Guild Wars 2

I’ve played this game since beta, and spent most of my time in spvp, but recently I’ve found myself getting bored with the game and have been playing the game very briefly on and off for a few months now. Recently I got back into the mood and tried doing some matches with my thief, who I’ve spent over 1300 hours playing, and find myself unable to kill anyone. Every fight I do, it feels like I have to greatly outplay my opponent to accomplish anything at all.

Annoyed, I jump on my engineer, who I’ve played maybe 30 hours with, join the same room, and I steamroll everyone with complete ease. I can even do 1vxs without much problem. Alright, maybe engineer is just stupidly powerful, so I try a d/d and d/f ele. Same result. I try a axe/sword longbow warrior. Same result. And power and condi necromancer. Same result.

Confused, I go on my thief again, and I can’t kill anyone like last time. I found a little more success with s/d than d/p, but not by much. Has anyone else had similar experiences with their thief?

Assuming that you played at average skill level of gameplay, I’de say this is the definition of overnerfing. But then again there is no way to measure it.

Wvw or spvp ? Try 602006. Panic strike with devourer. Watch your enemies go “wtf?!???” When they eat a 10s immob…

swinsk.6410:

Wvw or spvp ? Try 602006. Panic strike with devourer. Watch your enemies go “wtf?!???” When they eat a 10s immob…

(When I use panic strike) I like to split the usage of the 2, letting PS proc, trying to interrupt the clear, and then applying DV if they clear or the PS immob runs out.

I don’t recall any specific time when thief was buffed – atleast substantually – so if you notice a change it should be a nerf.

I think some the problem is that thief (an many of the profession for that matter) start to work at a lower effectiveness the better players get at the game in its entirety. For a small bit in the beginning the cc to hundred-blades warrior was a fearsome thing (and the warriors would like nothing more to go back to that day). So that could be some of the perceived effect.

Loki.8793:

Every fight I do, it feels like I have to greatly outplay my opponent to accomplish anything at all.

This pretty much sums it up. While thieves have to take every single thing into consideration like timing, positioning, openings, when to back off, when to blind/cc/interrupt etc most classes lately can pretty much roll their faces against the keys and be as (if not more) effective. I know when I’m being outplayed and happily accept that, even whisper the players to tell them how their play was epic and we have a great chat about it. But I also know when I’m fighting against someone I out skill by quite a bit, yet the pressure is still on due to the lack of balance between the damage they dish out and the endless and effortless defenses they have. I’m at that point where I’m pretty much desensitized to it, but it’s mildly irritating when someone is quick to jump to “omg thieves are op” when a thief beats them and it took a hell of a lot of effort to do it.

It sounds like you and I are having the same issue. I can hop on my other characters and feel highly effective. I can also win 1v1s with ease on those characters. However, as soon as I hop on my thief, 1v1 situations become a nightmare. If I make any mistakes I get wrecked. I have also loved the thief/rogue/assassin type classes and I desperately want my thief to be my main. However, I always find myself switching to one of my other characters after the reoccurring disappointment of losing to someone who is wasting dodges and using skills simply because they are off of cooldown.

I think with pure DPS builds coming into favor (seeing it a lot in solo queue lately), we just need to be smarter with how we approach fights as thieves.

I’m finding the thief class (particularly D/P) to be in a good (probably strong) place at the moment.

So, a bit of an update on my situation, after spending a few days playing with thief I’m starting to win my 1v1s again with d/p. The only profession I can’t seem to kill are condi engineers, but I expected that. (This is in spvp, btw)

The build I’ve found the most success with is the panic strike 6/0/2/0/6 build for d/p. I’ve curiously never tried it before yesterday, and I’m hitting myself for not trying it earlier. Before I could never see myself without executioner, but with 6 points into deadly arts, I don’t even notice the difference.

