Guild Wars 2

Not that I am one of the players constantly claiming Thief OPness and such, I have been one of those players claiming that thief is one of the easier classes to master. Now I played a Thief in some Practice matches… and it is not that easy, as I thought. I played a S/D build from metabattle and have to say, that I’d expected it going much smother. Funny was, that most other Thieves weren’t that problematic. But even fighting Mesmer… what I expected to be a cake walk, was not that simple. Granted most of them were lock down for some reason…

On the other hand, guardians I met weren’t that problematic either… but well, those were just practice matches. Anyway, there is actually more to Thief play than I had anticipated

Please don’t apologize.
The problem isn’t about how difficult it is to play a thief.

The problem is a Master thief vs a Master [insert any class here] is going to be advantage to the thief, with the exception of a Master Guardian.

Of all the classes, a Master level Thief holds the advantage.
Only a Master level Guardian can proudly say that they have the edge over a Master level thief.

Thieves are OP to every other class except Guardian.

All classes under the control of superb Master level players, Thief comes out on top in every encounter except vs Guardians.

Of the 3 or 4 thieves I defeated in the video below, do you know that I would have died to thieves 30 or 40 times in the same period.

I am not a Master level Necro, but those thieves that killed me were not Master level thieves either. Thieves just hold too many cards against every class except Guardians.

Video:

EremiteAngel.9765:

Please don’t apologize.

I only agree with this. When the player know what the thief is capable of they usually are capable of shutting them down. Guardian or not.

I somewhat agree with Angel, here. The problem really has never been that thief is too easy. People who say that are really misguided, and I’m not sure where that generalization comes from. The problem with thief is its so squishy that it’s very easy to be bad with, but it has the tools to overcome its weaknesses and can be excessively “safe” when they’re able to freely move without being bound to a point (this is how conquest reigns them in, but won’t extend to multiple game modes). The few VERY good thieves prove that their learning curve is too high, from terrible if you’re bad to arguably OP (for their role, not god mode) once mastering all of the tricks to playing a thief safe and effective at once.

As such, thieves like to say “try it, you’ll see!” but that literally proves nothing, as they themselves are misleading when you should see results. Not many people will reroll a thief and wreck like they could Turret engineer, and I actually think thieves know that, which is why they suggest people “Try it” knowing that it can change peoples’ minds about how “easy” it is to play the class, when that was never the problem in the first place.

That said, and as I’ve said before, Thief in general isn’t the issue. It needs more options and diversity and they need to rework the learning curve on thief so it’s a bit more useful in low-mid tier play and slightly less useful upon mastering the class.

Disclaimer: Thieves are not at the top of my “OP” list, but I do think some rebalancing could happen. There are certainly bigger fish to fry. My biggest concern with thief is not even live, but 60606, which is where I fear the power of PS thief and the cheesiness of SA thief will merge into something that will drive me insane.

Can we please just leave thief as it is – I’m so tired of the constant “NERF NERF NERF” threads.
And I can’t even argue about it as I haven’t mastered any other classes, so I can’t say whether or not the “learning curve for thief is exceptionally unfair towards new players”
My friend became a good enough teef within 2 months.

EremiteAngel.9765:

Please don’t apologize.
The problem isn’t about how difficult it is to play a thief.

The problem is a Master thief vs a Master [insert any class here] is going to be advantage to the thief, with the exception of a Master Guardian.

Of all the classes, a Master level Thief holds the advantage.
Only a Master level Guardian can proudly say that they have the edge over a Master level thief.

Thieves are OP to every other class except Guardian.

All classes under the control of superb Master level players, Thief comes out on top in every encounter except vs Guardians.

Of the 3 or 4 thieves I defeated in the video below, do you know that I would have died to thieves 30 or 40 times in the same period.

I am not a Master level Necro, but those thieves that killed me were not Master level thieves either. Thieves just hold too many cards against every class except Guardians.

Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fh2_WxuNUKs

You’re incorrect, but let’s put that aside. No even marginally competitive MMO balances for 1v1 combat. It’s absurd and terribly limiting to game design.

I mean, look at your video. Do you really want to play a game where competitive PvP is just you winning every fight by using all of your abilities on cooldown and backpeddling back and forth?

Most thief nerf have been based on solo encounters,weaponless duels,hardcounter duels,trolling duels,unfair duels,faceroll duels,cheese duels,duel request for the sake of balance. Learning curve on thief is appropriate if all classes were like that it would be easier to balance sigil/rune wise that especially should happen before class balance. It’s all about freedom and choices the saddest thing in GW2 is that thief is the only one with initiative.

Only thing that needs a nerf for thief is the shadow refuge… No other class have a “reset a fight” skill and thats what make the class OP. If you get outplayed you should be able to hide and come 15 sec later and 2-shot someone (implying zerk vs zerk).

