Guild Wars 2

This is coming from a non-DareDevil Thief.
Is Stealth too expensive to be competitive in combat?

Perhaps I am too aggressive in my engagements, but I feel very limited in my opportunities to enter into Stealth and still remain effective in combat.

This is especially true with Dagger/Pistol, costing 9 out of my 12/15 initiative for only 3 seconds of Stealth without stacking.
Blinding Powder costs a utility slot and also has a 40-second cooldown for only 3 seconds of Stealth.

Cloak and Dagger seems much better, though Sword/Dagger isn’t meant so much for Stealth, and Dagger/Dagger lacks shadowstepping gap closers.

I like the idea of Shadow’s Embrace and Shadow’s Rejuvenation, but I very rarely run with Shadow Arts because of my Stealthing woes. For me, I seem to be able to escape danger better with an Infiltrator’s Arrow to create distance than a Black Powder+Heartseeker combo… and after the Infiltrator’s Arrow, I don’t have enough initiative left to Stealth anyway. Not to mention I feel weak without Critical Strikes.

So what are your tips on using Stealth to gain the most benefits while also remaining effective in a fight? Thanks! :-)

This is why I suggest Anet to please give an F3 stealth skill to Thief. Basically a profession skill, an F3 skill. Grants stealth for 3s on a 30s CD

Yes thief has too lil stealth

The feeling comes from the fact that they never gave us back the " gain 3 initiative on entering stealth " trait we used to have.

it’s pretty obvious arenanet has been shawing stealth from thief over the years, so its not totally unexpected. Even outside of Daredevil they’re pushing us into being a dodging / shadowstepping character more than a stealthy one.

The less of it the better imho.

The big issue the thief has is that once it loses stealth, the class as a whole performs very poorly, and since stealth is tied to initiative, once the thief loses initiative (and stealth) it just does even worse.

I’d rather see other classes’ access to stealth nerfed than ours buffed, and then give the thief a proper way a play without depending on stealth (see Deadeye ES suggestion).

Asking for more power and power in stealth/access to stealth will not solve the problems with the class or the issues surrounding stealth.

Anet hasn’t been shawing stealth from the thief. They’ve been removing the gimmick of permastealth from 1 set. Only reason everyone feels forced into being a dodgy character is because DD is op right now in comparison to base thief. Once everything is toned down stealth play will be a thing again for those who want to use it. Acro needed a buff and so they gave it one but that’s not even enough to force people into an evasive playstyle. It’ll get better with time, just gonna have to wait and see if anet realizes all the changes they have to make in the next patch.

f3 stealth is not needed as we have plenty of ways to stealth and it would add unnecessary tools into the game that they have to balance.

From my experience stealthing is not too expensive within combat depending on how you use it. If you try to spam it all the time in a permastealth attempt then yes it is expensive but every now and again for repositioning it works just fine and if you use a few leaps through it you have time to regain some initiative before you reopen. SA offers ini regen so that should make things easier and then you are free to take trickery and cs

Edit: Deceiver, I’ve been trying for a long time to limit stealth to only thief. Maybe you’ll have more luck than me getting people to realize it’s a good solution.

Depends on your build. Cloak and Dagger is very effective, as long as you don’t miss/get blinded/blocked.

I will admit that stealth is much less available without shadow arts (deception skill % recharge reduction + stealth on steal helps a lot with maintaining stealth).

Stealth is defensive, so builds that use blind (D/P) or dodge (staff for DD, sword builds) will need stealth less and probably not take the shadow arts line.

DeceiverX.8361:

The big issue the thief has is that once it loses stealth, the class as a whole performs very poorly, and since stealth is tied to initiative, once the thief loses initiative (and stealth) it just does even worse.

I believe that’s the main issue. With a non-DareDevil Thief, most survivability is tied to Shadow Arts. And a lot of Stealth is tied to initiative. Trickery is almost required for the increased initiative.

I suppose That’s why I usually never run with Shadow Arts… because I already have issues dealing enough damage to be effective with the current initiative pool. I do wish initiative would recharge one weapon swap.

Stealth is not expensive if you run TR (which is own issue, since it makes TR mandatory), the issue is scrappers and revs spamming revealed off CD. Dodge they say, cool story, just another thing on the list you need to dodge vs those classes that can literary 2 shot you with anything they fart around them that is why DD became a must since they actually do have enough dodges (sup 6).

On top of it backstab is a joke given the effort it takes to land proper one. Protection, dmg reduction traits and weakness were handled out to other classes like candy so even if you execute perfect backstab it will probably do like 600 dmg (hello revs).

i only use stealth if i am engaging or leaving never well fighting.

Stealth is really strong as an opener or escape, you wouldn’t use it in a fight though, unless you play a trapper thief ofc.

I’d die for a trait that gave 1s of stealth every 5 seconds continually. (Grand master trait obviously) this would be great for confusing enemies, but still not OP because of the short duration.

It just feels strange playing PvP after spending time in WvW, where reveal debuff is 4s and the latter 3s.

