Guild Wars 2

In every video game where invisibility is involved, the invisible player will have an unfair advantage.

Lets just imagine this hypothetical situation. You are pretty low on money at the moment, and you have to gamble to make ends meet. There is a gym right near where you live that has boxing matches on the weekends. There is a guy who sits at a table in the back room, you can place bets with him. You go up to place your very first bet, it is your last few dollars. You know nothing about either fighters at the moment, so you say to the bookie. Can you tell me about the fighters? The bookie says well one of the fighters is invisible. Which do you choose the visible fighter, or the invisible one?

People do not like being jumped by invisible players who are capable of burning down their health bars in less than 5 seconds even with 2k toughness and 20k hp. What is so horrible about those 5 seconds is it is possible to be stun locked the entire time, even with stun break/condition removal utilities. Invisibility has been a broken mechanic ever since some lazy developer said “hey I don’t have to actually make the sprites, I can just say this monster is invisible”.

well, if your associate it with boxing lets say, the invisible boxer is pacquiao, and the opponent is young Tyson, that charges at you, with a greatsword

Except the thief isn’t invisible all the time, and neither are they the only class that can stealth.

Here’s another hypothetical question:

You are pretty low on money at the moment, and you have to gamble to make ends meet. There is a gym right near where you live that has boxing matches on the weekends. There is a guy who sits at a table in the back room, you can place bets with him. You go up to place your very first bet, it is your last few dollars. You know nothing about either fighters at the moment, so you say to the bookie. Can you tell me about the fighters? The bookie says well one of the fighters is invisible, and can make clones of themself. Which do you choose the visible fighter, or the invisible one that can make multiple copies of themself?

Here’s one more:

You are pretty low on money at the moment, and you have to gamble to make ends meet. There is a gym right near where you live that has boxing matches on the weekends. There is a guy who sits at a table in the back room, you can place bets with him. You go up to place your very first bet, it is your last few dollars. You know nothing about either fighters at the moment, so you say to the bookie. Can you tell me about the fighters? The bookie says well one of the fighters is invulnerable. Which do you choose the vulnerable fighter, or the invulnerable one?

I can keep going…but hopefully you get the picture.

Just think of this. There are players of every profession who love to go and hunt down thieves. They think they are easy kills and always target them in groups. They will say that most of the time they can either kill or force a thief to run 1 on 1.

Why are you not one of these players?

What you say is just wrong. Every class has a counter to burst and thief can’t run around invisible outside of a very specific spec that isn’t the burst one you are QQing about here. If you don’t know what 900 units is, get used to it. That’s the engage range of a Thief. Have your stun breaks and immunity/block ready. A x/D thief cannot stealth spam unless you let them. If you make them miss C&D you steal their init and take away both their offense and defense at the same time.

I have similar stats to you and can actually tank a burst thief through b-venom if I choose to and not die. I don’t recommend that but it should give you plenty of time to react. If you can’t then it’s on you.

Loading, It is a boxing match so both fighters are in the same weight class, and around the same skill.

Sorry Kurow, but the deconstruction argument style is not one I enjoy engaging in.

Kurow.6973:

Except the thief isn’t invisible all the time, and neither are they the only class that can stealth.

Here’s another hypothetical question:

You are pretty low on money at the moment, and you have to gamble to make ends meet. There is a gym right near where you live that has boxing matches on the weekends. There is a guy who sits at a table in the back room, you can place bets with him. You go up to place your very first bet, it is your last few dollars. You know nothing about either fighters at the moment, so you say to the bookie. Can you tell me about the fighters? The bookie says well one of the fighters is invisible, and can make clones of themself. Which do you choose the visible fighter, or the invisible one that can make multiple copies of themself?

Here’s one more:

You are pretty low on money at the moment, and you have to gamble to make ends meet. There is a gym right near where you live that has boxing matches on the weekends. There is a guy who sits at a table in the back room, you can place bets with him. You go up to place your very first bet, it is your last few dollars. You know nothing about either fighters at the moment, so you say to the bookie. Can you tell me about the fighters? The bookie says well one of the fighters is invulnerable. Which do you choose the vulnerable fighter, or the invulnerable one?

I can keep going…but hopefully you get the picture.

Yes they are in WvWvW. Sorry, but it’s broken.

Ron.4920:

Loading, It is a boxing match so both fighters are in the same weight class, and around the same skill.

Sorry Kurow, but the deconstruction argument style is not one I enjoy engaging in.

