Guild Wars 2

Let me start off by saying that I’m not trying to bash BV or say it should be removed or anything like that, rather I’m genuinely curious as to whether people feel that with all the recent changes/nerfs/complete overhauls of elite skills that have happened recently if they still believe BV stacks up to what other professions have in terms of stuns and elites.

Let’s start with what Basilisk Venom is now:

Basilisk Venom: Basilisk Venom (30 s): Your attacks turn foes to stone.
Stun: 1s
Venom Duration: 30s
Cooldown: 40s

Since the June 23rd patch they nerfed BV from a 1.5 sec duration down to a 1 sec duration apparently because they “buffed” it by giving it 2 charges baseline, now this is largely wasted because BV; unlike other stuns inflicts a unique condition called petrification which does not stack in duration, meaning the second stack of BV is wasted if you attack the same target twice. The only thing this really improves is the chances of getting a stun off on a target if they have aegis or evade the first stack.

As per the wiki:
- The venom is still used if an attack is blocked, evaded, obstructed, negated by Blind, or if the target has Invulnerability or Defiance.

- This is currently the only skill accessible to players normally that inflicts petrification.

- Petrification counts as a stun for stun breaker skill purposes, but does not count as a stun for stacking purposes.

In the past BV used to be the only stun available in game that was able to stun/interrupt bosses and champions with defiance which gave it a use in some PvE scenarios, It also used to be the only stun in the game that couldn’t be removed with a stun-break. Back then both of these things combined were used to justify the skills “elite” status but since then both of these “features” have been patched out; being cited as bugs despite having existed since launch.

With it’s inability to stack and it’s very short duration, currently it’s little more then an elite interrupt with a cast time, a 40 second CD and the ability to fail completely if you miss/get blocked/are blinded/get dodged.

This leads me to wonder if the majority of thieves continue to run this skill because it is currently the only elite that is viable in single target/PvP encounters since Dagger Storm only really works well if there is 5+ targets tightly grouped up and Thieves Guild is.. well it’s Thieves Guild, need I say more?

Now I understand that even a 1 second stun can be useful when trying to get off a surprise burst combo and that it’s effectiveness is compounded when running Venomous Aura but should our only viable single target elite be so heavily reliant on venom sharing in order to truly feel “elite”?

Other professions have (IMO) much better stuns that are more reliable, have better cooldowns, are ranged and most importantly aren’t tied to the elite slot but instead to a utility or a weapon skill.

Take the Mesmer’s Signet of Domination for example, a Utility skill that offers 3x the stun duration, 1/4 the cast time and is cast-able at 1200 range in addition to being a signet which means it gives a passive boost, all this with only a 5(s) increase in cooldown over BV (which can be traited down to 36s with a master trait).

So my questions are these:

1.Do you think that Basilisk Venom is currently worthy of its status as an elite skill?
2.If you could, would you rather take a 4th utility over our current elites?
3.Do you only use Basilisk Venom for PvP/WvW because the other options are even more lackluster in single target/small-scale encounters?

I somewhat agree with your assessment, but instead of revoking it’s Elite Skill status, I’d much prefer a slight rebalancing to the skill instead.
What I would propose would be this:
Keep the cast time and 2 charges on activation – these are both integral to the current balance formula they have going (cast time means you can’t interrupt or take advantage of a situation that you were not prepared for, and 2 charges adds the element of mastery, where you need to pick and choose how to appropriately attack enemies).
Add a “slight stacking” to duration, up to a max of between 1.25 and 1.75 seconds. This will make running BV while alone feel a tad more rewarding, and will make BV feel more useful in Venom Share builds when you have to assume that all BV charges will be used up within half a second on the same target.

It would be really nice to see a slight change to BV. It’s a great skill thematically as well as in execution, and it would be a shame to see it fall from favor in the new rising meta.

I don’t see anything wrong with it.

you don’t know venom share!

I never asked for it’s elite status to be revoked, more like.. re-evaluated much like guardians had done to theirs, now guardians see much more varied use of their elites, engineers got much the same treatment. As it stands right now, most thieves only use DS in large groups for AoE, and rarely ever use TG, leaving Basilisk Venom as the go-to skill for WvW/PvP, I’m just merely curious if this is because they feel it truly is powerful or rather it sees use over the others due to having no better alternatives for single combat.