Ways to get more stealth without gimping a build with SA:

-Use blinding powder in a smoke field for 6s of stealth (it’s also a blast finisher)
-Use bound through smoke field (it’s a leap finisher)
-Use traited channeled vigor to refill endurance previously used to stack stealth for more stealth stacking

In other words, we can stack more stealth and stack it more easily than ever before – provided you take Daredevil.

A simple solution that might not be too OP. Add another buff to the Preparedness trait;

Initiative recharges 20% faster.

Since almost (I’m guessing a lot of ) thieves take Trickery primarily for that trait, it wouldn’t be a bad idea or too OP to add something like that to the trait line.

Razi.6031:

A simple solution that might not be too OP. Add another buff to the Preparedness trait;

Initiative recharges 20% faster.

Since almost (I’m guessing a lot of ) thieves take Trickery primarily for that trait, it wouldn’t be a bad idea or too OP to add something like that to the trait line.

This promotes camping stealth and effectively replaces Rejuv, so I’m going to have to disagree with it entirely.

DeceiverX.8361:

This promotes camping stealth

Hmm, random new thought how to provide access to Stealth for combat without actually camping. Perhaps it is OP, but in this day and age, who knows?

Merge Shadow’s Embrace with one of Shadow Arts’ minor traits. Replace its Major Adept trait with a new one…

Shadow’s Fury
At the successful completion of a melee weapon’s Auto-Attack chain, grant Stealth for 0.5 seconds. (Is not affected by Meld with Shadows)

It would be a Major trait so it would be a player’s choice to use or not. Stealth only lasts for half a second, with the main purpose for it to provide access to a weapon’s Stealth attack during combat without having to spend so much time, initiative, or utilities to set up for a single attack, though it would also cure one condition because of Shadow’s Embrace. It would be rewarding aggressive play, not passive play. The half second time frame should be just enough to cast the Stealth Attack animation. It has a built-in cooldown due to Revealed.

Alternatives:
1. Stealth lasts for a full second to give the player more options. He can position himself for a better Stealth Attack if needed (Backstab/Tactical Strike). Or he can use the opportunity for other actions such as escaping the fight or activating a venom or trap.

2. Do not grant Stealth at all. Simply make the next Auto-Attack a Stealth Attack (Backstab/Tactical Strike/Hook Strike). If not used within a limited time (1 to 5 seconds), the chain resets to normal. This trait could be placed into Critical Strikes or Trickery instead of Shadow Arts. Because it does not grant Stealth, there would be no Revealed-based cooldown. It would either have to be given a cooldown (which could get confusing) or the Stealth Attack would simply become an extra attack of every chain (which could definitely be OP).
2b. In addition to 2, you could allow the Stealth Attack opportunity to carry over if you swap weapons (e.g. switching from Dagger main-hand to Shortbow would allow you to use Surprise Shot). The time limit would still be in place, however. Note: This would happen naturally in the original trait that does grant Stealth.

Yes.

CnD costs 6 initiative with short range, telegraphed animation, short stealth, and mediocre damage.

Black Powder and HS costs at least 9 initiative for 3 seconds, although with Daredevil the expense for D/P to stealth is less costly, so I’d say it balances out for daredevils, at least. But that’s a different problem for base thieves.

Blinding Powder is a 40 second cooldown 3 second AoE stealth…40 seconds is way too high for that imho. Bring it down to 30, or hell even 20. It’s literally just a twitch stealth.

HiS needs a cooldown reduced and torment cleanse.

Basically all of thief stealth is way too expensive. For CnD, it needs to be less risky/costly or the payoff needs to be higher, or a combination of both for a happy medium. For black powder HS, I honestly don’t know. A buff to the combo would be even more powerful for daredevils, because they already have extra access, so not sure what to suggest about that.

Not for D/P no, if is too expensive your doing it wrong!

Nocta.5274:

The feeling comes from the fact that they never gave us back the " gain 3 initiative on entering stealth " trait we used to have.

it’s pretty obvious arenanet has been shawing stealth from thief over the years, so its not totally unexpected. Even outside of Daredevil they’re pushing us into being a dodging / shadowstepping character more than a stealthy one.

This is why I quit the game and just visit the forums to see if Anet finally stopped kittenting on Thieves. Though like every bad developer they blurred the lines between professions to the point where many of them lost what made them unique. I honestly believe they need to revamp every profession.

DeceiverX.8361:

Razi.6031:

A simple solution that might not be too OP. Add another buff to the Preparedness trait;

Initiative recharges 20% faster.

Since almost (I’m guessing a lot of ) thieves take Trickery primarily for that trait, it wouldn’t be a bad idea or too OP to add something like that to the trait line.

This promotes camping stealth and effectively replaces Rejuv, so I’m going to have to disagree with it entirely.

So It’s ok for scrappers to stealth camp to oblivion but God forbid I stealth camp for 3 seconds to set things up or buy time for lets say a cooldown on my heal.

Thieves don’t stealth camp anymore… that was good when we got might in stealth from SA.

EDIT: And don’t get me started on mesmers camping stealth where it is an actual problem as they can portal everyone in to inner castle with ease.