Just stop with your boxing analogy. It doesn’t work. You are taking one aspect of a profession in a game and giving it to one human being and not giving anything to the other fighter from any other professions. Even if you did it would be useless because every profession has tons of abilities and traits.

Dying to burst thieves is a huge L2P issue in GW2. Burst thieves have their place in a organized team but that’s it. On their own they are only good at cleaning up on bad players.

Burst is only a problem when there is no counter to perma stealth in WvWvW. You can’t have both at the same time. Don’t trot out the use aoe and dodge nonsense, they aren’t effective counters. Tab target doesn’t work either, sorry.

The culling bug gives thieves much higher than intended advantages. It’s that simple.

Ron.4920:

Loading, It is a boxing match so both fighters are in the same weight class, and around the same skill.

So, in otherwords, your argument is extremely biased, ignoring all factors other than stealth.

Okay…

Columba.9730:

Yes they are in WvWvW. Sorry, but it’s broken.

No, they aren’t.

…and please tell me you aren’t the same one from Aion.

Ron.4920:

Sorry Kurow, but the deconstruction argument style is not one I enjoy engaging in.

I wouldn’t either if the argument presented contradicted what I was trying to complain about.

Columba.9730:

Burst is only a problem when there is no counter to perma stealth in WvWvW. You can’t have both at the same time. Don’t trot out the use aoe and dodge nonsense, they aren’t effective counters. Tab target doesn’t work either, sorry.

The culling bug gives thieves much higher than intended advantages. It’s that simple.

Culling is NOT a stealth only issue. It’s the same as me crying about a zerg appearing right on top of me due to culling. Stealth is NOT the issue.

If you wanna cry about culling, take it somewhere else more appropriate. Thief sub-forum is not where it belongs.

Kurow.6973:

Except the thief isn’t invisible all the time, and neither are they the only class that can stealth.

Warrior has 80% MORE base HP than thief all the time,while also dealing tons of damage,but hey what do i know…

Its not an Argument Rottaran, I clearly stated its a hypothetical situation. More of a joke really, some people get it, some people don’t.

and let the backpedaling begin.

“Lets just imagine this hypothetical situation.” Its right there at the top, no back pedaling involved.

Ron.4920:

“Lets just imagine this hypothetical situation.” Its right there at the top, no back peddling involved.

Blackgoat what is backpedaling, are you a florist?

He’s someone who’s correct. Your florist joke only works if he spelled it “back petal”, and “back peddling” implies that there’s some sort of sale of backs occurring.

Kurow.6973:

Columba.9730:

Yes they are in WvWvW. Sorry, but it’s broken.

No, they aren’t.

…and please tell me you aren’t the same one from Aion.

Ron.4920:

Sorry Kurow, but the deconstruction argument style is not one I enjoy engaging in.

I wouldn’t either if the argument presented contradicted what I was trying to complain about.

Columba.9730:

Burst is only a problem when there is no counter to perma stealth in WvWvW. You can’t have both at the same time. Don’t trot out the use aoe and dodge nonsense, they aren’t effective counters. Tab target doesn’t work either, sorry.

The culling bug gives thieves much higher than intended advantages. It’s that simple.

Culling is NOT a stealth only issue. It’s the same as me crying about a zerg appearing right on top of me due to culling. Stealth is NOT the issue.

If you wanna cry about culling, take it somewhere else more appropriate. Thief sub-forum is not where it belongs.

Because they have stealth, thieves disproportionately benefit from the culling bug. Either the culling bug must get fixed or stealth must be adjusted. ASAP.

backpedaling is this:
topic title: “this is unfair”. no indication of joking in first post
later in topic after everyone calls him out: “oh it was just a joke”

I don’t understand why they even cull in the first place. Instead of culling the player completely, send a scaled down version. I’d rather see a generic stick figure with “THIEF” plastered across the face than be attacked by an invisible opponent (that doesn’t get revealed)

or even simpler: If a player is culled from your client, you should also get culled from theirs. not a total fix, but it certainly helps

Looks like I looked up the wrong definition for a word. I know this is what you guys live for, to be right about anything regardless of how mundane it is.

backpedaling is this:
topic title: “this is unfair”. no indication of joking in first post
later in topic after everyone calls him out: “oh it was just a joke”

Called the guy out? Considering that I wrote the analogy I have the right to call it a joke. In WvW though it is not a joke, and thousands more players will quite, because of stealth.

These forums are like a bunch of kids in a locker room they don’t care who fights they just want someone to fight about anything.

uh yeah
why should they care about who they fight?

