Guild Wars 2

Now that we know about the Shiro legend, I cannot help feel that Basilisk Venom needs a buff to bring it more in line with the Shiro elite. Lets compare them to highlight what I mean:

Jade Wind has no cooldown, but costs 50 energy (which will recharge well within the 40 seconds it takes BV to recharge).
Basilisk Venom has a 40 second cooldown (untraited).

Jade Wind hits up to 5 enemies.
Basilisk Venom can only hit 1 target per application (maximum of 2 targets).

Jade Wind deals a decent amount of damage to each target.
Basilisk Venom does no damage at all, unless traited for Leeching Venoms.

Jade Wind stuns each target for 3 seconds.
Basilisk Venom stuns for 1 second per application, for a total of 2 seconds if both applications hit the same target.

I know that JW takes a big chunk of energy, and therefore you will need to decide whether it is wise to use it or not at that particular moment, but IMO it still seems more powerful than BV.

With the exception of the short cooldown, I have always felt BV should be a normal utility skill rather than an elite. Now that we have a very silimar (more powerful) version of BV in JW, I feel it is time for a buff to BV. If BV was instant cast and applied 1.5 seconds of stun per application, or 3 applications instead of 2, then I would be happier with it.

So what does everyone else think? Does BV need a buff? Do you think JW should be nerfed instead? Are you ok with JW being a superior version? And if so, how do you justify the extra capabilities of JW?

I do not want this to turn into a ’let’s dis Anet’s balancing skillz’ thread, so please try to keep things constructive and civil. If you think this discussion is a waste of time then don’t waste our time by saying so. Thanks.

BV should perhaps get a nice stack of poison applied. Would 10 stacks of poison be too much

aspirine.5839:

BV should perhaps get a nice stack of poison applied. Would 10 stacks of poison be too much

As we already have a poison venom, how about adding 5 stacks of vulnerability, per application, to BV instead?

Basilisk Venom stuns for 2s only if you wait for the first stun to run off to apply the second charge so it’s kind of worse than a real 2s stun.

Rin.1046:

aspirine.5839:

BV should perhaps get a nice stack of poison applied. Would 10 stacks of poison be too much

As we already have a poison venom, how about adding 5 stacks of vulnerability, per application, to BV instead?

Skale Venom already does vulnerability.

What about a few stacks of Burning? :p

Things like this and how underpowered Staff was during the beta shows that Anet has no conventions or guidelines whatsoever for balancing skills. It’s very, very obvious to anyone even slightly astute that Basilisk Venom is woefully underpowered.

But, there is a reason why it is – because of how well it synergizes with a Backstab build in PvP allowing you to gank someone while preventing them from moving or reacting. Still, that’s not a good enough reason. It very obviously needs to be better than it is.

It’s just another example of how Thief Venoms are poorly designed and how Anet is hilariously bad at balance.

stof.9341:

Rin.1046:

aspirine.5839:

BV should perhaps get a nice stack of poison applied. Would 10 stacks of poison be too much

As we already have a poison venom, how about adding 5 stacks of vulnerability, per application, to BV instead?

Skale Venom already does vulnerability.

What about a few stacks of Burning? :p

Oh yes, forgot about Skale Venom. As much as I would love some way to apply burning for the thief, I think it would cause a lot of complaints

Another idea, how about it removing a boon per application?

I compare BV with that mesmer signet that gives a 3 second stun when activated. How can a thief elite give a one second stun but a second tier signet triple the duration?

Apples to apples Anet is all I want

I agree with your suggestion. Make BV instant cast (really, why are the other venoms instant when the elite isn’t), let it stack duration (it’s currently worse than stun because it can’t stack at all) and do one of the following:

Remove the ability to stun break out of it (used to be that way until nerf)

Add a stack

Change duration to 1.5 seconds per stack

BV used to be instant cast too, on top of “unbreakable”.

