Guild Wars 2

Iohanna.4863:

Hi, I am the author of Unseen and Deathess + Slayer Thief – and I am also a good friend of Soko D Medo. I’d like to clarify the strengths and weaknesses of Dagger/Pistol (0/10/30/30/0).

In the context of WvW, this allows you to constantly apply pressure to a disorganized zerg. As long as you are present, their Staff Eles, Rangers, Grenadiers and so on are all threatened. It doesn’t matter if you’re only able to engage 1 person at a time. You are like a living condition debuff on the entire zerg, constantly removing/disabling players one at a time. Removing you requires the attention of several players, which leaves the enemy zerg vulnerable to an allied push.

Unfortunately the most you can do to organized zergs like Red Guard is tail them (powerful in its own right, but that’s a topic for another time). When every one of your available targets is located inside a kill-zone, there is nothing your regeneration, blinds, and evasion can do to kill even one of them. Your role is to cull the weak and the lonely, and no one in Red Guard is weak or lonely. Even if you manage to catch someone away from the zerg, you have about 5 – 10 seconds to kill them before 2 more zerglings arrives.

In sPvP, the Dagger/Pistol is god mode for hot-joins and low level tournaments. Because almost everything’s a 1v1 duel. Even if 5 players hunt you, you can keep them busy as long as you play defensively.

However your utility in high level tournaments is dramatically reduced. You can duel a bunker Elementalist or Guardian for eons, but you will never be able to take the point from her (all damage is nerfed in sPvP, and every point will have a bunker on it). If you decide to ignore the bunkers, you must face the enemy 4-man group of AOE burst builds (maybe one bunker among them) – designed to wipe other 4-man groups let alone one Thief.

Dagger/Pistol only shines 100% of the time in WvW scouting, and WvW duels (although you’ll have some trouble against Phantasm Mesmers in the duels because Phantasmal duelists are almost another player unto themselves). I’ve had multiple people show me variants of Dagger/Pistol and I’ve experimented with many different modifications myself, but the only other effective implementation I’ve seen is essentially a camping perma-stealth Steal-Backstab Thief (by Noell of Jade Quarry).

Any questions?

You are just flat out wrong about D/P in sPvP tournaments. There are no high level Thieves running 0/10/30/30/0 in tournaments; the spec is exactly the same as D/D, 25/30/0/0/15 so there is no reduction in utility or damage. I’ll point you to two of the best Thieves in high level tournament play for reference, Jumper: http://www.twitch.tv/loljumper/videos?kind=past_broadcasts
Caed: http://www.twitch.tv/narcarsis/videos?kind=past_broadcasts. Watch any past broadcasts or live streams for reference.

As for the D/P (0/10/30/30/0) set up, I think your descriptions are likely accurate.

The misinformation that needs to be dispelled in this thread is that D/P is not a “burst” weapon set. You are not required to run 0/10/30/30/0 with D/P, and the traditional 25/30/0/0/15 set up is just as viable with D/P if not better than D/D.

Hotcake.2137:

Iohanna.4863:

Hi, I am the author of Unseen and Deathess + Slayer Thief – and I am also a good friend of Soko D Medo. I’d like to clarify the strengths and weaknesses of Dagger/Pistol (0/10/30/30/0).

In the context of WvW, this allows you to constantly apply pressure to a disorganized zerg. As long as you are present, their Staff Eles, Rangers, Grenadiers and so on are all threatened. It doesn’t matter if you’re only able to engage 1 person at a time. You are like a living condition debuff on the entire zerg, constantly removing/disabling players one at a time. Removing you requires the attention of several players, which leaves the enemy zerg vulnerable to an allied push.

Unfortunately the most you can do to organized zergs like Red Guard is tail them (powerful in its own right, but that’s a topic for another time). When every one of your available targets is located inside a kill-zone, there is nothing your regeneration, blinds, and evasion can do to kill even one of them. Your role is to cull the weak and the lonely, and no one in Red Guard is weak or lonely. Even if you manage to catch someone away from the zerg, you have about 5 – 10 seconds to kill them before 2 more zerglings arrives.

