Guild Wars 2

…revealed apply to us even if we leave stealth without doing any damage.

http://youtu.be/wYbTFzrtOUk

That wasn’t as much of a nerf as this was. The new thief rotation just feels so… “sticky” now. I guess you could chalk it up to D/D Thief having a higher skill ceiling but… It still has terrible play feel.

Scootabuser.4915:

…revealed apply to us even if we leave stealth without doing any damage.

That wasn’t as much of a nerf as this was.

/signed

Agreed.

I’d rather they think a change through to effect the stuff thats actually a problem myself… instead I think I’ll have a muffin.

No way, I was all comfy with how it was. I’d have to learn a new way of doing things either way. Change baaad.

All you stealth abusers brought this on yourselves. What the 1,000 topics on this problem were all just community QQ in your minds lol ….. funny stuff here today.

ANET DEVS this was a long long time coming thank you very much!

For every bad thief that leaves today 10 players will return for this patch.

Scootabuser.4915:

…revealed apply to us even if we leave stealth without doing any damage.

That wasn’t as much of a nerf as this was.

I disagree. Since we’re just stating opinions, I have nothing else to add.

Scootabuser.4915:

…revealed apply to us even if we leave stealth without doing any damage.

That wasn’t as much of a nerf as this was.

I concur.
No idea what they were thinking.

Scootabuser.4915:

…revealed apply to us even if we leave stealth without doing any damage.

That wasn’t as much of a nerf as this was.

If this were a petition, I would /sign it.

Scootabuser.4915:

…revealed apply to us even if we leave stealth without doing any damage.

That wasn’t as much of a nerf as this was.

Disagree completely.

That change would have destroyed a thief’s ability to turtle and play defensively, which with this change remains entirely, 100% intact. Taking that defensive ability away from the class just to preserve a little bit of offensive capability would have been a huge mistake.

Frankly, I’m ashamed that so many thieves on the forums are so short-sighted to think the 4s revealed is a worse nerf.

It also more directly addressed the problem of chain stealthing, which enables you to be effectively invisible if you choose to do so.

For instance, if you hide in SM after it gets capped, you can easily tie up 10 people trying to hunt you down because you chain stealth all over the place. You’re not going to attempt to sneak attack anything unless it’s a sure kill, so you can just reuse CnD as the stealth is coming off, or heartseeker through your powder.

The 4 second reveal does absolutely nothing to this kind of play unless the thief in question accidentally hits something. I’ve always seen this as the real problem in regards to stealth (aside from WvW culling, but that’s been fixed as well).

When I first made a thief, I thought that stealth did apply reveal whenever it wore off, even if not attacking. It seemed so intuitive that I didn’t even bother watching my buff bar. When I found out this wasn’t the case, I was really surprised. I was looking forward to this change because I felt it would’ve been good for the game all around, but apparently I am completely out of touch with what is really going on in the world of GW2.

/signed

I was totally in favour of that change, and I was eagerly awaiting the patch to get stealth in a manageable state, especially with the culling fix. It looked like it was on-track to becoming something that QQers could marginally accept (there will always be whiners).

Instead, Thief got nerfed completely and utterly in to the ground. All PvE stealth rotations are dead. All stealth-focused builds are dead or functioning at a pathetic capacity. All that, because of some PvP crybabies.

Darkjoy.3092:

USE YOUR kitten SHORT BOW AND BLAST FINISH. NO ONE WANTS A kittenTY BACKSTABBING THIEF THEY HAVE TO REVIVE EVERY 10 SEC

Great answer. Use my one method, all other methods are wrong. Love the all-caps touch too, makes you really respectable.

Auesis.7301:

Instead, Thief got nerfed completely and utterly in to the ground. All PvE stealth rotations are dead.

When you add in the extra #1 spam and using the extra initiative spent on 2nd best attack, the dps on the PvE rotations don’t actually go down very much. Increased vulnerability is the main thing, but in a dungeon setting periodic stealth wasn’t much protection anyway with how mobs want to keep chasing stealthed players.