Though, while I’m able to win most of my 1v1s again, I still have the same problem of feeling like I have to greatly outplay my opponent if I am to win. Ironically, the only profession I don’t have to put a lot of effort to win against is other thieves. When I rejoice at seeing a thief over any other profession, I can’t help but feel something is wrong.

However, while I’ve found better success with thief, I’ve found even greater success with the other professions. The axe/sword longbow celestial warrior is stupidly good at 1v1s, I’ve even found myself paying attention to my other monitor when playing it sometimes. And the hambow build destroys team fights with facerolling your keyboard.

Both meta engineer builds are amazing. I almost rarely go down, and I can often win 1v2s and even a 1v3 in one case. What I’ve found when playing engineer is I don’t seem to even be trying to actively hit my opponent. When I take damage or pressure, I just kite away while throwing aoes all over the place, and when I look back after I recover, my opponent is already at half hp. What? Why is that so strong? I honestly get mad when playing my engineer because I would never be able to have as much success with my thief as I do with it.

And the new power ranger is just hilarious. I’ve killed thieves with a single auto attack and a hasted rapid fire more times than I can count. S/f fresh air eles are also stupidly good when you can just blow up any thief you see in under a second while having amazing defensive abilities such as 4/5 earth, 4 air, and arcane utilities.

While I’ve mained thief since beta, having over 1300 of my time dedicated solely to playing it, and finding it the most fun class to play, I’m finding more and more reason to not use it in sPvP aside from having fun. The other professions and builds just outshine it in nearly every way, and can do exactly what it can do with half the effort and dedication. When I have to spend every ounce of my concentration to win a 1v1 on my thief, and then switch over to a profession I’ve played 30 hours with and can win 1v2s with ease, it makes me want to quit the game altogether.

It’s frustrating. It really is.

Thief is fine, in a team setting it’s much stronger than both Power Ranger and SF Ele. Thief can’t run around randomly anymore though with all the DPS flying around. You need to actually pay attention to your surroundings and learn to not overextend without all your cooldowns ready. If you really wanna be a 1v1 hero get better at SD thief. 1v1 is not DPs role, and you need to be really good at DP in order to 1v1 the other meta specs.

Loki.8793:

I’ve played this game since beta, and spent most of my time in spvp, but recently I’ve found myself getting bored with the game and have been playing the game very briefly on and off for a few months now. Recently I got back into the mood and tried doing some matches with my thief, who I’ve spent over 1300 hours playing, and find myself unable to kill anyone. Every fight I do, it feels like I have to greatly outplay my opponent to accomplish anything at all.

Annoyed, I jump on my engineer, who I’ve played maybe 30 hours with, join the same room, and I steamroll everyone with complete ease. I can even do 1vxs without much problem. Alright, maybe engineer is just stupidly powerful, so I try a d/d and d/f ele. Same result. I try a axe/sword longbow warrior. Same result. And power and condi necromancer. Same result.

Confused, I go on my thief again, and I can’t kill anyone like last time. I found a little more success with s/d than d/p, but not by much. Has anyone else had similar experiences with their thief?

Yup theives have gotten consistently nerfed and it’s really bc players just gripe about how strong they are…theives are strong I do think so, but it’s not the class that makes the player it’s te player that makes the class…they were op then they were fine then they just kept it pouring on. The lastest thing has kittened me off the most about blinding powder not blinding every second…like if ur dumb enough to stand in it u deserve to be blinded…wtf why make it easier for stupid players? I wouldn’t stand inside a lavafont that’d hurt.

epoc.7941:

Yup theives have gotten consistently nerfed and it’s really bc players just gripe about how strong they are…theives are strong I do think so, but it’s not the class that makes the player it’s te player that makes the class…they were op then they were fine then they just kept it pouring on. The lastest thing has kittened me off the most about blinding powder not blinding every second…like if ur dumb enough to stand in it u deserve to be blinded…wtf why make it easier for stupid players? I wouldn’t stand inside a lavafont that’d hurt.