In sPvP, the Dagger/Pistol is god mode for hot-joins and low level tournaments. Because almost everything’s a 1v1 duel. Even if 5 players hunt you, you can keep them busy as long as you play defensively.

However your utility in high level tournaments is dramatically reduced. You can duel a bunker Elementalist or Guardian for eons, but you will never be able to take the point from her (all damage is nerfed in sPvP, and every point will have a bunker on it). If you decide to ignore the bunkers, you must face the enemy 4-man group of AOE burst builds (maybe one bunker among them) – designed to wipe other 4-man groups let alone one Thief.

Dagger/Pistol only shines 100% of the time in WvW scouting, and WvW duels (although you’ll have some trouble against Phantasm Mesmers in the duels because Phantasmal duelists are almost another player unto themselves). I’ve had multiple people show me variants of Dagger/Pistol and I’ve experimented with many different modifications myself, but the only other effective implementation I’ve seen is essentially a camping perma-stealth Steal-Backstab Thief (by Noell of Jade Quarry).

Any questions?

You are just flat out wrong about D/P in sPvP tournaments. There are no high level Thieves running 0/10/30/30/0 in tournaments; the spec is exactly the same as D/D, 25/30/0/0/15 so there is no reduction in utility or damage. I’ll point you to two of the best Thieves in high level tournament play for reference, Jumper: http://www.twitch.tv/loljumper/videos?kind=past_broadcasts
Caed: http://www.twitch.tv/narcarsis/videos?kind=past_broadcasts. Watch any past broadcasts or live streams for reference.

As for the D/P (0/10/30/30/0) set up, I think your descriptions are likely accurate.

The misinformation that needs to be dispelled in this thread is that D/P is not a “burst” weapon set. You are not required to run 0/10/30/30/0 with D/P, and the traditional 25/30/0/0/15 set up is just as viable with D/P if not better than D/D.

Please reread the post title. This is about WvW.

25/30/0/0/15 D/P is asking for death in WvW. And in my opinion, it is a subpar build for WvW.

S/D kitten warriors. Add in blind on stealth and I have killed warriors flawlessly.

I run para sigil on sword.

Clusterbombs and Heartseekers

Hotcake.2137:

You are just flat out wrong about D/P in sPvP tournaments. There are no high level Thieves running 0/10/30/30/0 in tournaments; the spec is exactly the same as D/D, 25/30/0/0/15 so there is no reduction in utility or damage. I’ll point you to two of the best Thieves in high level tournament play for reference, Jumper: http://www.twitch.tv/loljumper/videos?kind=past_broadcasts
Caed: http://www.twitch.tv/narcarsis/videos?kind=past_broadcasts. Watch any past broadcasts or live streams for reference.

You misunderstand, I completely agree with what you’re saying. My post emphasizes the severe disadvantages a 0/10/30/30/0 build would have in high level tournaments.

I believe 25/30/0/0/15 hasted Pistol Whippers and Backstabbers are most in-demand for high level tournaments – and a Thief’s skill correlates heavily with her ability to use Infiltrator’s Arrow

Hotcake.2137:

LyzeUH.1398:

Brassnautilus.2941:

Hotcake.2137:

You’re only further proving how ignorant you are on the subject, you’re obviously clueless. Burst D/P builds are almost identical to burst D/D builds, with only a couple modifications to suit WvW i.e. less power from the DA trait line, all of which is made up from Sigil of Bloodlust stacks. In sPvP, the build is EXACTLY the same, but you wouldn’t know that. I’m only pointing this out because people like you provide wrong information to people trying to learn.

too bad you are the only one on this thread that thinks that way. I’ll just ignore you like the others.

Eh? Hotcake isn’t wrong about this for sPvP…the usual 25/30/0/0/15 D/D build can also be played with D/P instead and is how I run it myself.

Its also how every single top Thief in sPvP specs, but there’s no point arguing with fools. The same build is also perfectly viable in WvW, but some people prefer 15 in Shadow Arts for perma stealth rather than a full 25 in DA since its really easy to make up that loss of power in WvW.