Daeqar.8965:

Auesis.7301:

Instead, Thief got nerfed completely and utterly in to the ground. All PvE stealth rotations are dead.

When you add in the extra #1 spam and using the extra initiative spent on 2nd best attack, the dps on the PvE rotations don’t actually go down very much. Increased vulnerability is the main thing, but in a dungeon setting periodic stealth wasn’t much protection anyway with how mobs want to keep chasing stealthed players.

Second best attack on S/D? Flanking Strike? Don’t make me laugh.

Even the slightest increase in Revealed time has DESTROYED the survivability of my build. Why? Because I use Blind on stealth, followed by the daze and auto-chain. By the time Revealed is over, nearby mobs have missed the attack that I blinded, and are close to their second attack. It was at that point that I hit C+D again, and I could potentially mitigate all nearby damage provided I execute every rotation absolutely perfectly.

Now, I cannot do so. It was INCREDIBLE protection for myself and for nearby teammates. I either have to re-cycle the auto-chain to make space for Revealed to finish, or dodge incoming attacks, spreading mobs out and destroying my flow. If I choose to wait that second longer, I will absorb the damage that I could have mitigated with a stealth blind. This isn’t a minor change to survivability or to vulnerability. This is MASSIVE. That one second makes all the difference between life and death.

Daeqar.8965:

Scootabuser.4915:

…revealed apply to us even if we leave stealth without doing any damage.

That wasn’t as much of a nerf as this was.

Disagree completely.

That change would have destroyed a thief’s ability to turtle and play defensively, which with this change remains entirely, 100% intact. Taking that defensive ability away from the class just to preserve a little bit of offensive capability would have been a huge mistake.

Frankly, I’m ashamed that so many thieves on the forums are so short-sighted to think the 4s revealed is a worse nerf.

There’s a difference between playing defensively versus popping out of stealth only for a fraction of a second every 4 seconds, the latter of which is the only “playstyle” (read exploit) that the originally proposed change would prevent.

Instead, this new change is a blanket 33% nerf to the entirety of the stealth mechanic EXCEPT for those who make use of the aforementioned exploit, ahem, excuse me, I meant “playstyle”.

Come on guys…. just nut up and learn to use it, we needed this nerf.

Auesis.7301:

/signed

I was totally in favour of that change, and I was eagerly awaiting the patch to get stealth in a manageable state, especially with the culling fix. It looked like it was on-track to becoming something that QQers could marginally accept (there will always be whiners).

Instead, Thief got nerfed completely and utterly in to the ground. All PvE stealth rotations are dead. All stealth-focused builds are dead or functioning at a pathetic capacity. All that, because of some PvP crybabies.

Darkjoy.3092:

USE YOUR kitten SHORT BOW AND BLAST FINISH. NO ONE WANTS A kittenTY BACKSTABBING THIEF THEY HAVE TO REVIVE EVERY 10 SEC

Great answer. Use my one method, all other methods are wrong. Love the all-caps touch too, makes you really respectable.

Generally agree with you. While I don’t think all stealth rotations are COMPLETELY dead, I will very certainly admit that we’ve taken a very hard hit to PvE DPS.

Also, good on you for staying mature in the face of people that like to use all caps and type out thoughts that are fueled by 90% emotion. You have my support.

Adaneshade.2409:

Come on guys…. just nut up and learn to use it, we needed this nerf.

We needed the exploit cleared up, and they didn’t do it (wtf).
They have to stop stealth chaining eventually.

Daeqar.8965:

Scootabuser.4915:

…revealed apply to us even if we leave stealth without doing any damage.

That wasn’t as much of a nerf as this was.

Disagree completely.

That change would have destroyed a thief’s ability to turtle and play defensively, which with this change remains entirely, 100% intact. Taking that defensive ability away from the class just to preserve a little bit of offensive capability would have been a huge mistake.

Frankly, I’m ashamed that so many thieves on the forums are so short-sighted to think the 4s revealed is a worse nerf.