EremiteAngel.9765:

The problem is a Master thief vs a Master [insert any class here] is going to be advantage to the thief, with the exception of a Master Guardian.

Of all the classes, a Master level Thief holds the advantage.
Only a Master level Guardian can proudly say that they have the edge over a Master level thief.

Thieves are OP to every other class except Guardian.

Even then that is very argumentive. Whose to say a person is a Master Guardian or a Master thief? Because they won a WTS tournament or because both players Duel 1v1 24/7?

I agree in the fact that a Guardian would have an easier time against a thief compared to, say, mesmer/ranger/necro. I don’t know if it’s a balance issue; i’m no dev pvp analyst, but to say a Guardian > Thief or vice versa is a complete misconception. The classes are incredibly balanced in 1v1 and their roles in Conquest are Completely different.

EremiteAngel.9765:

…
The problem is a Master thief vs a Master [insert any class here] is going to be advantage to the thief, with the exception of a Master Guardian.

…

Congrats! You’ve found a class that counters the thief, in this rock-paper-scissors game. Or do you want both rock and paper to beat scissors?

Ideally something like this should be balanced, or at least one variation of balance:
Heavy class kills Medium class,
Medium class kills Light class,
Light class kills heavy class.

Then since there’s (going to be) 3 profs per armor class, you can do something like:
Guardian hard counters thief – soft counters other mediums,
Thief hard counters mesmer – soft counters other lights,
Mesmer hard counters guardian – soft counters other heavies.

Among each armor class you can then do something like (medium for instance):
Thief soft counters ranger,
Ranger soft counters Engineer,
Engineer soft counters thief.

That’s the rock-paper-scissor way of balancing.

This is just a concept, and not actually implemented in the game. Just a kittening idea, don’t jump at me saying that it’s not true – I know that.

Zero Day.2594:

EremiteAngel.9765:

…
The problem is a Master thief vs a Master [insert any class here] is going to be advantage to the thief, with the exception of a Master Guardian.

…

Congrats! You’ve found a class that counters the thief, in this rock-paper-scissors game. Or do you want both rock and paper to beat scissors?

Ideally something like this should be balanced, or at least one variation of balance:
Heavy class kills Medium class,
Medium class kills Light class,
Light class kills heavy class.

Then since there’s (going to be) 3 profs per armor class, you can do something like:
Guardian hard counters thief – soft counters other mediums,
Thief hard counters mesmer – soft counters other lights,
Mesmer hard counters guardian – soft counters other heavies.

Among each armor class you can then do something like (medium for instance):
Thief soft counters ranger,
Ranger soft counters Engineer,
Engineer soft counters thief.

That’s the rock-paper-scissor way of balancing.

This is just a concept, and not actually implemented in the game. Just a kittening idea, don’t jump at me saying that it’s not true – I know that.

People always forget condition builds because they aren’t meta now. But we have every indication they will be equally meta in some instances. Master thief has never done well against condi anything. And as the builds become more optimal people will complain about how OP thief is less and less.

That was just a concept sketch if you will… Within it you could also add in power builds and condi builds in a similar fashion.

As for people complaining less and less – that won’t happen.

OP, try dp….o.o

TyPin.9860:

Not that I am one of the players constantly claiming Thief OPness and such, I have been one of those players claiming that thief is one of the easier classes to master. Now I played a Thief in some Practice matches… and it is not that easy, as I thought.

Thank you for being open and giving it a try! :-D

Keep practicing though…
In my opinion S/D is one of the easier ones… well …

Zero Day.2594:

That was just a concept sketch if you will… Within it you could also add in power builds and condi builds in a similar fashion.

As for people complaining less and less – that won’t happen.

Make no mistake I love the concept. I am guessing that condi would be the inverse of power for your things. Ie a condi thief could give a condi guardian. Just as a condi mesmer can easily kill a condi thief.

EremiteAngel.9765:

I am not a Master level Necro, but those thieves that killed me were not Master level thieves either. Thieves just hold too many cards against every class except Guardians.

Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fh2_WxuNUKs

Had to leave earlier, so I just flipped through your video and couldn’t really write to it,but now I can:

(One thing in general: you seem to randomly use your skills, works against non pros but not against those who know what they’re doing)

Thief against who you lost(I guess): The fields are good, he failed to interrupt you for whatever reason, you hadn’t had him in target when he popped his SR and you wasted your fear before he used his SR. And after that you think he’s gone and you had 2 npcs against you “but it’s just npcs!!” yeah, but one of them blinds (next outgoing attack misses) and the other immobilizes. Winning a fight against multiple npcs and a player is really hard.

The other 2 thief fights: You won them anyway but failed to time your fear again.

I like your movement but like I said in the beginning: You seem to randomly press buttons. If I miss either my one interrupt (the stuff I steal from you (D/D thief)) or get feared out of my SR, I’m toast against a necro.