Dont fall into the same trap as the other poster you talked about…

Sure D/P is run 25/30/0/015…many do run this (and I’ve started seeing alot more D/P users, which is nice, since I’m grow tired of people telling me I’m hacking in /map and tells). I’ve been D/P since game has come out, I have run multiple builds….Each has its plus. I personally enjoy 0/30/30/10/0, others will want 15 in trickery as they feel they need the extra regen from a steal/and 3 larger pool. I use my spec and gear to make a very balanced build (17k hps, 3k armor, 3k attack, 43% critical dmg), I almost always hit back harder than you hit me.

I run mainly sPVP and hotjoin…I more of a soloist vs party player

Iohanna.4863:

You misunderstand, I completely agree with what you’re saying. My post emphasizes the severe disadvantages a 0/10/30/30/0 build would have in high level tournaments.

I believe 25/30/0/0/15 hasted Pistol Whippers and Backstabbers are most in-demand for high level tournaments – and a Thief’s skill correlates heavily with her ability to use Infiltrator’s Arrow

My mistake, we are definitely in agreement here.

Sifu.6527:

Please reread the post title. This is about WvW.

25/30/0/0/15 D/P is asking for death in WvW. And in my opinion, it is a subpar build for WvW.

I agree, 25/30/0/0/15 is not ideal for WvW. My earlier post outlines my variation of this build for WvW, which is 10/30/15/0/15, taking Infusion of Shadow and making up for the loss in power with stacks from Sigil of Bloodlust. You still hit as hard as full glass but the 15 in SA allows for near perma-stealth, really important for escaping in larger battles and 1vX situations.

grometsc.2375:

Dont fall into the same trap as the other poster you talked about…

Sure D/P is run 25/30/0/015…many do run this (and I’ve started seeing alot more D/P users, which is nice, since I’m grow tired of people telling me I’m hacking in /map and tells). I’ve been D/P since game has come out, I have run multiple builds….Each has its plus. I personally enjoy 0/30/30/10/0, others will want 15 in trickery as they feel they need the extra regen from a steal/and 3 larger pool. I use my spec and gear to make a very balanced build (17k hps, 3k armor, 3k attack, 43% critical dmg), I almost always hit back harder than you hit me.

I run mainly sPVP and hotjoin…I more of a soloist vs party player

I think we are on the same page here, I agree there are multiple viable specs for D/P in WvW based on how you want to play. Unfortunately I think the Thief class is pretty pigeon-holed in sPvP to burst only specs so personally I can’t see any other spec besides 25/30/0/0/15 being viable but to each his own.

For WvWvW I use 0/30/30/10/0. I prefer it over the other builds that are more about Ini Regen. I rarely have an issue with Regen.

As for how to beat my spec. Pretty much just catch by surprise. I am not a great player but I rarely lose to D/D thieves.

D/P is a good counter to D/D. S/D does give me problems though.

Iohanna.4863:

Hi, I am the author of Unseen and Deathess + Slayer Thief – and I am also a good friend of Soko D Medo. I’d like to clarify the strengths and weaknesses of Dagger/Pistol (0/10/30/30/0).

In the context of WvW, this allows you to constantly apply pressure to a disorganized zerg. As long as you are present, their Staff Eles, Rangers, Grenadiers and so on are all threatened. It doesn’t matter if you’re only able to engage 1 person at a time. You are like a living condition debuff on the entire zerg, constantly removing/disabling players one at a time. Removing you requires the attention of several players, which leaves the enemy zerg vulnerable to an allied push.

Unfortunately the most you can do to organized zergs like Red Guard is tail them (powerful in its own right, but that’s a topic for another time). When every one of your available targets is located inside a kill-zone, there is nothing your regeneration, blinds, and evasion can do to kill even one of them. Your role is to cull the weak and the lonely, and no one in Red Guard is weak or lonely. Even if you manage to catch someone away from the zerg, you have about 5 – 10 seconds to kill them before 2 more zerglings arrives.

In sPvP, the Dagger/Pistol is god mode for hot-joins and low level tournaments. Because almost everything’s a 1v1 duel. Even if 5 players hunt you, you can keep them busy as long as you play defensively.