4s revealed nerfed S/D dps, daze uptime, healing capabilitys, condition removal, mobility and managed to even kill the basic rotation of that set. It pretty much slapped an already subpar build / weaponset in the face…

instead they could have fixed spamming CnD over and over…

Adaneshade.2409:

Come on guys…. just nut up and learn to use it, we needed this nerf.

You have my support on this one — from a PvP perspective only.

Just try to understand that the reason thieves are upset at this has nothing to do with PvP (or at least for me). It has to do all with PvE.

To give you an example, our typical dagger DPS in dungeons consists of spamming of the following:

Cloak and Dagger —> Backstab -- > Autoattack — > Repeat after revealed wears off.

You have my support in that it was needed for the purpose of PvP — but it is a very significant hit to PvE DPS — and this is why many people, including myself, are a bit peeved.

The real issue about stealth was culling. Now that it’s fixed, why don’t we wait a week to see how it pans out? Eh? Eh? Too much common sense? Okay, carry on with your ramblings.

Daeqar.8965:

Auesis.7301:

Instead, Thief got nerfed completely and utterly in to the ground. All PvE stealth rotations are dead.

When you add in the extra #1 spam and using the extra initiative spent on 2nd best attack, the dps on the PvE rotations don’t actually go down very much. Increased vulnerability is the main thing, but in a dungeon setting periodic stealth wasn’t much protection anyway with how mobs want to keep chasing stealthed players.

There is no 2nd best attack that is better than autoattack. In fact, the autoattack is the best DPS for sword main hand.

The most frightening aspect of this to me is that they have some morbid aversion to ever undoing a change they’ve previously made, as far as I’ve seen.
If they decide later to fix the chain stealth exploits, we’re just going to end up with something far worse like full 4 second Reveal any time you unstealth.
Or following the established trend, they might “fix” chain stealth by removing Vulnerability from CnD.

Adaneshade.2409:

Come on guys…. just nut up and learn to use it, we needed this nerf.

This was not the nerf we needed. They backed out on the one that we really needed to stop the c&d chaining exploit, and gave us this instead.

Mixchimmer.7230:

Adaneshade.2409:

Come on guys…. just nut up and learn to use it, we needed this nerf.

You have my support on this one — from a PvP perspective only.

Just try to understand that the reason thieves are upset at this has nothing to do with PvP (or at least for me). It has to do all with PvE.

To give you an example, our typical dagger DPS in dungeons consists of spamming of the following:

Cloak and Dagger —> Backstab -- > Autoattack — > Repeat after revealed wears off.

You have my support in that it was needed for the purpose of PvP — but it is a very significant hit to PvE DPS — and this is why many people, including myself, are a bit peeved.

If you’re hitting the target dummies in Lion Arch, I would agree with you. Seriously, we don’t stand in one place indefinitely and spam that combo…

stof.9341:

Daeqar.8965:

Auesis.7301:

Instead, Thief got nerfed completely and utterly in to the ground. All PvE stealth rotations are dead.

When you add in the extra #1 spam and using the extra initiative spent on 2nd best attack, the dps on the PvE rotations don’t actually go down very much. Increased vulnerability is the main thing, but in a dungeon setting periodic stealth wasn’t much protection anyway with how mobs want to keep chasing stealthed players.

There is no 2nd best attack that is better than autoattack. In fact, the autoattack is the best DPS for sword main hand.

Figure the damage/initiative and damage/second done on Pistol Whip and Flanking Strike. It’s not that bad and has more output than autoattacks. And we were talking PvE…MH sword stealth cycle is pretty wimpy dps anyway compared to other weapon sets. If you’re worried about dps and performance in the dungeon, you shouldn’t even be using it in the first place.

The damage output is practically the same at barely no difference. Really worth using initiative for …

As for Tactical Strike, the goal is to daze lock targets and 1s more means a lot more damage coming your way.

