Guild Wars 2

I have been running it in both sPvP and WvW on my main build, it is extremely effective against the meta—which is boon reliant.

Some of the complaints you raise are more “this isn’t in a trait line I take” rather than “this trait is inherently bad.” I would argue that for people who are already taking SA for stealth focused builds the trait is a really strong bonus to the stealth attack. If stealth attacks are weak for most weapon sets this trait is a way to make stealth attacks more valuable. Further, by placing the trait in the SA line, which is designed to enhance stealth abilities of the thief the choice makes perfect sense.

In part, you seem to be overly focused on the meta—which does not use SA—because Shadowshot and auto attack are overpowered and backstab relatively weak comparatively at the moment. The main reason P/D makes sense with Rending Shade is precisely because the stealth attacks are essential to making the weapon set function. Sure, the extra shots in Sneak Attack help to land Rending Shade compared to D/D or D/P, but the real reason people wouldn’t take those abilities now is because Backstab isn’t worth using over Shadowshot.

Part of why I say RS is a “good” trait is precisely because the trait functions well when you use Stealth Attacks consistently. Whether or not using the stealth attack on a particular set makes sense is more a balance question for the weapon and not for the trait. It isn’t the trait’s fault that backstab is underpowered after all.

rennlc.7346:

babazhook.6805:

I have found P/d is more effective with this trait. It still might need a tweak to make it more useful for other sets but P/d can do well by it. If YOU have not tried it, you can not comment on whether or not it effective. If you do not play p/d or do not care to, you can not make a comment as to whether this works with that set.

If you’re finding success in duels and WvW roaming against certain classes or other niche situations like that, cool! Way to make use of a newer trait.

My question for you is about how RS should be labelled. Should it be considered a “good” trait because it can improve a more situational build like P/D? Or should it be labelled a “bad” trait because it’s usefulness is so situational whereas comparatively the meta traits are not?

For the sake of communicating a simpler, more accurate consensus opinion to the developers, I think we should be labeling something like RS as bad.

No we should not label it as bad premised on your view as to what constitutes a build. You are meta pvp fixated. That is niche.

PVp has artificial restrictions based upon it which make a whole pile of stuff appear “bad”. It like organizing a car race between Chicago and Kansai City and when all designs submitted then stating “By the way the speed limit will be 60 mph and no vehicle will be allowed to use a road or highway”.

Builds submitted with low to the ground cars that have great handling, a top high speed and great acceleration would not win such a race. that does not mean those things are BAD when it comes to car races. Context must be understood.

RS works on the P/d build I tested and works very well. Now , as i have stated i will see how it works with various power builds.

I have already stated certain reservations on RS and what might be a few needed tweaks but am at least willing to test builds that would utilize it rather then just dismiss it out of hand because it not meta. We still got a whole pile of people who claim Acro a bad trait line while at the same time a whole pile of people submit builds using Acro with which they do very well. Who is correct? Those that try it and make it work or those wo do not try it or can not make it work?

The fixation of those Metaphiles on the meta means they can not be objective on ANY of the traits. They have already passed judgment because it not Meta and for no other reason.

I haven’t tested it out but does it strip per hit or per attack with Sneak Attack on Pistol

I have a feeling it works just like Hidden Killer. Only the first valid proc activates. With Sneak Attack you at least get 5 chances to make it work.

babazhook.6805:

The fixation of those Metaphiles on the meta means they can not be objective on ANY of the traits. They have already passed judgment because it not Meta and for no other reason.

From experience, I’ve learned the following:

-P/D falls short in sPvP because of projectile counters and lack of AoE for cleaving.
-SA, prior to RS, falls short because of lacking damage modifiers. RS helps with this when it removes prot but what about the situations where raw +% dmg is better, like cleaving and fighting thieves? The word we’re going to keep coming back to is situational. It’s why SA still needs more work.
-Bound, which I’m highlighting because it would be crucial in D/P RS builds for stealth access, falls short because of immobility compared to dash.
-Thieves without DA (mainly because of lotus poison), daredevil, and trickery are easy for me to beat. One of which must be given up for SA.

I like what regularly works well (as long as it’s a thief build). I like not having to change builds because it has holes and I’m up against someone who will exploit those holes, such as not having lotus poison and knowing an opposing thief will tend to chase me.

There are other players who like these same things.

In our effort to improve, win, and ultimately, have fun, a consensus gets made out of the general choices in these pursuits. I’m sorry if the presence of that consensus intrudes on your self-concepts, such as your sense of individuality, intellectual ability, or whatever else it is that exacerbates the negative feelings you experience from being told you’re currently mistaken. I won’t call you names or use tribal generalizations. I don’t need to. I tried to help. I failed.

rennlc.7346:

babazhook.6805:

The fixation of those Metaphiles on the meta means they can not be objective on ANY of the traits. They have already passed judgment because it not Meta and for no other reason.