On the topic of Karl balance, it IS a matter of balance, and something I guess should just not be commented on.

Who’s fault is it : the dev that tries to maintain some semblance of power level or the one that promotes power creep?

stof.9341:

BV used to be instant cast too, on top of “unbreakable”.

On the topic of Karl balance, it IS a matter of balance, and something I guess should just not be commented on.

Who’s fault is it : the dev that tries to maintain some semblance of power level or the one that promotes power creep?

What power creep are you talking about? The point is that they introduced a skill literally 5 times more powerful than one of the Thief’s elite skills.

You can’t compare one skill between professions. Following your logic mesmer should get something similar to backstab when they attack from stealth because, well, thiefs got backstab.

Yes, Jade Wind seems stronger than Basilisk Venom, but that’s no reason to buff BV. You balance a profession around ALL of their abilities, not just because x got a stronger skill than y. Yes, I believe thiefs needs some buffs (and nerfs for some things aswell), but saying one skill needs a buff because another profession got something stronger means you’re not looking at the whole picture.
Revenant haven’t gone live, they might get crap damage compared to thief when HoT comes, or they might have to rely on that ONE elite for control, where thiefs got plenty of control. You simply cannot say BV needs a buff because a profession, that isn’t even done yet, got one skill that’s stronger.

Rezok.2709:

You can’t compare one skill between professions. Following your logic mesmer should get something similar to backstab when they attack from stealth because, well, thiefs got backstab.

Yes, Jade Wind seems stronger than Basilisk Venom, but that’s no reason to buff BV. You balance a profession around ALL of their abilities, not just because x got a stronger skill than y. Yes, I believe thiefs needs some buffs (and nerfs for some things aswell), but saying one skill needs a buff because another profession got something stronger means you’re not looking at the whole picture.
Revenant haven’t gone live, they might get crap damage compared to thief when HoT comes, or they might have to rely on that ONE elite for control, where thiefs got plenty of control. You simply cannot say BV needs a buff because a profession, that isn’t even done yet, got one skill that’s stronger.

Regardless, I think it’s very easy to argue that Venoms and general, and specifically Basilisk Venom, are just underpowered and poorly designed.

To me it would make way more sense if they just operated like buffs, with proc chances on a longer duration.

Einlanzer.1627:

Jesiah.2457:

…waste of pixels…

This post has a lot of anger, but I can’t say I haven’t had many of the same thoughts.

While I may not always agree with the devs balancing, I have never struggled to be civil, and never felt the need to directly insult others based on things in a computer game. If you’re that angry about a game, I would suggest moving on to something else, even if it is just for the sake of your mental health. Getting that stressed over something so small is not good for you.

What BV has going for it is a low cooldown but that simply not enough for an Elite skill that has at its base 1s stun. Again what occurs here is comparison not made to what other professions get in the way of stuns and where those slotted.

Add to the trait (and it makes a certain amount of sense) slow for 3 secs. Even on recovery from the stun one would think the venom would slow an opponents reactions.

It should also be instant cast. I see no reason for the cast time AND if kept at 1 second it should be stackable. This stacking would include on the suggested slow. Thus two applications would result in a 2 second stun slong with 6 seconds of slow base. Hardly OP when compared to other elite skills.

Rezok.2709:

You can’t compare one skill between professions. Following your logic mesmer should get something similar to backstab when they attack from stealth because, well, thiefs got backstab.

.

The baqckstab is just something that thiefs have because their stealth takes way more risk, it’s basicly the main thing about the thief. Their skills have high risk high damage. And right now mesmer has high damage no risk nuking from orbit.

Chilled to the bone! (Reaper) – stun 2 seconds, chill for 12 seconds, resistance 2 seconds
Jade Winds – stun 3 seconds
Give Necro Chilled to the bone! and nobody blinks an eye, but give Revenant Jade Winds and everyone loses their mind.