Daeqar.8965:

stof.9341:

Daeqar.8965:

Auesis.7301:

Instead, Thief got nerfed completely and utterly in to the ground. All PvE stealth rotations are dead.

When you add in the extra #1 spam and using the extra initiative spent on 2nd best attack, the dps on the PvE rotations don’t actually go down very much. Increased vulnerability is the main thing, but in a dungeon setting periodic stealth wasn’t much protection anyway with how mobs want to keep chasing stealthed players.

There is no 2nd best attack that is better than autoattack. In fact, the autoattack is the best DPS for sword main hand.

Figure the damage/initiative and damage/second done on Pistol Whip and Flanking Strike. It’s not that bad and has more output than autoattacks. And we were talking PvE…MH sword stealth cycle is pretty wimpy dps anyway compared to other weapon sets. If you’re worried about dps and performance in the dungeon, you shouldn’t even be using it in the first place.

What a load of rubbish. Flanking Strike is not even close to sustainable initiative use when accompanied with C+D cycling, so that is completely and utterly out of the equation. Sword also hits pretty much the hardest out of all weapons, the auto-chain hitting harder than Pistol Whip and all 3 #1 stages hitting for a good 8-10k in an all-crit cycle when a couple of might stacks have been attained through what was the 3-second cycle. If we’re concerned about DPS, what SHOULD we be using? A single-target burst solution? A solution that deals lower net damage?

Daeqar.8965:

stof.9341:

Daeqar.8965:

Auesis.7301:

Instead, Thief got nerfed completely and utterly in to the ground. All PvE stealth rotations are dead.

When you add in the extra #1 spam and using the extra initiative spent on 2nd best attack, the dps on the PvE rotations don’t actually go down very much. Increased vulnerability is the main thing, but in a dungeon setting periodic stealth wasn’t much protection anyway with how mobs want to keep chasing stealthed players.

There is no 2nd best attack that is better than autoattack. In fact, the autoattack is the best DPS for sword main hand.

Figure the damage/initiative and damage/second done on Pistol Whip and Flanking Strike. It’s not that bad and has more output than autoattacks. And we were talking PvE…MH sword stealth cycle is pretty wimpy dps anyway compared to other weapon sets. If you’re worried about dps and performance in the dungeon, you shouldn’t even be using it in the first place.

Your skills on a sword are more or less built to handle different situations, not to replace the auto attack as dps sources.

ensoriki.5789:

Adaneshade.2409:

Come on guys…. just nut up and learn to use it, we needed this nerf.

We needed the exploit cleared up, and they didn’t do it (wtf).
They have to stop stealth chaining eventually.

Yes, the revealed on leaving stealth should ALSO be implemented, really need both I believe. But they gotta do some more testing I guess before they feel comfortable.

Sifu.6527:

Mixchimmer.7230:

Adaneshade.2409:

Come on guys…. just nut up and learn to use it, we needed this nerf.

You have my support on this one — from a PvP perspective only.

Just try to understand that the reason thieves are upset at this has nothing to do with PvP (or at least for me). It has to do all with PvE.

To give you an example, our typical dagger DPS in dungeons consists of spamming of the following:

Cloak and Dagger —> Backstab -- > Autoattack — > Repeat after revealed wears off.

You have my support in that it was needed for the purpose of PvP — but it is a very significant hit to PvE DPS — and this is why many people, including myself, are a bit peeved.

If you’re hitting the target dummies in Lion Arch, I would agree with you. Seriously, we don’t stand in one place indefinitely and spam that combo…

Well of course I don’t stand in one place silly. I still spam the combo though — I do it in FoTM and other explorables on bosses that need to be DPSsd down, with great effect — this is possible with a few well placed dodges.

Although in your wording, you do point out well that I said “Our typical dagger DPS rotation” as opposed to “my typical dagger DPS rotation”. My apologies for making it sound like I was trying to speak you and others — I should have worded it differently.

Sifu.6527:

Mixchimmer.7230:

Adaneshade.2409:

Come on guys…. just nut up and learn to use it, we needed this nerf.