However your utility in high level tournaments is dramatically reduced. You can duel a bunker Elementalist or Guardian for eons, but you will never be able to take the point from her (all damage is nerfed in sPvP, and every point will have a bunker on it). If you decide to ignore the bunkers, you must face the enemy 4-man group of AOE burst builds (maybe one bunker among them) – designed to wipe other 4-man groups let alone one Thief.

Dagger/Pistol only shines 100% of the time in WvW scouting, and WvW duels (although you’ll have some trouble against Phantasm Mesmers in the duels because Phantasmal duelists are almost another player unto themselves). I’ve had multiple people show me variants of Dagger/Pistol and I’ve experimented with many different modifications myself, but the only other effective implementation I’ve seen is essentially a camping perma-stealth Steal-Backstab Thief (by Noell of Jade Quarry).

Any questions?

Pretty much sum up the entire thread. D/D can’t have their cake and eat it too. Know when to engage and when not too.

I’m 50/50 in a wvw duel vs you (die once to you and I killed you once) so I don’t feel too bad.

What I usually do is, I run a D/P build when ever i encounter a D/P whatever I do I DO NOT MAKE THEM STEALTH no matter what do no let them get into their combo. What I do is if I see the black powder go down I instantly head shot them to daze. I dont use combos because I wont be able to bs him since he is stealth to so I just auto attack. Just keep on dazing him if you run out of inti then if you have a pull ability (scorpion wire) pull them out before they hs. If you keep dazing them and auto attacking. They will soon get bored and leave. I have had a 10 minute battle with a D/P and he just got bored and left. lol

Fiddler.5174:

For WvWvW I use 0/30/30/10/0. I prefer it over the other builds that are more about Ini Regen. I rarely have an issue with Regen.

As for how to beat my spec. Pretty much just catch by surprise. I am not a great player but I rarely lose to D/D thieves.

D/P is a good counter to D/D. S/D does give me problems though.

Are you serious? There’s a lack of init regen with 0/30/30/10/0, I simply don’t see how you can get escape from any zergs at all. Roll for initiative seems to be the only saving grace but it’s unstable imo.

LoneWolfie.1852:

Fiddler.5174:

For WvWvW I use 0/30/30/10/0. I prefer it over the other builds that are more about Ini Regen. I rarely have an issue with Regen.

As for how to beat my spec. Pretty much just catch by surprise. I am not a great player but I rarely lose to D/D thieves.

D/P is a good counter to D/D. S/D does give me problems though.

Are you serious? There’s a lack of init regen with 0/30/30/10/0, I simply don’t see how you can get escape from any zergs at all. Roll for initiative seems to be the only saving grace but it’s unstable imo.

You are correct in that i cannot stay behind the lines forever.

I do not use Roll for Initiative. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Opportunist_ is really all I have besides http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infusion_of_Shadow.

To be fair i can not run around in stealth for ever like the other build but my damage is better and I can get into a Zerg kill 1-2 and get out no problem. I rarely lose a 1v1 or a 1v2. Now I am not very good. Not compared to some of the thieves out there. But I kill D/D thieves with out an issue most of the time. No class really gives me a huge problem unless the player is above average in skill.

The amount of people that will stand there in my smoke screen is insane. GS wars and D/D thieves act like they do not understand the concept of Blindness.

Fiddler.5174:

LoneWolfie.1852:

Fiddler.5174:

For WvWvW I use 0/30/30/10/0. I prefer it over the other builds that are more about Ini Regen. I rarely have an issue with Regen.

As for how to beat my spec. Pretty much just catch by surprise. I am not a great player but I rarely lose to D/D thieves.

D/P is a good counter to D/D. S/D does give me problems though.

Are you serious? There’s a lack of init regen with 0/30/30/10/0, I simply don’t see how you can get escape from any zergs at all. Roll for initiative seems to be the only saving grace but it’s unstable imo.

You are correct in that i cannot stay behind the lines forever.

I do not use Roll for Initiative. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Opportunist_ is really all I have besides http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infusion_of_Shadow.