From experience, I’ve learned the following:

-P/D falls short in sPvP because of projectile counters and lack of AoE for cleaving.
-SA, prior to RS, falls short because of lacking damage modifiers. RS helps with this when it removes prot but what about the situations where raw +% dmg is better, like cleaving and fighting thieves? The word we’re going to keep coming back to is situational. It’s why SA still needs more work.
-Bound, which I’m highlighting because it would be crucial in D/P RS builds for stealth access, falls short because of immobility compared to dash.
-Thieves without DA (mainly because of lotus poison), daredevil, and trickery are easy for me to beat. One of which must be given up for SA.

I like what regularly works well (as long as it’s a thief build). I like not having to change builds because it has holes and I’m up against someone who will exploit those holes, such as not having lotus poison and knowing an opposing thief will tend to chase me.

There are other players who like these same things.

In our effort to improve, win, and ultimately, have fun, a consensus gets made out of the general choices in these pursuits. I’m sorry if the presence of that consensus intrudes on your self-concepts, such as your sense of individuality, intellectual ability, or whatever else it is that exacerbates the negative feelings you experience from being told you’re currently mistaken. I won’t call you names or use tribal generalizations. I don’t need to. I tried to help. I failed.

The OP was not talking about PvP. This is not the PvP topic. This is the thief topic. As I stated PvP is an artificial environment.

In PVP due to limitations of the Amulets damage modifiers become more important.

If you want to talk about PvP and why this will not work there start a topic. There is a meta for WvW as well you know and, quite frankly, I am not impressed by the p/d condition build placed there. I have played that build and this is superior.

Your problem is you can not divorce yourself from the PvP meta and assume every discussion on the theif must be about the game mode you prefer.

Your description of what is fun is yours not anyone else so do not presume to speak for everyone. You speak for yourself . There is no consensus here as by definition consensus is an opinion arrived at by an entire group and not a subset of the same. Persons who are interested only in PvP or only in D/P can not claim to form a concensus when they exclude the opinions of peoples who favor other weaponsets or game modes.

Your original post in this topic referred specifically to the backstab skill used only by two of our weapon sets. As such by definition you can not claim to speak from the position of Consensus as there are many thieves who do not play those sets.

As a matter of fact the Meta build site itself is not one that is a Consensus among thieves as many thieves do not use that site and many do not rely on the builds posted there.

You offer only your opinion as to whether it will work on the d/p weaponset and more specifically as it relates to PvP.

Exclusion looks like this.

babazhook.6805:

The fixation of those Metaphiles on the meta means they can not be objective on ANY of the traits. They have already passed judgment because it not Meta and for no other reason.

Referring to individual people as they and giving a negative name to summarize a perceived group of people. I have made no such remarks about you or any other poster in this thread.

In my mind, we, those of us who would bother to read a thread about Rending Shade (a trait that would more commonly be taken in sPvP or WvW than PvE – at least I hope), are all just PvPers. WvW and sPvP have more in common than not. You spend less time running away from fights and standing in circles until they turn white and I spend less time looking for fights and avoiding zergs. Beyond that, it’s probably still some of the same insanity of avoiding mesmer clones, attempting to prevent druid celestial heals, watching out for thief bursts, etc.

The added damage stats make it easier to take improv without becoming unable to down someone for lack of damage. Mug, lotus poison, and panic strike are all so very good. Even with greater offensive stats and easier access to blood lust, why wouldn’t you still typically take DA in WvW other than when experimenting? It’s not like the +%damage can ever become redundant, particularly with so many other benefits.

Ghotistyx.6942:

I have a feeling it works just like Hidden Killer. Only the first valid proc activates. With Sneak Attack you at least get 5 chances to make it work.

Correct.

I did not claim I was speaking for all thieves or to a consensus they have arrived at. That is what you did. I stated that RS worked very well with a P/d build which it in fact does. I also stated that just because it not in that meta does not mean it a useless skill.
A metaphile is nothing more then a person obssessed with the Meta. It hardly a degratory name any more then being a “sports nut” is.

I also gave my build and stated several times over that I take DA, Trickery and SA. I do not find taking DD adds more damage to a p/d condition build as one generally does not take impaling lotus in such a build if you want to maintain stealth. That is about the only trait that adds anything significant as far as damage goes to a condition build.

It does offer more dodges via endurance and more Condition cleanse but I already stated I have learned to deal with that lacking and am prepared to be weaker in that regard in order to maintain the damage of DA. In a P/d condition build the DD line is more about adding defensive utilities or sustain.