You have my support on this one — from a PvP perspective only.

Just try to understand that the reason thieves are upset at this has nothing to do with PvP (or at least for me). It has to do all with PvE.

To give you an example, our typical dagger DPS in dungeons consists of spamming of the following:

Cloak and Dagger —> Backstab -- > Autoattack — > Repeat after revealed wears off.

You have my support in that it was needed for the purpose of PvP — but it is a very significant hit to PvE DPS — and this is why many people, including myself, are a bit peeved.

If you’re hitting the target dummies in Lion Arch, I would agree with you. Seriously, we don’t stand in one place indefinitely and spam that combo…

Wait what….? We don’t…? DANG IT! Im doing it wrong all over again!

I think thiefs should at least give it a week, but without culling in WvW im SCARED!
Besides just lowering the backstab damage slightly, or at least not giving it the double damage might help (or give it 150% damage, still viable but less OP).

Cause it seems like people are really kitten about the backstabbing & HSing. I guess those are mostly players that play squishy power builds as well, so just giving the BS a tiny nerf (dont go all out) should make everyone slightly happier?

That way s/d build doesnt get hit so hard either as mentioned before, cause I dont see anyone mentioning that as the OP build.

Anyway for now just try and work with it and see if you can work around the problem, I for one will

Not a fan of nerfs though, I vote for buffs on all classes! And 1 button, 20 pve kills buff!

StugLyfe.2134:

All you stealth abusers brought this on yourselves. What the 1,000 topics on this problem were all just community QQ in your minds lol ….. funny stuff here today.

ANET DEVS this was a long long time coming thank you very much!

For every bad thief that leaves today 10 players will return for this patch.

You know what’s absolutely kittening hilarious Mr QQueen? This change does absolutely nothing to the so-called “stealth abusers” that make you cry every time you log in.

I can’t wait to keep making people like you mad and sad at their inability to counter a simple mechanic.

miniL.7361:

Sifu.6527:

Mixchimmer.7230:

Adaneshade.2409:

Come on guys…. just nut up and learn to use it, we needed this nerf.

You have my support on this one — from a PvP perspective only.

Just try to understand that the reason thieves are upset at this has nothing to do with PvP (or at least for me). It has to do all with PvE.

To give you an example, our typical dagger DPS in dungeons consists of spamming of the following:

Cloak and Dagger —> Backstab -- > Autoattack — > Repeat after revealed wears off.

You have my support in that it was needed for the purpose of PvP — but it is a very significant hit to PvE DPS — and this is why many people, including myself, are a bit peeved.

If you’re hitting the target dummies in Lion Arch, I would agree with you. Seriously, we don’t stand in one place indefinitely and spam that combo…

Wait what….? We don’t…? DANG IT! Im doing it wrong all over again!

I think thiefs should at least give it a week, but without culling in WvW im SCARED!

Been in WvW the past couple of hours. I’ve noticed ZERO impact on my gameplay.

Straegen.2938:

It is 1… 1 freaking second on a combo that is still so ridiculously powerful no other class can match it. People here are QQing about still being really powerful.

Again, in PvP it’s definitely warranted and you are correct in saying that no other class can match that kind of burst in PvP.

However, the only reason it peeves me a little is that it significantly inhibits the ability to deal DPS in PvE — and there are classes that do loads more damage in PvE even before the patch — Warriors.

I’m not saying I want to have DPS equal to theirs — but as it’s one of the only things we bring to a group, you have to understand that from a PvE position it DOES seem a little unfair. Particularly because the change was mentioned as being specifically for PvP.

Also, can we please stop using that phrase… “QQing”. Dropping into another class’s subforum and telling them they’re “QQing” doesn’t really add anything to a discussion. It just tries to incite negative feelings and I prefer to have discussions about issues on the forums instead of arguments for the sake of “Internet logic owns”.