To be fair i can not run around in stealth for ever like the other build but my damage is better and I can get into a Zerg kill 1-2 and get out no problem. I rarely lose a 1v1 or a 1v2. Now I am not very good. Not compared to some of the thieves out there. But I kill D/D thieves with out an issue most of the time. No class really gives me a huge problem unless the player is above average in skill.

The amount of people that will stand there in my smoke screen is insane. GS wars and D/D thieves act like they do not understand the concept of Blindness.

I have seen players who purposely interrupt the heartseeker after one casts black powder, and that’s a full 9 initiative lost or 3/4 of your initiatives gone. Not too sure about you, but a lot of the opponents I see in Blackgate/SOR are strong enough to bring thieves down quickly.

LoneWolfie.1852:

Fiddler.5174:

LoneWolfie.1852:

Fiddler.5174:

For WvWvW I use 0/30/30/10/0. I prefer it over the other builds that are more about Ini Regen. I rarely have an issue with Regen.

As for how to beat my spec. Pretty much just catch by surprise. I am not a great player but I rarely lose to D/D thieves.

D/P is a good counter to D/D. S/D does give me problems though.

Are you serious? There’s a lack of init regen with 0/30/30/10/0, I simply don’t see how you can get escape from any zergs at all. Roll for initiative seems to be the only saving grace but it’s unstable imo.

You are correct in that i cannot stay behind the lines forever.

I do not use Roll for Initiative. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Opportunist_ is really all I have besides http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infusion_of_Shadow.

To be fair i can not run around in stealth for ever like the other build but my damage is better and I can get into a Zerg kill 1-2 and get out no problem. I rarely lose a 1v1 or a 1v2. Now I am not very good. Not compared to some of the thieves out there. But I kill D/D thieves with out an issue most of the time. No class really gives me a huge problem unless the player is above average in skill.

The amount of people that will stand there in my smoke screen is insane. GS wars and D/D thieves act like they do not understand the concept of Blindness.

I have seen players who purposely interrupt the heartseeker after one casts black powder, and that’s a full 9 initiative lost or 3/4 of your initiatives gone. Not too sure about you, but a lot of the opponents I see in Blackgate/SOR are strong enough to bring thieves down quickly.

I get my kitten handed to me sometimes. A good player (mainly mesmer or D/D ele) can really mess me up. Most just are not that good. Really with this build I am doing decent damage and abusing people who do not know about blind, or are not smart enough to move.
I had a Mesmer beat me twice this morning.

I do not want to say I am great or this build is the best but I do believe a D/D thief is at a disadvantage when fighting a D/P thief of same skill level. Just a good counter to that style of play.

As far as the Ini regen goes. I do not triple cross my black powder and like I said I go for 1-2 people ikittenerg or try to get a one on one going. After words I retreat. I am not good enough to do what some of these guys do with D/P. But I am learning.

If i was trying to stay behind the lines and harress a whole zerg i would be dead in 3 seconds. Neither my build or my play is good enough for that.

So far I like it better than D/D. One of these days I will try to master S/D in WvWvW.

I agree with everything Iohanna said but i’d like to point couple things out.

in duels (especially in WVW) d/p is top of food chain, but that does not mean it’s the only one up there if considered all classes. I’ve met mesmers, guardians, wars and ranger (A ranger, pains me to say this) that I can’t kill, and alot of those d/d eles are freaking impossible too. So d/p is king of thief builds if 1v1 was the goal, but hardly OP.

secondly, the lack of usefulness for d/p in situations (including but not limited to zerging in WVW and high level tourney matches) is its lack of AoE dmg. BP shots are nice defensive ae but it’s easily overwritten.
That said, a good d/p thief always focus on what they do best – downing people. and the sheer amount of kills can sometimes turn the tide. I wouldn’t consider myself useless in zergs, I also carry supply and build siege yo.

If i was trying to stay behind the lines and harress a whole zerg i would be dead in 3 seconds. Neither my build or my play is good enough for that.

It’s very easy for dagger off hand. My thief who is in rare armours is more than cabable of doing that. I’m not sure if you can do it without it because people will see your smoke fields and start spamming skills.