Anyway, if there’s something I disagree with, I’m going to say so (if I feel like it). That’s all there is to it.

Ron.4920:

“Lets just imagine this hypothetical situation.” Its right there at the top, no back pedaling involved.

Ach, so … it has no relevance to the thief profession in gw2 and is actually off-topic for this forum. Shall we ask the moderators to move it then?

These forums are a hard place to visit. I’m so very glad they do exist though, so you are all not out in the real world where you might do some real damage to other people. Its good that there is a place to contain people like you.

Good bye.

Main problem is that other than the mesmer, no other class has a way to break targeting as early and often as the thief.

CrazyAce.3842:

Main problem is that other than the mesmer, no other class has a way to break targeting as early and often as the thief.

but they are balanced that way. . .so it’s not a problem

look, if they had heavy armor and as much base HP as a warrior and still do that kind of burst with stealth, then i agree. however it’s not like that and they are balanced with stealth in mind.

take away stealth and then be prepared for 20k+ heartseekers to make up for it

Just a little background – I have played thief since headstart and have mostly been burst, but dabbled in stealth/venoms. So I’m mostly d/d and shortbow.

Here is how I counter a stealth/condition thief.

With d/d, I spam Tab to target and as soon as he is visible, #2 to leap to him and auto-attack or CnD, dodge, spam Tab again when he goes invis. Always keep moving.

With sb, I cluster-bomb every couple seconds in area. Maybe a poison, and auto-attack anything in the area including NPC’s since arrow bounces even to an invisible enemy. Always keep moving.

I will use the invis heal utility and shadow refuge to stealth when I can to try to get a free attack on him.

MOST of the time, I down the other thief. Sometimes I don’t. I am not a super-skilled player, just use the skills I know how to.

I don’t know what to tell you to do to beat it with another class since I don’t play other classes much. But this build CAN be beat and is beaten 1 vs 1 all the time.

Anyway, that is what I do and maybe it will help. Good luck.

As a burst thief, my enemies are controls. Stuns, immobilize, knock-downs, pulls. Any of these at the wrong time and I have used my initiative and am pretty much done for. I have fought several opponents that use these well and kill me.

Again, sometimes I win vs an experienced player, sometimes I don’t. Just from my perspective, it seems about even.

Culling only occurs in zerg situations anyway, are you a zergling?

Can the fighter place down magical circles that destroy the other boxer’s hp?

Adaneshade.2409:

Culling only occurs in zerg situations anyway, are you a zergling?

so it’s ok that thieves remain stealthed in zergs? wow, great logic there. BTW it happens everywhere in wvw. try again.

Fisher.8290:

As a burst thief, my enemies are controls. Stuns, immobilize, knock-downs, pulls. Any of these at the wrong time and I have used my initiative and am pretty much done for. I have fought several opponents that use these well and kill me.

Again, sometimes I win vs an experienced player, sometimes I don’t. Just from my perspective, it seems about even.

That’s how I win against thieves in sPVP. I chain-stun mercilessly with my Warrior. It’s funny to make a thief panic and hide in stealth and run because I have more than twice his health and toughness. (Meaning he can’t burst me down before I chain stun him.) :P

I’m an Asura d/d + d/p thief. P/P thieves are really easy to stop. As an Asuran thief I use my racial Technobabble on them.. best racial in game (for me and my burst dmg). This stops them for 2 seconds. I also have my pistol which grants headshots and my elite is Basilisk Venom.

The other night before I started using Technobabble exclusively I was using haste and still never had a problem with p/p thieves without the extra interrupt, I even won a 1v2 against two p/p thieves. You have to read their body language see which way they’re going to try to dodge and keep attacking.

In my opinion invisibility should have never been ntroduced to guild wars. guild wars 1 had assasins that did not need invisibility. Shadow stepping was enough and the class was balanced. Inbisibility on its own is not uncounterable on its own, but when combined with shadowstepping and high mobility it makes for some op situations.

It makes me sad in general that some guy developing the game had a “me too” mentality and hopped on the invisibility wagon, where almost every new game coming out had invisibility because “its cool to have it and be a ninja” I wish i knew who that person was so I could flood that person’s mail with pictures of sad animals :/

Penguin.5197:

In my opinion invisibility should have never been ntroduced to guild wars. guild wars 1 had assasins that did not need invisibility. Shadow stepping was enough and the class was balanced. Inbisibility on its own is not uncounterable on its own, but when combined with shadowstepping and high mobility it makes for some op situations.