That was a most unfair and most unlogical nerf I’ve ever seen… :P Espescialy when they put such a thing after HALF YEAR of skilling as a thief! After half year its hard to change your habits fighting in pvp and REMEBER to wait 1 more seconds to not waste your ininciative AND DIE… ARENANET- WHAT WHERE YOU THINKING?! You could give even 5seconds reaveal but not now- after I and other ppl play this game for HALF YEAR. Give me a person who bring this “brilliant” idea and I will convince him that it was the worst nerf for thief and – what is worse- FOR PLAYERS SKILLS you could ever do…

Straegen.2938:

It is 1… 1 freaking second on a combo that is still so ridiculously powerful no other class can match it. People here are QQing about still being really powerful.

You are aware there are 4 stealth skills in the game.
Please inform me of this all power Sword or Shortbow combo that wrecks face that no one else can match.
Reality is, it’s a fairly poor fix, it isn’t that big a deal in WvW & PvE to be frank if you’re using a Sword since 3s daze vs 1s downtime aint bad at all, but this is all encompassing and regardless spvp, wvw, pve. All your natural timing is thrown off.
Wrong direction to go as I see it.

your rotation is messed up?? rotation = wow. there is already a game where you can macro your whole dps chain to 1 button. i think they expect you to think on your feet about the best thing to do. not have a 1 2 3 button rotation that = braindead. maybe im mistaken. i know that "rotation"isnt the only thing this hurt. adapt and evolve.

Adaneshade.2409:

miniL.7361:

Sifu.6527:

Mixchimmer.7230:

Adaneshade.2409:

Come on guys…. just nut up and learn to use it, we needed this nerf.

You have my support on this one — from a PvP perspective only.

Just try to understand that the reason thieves are upset at this has nothing to do with PvP (or at least for me). It has to do all with PvE.

To give you an example, our typical dagger DPS in dungeons consists of spamming of the following:

Cloak and Dagger —> Backstab -- > Autoattack — > Repeat after revealed wears off.

You have my support in that it was needed for the purpose of PvP — but it is a very significant hit to PvE DPS — and this is why many people, including myself, are a bit peeved.

If you’re hitting the target dummies in Lion Arch, I would agree with you. Seriously, we don’t stand in one place indefinitely and spam that combo…

Wait what….? We don’t…? DANG IT! Im doing it wrong all over again!

I think thiefs should at least give it a week, but without culling in WvW im SCARED!

Been in WvW the past couple of hours. I’ve noticed ZERO impact on my gameplay.

Guess people rather complain first than test it a little better
Exactly my point, I couldnt enter WvW so couldnt see how culling changed.

Because I meant that culling might have given us stealth on other people their screens while we no longer had it. Which would mean we would get spotted sooner now.

On the other hand I dont think it will influence the playstyle because of course I work with what I see on my own screen, meaning when Hide dissapears, be ready for attacks and start attacking.

Also I dont think the 1 second extra on the revealed debuffs makes a huge impact. Sure, I gotta change my timing because I was already used to the 3seconds without checking on the debuff. This will take a week, and then I will have the feeling for 4 seconds just fine.

In any case I dont see all that much trouble coming from this. I do from my 15 → 10 sec caltrops, which where nice on bosses 2

Allthough its easier to have the same set-up in PVE & PVP so the feeling doesnt change and causes mistakes, I can understand the thiefs being mad about everything working the same in PVE & PVP as the reason for changing doesnt have to apply in both.

But perhaps they can live with this update as well as long as they try 2 for a week or so

zaxon.6819:

your rotation is messed up?? rotation = wow. there is already a game where you can macro your whole dps chain to 1 button. i think they expect you to think on your feet about the best thing to do. not have a 1 2 3 button rotation that = braindead. maybe im mistaken. i know that "rotation"isnt the only thing this hurt. adapt and evolve.

In that case they might need a slowmotion option for some bosses and skills, or we need insane reflexes. Besides the game can be amazingly repetitive which they create themselves. 1200 badges for a full dungeon gear, if you just want 1 set. That means you gotta run the same path a kittenload of times and most paths even look-a-like.