As I said I realize it’s very powerful with venom share the problem I’m having is that it ONLY seems to be powerful with venom share and that only really works when running in a group, if running solo where venom share is useless BV ends up being much less useful compared to the elite/utility abilities of other professions.

One thing that I could see making it more desirable and “elite” without changing how it works would be to, like Pentalic said, allow it limited stacking capability (if both stacks land total duration would be 1.5s, same as before the patch) and add a possible passive effect (not sure what this could be, possibly a small chance to proc a mini-BV acting more like an interrupt?)

That moment when i logged on mes and used current Mantra of Distraction :|

1. looking at spells from other classes with similar effect/role, not really
2. depends on what it could be, but yeah probably
3. yep

didn’t even notice it didn’t stack duration with it’s 2 applications. that is kind of stupid actually especially because of the nature of venoms on triggering on attack damage. i mean, it acts as interrupt so that’s cool but so does steal with daze every 20 seconds but i guess to get the most out of it, you’d have to wait a second for it to expire to hit again with the 2nd BV charge then? Just glancing at some other stun skills, there’s several with almost 1/2 the base CD of the venom with 1 sec stun and that do a LOT more than just stun.

honestly i think the only reason a lot of people use it is because it’s the shortest cd elite and does offer an extra stun to the build which is usually useful, but yeah, looking at BV compared to other similar skills, it is pretty boring especially for an elite.

i was really hoping for reworking of venoms with the 23rd update. I really like the idea of venoms, seems like a very cool design for a way to use a skill and having it primed to use as it CD’s but outside of the poison one and maybe the torment one for condi builds, the rest just don’t seem to offer anything worth dropping another utility skill for, especially since they’re evadable, blockable, etc unless you use an unblockable attack

As far as venom aura goes, yeah it really only shines in groups and even then, as far as like dungeons or stuff goes, the only viable ones are the condition ones. BV and the immobile one won’t work on most boss mobs so unless you know to change them out for certain things, you’ll essentially get into battle with half your skill bar useless. Honestly, I think if they got rid of Venom Aura, as cool as it is, they could actually make the venoms themselves more useful and not have to keep them so underwhelming on high CD to balance for Aura.

For BV (and hell, even the rest of the venoms), perhaps a +damage% while foe is under effect of venom? Or have it weaken them, add vulnerability, anything really. i don’t know. Balancing them around Aura is really holding them back i think.

1. For thief it is an elite only because it sets us up for things like cnd→ backstab or any shadowstep and pw, things like that. As for the recent patch, I honestly hate the change they decided to do to venoms. Simply making 1 trait baseline for all venoms was a poor attempt to help venoms, because they ended up nerfing BV (yes, it lasts less time and its primary goal was to set up burst not tag multiple targets or give us forgiveness for missing. Not a big nerf though, hardly noticable) and DV (before total immobilize was 4 seconds, now its 3 and we don’t have condition duration as a stat from DA anymore so it isn’t going to get better).

2. No, this pvp balance would only go further into turmoil if people could run a 4th utility. They are making attempts to better elite skills so just be patient.

3. Pretty much, BV is the only thing that successfully helps thieves set up burst which is their only strong suit atm. TG dies to easy and is extremely predictable while DD has a nice little surprise for lb rangers it still leaves you extremely vulnerable to melee attacks.

Instead of the “Elite” skills we have now i would like to see a Elite skill that for a short period of time, lets the thief use the number 1 key stealth ability outside of stealth.

This skill would be instant and have a few seconds duration.
Should have a noticable effect like black smoke aura on the thief to let other players know you are using the elite so they can have a chance at stunning you or use evasive actions.

Vilden.3257:

Instead of the “Elite” skills we have now i would like to see a Elite skill that for a short period of time, lets the thief use the number 1 key stealth ability outside of stealth.

This skill would be instant and have a few seconds duration.
Should have a noticable effect like black smoke aura on the thief to let other players know you are using the elite so they can have a chance at stunning you or use evasive actions.

Oh, I like it! Semi-stealth state…

Essence of Darkness:
Transform into a shadow for 6 seconds. Gain all benefits of Stealth. Gain Stability, Resistance, and Protection.