You probably mean Black Powder. And it was nerfed, as far as I recall, mainly because of two reasons. Firstly, it made any and all interrupt downstate skills (Warrior #2, Ranger #2, etc.) completely useless. It’s still hard to get a hit now, but at least there’s a chance now that they can get a hit off. And before you start about stability and whatnot, skills that supply that buff are usually on a long-ish cooldown, while Black Powder in theory has none.

The second reason was because it allowed thieves to just solo all sorts of bosses and other mobs that are supposed to present a bit of a challenge without any trouble. Just use Black Powder once every 4 or 5 seconds and spam auto attack until it’s dead.

Black Powder is still plenty strong and retains the uses it had before. It’s just not a complete crutch anymore.

Kreed.2768:

You probably mean Black Powder. And it was nerfed, as far as I recall, mainly because of two reasons. Firstly, it made any and all interrupt downstate skills (Warrior #2, Ranger #2, etc.) completely useless. It’s still hard to get a hit now, but at least there’s a chance now that they can get a hit off. And before you start about stability and whatnot, skills that supply that buff are usually on a long-ish cooldown, while Black Powder in theory has none.

The second reason was because it allowed thieves to just solo all sorts of bosses and other mobs that are supposed to present a bit of a challenge without any trouble. Just use Black Powder once every 4 or 5 seconds and spam auto attack until it’s dead.

Black Powder is still plenty strong and retains the uses it had before. It’s just not a complete crutch anymore.

I think the sole reason was black powder on downed targets. You can’t say thieves could use black powder to tank bosses because Unshakable made blinding wholly ineffective by making only 10% of the boss’ attacks miss.

In my eyes that is sleazy, especially on a mechanic that doesn’t entirely fit into this game.

It’s just Anet’s way of telling thieves we shouldn’t be able to stomp, I mean, first they gave sword 2 cast to stop us from using it for stomps, then BP nerfed. I believe someone from Anet even said thieves should bring pistol offhand for stomping (when the sword 2 nerf hit us). What next, SB 5 disabled when near downed enemy?

BP was overpowered in a lot of scenarios, sorry to say.
The fact I went undefeated in a guild PvP and duelling session my first day in sPvP against people who dumped thousands of hours into their classes, builds, and strategies while playing as a P/P healing power/dwayna build based around blind-spamming my enemies to death and healing back whatever I took instantly kind of demonstrated that permanent blinding effects needed to get changed.

Thief suffers a lot in sPvP because of nerfed skill damage, lower stat scaling, and higher player defenses than in WvW/PvE, making their burst weak and low health pools and lack of defensive options outside of spamming evades require a lot of effort to survive with.

I feel you dude! I main a thief for almost a year now and it’s really been nerf to oblivion. Its so bad that it forces thief players to not 1v1 the majority of classes in the game. I felt like quitting the game after what happened to my thief. My alts had no problem what so ever in pvp.

Kreed.2768:

You probably mean Black Powder. And it was nerfed, as far as I recall, mainly because of two reasons. Firstly, it made any and all interrupt downstate skills (Warrior #2, Ranger #2, etc.) completely useless. It’s still hard to get a hit now, but at least there’s a chance now that they can get a hit off. And before you start about stability and whatnot, skills that supply that buff are usually on a long-ish cooldown, while Black Powder in theory has none.

This is very inaccurate. BP was a hard counter to Warrior, Engineer and Necro downed interrupts. It was a skill check for Guardians and Rangers. Ranger/Guard Players with a modicum of experience and the ability to count could easily clear the blind with their DS AA and then hit their interrupt.

The second reason was because it allowed thieves to just solo all sorts of bosses and other mobs that are supposed to present a bit of a challenge without any trouble. Just use Black Powder once every 4 or 5 seconds and spam auto attack until it’s dead.

So nerf it in PvE, leave it alone in PvP.

Black Powder is still plenty strong and retains the uses it had before. It’s just not a complete crutch anymore.