In that case you go numb for it (take fractals, even better example) and instead of improvisation and quick thinking U will be really slow and use the same rotation because you have seen enough of the dungeon/boss.

The first few times its challenging, but considering the rewards, and best rewards being the tokens which U need lots of I can understand people who wont use different skill setups each time.

Dont get me wrong, I played my warrior in dungeons for a long time, changing skills & build so my play changed in the dungeons, but the dungeons dont change. On my thief I have also played crit d/d, crit p/p and a condition build, and with different utility going along and so a different playstyle.

That doesnt change the fact that certain rotations work, and U dont want to have to keep changing it if not for a different challenge (new boss, new skills etc).

Straegen.2938:

It is 1… 1 freaking second on a combo that is still so ridiculously powerful no other class can match it. People here are QQing about still being really powerful.

Except the Warrior’s Axe auto-attack.
I’m dead serious, check the wiki.
Backstab is far, far from the best damage in the game. People just hate it because they don’t see it coming.

Dps on a warrior’s axe is roughly the same on thieves daggers, if they are built similarly. They hit harder, but slow. taking 3.9s to complete a combo compared to a thieves which is about 2s. Misconception people make about it.

BobbyT.7192:

Dps on a warrior’s axe is roughly the same on thieves daggers, if they are built similarly. They hit harder, but slow. taking 3.9s to complete a combo compared to a thieves which is about 2s. Misconception people make about it.

And Axes cleave up to 3 targets with their autoattack. Seems fair.

BobbyT.7192:

Dps on a warrior’s axe is roughly the same on thieves daggers, if they are built similarly. They hit harder, but slow. taking 3.9s to complete a combo compared to a thieves which is about 2s. Misconception people make about it.

The comparison is that axe third chain in auto attack that takes 3.6s to go through hits harder than backstab that a thief requires 4.75s to go through at best (in reality more along the 5.75-6.75 range)

Auto attack damage only axe would still be ahead, the full chain for dagger deals a base of 7kittenage every 2 seconds, axe does a base of 1648 damage over 3.6 seconds.

So daggers auto attack is 380 dps axe is 458 dps

As a PvE-Thief its less about the Damage Nerf. Yes, it’s a pitty, but hey at least we deal still more DPS then a Ranger.

But x/Dagger Gameplay feels so sticky and not smooth right now and thats just stupid.

This was not the nerf Thieves needed.

stof.9341:

BobbyT.7192:

Dps on a warrior’s axe is roughly the same on thieves daggers, if they are built similarly. They hit harder, but slow. taking 3.9s to complete a combo compared to a thieves which is about 2s. Misconception people make about it.

And Axes cleave up to 3 targets with their autoattack. Seems fair.

And daggers regens endurance and inflict poison. Different weapons are meant to be defferent, doesn’t mean one is better then the other, that cleaving wouldn’t be that helpful in a boss fight or 1v1 now would it.

Adaneshade.2409:

miniL.7361:

Sifu.6527:

Mixchimmer.7230:

Adaneshade.2409:

Come on guys…. just nut up and learn to use it, we needed this nerf.

You have my support on this one — from a PvP perspective only.

Just try to understand that the reason thieves are upset at this has nothing to do with PvP (or at least for me). It has to do all with PvE.

To give you an example, our typical dagger DPS in dungeons consists of spamming of the following:

Cloak and Dagger —> Backstab -- > Autoattack — > Repeat after revealed wears off.

You have my support in that it was needed for the purpose of PvP — but it is a very significant hit to PvE DPS — and this is why many people, including myself, are a bit peeved.

If you’re hitting the target dummies in Lion Arch, I would agree with you. Seriously, we don’t stand in one place indefinitely and spam that combo…

Wait what….? We don’t…? DANG IT! Im doing it wrong all over again!

I think thiefs should at least give it a week, but without culling in WvW im SCARED!

Been in WvW the past couple of hours. I’ve noticed ZERO impact on my gameplay.