Jade Winds – Radius: 600, blockable, easy to evade
Basilisk Venom – The venom is still used if an attack is blocked, evaded, obstructed, negated by Blind, or if the target has Invulnerability or Defiance.

Jade Winds – 50 energy cost
Basilisk Venom – 0 initiative cost

Plus Thief can use Basilisk Venom while in stealth and unload all its initiative on the enemy.

Do you even Thief guys?

Rezok.2709:

You can’t compare one skill between professions. Following your logic mesmer should get something similar to backstab when they attack from stealth because, well, thiefs got backstab.

Bad analogy. Mesmers already have great (ranged AoE) spike damage, so they don’t need backstab. Typically BV gives us a single target stun for 1s (since it doesn’t stack) while jade wind stuns up to 5 targets for 3s each. That’s 15 times as potent with no cooldown. Venomshare helps, but depends on entire team coordination and a gm trait to even gain 1/3 of the effectiveness of one revenant skill. We aren’t asking for thieves to get Jade Wind, just for reasonable buffs to BV (cast time, stacking etc.).

Einlanzer.1627:

Rezok.2709:

You can’t compare one skill between professions. Following your logic mesmer should get something similar to backstab when they attack from stealth because, well, thiefs got backstab.

Yes, Jade Wind seems stronger than Basilisk Venom, but that’s no reason to buff BV. You balance a profession around ALL of their abilities, not just because x got a stronger skill than y. Yes, I believe thiefs needs some buffs (and nerfs for some things aswell), but saying one skill needs a buff because another profession got something stronger means you’re not looking at the whole picture.
Revenant haven’t gone live, they might get crap damage compared to thief when HoT comes, or they might have to rely on that ONE elite for control, where thiefs got plenty of control. You simply cannot say BV needs a buff because a profession, that isn’t even done yet, got one skill that’s stronger.

Regardless, I think it’s very easy to argue that Venoms and general, and specifically Basilisk Venom, are just underpowered and poorly designed.

To me it would make way more sense if they just operated like buffs, with proc chances on a longer duration.

Whether venoms UP depends on the game mode. They are certainly not UP in PvE but then a whole lot of stuff just works in PvE because it easier. The issue with venoms is not that each of the skills UP. It that to make a proper venom build you need more than one and this severely compromises an ability to survive.

I have been working with d/d using venoms and in particular traiting leeching/VA and assassins reward and this build is just about there. With small tweaks to dagger training and Potent poison it will get there.

To the venoms in particular a cooldown drop to 35 seconds is warranted. This will allow less venoms to be traited as they will come ready more quickly allowing the thief other utilities. It might even make Skelk a bit more usable.

All that said the power of a theif using VA in a group can not be ignored and I would rather keep that utility for party support than to see it removed or tweaked downwards because venoms become “too powerful”.

Kidel.2057:

Chilled to the bone! (Reaper) – stun 2 seconds, chill for 12 seconds, resistance 2 seconds
Jade Winds – stun 3 seconds
Give Necro Chilled to the bone! and nobody blinks an eye, but give Revenant Jade Winds and everyone loses their mind.

Jade Winds – Radius: 600, blockable, easy to evade
Basilisk Venom – The venom is still used if an attack is blocked, evaded, obstructed, negated by Blind, or if the target has Invulnerability or Defiance.

Jade Winds – 50 energy cost
Basilisk Venom – 0 initiative cost

Plus Thief can use Basilisk Venom while in stealth and unload all its initiative on the enemy.

Do you even Thief guys?

You say “venom is still used” as if it’s a good thing. If they block evade etc. it consumes the stack without doing anything, rendering BV useless. Also, we comment on Jade Wind because it’s a petrify so we instantly compare it to BV. Just because we aren’t comparing a Necro skill doesn’t mean BV isn’t in a very poor spot. And the energy cost of JW is offset by the fact that it has no cooldown. Get a few revenants on a team and you could chain petrify the entire enemy team theoretically.