No, it’s an overpriced gate into stealth now, and that’s it. More on that below.

DeceiverX.8361:

BP was overpowered in a lot of scenarios, sorry to say.

No, it wasn’t. It was arguably OP in countering 3/8 of the games classes down state interrupts, that’s it.

The fact I went undefeated in a guild PvP and duelling session my first day in sPvP against people who dumped thousands of hours into their classes, builds, and strategies while playing as a P/P healing power/dwayna build based around blind-spamming my enemies to death and healing back whatever I took instantly kind of demonstrated that permanent blinding effects needed to get changed.

1 Players anecdotal experience is not enough to claim something is OP. Even if it was, an abilities efficacy in duels has nothing to do with whether or not it’s OP, since this a team oriented capture point game – if it wasn’t, PU mesmers and P/D thieves would rule SPvP.

BP used to be a skill check and a forced reposition tool. If your target sat in the circle and whiffed attacks, you knew they were still relatively inexperienced. Otherwise, all BP forced another player to do was change his positioning…which was a good thing for thief, the mobility based class that takes advantage of bad positioning.

Now, any class can just sit in the BP circle and still win the DPS race, because 1 missed attack every 2 seconds isn’t enough to keep a squishy, low HP thief ahead of the curve.

BP is now a 6 initiative skill that lets everyone around you know “Prepare your interrupts, I’m going to try going into stealth!” Why is that, you might ask? Because 19 times out of 20, if you need a blind, shadow shot is the better candidate. It does 4-5 times more damage (I forget the exact multipliers off the top of my head), costs 2 less init, the blind cant be blocked or reflected, And it puts you into melee, which is where a D/P thief wants to be with his target most of the time. The only reason you’d choose BP over shadow shot 19 times out of 20 is because you’re planning on going into stealth.

So there you go – BP used to be a useful ability that could be used skillfully to force your opponent to reposition. Now it’s a 6 init warning to your opponents that you’re most likely going to be trying to enter stealth.

well for the past 2 years or so anet did nothing but nerf thief every single patch while handling cookies out to classes like engi…. no surprise here really

thieves are viable but as you said you have to outplay your opponent while on engi or dd ele it is often enough to drool on keyboard to win fight

The thief had a patch with only buffs in it, once. You guys can’t complain anymore that it’s “every single patch”.

Zero Day.2594:

The thief had a patch with only buffs in it, once. You guys can’t complain anymore that it’s “every single patch”.

which is o.o?

Cynz.9437:

Zero Day.2594:

The thief had a patch with only buffs in it, once. You guys can’t complain anymore that it’s “every single patch”.

which is o.o?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-November-4-2014

Only buffs for the thief in this patch, massive game changing buffs. We can no longer say it’s every single patch.

Zero Day.2594:

Cynz.9437:

Zero Day.2594:

The thief had a patch with only buffs in it, once. You guys can’t complain anymore that it’s “every single patch”.

which is o.o?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-November-4-2014

Only buffs for the thief in this patch, massive game changing buffs. We can no longer say it’s every single patch.

omg i am dying… hahahahahahaaa
but ya technically we can’t lol

Cynz.9437:

Zero Day.2594:

Cynz.9437:

Zero Day.2594:

The thief had a patch with only buffs in it, once. You guys can’t complain anymore that it’s “every single patch”.

which is o.o?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-November-4-2014

Only buffs for the thief in this patch, massive game changing buffs. We can no longer say it’s every single patch.

omg i am dying… hahahahahahaaa
but ya technically we can’t lol

Cynz.9437:

technically

I think they made that patch for a reason tbh…

No thief hasn’t been nerf to the ground… It the cele meta that drove them out

Not in today’s patch!!! Now that is new…

Volrath.1473:

Not in today’s patch!!! Now that is new…

they couldn’t figure out what to nerf next while pretending it is a buff

Cynz.9437:

Volrath.1473:

Not in today’s patch!!! Now that is new…

they couldn’t figure out what to nerf next while pretending it is a buff

Well golly gosh…. isn’t there a thread full of nerf requests/suggestions.