Basically, you are visible, though you are using stealth mechanics. The Revealed effect should be applied for the entirety of the skill so you cannot enter true stealth. However, that does mean that Revealed Training will apply if traited. The traits from Shadow Arts would also be active (if chosen) as well as any other stealth trait (Hidden Killer, Fleet Shadow).

Kageseigi.2150:

Vilden.3257:

Instead of the “Elite” skills we have now i would like to see a Elite skill that for a short period of time, lets the thief use the number 1 key stealth ability outside of stealth.

This skill would be instant and have a few seconds duration.
Should have a noticable effect like black smoke aura on the thief to let other players know you are using the elite so they can have a chance at stunning you or use evasive actions.

Oh, I like it! Semi-stealth state…

---

Essence of Darkness:
Transform into a shadow for 6 seconds. Gain all benefits of Stealth. Gain Stability, Resistance, and Protection.

---

Basically, you are visible, though you are using stealth mechanics. The Revealed effect should be applied for the entirety of the skill so you cannot enter true stealth. However, that does mean that Revealed Training will apply if traited. The traits from Shadow Arts would also be active (if chosen) as well as any other stealth trait (Hidden Killer, Fleet Shadow).

Way too much work, we dont have cds and are initiative based, they’d have to design a new skillset for this to work properly outside our normal stealth skills. Unfortunately won’t happen. Thief is in such a @#$* state, you have to pick 2v1s with teammate or run and cap points, you’re outclassed simple due to all the invuls and survival mechanics other classes have over thieves.

All they need to do is reduce casting time to 1/4 and the duration to 1.5 and it’ll be golden.

Hitsuke.5304:

All they need to do is reduce casting time to 1/4 and the duration to 1.5 and it’ll be golden.

What is it mantra of distortion, 3 stacks of instant daze on demand, and you think basilisk venom should have any cast time in its current form?

It’d be nice if petrification actually meant something in terms of pvp. You can freeze someone with frost bow #5 and no matter their stun breaker, they are frozen.

For thief it is an elite because of how dangerous our burst can be but at the same time, many other professions have been brought to be on par if not better. I think they should make petrification work like freeze, it cannot be broken. Also they should revert the baseline residual venom affecting BV and just make it the old 1.5 seconds. It helped a lot more than having a reapplication only to be nerfed in duration because the math-matician in the balance team got scared of what it could lead to rather than actually testing it.

How about,

Basilik Venom: Your next strike petrifies your enemy. Duration 1.5 seconds. and do not allow stun breakers to remove this effect, only stability can prevent it

That there would be, imho, a worthy “elite” skill. With how venoms work and how petrification is just a fancy term for stun, I don’t really think its great but it does help.

AegisFLCL.7623:

Way too much work, we dont have cds and are initiative based, they’d have to design a new skillset for this to work properly outside our normal stealth skills. Unfortunately won’t happen. Thief is in such a @#$* state, you have to pick 2v1s with teammate or run and cap points, you’re outclassed simple due to all the invuls and survival mechanics other classes have over thieves.

Ah, I don’t know. I wouldn’t mind being able to use stealth skills (Backstab, etc.) for 6 seconds straight. That alone would be a nice feature for an elite utility. Basically, just flip the “stealth switch” on for 6 seconds. Shouldn’t be much work. The Stability, Protection, and Resistance are just a bonus to make it more survivable.

Hehe, here’s even another bonus to throw into the mix… infinite dodges while the effect is active. Other professions have complete invulnerability, so why would this be too much? Plus, it would mean the thief can/must choose between being aggressive (backstabing, etc.) and defensive (dodging).

Essence of Darkness:
Transform into a shadow for 6 seconds. Gain all benefits of Stealth. Gain Stability, Resistance, and Protection. Refills Endurance. Dodges use no Endurance during the duration of this effect.

If any of the thief elites need to be redone it’s “Thieves Guild”….

Holy moly…talk about a useless skill. 3 min cd to summon 2 thieves that not only look nothing like you so they dont pull attention off you, even for just half a second to confuse your opponent….but they usually hit for less than 100…..they are like the minions in LoL at the 45 minute mark :P

Kageseigi.2150:

AegisFLCL.7623:

Way too much work, we dont have cds and are initiative based, they’d have to design a new skillset for this to work properly outside our normal stealth skills. Unfortunately won’t happen. Thief is in such a @#$* state, you have to pick 2v1s with teammate or run and cap points, you’re outclassed simple due to all the invuls and survival mechanics other classes have over thieves.