Isn’t Basilisk Venom 2 stacks? Plus 1s of cast is to apply the venom to the weapon (like a Mantra skill). You can stun instantly 2 times for 30 seconds after that.

Jade Winds is used too if blocked however. That wasn’t meant as an advantage for BV, that still has the upper hand for the lack of cast time (excluding the one needed to coat the weapon, that you can do before starting the fight)

Rezok.2709:

You can’t compare one skill between professions. Following your logic mesmer should get something similar to backstab when they attack from stealth because, well, thiefs got backstab.

Yes, Jade Wind seems stronger than Basilisk Venom, but that’s no reason to buff BV. You balance a profession around ALL of their abilities, not just because x got a stronger skill than y. Yes, I believe thiefs needs some buffs (and nerfs for some things aswell), but saying one skill needs a buff because another profession got something stronger means you’re not looking at the whole picture.
Revenant haven’t gone live, they might get crap damage compared to thief when HoT comes, or they might have to rely on that ONE elite for control, where thiefs got plenty of control. You simply cannot say BV needs a buff because a profession, that isn’t even done yet, got one skill that’s stronger.

That is a fair comment, and to some degree I agree with you. When the right traits are selected BV can be very strong. But I still believe it needs a buff. Personally I think elite skills should be strong in their base untraited form, and not require traits to make them elite. BV to me seems to be designed that way. With venom sharing BV can be devastating, but it should be able to turn the tide of battle on its own, without traits. JW, untraited, has the potential to turn a fight in your favour. Just picture it, a 5v5 fight is occuring, when all of a sudden all 5 enemies are stunned. Now BV can do this too, but only if traited, which means you are sacrificing something else to do this.

You are right, you cannot really compare one skill to another, because your entire build should also be considered, but when there are so many variables to take into account, the only thing you can be sure about is the capability of each skill.

I guess, instead of comparing JW vs BV, we should consider whether BV deserves its elite status. It seems clear to me JW does, but I am not so sure BV does. At least in its base form.

Kidel.2057:

Chilled to the bone! (Reaper) – stun 2 seconds, chill for 12 seconds, resistance 2 seconds
Jade Winds – stun 3 seconds

Jade Winds – Radius: 600, blockable, easy to evade
Basilisk Venom – The venom is still used if an attack is blocked, evaded, obstructed, negated by Blind, or if the target has Invulnerability or Defiance.

Jade Winds – 50 energy cost
Basilisk Venom – 0 initiative cost

Plus Thief can use Basilisk Venom while in stealth and unload all its initiative on the enemy.

You forgot to mention that CttB has a 120 second cooldown. However, without the snide comments, you do have a point. BV does not cost initiative, and that alone IMO is the only advantage BV has over JW. Is that a big enough advantage? That I am not sure about. Would you want to have a more powerful BV at the cost of some initiative?

Rin.1046:

Kidel.2057:

Chilled to the bone! (Reaper) – stun 2 seconds, chill for 12 seconds, resistance 2 seconds
Jade Winds – stun 3 seconds

Jade Winds – Radius: 600, blockable, easy to evade
Basilisk Venom – The venom is still used if an attack is blocked, evaded, obstructed, negated by Blind, or if the target has Invulnerability or Defiance.

Jade Winds – 50 energy cost
Basilisk Venom – 0 initiative cost

Plus Thief can use Basilisk Venom while in stealth and unload all its initiative on the enemy.

You forgot to mention that CttB has a 120 second cooldown. However, without the snide comments, you do have a point. BV does not cost initiative, and that alone IMO is the only advantage BV has over JW. Is that a big enough advantage? That I am not sure about. Would you want to have a more powerful BV at the cost of some initiative?

Also initiative burst with 2s of stun = insta kill on every class in the game. Nice job balancing.
Thief with stealth, initiative and a 2s stun is really OP. I think that even tank builds would have problems surviving.