Thieves camping stealth pff don’t make me laugh

Razi.6031:

DeceiverX.8361:

Razi.6031:

A simple solution that might not be too OP. Add another buff to the Preparedness trait;

Initiative recharges 20% faster.

Since almost (I’m guessing a lot of ) thieves take Trickery primarily for that trait, it wouldn’t be a bad idea or too OP to add something like that to the trait line.

This promotes camping stealth and effectively replaces Rejuv, so I’m going to have to disagree with it entirely.

So It’s ok for scrappers to stealth camp to oblivion but God forbid I stealth camp for 3 seconds to set things up or buy time for lets say a cooldown on my heal.

Thieves don’t stealth camp anymore… that was good when we got might in stealth from SA.

And by this logic you think it’s okay for the thief to do the same.

I disagree with it on principle and firmly believe scrappers and most other classes need drastically cut access to stealth, and thieves’ access should also be made no longer permanent.

Because I’d rather see proper mechanics development on all classes than ones which promote passive and repetitive styles of play due to an overwhelming surge of power creep.

DeceiverX.8361:

Razi.6031:

DeceiverX.8361:

Razi.6031:

A simple solution that might not be too OP. Add another buff to the Preparedness trait;

Initiative recharges 20% faster.

Since almost (I’m guessing a lot of ) thieves take Trickery primarily for that trait, it wouldn’t be a bad idea or too OP to add something like that to the trait line.

This promotes camping stealth and effectively replaces Rejuv, so I’m going to have to disagree with it entirely.

So It’s ok for scrappers to stealth camp to oblivion but God forbid I stealth camp for 3 seconds to set things up or buy time for lets say a cooldown on my heal.

Thieves don’t stealth camp anymore… that was good when we got might in stealth from SA.

And by this logic you think it’s okay for the thief to do the same.

I disagree with it on principle and firmly believe scrappers and most other classes need drastically cut access to stealth, and thieves’ access should also be made no longer permanent.

Because I’d rather see proper mechanics development on all classes than ones which promote passive and repetitive styles of play due to an overwhelming surge of power creep.

My suggestion wasn’t to add more time in stealth but a small 20% ( let’s say 15% also ) increase to initiative regen. I never mentioned camping stealth. You brought up this non issue into my suggestion. I am still wondering how a traited small increase in Ini Regen will make us camp stealth. If anything it would allow us to camp stealth even less because we wont be hiding in stealth to get some Ini back to continue fighting.

You completely derailed my first comment.

Also DecieverX are you a thief main by any chance? You don’t seem to understand the mechanics as they are now. No thief camps stealth anymore. I know loads of thieves that dont even take Shadow Refuge anymore coz of this Revealed Meta, where practically every class can reveal us now. I stopped taking Shadow refuge months ago and never looked back. I also mostly play s/d ( wvw ).

I do main the thief, yes. But I also play primarily WvW, where every class runs stealth if it can. Even DH’s run trapper runes fairly often. Further, the thief not being visible for +1’s in sPvP and carrying as much initiative as possible in a fight is a big boon for the thief and the encounter he’s +1’ing. You seem to neglect that before Daredevil, SA was still taken for the +1 meta build/role; DD, like everything else done poorly in HoT, is power creep which I strictly disagree with.

I again was mostly against this change on principle that it effectively duplicates a grandmaster SA trait in a minor trait in the most-selected/highest-dependency traitline the thief has. All this does is further devalue the SA line and put further emphasis on Trickery, which is something people already think is considered as something which can’t be given up. In essence, it reduces diversity even further by pigeon-holing power into a specific build. This is something we should be trying to avoid at all costs.

As for the “revealed meta” – it’s more along just over-use of the mechanic on popular/already strong builds and skills rather than deliberate player choice to take such abilities with rising access to stealth on more classes (How many rangers ran Sic ‘Em during the period when SA gave might? None. Because it wasn’t worth taking the skill.) – it’s why I created the suggestion for the Deadeye (link in my signature) as a means to shut down the mechanics which shut down the thief, making the class have more leeway in terms of how it plays both in and out of stealth.

Your suggestion is trying to answer power with more power rather than simply suggesting the initial overpowered mechanic is overpowered, and/or a way to more creatively counter it while keeping the dependencies of the build low or encounters more dynamic.

And for that, I disagree with it in its entirety, which is all I said to begin with.

You make some valid points. The only thing I would say, is just that it is laughable to suggest that thieves stealth camp. If a thief is staying in stealth he is equally doing nothing to improve the situation. That was the beef I had with your comment and nothing else.

Thief should be able to toggle stealth on and off, but not while in combat.

Razi.6031:

You make some valid points. The only thing I would say, is just that it is laughable to suggest that thieves stealth camp. If a thief is staying in stealth he is equally doing nothing to improve the situation. That was the beef I had with your comment and nothing else.

Are you familiar with the condi “ghost” thief build?

I main necro and recently made the change to thief because I’m like a kid in a candy store with all this stealth and power.

Thief’s have enough stealth. Think people who have mained thief for so long are just spoiled. Sorry, just my thoughts from the outside converting to the darkside