to example, some completely made up (“1.5k average sword hits”,“PW is 2 seconds of evasion”), and others completely off topic (“See how a necro GC does with protection” when we’re talking about thieves) in a desperate attempt to prove a point that most concur is incorrect. You refuse to acknowledge where these magical numbers came from when called out on it, and give kitten psuedo explanations as to why you’re bringing off topic things into the discussion then sweep them aside to keep hammering at a point everyone but you in this thread has come to – there’s nothing wrong with FS and LS.

Furthermore, you devalue genuinely powerful abilities (IE protection) because they are inconsistent with your opinion – you are trying desperately to warp the facts around your opinions and treat us all like morons when we don’t concur.

You’ve got a weak point that most dont agree with specifically because it’s wrong, so you’re trying (perhaps subconciously) to spin a web of bullkitten and dismissal that’s condescending, convoluted, and at times spun out of thin air because, again, the facts don’t fit your opinion, so clearly he facts are wrong.

Go on, take a break from the forums. Try to have fun in this horribly balanced BS game that’s so obviously run by the stealth abusing FS spamming thief Illuminati of your worst nightmares.

FS was not overbuffed. FS has a coefficient of .75 and LS has a coefficient of 1.5. FS is required to pull off LS. The total maximum coefficient possible is thus 2.25, which, may I remind you, costs 4 initiative, and both skills require half a second to happen, giving you plenty of time to evade or block, or counterstrike. Furthermore, LS is essentially the Sword equivalent of CnD; it has an extremely similar animation and requires a very close distance that shouts “hey, imma use my LS now, be ready!”. Also, as mentioned by Jumper and Markus, it’s one of the main skills on the bar, meaning that we have a lot of the skills on our bar restricted to us, like Dancing Dagger (which is usable, but only in specific situations), and CnD (which is just stupid to use, in all honesty).

The skill was not overbuffed. One has good range but a sucky coefficient, and the other has a decent coefficient (equal to a mid-damage HS) but a sucky range, and requires the first skill to be used.

Overbuffed? Uh, no.

EDIT: also, LS is a hard counter to boons. Don’t like it? Don’t run boons. It’s that simple. You might as well complain that necros should be nerfed because they ruin your stack of boons with Corrupt Boons. That’s not a requirement for a nerf, that’s just a requirement for you to change your play style.

evilapprentice.6379:

Go on, take a break from the forums. Try to have fun in this horribly balanced BS game that’s so obviously run by the stealth abusing FS spamming thief Illuminati of your worst nightmares.

Made my day.

Eugenides.1274:

sorrow.2364:

I liked the old Flanking Strike, I played that set in the age where D/D backstab and heartseeker spammers were rampant and have a lot of fun with it.

The single boon removal, the dodge and the unforgiving pathing made that skill a real challange giving great results if user properly.
I needed to know where is the right position to cast it to make the skill land, I needed to know when to use it to remove the right boon because I wasn’t able to afford to spam it to remove all the boons.

I think your first little bit there is exactly the reason why S/D needed a buff. You were nerfing yourself if you use S/D anywhere. It’s actually sort of viable now in PVP and WvW.

I also disagree with your second paragraph. The old Flanking Strike was a poorly designed skill that lacked polish. There was too much random chance surrounding it. You shouldn’t have to cross your fingers every time you use a skill and hope that the pathing didn’t send you out of range of a target instead of behind them like the skill states.

Splitting the skill into two attacks was also a move in the right direction. Look at the Ranger and how many of their melee attack animations are locked. It’s horrible. You lose control of your character.

Does the damage need some balancing? Absolutely.

do u mean that LS should be downgraded on dmg a lil? i hope ur proposing that TS be upgraded equally then TS is horrible :P pffft bad dmg

Probably should just bend over and accept the change god knows what broken overpowered mechanic thieves would get next if they nerf FS.

id trade a lil damage for a lil defense any day …any bunker fighting a thief hits like a truck even with toughness vitality condition armor. thieves die so fast its sickening…. pretty much any other class can wade into a group of 5 and survive decnently for a short time….thieves would last 1 second. basically it comes at a trade off. thief cant even outdmg a necro in wvw cumulatively

Are you playing guildwars 2?

yeah….full ascended and legendary almost 3 legendareis (looking for 2 precursors now) full achievements on home char screen…over 6k achievment points…… i only play thief guardian necro and a very little bit of engie. i have 130 laurels left after spending 40 or w.e. for the ascended…i have over 60 guild commedations from missions and over 2.5million karma left and well had about 6k badges but blew many of traps and weapons i thru into the MF lol….im a gambler. 230g left several thousand fractal relics 30 pristine relics 4 full sets of exo armor for my thief alone and similar for other 80s…. 6 sets of weapons for thief all exo and legendary dreamer and firebringer and just now making the ilya and the quiver of swift flight plus full bank of ectos plus half full of t6s…. i do play a lil i guess :P

wow that’s alot of pve.

Ya it was overbuffed they can take me down pretty easily on my hgh engy they literally spam it 4x and im down to 30% health and all my might stacks are gone then they stealth and wait for initiative or use the shadow step skill. I play hgh engi they shred me apart

It also has a low skill ceiling. The problem with theives is if it’s a bad theif they will still be good because they can stealth or use their ridiculous teleports making them unkillable pretty much

i actually dont pve much. i did for the first 2-3 months i played…after thakittens all wvw…its why i only have 230 g :P cant make much money in wvw when using gold on food every 30 mins lol. ive prolly spent 5k badges in the mystic forge alone. nevermind the others for traps….gear….. siege……etc. i only do like 5-10 spvp tpvp an evening …im not big on the zerging in spvp as i like to use tactics and aim to win….basically bring builds for winning…not farming glory. and tpvp i do as with my guild….BP

they had a few interesting things to say about this on the “revealed” podcast…essentially the point was: why is it being spammed? because 4 and 5 aren’t good enough on s/d. if it gets significantly nerfed, those should be balanced up…

so how could all skills in s/d work together better? maybe a longer daze/better damage on the sword sneak attack. and a longer cripple on dancing dagger. maybe shadow return heals/removes conditions if stealthed. synergy like the synergy in d/p would be great.

engineers r great but hard to master. strait forward but ground targeting is tough when in small numbers