I’ve had the opposite experience honestly.

It wasn’t until I ran with a guild group and used SB almost exclusively that I found it didn’t impact my play…..

Not gonna read through all this, but i defenitly prefer the extra reveal second over always revealed.

always revealing,

-conflicts with traits, utilities and teamplay
-makes thieves even more predictable
-removes our form of substain

the damage loss so many people complain about is rather insignificant as any competent opponent will not let you land your chain in perfect succesion each time.

Pure burst never had the substain to maintain for multiple in and outs, lack of ini and simply to squishy.

Hybrid power builds rely on sometimes taking an extra stealth chain to maintain in the fights, the same goes for condi builds.

Neither of these last 2 builds have enough pressure to kill any decent bunker and is balanced in fights without such bunker play.

And for all those complaining about thieves stealth surfing through zergs waiting for the right moments, isn’t that all what a thief is about being annoying in such situations, if your teammates around you can’t be bothered to throw in a cc to save you if you go down to a thief in the backline or they don’t want to react with 2 people ressing then imo the thief deserves that kill in the first place.

As let’s face it there are enough ways to counter a melee skill that eats half the inititative to maintain stealth only on builds that either lack the burst to down you instant or simply wear you down with one condi type that is easy to control.

And as said before with culling fix in place and the extra second reveal, people have a much easier time countering these thieves in the first place.

Thieves no matter what build they run still eat a lot of damage and are really fragile to CC, we don’t have easy acces to protection or stability like a lot of other classes have to maintain our pressence.

Imo thieves are therefor pretty balanced atm, sadly because of how stealth works, we aren’t that viable inside spvp tournament play outside of pure burst build setups because most builds outlast us or delay us long enough while they cap the point on any other build, so that leaves us with a cheesy option.

Would the other reveal change change that, no it wouldn’t either it would just criple us more then the current change does.

PS: considering the substained thieves, they all balance imo as a d/d you have the burst but not the disables yet not the burst to instagib, kitten d you have the disables but not the burst to pressure hard enough (especially with quickness change), as p/d you have the pressure , but again not the disables to utilise on it, as d/p you have the burst you have the disables but you don’t have enough inititative to always utilise on all of this.

So overall i consider the thief fairly balanced atm, no matter what build you play you will always have things keeping it in check wether it will be lack of burst, disables, initiative, or pressure each set has something the other doesn’t provide, and i consider the SB the defensive weapon to swap 2 when you either want to make distance or evade. as all other setups besides p/p require you to be go into melee.

Dasorine.1964:

BobbyT.7192:

Dps on a warrior’s axe is roughly the same on thieves daggers, if they are built similarly. They hit harder, but slow. taking 3.9s to complete a combo compared to a thieves which is about 2s. Misconception people make about it.

The comparison is that axe third chain in auto attack that takes 3.6s to go through hits harder than backstab that a thief requires 4.75s to go through at best (in reality more along the 5.75-6.75 range)

Auto attack damage only axe would still be ahead, the full chain for dagger deals a base of 7kittenage every 2 seconds, axe does a base of 1648 damage over 3.6 seconds.

So daggers auto attack is 380 dps axe is 458 dps

Funny, i’m getting ~900dps for the both, In the mist i use basic weapons, no traits, runes or sigils, and a beserker amulet on both. Stats are pretty much the same(axes slightly higher to due the damage on axes itself), and it take both 10s to down the light armor golem with just AAs. With the thief taking 6-7s to kill it with AAs + 2 C&D/BS combos . Been doing that test for the last hour and thats what i keep coming up with.
Just to note, i opened up with the BS combo, 2 auto chains and another BS. Doing it with an Auto combo first, one BS, and 2 more autos, took 8s

LionZero.3479:

Not gonna read through all this, but i defenitly prefer the extra reveal second over always revealed.

Yes, you would prefer that, because you are a PvP thief. The very thing they tried to nerf, but ended up nerfing PvE thieves instead for no reason.