Ah, I don’t know. I wouldn’t mind being able to use stealth skills (Backstab, etc.) for 6 seconds straight. That alone would be a nice feature for an elite utility. Basically, just flip the “stealth switch” on for 6 seconds. Shouldn’t be much work. The Stability, Protection, and Resistance are just a bonus to make it more survivable.

Hehe, here’s even another bonus to throw into the mix… infinite dodges while the effect is active. Other professions have complete invulnerability, so why would this be too much? Plus, it would mean the thief can/must choose between being aggressive (backstabing, etc.) and defensive (dodging).

---

Essence of Darkness:
Transform into a shadow for 6 seconds. Gain all benefits of Stealth. Gain Stability, Resistance, and Protection. Refills Endurance. Dodges use no Endurance during the duration of this effect.

What I believe needs to be implemented is simply more skill options from stealth. Have the #1 from stealth still be based on your equipped main hand, and have a #2 and #3 that possibly give thieves some access to boons which they lack so horribly.

I also think steal should have an alternate effect when a ranged weapon is equipped: summon a shadow copy that mirrors your attacks for 30% of total damage so you’re not forced into melee range 24/7 only to die due to joke health pools, terrible condi cleanse, and continuously nerfed vigor/dodging ability.

Trait lines have such poor synergy across the board, burst and die, or do no damage and struggle to survive. I’m a decent player but there is simply no way to keep up with other classes currently, stealth for thieves is a joke of a defensive mechanism with all the recent nerfs and beneficial traits being scattered through different lines.

Honestly thieves need a signet elite.

Passive: -25% damage
Active: Grants 6 seconds of stab/invuln

T raw.4658:

Honestly thieves need a signet elite.

<insert cool Thief signet name here>
Passive: -25% damage
Active: Grants 6 seconds of stab/invuln

Ha, HAHAHA 6 seconds invuln? Good luck.

Really though, I don’t know if suggestions like these are serious or a joke. I know thief balance right now is a joke but come’on.

It’s utter garbage in PvE. The stun duration should last significantly longer in PvE than it does in PvP.

Luclinraider.2317:

If any of the thief elites need to be redone it’s “Thieves Guild”….

Holy moly…talk about a useless skill. 3 min cd to summon 2 thieves that not only look nothing like you so they dont pull attention off you, even for just half a second to confuse your opponent….but they usually hit for less than 100…..they are like the minions in LoL at the 45 minute mark :P

They simply serve a different purpose. Thieves Guild is great when you’re solo in PvE. They provide very helpful damage mitigation and extra damage for a significant period of time.

Einlanzer.1627:

Luclinraider.2317:

If any of the thief elites need to be redone it’s “Thieves Guild”….

Holy moly…talk about a useless skill. 3 min cd to summon 2 thieves that not only look nothing like you so they dont pull attention off you, even for just half a second to confuse your opponent….but they usually hit for less than 100…..they are like the minions in LoL at the 45 minute mark :P

They simply serve a different purpose. Thieves Guild is great when you’re solo in PvE. They provide very helpful damage mitigation and extra damage for a significant period of time.

lol I like them because they can use scorpion wire for pvp but they r pretty useless

NinjaEd.3946:

T raw.4658:

Honestly thieves need a signet elite.

<insert cool Thief signet name here>
Passive: -25% damage
Active: Grants 6 seconds of stab/invuln

Ha, HAHAHA 6 seconds invuln? Good luck.

Really though, I don’t know if suggestions like these are serious or a joke. I know thief balance right now is a joke but come’on.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Stone
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Endure_Pain

Endure pain can be traited to 5 seconds.

T raw.4658:

NinjaEd.3946:

T raw.4658:

Honestly thieves need a signet elite.

<insert cool Thief signet name here>
Passive: -25% damage
Active: Grants 6 seconds of stab/invuln

Ha, HAHAHA 6 seconds invuln? Good luck.

Really though, I don’t know if suggestions like these are serious or a joke. I know thief balance right now is a joke but come’on.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Stone
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Endure_Pain

Endure pain can be traited to 5 seconds.

Invulnerable is stronger than “take no direct damage”. Invulnerable is stability, endure pain, and berkserker stance all in one.

Regardless thief is the least likely candidate to ever get something like invulnerability without some major sacrifice.