The comparison between GW Assassin and GW2 Thief is not correct(not to say directly stupid).Here is why:
1.In GW1 Assassin have next to best armor (70,only Warrior have 80).You might argue that here medium armor is next to best,but it’s not near as good as a tool of defense as it was in GW1.
2.In GW all classes have same base HP.Here thief have 8000 less base hp than Warrior for example.
3.In GW1 you can choose from up to ~300 skills,including the secondary profession.Whit 300 skills to choose,it is much more easy to “scramble” a potent build.
Also in GW1 players have access to numerous healing abilitites w/o cooldown.
4.In GW Assassin have access to many invulnerabilites,here we can only dream of them.
5.This leave us with the two Usual Suspects:Stealth and Mobility.Many people wants one of them nerfed.Some people wants both of them nerfed,Or removed….
Meanwhile,while those people are busy whining,the decent players are getting good,the good players are getting much better!

In gw1 thieves never got perma stealth. Case closed

Columba.9730:

In gw1 thieves never got perma stealth. Case closed

Nothing is closed.Let me post only 2 of the Assassins defense skills in GW1:
http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Critical_Defenses
http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Flashing_Blades

Those two skills,combined,provide the assassin with virtual perma-blocking damage.
And those are just a 2 from hundreds of choices…

ZLE.8293:

The comparison between GW Assassin and GW2 Thief is not correct(not to say directly stupid).Here is why:
1.In GW1 Assassin have next to best armor (70,only Warrior have 80).You might argue that here medium armor is next to best,but it’s not near as good as a tool of defense as it was in GW1.
2.In GW all classes have same base HP.Here thief have 8000 less base hp than Warrior for example.
3.In GW1 you can choose from up to ~300 skills,including the secondary profession.Whit 300 skills to choose,it is much more easy to “scramble” a potent build.
Also in GW1 players have access to numerous healing abilitites w/o cooldown.
4.In GW Assassin have access to many invulnerabilites,here we can only dream of them.
5.This leave us with the two Usual Suspects:Stealth and Mobility.Many people wants one of them nerfed.Some people wants both of them nerfed,Or removed….
Meanwhile,while those people are busy whining,the decent players are getting good,the good players are getting much better!

I have no doubt that if thieves were released without invisibility, some of these points would have been fixed accordingly, such as instead giving them more invulnerabilites in place of their current stealth skills or something similar, Or giving them higher base hp while still having the high mobility and feel of an assassin/thief.

To me it is a shame they didn’t go this way but invisibility will always be part of this game now and nothing can be done about it.

Columba.9730:

Adaneshade.2409:

Culling only occurs in zerg situations anyway, are you a zergling?

so it’s ok that thieves remain stealthed in zergs? wow, great logic there. BTW it happens everywhere in wvw. try again.

Actually, I have tested this extensively and confirmed by asking enemies after fights……5v5 and smaller fights experience no culling. If there is a zerg nearby though (near enough to be trying to load on screen) then, yes culling becomes an issue. That however affects EVERY class, not just the thief. You simply can’t see half the enemy zerg.

Culling IS a major issue. But, as I said, only affects the zerglings. Most of the complaints vs thieves have been in 1v1 roaming situations where culling is just a weak attempt at an excuse.

Penguin.5197:

To me it is a shame they didn’t go this way but invisibility will always be part of this game now and nothing can be done about it.

For me it’s not shame,that they did something different.If i wanted to play GW1,i would
go and play GW1.Also if you find Thief too different than Assassin,i wonder what you will say about Mesmer…Appart from name and the domino they have literally nothing in common

Adaneshade.2409:

Columba.9730:

Adaneshade.2409:

Culling only occurs in zerg situations anyway, are you a zergling?

so it’s ok that thieves remain stealthed in zergs? wow, great logic there. BTW it happens everywhere in wvw. try again.

Actually, I have tested this extensively and confirmed by asking enemies after fights……5v5 and smaller fights experience no culling. If there is a zerg nearby though (near enough to be trying to load on screen) then, yes culling becomes an issue. That however affects EVERY class, not just the thief. You simply can’t see half the enemy zerg.

Culling IS a major issue. But, as I said, only affects the zerglings. Most of the complaints vs thieves have been in 1v1 roaming situations where culling is just a weak attempt at an excuse.

This.