DD does offer up impairing daggers, but I find an extra use of the needle trap superior.

So to what SA offers specifically ? It is my main condition cleanse given I am not taking DD. It adds a second to stealth and extra speed in stealth (hidden theif) meaning on a typical stealth via a CND I can move 1200 units before I lose stealth. A stealth thus allows that target drop and an ability to relocate on the field of battle to launch that sneak attack. That extra second also allows me more flexibility as to exactly when i will perform that attack making it harder for the enemy to dodge.

Merciful ambush in WvW with that 25 percent less damage and high armor build means the success rate of my resses in game of downed teamates is very high. This alone can help turn a battle around.

On a steal I gain stealth as well. This sets up a sneak attack followed by a shadowstrike which loads significant conditions on. This also means I have taken 5 boons away from the enemy. These boons are often things like protection, regeneration, stability switfness fury and the like.

if I steal stability , which is very common out there i am immune to followup fears, or knockbacks or stuns. The success rate of my stealths goes UP due to this. less of my attacks are thrawted by CC. I can steal into a DH trap and not be dazed using a shadowstrike to port away all the while stealing boons and applying those conditions.

I am not tied to a 21 second cycle of steal and BT in order to steal these boons. If BT on cooldown and I used up a stability on one attack, I can steal another stability from stealth for my next.

Prior to making this change I also had issues with the warriors with high boon durations that would use resistance and just shrug off my attacks. In fact were I to meet one on this build prior to RS I would just not bother as the BT would not be enough to get the resistance and he could apply boons faster then the cooldown of BT allowed me to steal them.

Now it very much easier and hese guys can melt in short order once I take that resistance away.

DD can not do this. Nor can DA.

Now to the specifics of the build and why you still seem to speak only from the d/p power perspective.. You suggest Mug, Panic strike as being so very good. This is a condition build premised on traps and those traits do little for the build.

I do not need the heal off Mug and the damage done from mug is insignificant on a Condition build . I get more damage and utility with trappers respite.

trappers respite gives a needle trap on heal. This trap is superior to panic strike as I get close to 6 seconds of immob, 3 bleed and a poison. Further to that i gain 5 might and 5 vulnerability applied to an enemy. Weakness from poison is also applied.

The build does not need panic strike Deadly trapper is much more useful as i can use it to get a lower cooldown on a trap and have the use of two needle traps in 24 seconds time which apply longer Immobs then panic strike along with apply vulnerability and giving me might. they aslo add 3 bleeds and a poison. I got more immob then you can ever get with panic strike on d/p.

my number 2 skill is close to a 2 second Immob which can be spammed each time applying Vuln and that immobilize.

In a typical fight i ran with 10 stacks of might just from traps as well as having 15 stacks of vuln on the enemy from traps and #2 or CnD.

On a steal I can apply all at once , 5 stacks confusion ,3 bleeds, 3 poison a close to 6 second Immob , 5 stacks of Vuln and 5 might to myself along with weakness on the enemy. This steals me three boons and applies vigor and i can immediately followup with a sneak attack for 5 bleeds and the theft of two more boons against an Immobbed foe with shadowstrike away for 2 torment as a kicker.

rennlc.7346:

DeceiverX.8361:

Yes and no. While I don’t think RS or SA is a particularly good way to go right now generally speaking (It works with P/x stealth due to aforementioned multi-hit synergy working with the ICD and short-term negation), stating that SA isn’t good because it’s not in the meta and then saying the meta is determined by crowdsourced investigation is slightly contradictory; in order for a healthy meta to be established, someone needs to break the mold for whatever reason or lack thereof and create a new optimum case. The better-designed and balanced the game is, the more difficult it is to find those optima, and thus there is more fluctuation and fluidity in between any given match.

Hi, Deceiver. What I had originally said was SA wasn’t good because what it offered was generally less than what DA offered (which, in my opinion, is the weakest of the meta trait lines). It’s not just bad because it’s not meta; it’s bad because it’s generally worse than what is currently considered meta. I did not make this determination as lightly (nor as blindly) as you’re perceiving from a post where I tried to express my argument in a different a way.

Otherwise, I agree with what you say in principle. In any competitive area there needs to be some sort of balance between practicing what’s been better established as what works and experimentation. In GW2, this would specifically be playing a current meta build vs. playing currently non-meta builds. Nonetheless, look at how many non-meta builds are typically posted and shared on this forum. If this is reflective of what a lot of us are doing with our time, we’re probably spending too much time experimenting.