Zero Day.2594:

Cynz.9437:

Volrath.1473:

Not in today’s patch!!! Now that is new…

they couldn’t figure out what to nerf next while pretending it is a buff

Well golly gosh…. isn’t there a thread full of nerf requests/suggestions.

yeah but they have to formulate it the way that it sounds like a buff and not a nerf xD

i still can’t believe they took joke nerf thread serious tho…

Cynz.9437:

Zero Day.2594:

Cynz.9437:

Volrath.1473:

Not in today’s patch!!! Now that is new…

they couldn’t figure out what to nerf next while pretending it is a buff

Well golly gosh…. isn’t there a thread full of nerf requests/suggestions.

yeah but they have to formulate it the way that it sounds like a buff and not a nerf xD

i still can’t believe they took joke nerf thread serious tho…

I like to think that it was just an odd coincidence, honestly.

As for formulating it into a way that sounds like a buff, that’s easy! Let’s take for instance:

Zero Day.2594:

Originally by: Niels.5396
What: nerfs on the short bow
Why: it pains me to see people playing thief that evade endlessly. Spamming 3 on their short bows while dodging and auto attacking. … The short bow is the real evil here.
Suggestion: more nerfs on the short bow rather than more nerfs on the vigor uptime.
Thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Thief-nerf-3

“Now we felt that when thief players switched to a shortbow mid-fight that they were cornered into using Disabling Shot (3) during the fight. We felt that shaving off a functionality from Disabling Shot would expand the amount of choices the thief player would have in combat with a shortbow. Disabling Shot will no longer proc the evade effect. From this patch we should see thief players being able to decide between different skills more and engage in an active playstyle that we believe is fun.”

Volrath.1473:

Not in today’s patch!!! Now that is new…

Actually…
See, if I still had some hope for the game and the thief-class (no, it’s not because I’m bummed about the thief class that I can’t bring my self to play the game, there are other game issues), I would have probably originally responded directly to you instead of Cynz and would have probably said something like “Yaya, rejoice! We’ve been forgotten this patch! Celebrate! We get to keep our builds for another day/patch iteration!”

Loki.8793:

So, a bit of an update on my situation, after spending a few days playing with thief I’m starting to win my 1v1s again with d/p. The only profession I can’t seem to kill are condi engineers, but I expected that. (This is in spvp, btw)

The build I’ve found the most success with is the panic strike 6/0/2/0/6 build for d/p. I’ve curiously never tried it before yesterday, and I’m hitting myself for not trying it earlier. Before I could never see myself without executioner, but with 6 points into deadly arts, I don’t even notice the difference.

Though, while I’m able to win most of my 1v1s again, I still have the same problem of feeling like I have to greatly outplay my opponent if I am to win. Ironically, the only profession I don’t have to put a lot of effort to win against is other thieves. When I rejoice at seeing a thief over any other profession, I can’t help but feel something is wrong.

However, while I’ve found better success with thief, I’ve found even greater success with the other professions. The axe/sword longbow celestial warrior is stupidly good at 1v1s, I’ve even found myself paying attention to my other monitor when playing it sometimes. And the hambow build destroys team fights with facerolling your keyboard.

Both meta engineer builds are amazing. I almost rarely go down, and I can often win 1v2s and even a 1v3 in one case. What I’ve found when playing engineer is I don’t seem to even be trying to actively hit my opponent. When I take damage or pressure, I just kite away while throwing aoes all over the place, and when I look back after I recover, my opponent is already at half hp. What? Why is that so strong? I honestly get mad when playing my engineer because I would never be able to have as much success with my thief as I do with it.