You get a lesser stun because you already have too many toys.

Kidel.2057:

Rin.1046:

Kidel.2057:

Chilled to the bone! (Reaper) – stun 2 seconds, chill for 12 seconds, resistance 2 seconds
Jade Winds – stun 3 seconds

Jade Winds – Radius: 600, blockable, easy to evade
Basilisk Venom – The venom is still used if an attack is blocked, evaded, obstructed, negated by Blind, or if the target has Invulnerability or Defiance.

Jade Winds – 50 energy cost
Basilisk Venom – 0 initiative cost

Plus Thief can use Basilisk Venom while in stealth and unload all its initiative on the enemy.

You forgot to mention that CttB has a 120 second cooldown. However, without the snide comments, you do have a point. BV does not cost initiative, and that alone IMO is the only advantage BV has over JW. Is that a big enough advantage? That I am not sure about. Would you want to have a more powerful BV at the cost of some initiative?

Also initiative burst with 2s of stun = insta kill on every class in the game. Nice job balancing.
Thief with stealth, initiative and a 2s stun is really OP. I think that even tank builds would have problems surviving.

You get a lesser stun because you already have too many toys.

You know that the duration doesn’t stack if you attack too fast, right? You don’t actually get 2 seconds most of the time.

And you think wrong about tank builds. They have no problem surviving.

I was talking about Jade Winds used by a thief.
1 seacon od BV is good. 2s would be too much given initiative burst and stealth, plus the fact you can’t see BV coming.

You can even see that Revenant is in Shiro attunement, you can expect JW, even if you don’t see the telegraph.
I should be more worried about the down trait if I were you. 90s icd, but still instant.

To be honest I was surprised about the jade wind elite considering how many nerfs basilisk venom has gotten over time.

At least they could remove the casting time to make it work like all other venoms.

Another thing I never understood is why they decided to make all venoms have the same cooldown instead of different cooldowns so each one could be balanced considering its bigger or smaller cooldown, this could work well with BV making it stronger but decreasing its spammability.

Kidel.2057:

I was talking about Jade Winds used by a thief.
1 seacon od BV is good. 2s would be too much given initiative burst and stealth, plus the fact you can’t see BV coming.

You can even see that Revenant is in Shiro attunement, you can expect JW, even if you don’t see the telegraph.
I should be more worried about the down trait if I were you. 90s icd, but still instant.

Please do not take this the wrong way.

You have no clue on how a thief works and need to stop.

Please roll a thief and play around with it just for a day.

Kidel.2057:

Rin.1046:

Kidel.2057:

Chilled to the bone! (Reaper) – stun 2 seconds, chill for 12 seconds, resistance 2 seconds
Jade Winds – stun 3 seconds

Jade Winds – Radius: 600, blockable, easy to evade
Basilisk Venom – The venom is still used if an attack is blocked, evaded, obstructed, negated by Blind, or if the target has Invulnerability or Defiance.

Jade Winds – 50 energy cost
Basilisk Venom – 0 initiative cost

Plus Thief can use Basilisk Venom while in stealth and unload all its initiative on the enemy.

You forgot to mention that CttB has a 120 second cooldown. However, without the snide comments, you do have a point. BV does not cost initiative, and that alone IMO is the only advantage BV has over JW. Is that a big enough advantage? That I am not sure about. Would you want to have a more powerful BV at the cost of some initiative?

Also initiative burst with 2s of stun = insta kill on every class in the game. Nice job balancing.
Thief with stealth, initiative and a 2s stun is really OP. I think that even tank builds would have problems surviving.

You get a lesser stun because you already have too many toys.

Insta kill on every class? Really? First it’s usually 1s stun because it doesn’t stack, second it can be avoided easily (unless you don’t know how to evade), third even if it succeeds, you can stun break out of it, and fourth no class with decent health and defenses will get insta killed. So basically only other thieves will die, as everyone else has higher health and armor, blocks invuln etc.