Ultimately, that’s what the whole issue of “What should I play?” is going to become – it’s going to become a matter of economy/efficiency. Are hours of non-meta builds going to be helpful for goals like having fun, winning, etc.? Absolutely. But are they going to be as helpful as using that same time to learn more of the nuances of the current meta? Only for those who really like novelty through experimentation and those who uncover something new and better are going to get more out of focusing on the non-meta. For most of us, especially those who value winning and making good plays more than the joys of experimentation, we’d be better off trusting that the meta typically gets many more things right than wrong.

Nothing I can disagree with here only in the sense that it’s only worth doing if you do not care about being at the top of the top in the sense that you need to constantly be experimenting if you do. The experimenters typically set the precedent and the meta only changes because a new optimum at that given point in time is found. The top players in the globe are almost always on the forefront of new builds and know exactly why they’re good, when a meta build may not be. That’s not saying playing the meta is a waste of time – you need to play the best build well to be the best, too – but simply following along and not seeking to shake things up without experimenting is definitely self-hindering; getting .1% better at one set or style by spending another 100 hours will do you less good than spending said 100 hours trying new builds/experimenting to find something that could be 1% better.

No offense, but it might have helped to portray your intentions this way earlier, though; your initial post reads like you simply think doing anything except playing the meta is a waste of time, and not worth investigating at all, which for reasons explained, simply isn’t true, even if it will help the “average” player do better earlier on.

So, the general consensus is that sPvP is the “hardest” mode for thieves to compete in. For that reason I decided to take some time to PvP. I’m normally a WvW player, so the hit to damage and survivability was an adjustment to be sure. My goal was to figure out how my damage and boonstrip worked out in the average match. After all, if we want to compare boonstrip ability, a match that ends with a stat screen is a pretty solid piece of evidence.

I’ve encountered some pretty good players and some bad ones in the course of playing some matches. I’ve only been playing my build from WvW with a Carrion amulet because that provides the HP and damage I expect. I’ve especially come to appreciate more the stacking kill bonus sigils I normally run with, because, with the adjusted stats, the stacking bonus is much more significant than in WvW where I run with much higher overall stats.

I ran between 200-300k condition damage applied in matchups. I removed between 100-150 boons per match. I tended to have credit on 10-15 kills and 10-15 cap/decaps overall.

Rending Shade pushed my performance against Warrior especially, and also druid. Dragonhunters are the toughest matchup just because the time to kill one is generally too long to justify a 1v1—the map is too small to have those stay 1v1 anyways. Necros are much harder than I’m used to in WvW but not unreasonably so. I had some excellent 1v1’s with engineers. Same with mesmers who have waaaaay too many blocks/invulns but I love fighting them for the challenge with targeting. I don’t run into too many revs, but the lack of cleanse really hurts them, and I’ve never noticed them using resistance—maybe because I’m stripping it? Warriors are the ones I noticed with resistance, and it still impeded me for at least a few seconds in those cases.

The difficulty with Rending Shade is that, if your stealth access is tied to CnD, you can’t simply CnD off a blocking DH and strip their boons that way. So much aegis. But, it still gives you a strong bonus in wearing them down. I’d say you might get better boonstrip consistently off offhand pistol, simply because you have more consistent stealth access. This comes with a higher initiative cost though so it might just be a wash.

I have stolen multiple stacks of boons before. It was off a test NPC in HotM and I was able to grab all of the might that was on the NPC.

I think more testing is necessary to fully test this because often if there are enough covering boons the ones that stack like might don’t get touched as much as aegis/resistance/etc that only stack duration. I like stealing those boons though, so it isn’t really a problem.

I tested some more last night in combat WvW. I am now 80 percent sure It steals full stacks thus getting you all of that might. Might IS buried under those others and reapps happen so fast with some classes it can be hard to get at.

As such this does add offensive potential to the SA line.

I do agree that it not all about the might. I am really liking how frequently I can load up stability. With stability on I can avoid all manner of knockbacks, pulls , stuns and dazes.

Yeah rending shade can steal stacks I tested with a friend he used warrior shield block and I attacked him with quickness so to give him a decent amount of might then I used backstab on him and I got all 14 of his might stacks

babazhook.6805:

I tested some more last night in combat WvW. I am now 80 percent sure It steals full stacks thus getting you all of that might. Might IS buried under those others and reapps happen so fast with some classes it can be hard to get at.

As such this does add offensive potential to the SA line.

I do agree that it not all about the might. I am really liking how frequently I can load up stability. With stability on I can avoid all manner of knockbacks, pulls , stuns and dazes.

Good to know I need to start actually testing things myself in depth again even if I’m not going to use said changes; so much of the early consensus from others claimed it only stole one instance of boons that I just went with it.

So this is one example of running Rending Shade in sPvP.