EremiteAngel.9765:

Please don’t apologize.
The problem isn’t about how difficult it is to play a thief.

The problem is a Master thief vs a Master [insert any class here] is going to be advantage to the thief, with the exception of a Master Guardian.

Of all the classes, a Master level Thief holds the advantage.
Only a Master level Guardian can proudly say that they have the edge over a Master level thief.

Thieves are OP to every other class except Guardian.

All classes under the control of superb Master level players, Thief comes out on top in every encounter except vs Guardians.

Of the 3 or 4 thieves I defeated in the video below, do you know that I would have died to thieves 30 or 40 times in the same period.

I am not a Master level Necro, but those thieves that killed me were not Master level thieves either. Thieves just hold too many cards against every class except Guardians.

Thats actually incorrect.

Coming from a mesmer PoV,I have actually watched most thieves fail against survival rangers, cele’s and cele engies. I have watched in a vacuum thieves do wonderful and horrible things to mesmer’s, warriors and especially necro’s. And I have seen them fail just as hard vs warriors, ele’s,ranger’s, mesmer’s, and engies.

Haven’t seen to many good necro’s in T2 as of late. Maybe they are all running around in EU :I or a zerg

Solori.6025:

EremiteAngel.9765:

Please don’t apologize.
The problem isn’t about how difficult it is to play a thief.

The problem is a Master thief vs a Master [insert any class here] is going to be advantage to the thief, with the exception of a Master Guardian.

Of all the classes, a Master level Thief holds the advantage.
Only a Master level Guardian can proudly say that they have the edge over a Master level thief.

Thieves are OP to every other class except Guardian.

All classes under the control of superb Master level players, Thief comes out on top in every encounter except vs Guardians.

Of the 3 or 4 thieves I defeated in the video below, do you know that I would have died to thieves 30 or 40 times in the same period.

I am not a Master level Necro, but those thieves that killed me were not Master level thieves either. Thieves just hold too many cards against every class except Guardians.

Thats actually incorrect.

Coming from a mesmer PoV,I have actually watched most thieves fail against survival rangers, cele’s and cele engies. I have watched in a vacuum thieves do wonderful and horrible things to mesmer’s, warriors and especially necro’s. And I have seen them fail just as hard vs warriors, ele’s,ranger’s, mesmer’s, and engies.

Haven’t seen to many good necro’s in T2 as of late. Maybe they are all running around in EU :I or a zerg

No, no. We must base the game on vacuums. You would think when the concept of conditions would enter one’s mind when we discuss optimal conditions, but no.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Solori.6025:

EremiteAngel.9765:

Please don’t apologize.
The problem isn’t about how difficult it is to play a thief.

The problem is a Master thief vs a Master [insert any class here] is going to be advantage to the thief, with the exception of a Master Guardian.

Of all the classes, a Master level Thief holds the advantage.
Only a Master level Guardian can proudly say that they have the edge over a Master level thief.

Thieves are OP to every other class except Guardian.

All classes under the control of superb Master level players, Thief comes out on top in every encounter except vs Guardians.

Of the 3 or 4 thieves I defeated in the video below, do you know that I would have died to thieves 30 or 40 times in the same period.

I am not a Master level Necro, but those thieves that killed me were not Master level thieves either. Thieves just hold too many cards against every class except Guardians.

Thats actually incorrect.

Coming from a mesmer PoV,I have actually watched most thieves fail against survival rangers, cele’s and cele engies. I have watched in a vacuum thieves do wonderful and horrible things to mesmer’s, warriors and especially necro’s. And I have seen them fail just as hard vs warriors, ele’s,ranger’s, mesmer’s, and engies.

Haven’t seen to many good necro’s in T2 as of late. Maybe they are all running around in EU :I or a zerg

No, no. We must base the game on vacuums. You would think when the concept of conditions would enter one’s mind when we discuss optimal conditions, but no.

But conditions are never consistent and do not help us accurately describe how totally OP the thief is.
SO we discuss vacuums instead, cause it’s easier.
I know this , our lord and crusader dark taught me.

Solori.6025:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Solori.6025:

EremiteAngel.9765:

Please don’t apologize.
The problem isn’t about how difficult it is to play a thief.

The problem is a Master thief vs a Master [insert any class here] is going to be advantage to the thief, with the exception of a Master Guardian.

Of all the classes, a Master level Thief holds the advantage.
Only a Master level Guardian can proudly say that they have the edge over a Master level thief.

Thieves are OP to every other class except Guardian.

All classes under the control of superb Master level players, Thief comes out on top in every encounter except vs Guardians.

Of the 3 or 4 thieves I defeated in the video below, do you know that I would have died to thieves 30 or 40 times in the same period.