The current incantation of the “single perma stealth” thief is one completely made up on the forums. It is a plague of the mind that carrys no actual relevance in game. It was created from forum mob mentality and allowed to grow because of the C/D thief spammers that would troll ppl from taking supply camps. THAT was the only time where a “perm stealth” (even though they were never really permanent) could have been linked to culling.

This spec during its prime helped give rise to this now uber-villian “perma stealth thief” who is never seen but must be there lurking in the shadows because, y’know, you read about it on the forums…

in Tekken, you can play 1 character, in Tekken Tag you can play 2, different games stop comparing gw1 with gw2

Two boxers enter the ring. One can turn invisible. The other creates a fireball the size of the ring every time be punches. Yeah, totally bet on the invisible one, THAT sounds like a smart bet.

Why does it matter, why did you post, you already said in another post you are leaving the game. Good-bye.

Look at the date Nim, this was posted yesterday. Before I decided to just say to hell with GW.

Ron.4920:

Look at the date Nim, this was posted yesterday. Before I decided to just say to hell with GW.

My daughter plays a game called poptropica, you should check it out.

Ron.4920:

Look at the date Nim, this was posted yesterday. Before I decided to just say to hell with GW.

Good…then stop trolling the forums.

Who is trolling who now? Are you able to stop even without the last word?

Anyone who doesn’t think that there are many jerks in MMO games has only to spend a few minutes browsing the WoW forums to have their opinion shattered. Almost every honest inquiry or suggestion is followed by page after page of insulting comments about spec, gear, sexual orientation, or certain exploits with the poster’s mother.

There are those who attempt to wade in and actually provide constructive comments or answers, but the deluge of rude and insulting comments is usually enough to scare off all but the most hardy of posters.

I don’t know what’s worse, the fact that people are actually so deluded as to think that insulting someone’s in-game character is somehow personally degrading or that people actually take these insults to heart.

It’s a game. Who cares if you don’t like the way I have spec’d my Druid or that I don’t have the free time to spend grinding reputation to obtain that rare companion pet? Like the majority of players, I am here to have a good time, not to impress some self-appointed authority with nothing better to do than scour the armory for reasons to criticize people.

The reality is, these so-called jerks are a very small minority of the total population of any given game. Most people are helpful, normal, well-balanced individuals just looking to get a group together and take down some objective that would be impossible to tackle alone.

Stiv.1820:

Dying to burst thieves is a huge L2P issue in GW2. Burst thieves have their place in a organized team but that’s it. On their own they are only good at cleaning up on bad players.

and they are doing a great job killing noobs that later come crying on forum for thief nerfs.

Ron.4920:

Who is trolling who now? Are you able to stop even without the last word?

Anyone who doesn’t think that there are many jerks in MMO games has only to spend a few minutes browsing the WoW forums to have their opinion shattered. Almost every honest inquiry or suggestion is followed by page after page of insulting comments about spec, gear, sexual orientation, or certain exploits with the poster’s mother.

There are those who attempt to wade in and actually provide constructive comments or answers, but the deluge of rude and insulting comments is usually enough to scare off all but the most hardy of posters.

I don’t know what’s worse, the fact that people are actually so deluded as to think that insulting someone’s in-game character is somehow personally degrading or that people actually take these insults to heart.

It’s a game. Who cares if you don’t like the way I have spec’d my Druid or that I don’t have the free time to spend grinding reputation to obtain that rare companion pet? Like the majority of players, I am here to have a good time, not to impress some self-appointed authority with nothing better to do than scour the armory for reasons to criticize people.

The reality is, these so-called jerks are a very small minority of the total population of any given game. Most people are helpful, normal, well-balanced individuals just looking to get a group together and take down some objective that would be impossible to tackle alone.

Do you know what troll means?…and in what context it is possible to use it?

Adaneshade.2409:

Columba.9730:

Adaneshade.2409:

Culling only occurs in zerg situations anyway, are you a zergling?

so it’s ok that thieves remain stealthed in zergs? wow, great logic there. BTW it happens everywhere in wvw. try again.

Actually, I have tested this extensively and confirmed by asking enemies after fights……5v5 and smaller fights experience no culling. If there is a zerg nearby though (near enough to be trying to load on screen) then, yes culling becomes an issue. That however affects EVERY class, not just the thief. You simply can’t see half the enemy zerg.

Culling IS a major issue. But, as I said, only affects the zerglings. Most of the complaints vs thieves have been in 1v1 roaming situations where culling is just a weak attempt at an excuse.

This is not my experience at all. I see it everywhere in WvWvW. Secondly, even if it did only affect the people in large groups, it’s still broken.