And the new power ranger is just hilarious. I’ve killed thieves with a single auto attack and a hasted rapid fire more times than I can count. S/f fresh air eles are also stupidly good when you can just blow up any thief you see in under a second while having amazing defensive abilities such as 4/5 earth, 4 air, and arcane utilities.

---

While I’ve mained thief since beta, having over 1300 of my time dedicated solely to playing it, and finding it the most fun class to play, I’m finding more and more reason to not use it in sPvP aside from having fun. The other professions and builds just outshine it in nearly every way, and can do exactly what it can do with half the effort and dedication. When I have to spend every ounce of my concentration to win a 1v1 on my thief, and then switch over to a profession I’ve played 30 hours with and can win 1v2s with ease, it makes me want to quit the game altogether.

It’s frustrating. It really is.

+1, quoting this for truth. I love thief playstyle, I love the potential, but the profession is broken right now. I log on to thief, play a game and have to apply extreme concentration to have any measurable effect in combat, while still getting downed in a stiff breeze. Switch to Engie or Guard and just faceroll. I can’t even count the number of matches on (non-bunker) Engie and Guard where I’ve spent the entire game in the middle of combat and not been downed once.

All you really need to see to know that thief is broken is that the current s/d 20066 meta build uses Pain Response as a grandmaster. It’s a 1300 heal that clears 3 specific condis on a 30 second c/d, and only procs if you’re hit while below 75%hp. That trait should be garbage but there it is! ANY other profession would laugh at it and take something actually useful, but that’s the best Thief has in that defensive trait-line.

And don’t get me started on Assassin’s Reward. 69hp per initiative spent is insulting! I’m getting myself angry just thinking about it. Time to go play some relaxing Guardian.

I think s/d thief got a small nerf this patch with the might reduction…. although buff to dancing dagger is sort of nice…. sort of

everything else is clearly for pve and maybe wvw…

still sucking on pvp… sort of.

Thief is so poorly balanced in 1v1 and perhaps even below 3v3… however at 5v5 its balanced, but solely because of its mobility and nothing else. It is the only role we have.. which kinda sucks that we are locked into this role.

Klonko.8341:

No thief hasn’t been nerf to the ground… It the cele meta that drove them out

I would agree. The cele/might stacking meta is just too effective that it pushes Thieves out a bit.

MightyMicah.7451:

Klonko.8341:

No thief hasn’t been nerf to the ground… It the cele meta that drove them out

I would agree. The cele/might stacking meta is just too effective that it pushes Thieves out a bit.

It looks like might stacking is going to be taking a significant hit in the next balance patch.

Maugetarr.6823:

MightyMicah.7451:

Klonko.8341:

No thief hasn’t been nerf to the ground… It the cele meta that drove them out

I would agree. The cele/might stacking meta is just too effective that it pushes Thieves out a bit.

It looks like might stacking is going to be taking a significant hit in the next balance patch.

125 points max isn’t very significant. Just saying

yolo swaggins.2570:

Maugetarr.6823:

MightyMicah.7451:

Klonko.8341:

No thief hasn’t been nerf to the ground… It the cele meta that drove them out

I would agree. The cele/might stacking meta is just too effective that it pushes Thieves out a bit.

It looks like might stacking is going to be taking a significant hit in the next balance patch.

125 points max isn’t very significant. Just saying

33% nerf to sigil of battle, ~14% nerf to might itself. Combined nerf to stacking from sigil of battle is ~43% nerf. It’s not insignificant.

Im talking about the stacking part. Ability to stack is one thing but the stacks are taking a 5 point hit per stack. That is where the true nerf lies.

yolo swaggins.2570:

Im talking about the stacking part. Ability to stack is one thing but the stacks are taking a 5 point hit per stack. That is where the true nerf lies.

Yes, but a lot of the might stacking builds were using battle and doom together. The elimination of 1 stack from the sigil plus the 35->30 means the sigil swap goes from the +105 power/cond it used to offer to +60 power/cond on swap

good point