I am not a Master level Necro, but those thieves that killed me were not Master level thieves either. Thieves just hold too many cards against every class except Guardians.

Thats actually incorrect.

Coming from a mesmer PoV,I have actually watched most thieves fail against survival rangers, cele’s and cele engies. I have watched in a vacuum thieves do wonderful and horrible things to mesmer’s, warriors and especially necro’s. And I have seen them fail just as hard vs warriors, ele’s,ranger’s, mesmer’s, and engies.

Haven’t seen to many good necro’s in T2 as of late. Maybe they are all running around in EU :I or a zerg

No, no. We must base the game on vacuums. You would think when the concept of conditions would enter one’s mind when we discuss optimal conditions, but no.

But conditions are never consistent and do not help us accurately describe how totally OP the thief is.
SO we discuss vacuums instead, cause it’s easier.
I know this , our lord and crusader dark taught me.

In a vacuum against critters, typically squirrels… That’s the only way to balance a thief.

Zero Day.2594:

Solori.6025:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Solori.6025:

EremiteAngel.9765:

Please don’t apologize.
The problem isn’t about how difficult it is to play a thief.

The problem is a Master thief vs a Master [insert any class here] is going to be advantage to the thief, with the exception of a Master Guardian.

Of all the classes, a Master level Thief holds the advantage.
Only a Master level Guardian can proudly say that they have the edge over a Master level thief.

Thieves are OP to every other class except Guardian.

All classes under the control of superb Master level players, Thief comes out on top in every encounter except vs Guardians.

Of the 3 or 4 thieves I defeated in the video below, do you know that I would have died to thieves 30 or 40 times in the same period.

I am not a Master level Necro, but those thieves that killed me were not Master level thieves either. Thieves just hold too many cards against every class except Guardians.

Thats actually incorrect.

Coming from a mesmer PoV,I have actually watched most thieves fail against survival rangers, cele’s and cele engies. I have watched in a vacuum thieves do wonderful and horrible things to mesmer’s, warriors and especially necro’s. And I have seen them fail just as hard vs warriors, ele’s,ranger’s, mesmer’s, and engies.

Haven’t seen to many good necro’s in T2 as of late. Maybe they are all running around in EU :I or a zerg

No, no. We must base the game on vacuums. You would think when the concept of conditions would enter one’s mind when we discuss optimal conditions, but no.

But conditions are never consistent and do not help us accurately describe how totally OP the thief is.
SO we discuss vacuums instead, cause it’s easier.
I know this , our lord and crusader dark taught me.

In a vacuum against critters, typically squirrels… That’s the only way to balance a thief.

Spherical chickens in a frictionless vacuum.

Jana.6831:

EremiteAngel.9765:

I am not a Master level Necro, but those thieves that killed me were not Master level thieves either. Thieves just hold too many cards against every class except Guardians.

Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fh2_WxuNUKs

Had to leave earlier, so I just flipped through your video and couldn’t really write to it,but now I can:

(One thing in general: you seem to randomly use your skills, works against non pros but not against those who know what they’re doing)

Thief against who you lost(I guess): The fields are good, he failed to interrupt you for whatever reason, you hadn’t had him in target when he popped his SR and you wasted your fear before he used his SR. And after that you think he’s gone and you had 2 npcs against you “but it’s just npcs!!” yeah, but one of them blinds (next outgoing attack misses) and the other immobilizes. Winning a fight against multiple npcs and a player is really hard.

The other 2 thief fights: You won them anyway but failed to time your fear again.

I like your movement but like I said in the beginning: You seem to randomly press buttons. If I miss either my one interrupt (the stuff I steal from you (D/D thief)) or get feared out of my SR, I’m toast against a necro.

thanks for the feedback! actually u r not the first to say that i am spamming my skills once its available.

I don’t disagree with that and i am trying to improve!

that said, i should also say that i play a high dmg build and spamming all my staff marks in a chain generates a large amount of burst that can kill the wary.

what i need to learn is the defensive skill animations on other players and time my spam appropriately so i don’t waste them on blocks or invul etc

but yes thanks for the insight! i will also save my staff 5 fear for shadow refuge in future and see if i get to kill the thief =D

i think u r the nicest thief on this forum

nurf shadow refuge! Thief balanced.

with the amount of pulls/pushes and aoe skills to be seen in the future, shadow refuge might leave the utility bar of many thieves in favor of another stunbreak….

EremiteAngel.9765:

snip

I think you got my point Thieves need to time all or most (depending on the build) skills, otherwise they’re dead.

When I created my thief I was “This is it, I will never have another character” but created them nonetheless to learn some of their mechanics (I think I will never go around to learn all of them). So in order to play thief I need to know my own and the other classes’ mechanics, I guess that’s different for most other classes – and maybe that’s what makes thief so difficult and in the end dangerous.

But I have to say that all guys who write on this forum are really nice =)