This post highlighted all the advantages jade wind has over bv but none of the advantages bv has over jade wind. If your gonna compare two abilities give the complete context please.

Basilisk venom has
1. Two chances to proc on enemies (less chance to be avoided)
2. Is no where near as telegraphed as jade winds
3. Can be proc from a multitude of ranges in a multitude of ways.

The overall utility of basilisk venom is far greater then jade winds hence why it is given a lot of disadvantages. Also on top of the fact that basilisk venom exist on a class that can 100-0 almost any squishy/low health target in that basilisk venom time window with mug from 1200 range.

Also the two abilities don’t even function or occupy the same game play space beyond they both stun(turn people to stone thematically). Jade winds is an aoe wombo combo ability with a large windup time similar to reaper’s chilled to the bone. Basilisk venom is single target focus and can function with no cast time if preset which is the advantage/disadvantage of venoms.

Honestly feels like people saw jade winds and went their ability turns ppl to stone wait ours does that du fuq.

You can’t compare them because Revenant is not Thief.
Thief has more burst damage and stealth. 3s of BV from a stealthed thief would wreak every class in the game.

Thief already has too many toys. BV is just the cherry.
Revenant has nothing.

sebradle.7034:

This post highlighted all the advantages jade wind has over bv but none of the advantages bv has over jade wind. If your gonna compare two abilities give the complete context please.

Basilisk venom has
1. Two chances to proc on enemies (less chance to be avoided)
2. Is no where near as telegraphed as jade winds
3. Can be proc from a multitude of ranges in a multitude of ways.

The overall utility of basilisk venom is far greater then jade winds hence why it is given a lot of disadvantages. Also on top of the fact that basilisk venom exist on a class that can 100-0 almost any squishy/low health target in that basilisk venom time window with mug from 1200 range.

Also the two abilities don’t even function or occupy the same game play space beyond they both stun(turn people to stone thematically). Jade winds is an aoe wombo combo ability with a large windup time similar to reaper’s chilled to the bone. Basilisk venom is single target focus and can function with no cast time if preset which is the advantage/disadvantage of venoms.

Honestly feels like people saw jade winds and went their ability turns ppl to stone wait ours does that du fuq.

True BV has some advantages, but the fact remains it’s a 1s single target stun and it’s an elite skill. How would you feel if mesmers moa elite turned them into a moa for 1 second, but had a 40s cooldown? It just doesn’t feel like an elite skill, it’d be fine as a normal utility.

Neeja.4579:

You can’t compare them because Revenant is not Thief.
Thief has more burst damage and stealth. 3s of BV from a stealthed thief would wreak every class in the game.

Thief already has too many toys. BV is just the cherry.
Revenant has nothing.

This. +1

Plus BV is applied on 2 hits, so it can bypass block and dodge, and can be 900 range.

Zodryn.4216:

True BV has some advantages, but the fact remains it’s a 1s single target stun and it’s an elite skill. How would you feel if mesmers moa elite turned them into a moa for 1 second, but had a 40s cooldown? It just doesn’t feel like an elite skill, it’d be fine as a normal utility.

Yeah my biggest problem with basilisk venom is that is just doesn’t feel like an elite skill as well. But it is still completely functional and does the job I need it to do more often then not you know. Also, moa elite still gives the player the ability to kite (huge disadvantage to the ability).

At the end of the day you cant compare skill to skills in my opinion. You have to compare kits to kits like you would do in a moba. Not every ultimate in League of Legends is exactly equally balanced for instance. Christ some of the strongest champions in League of Legends don’t even have ultimate abilities.

it’s 1s in 2hits, meaning it can’t be blocked easily. Plus you can shot it from 900 range, or apply while in stealth.
if BV was 2s then every class would be destroyed by thief in pvp.

BV on thief can’t even be compared to CB on Reaper, even if both have no energy. Reaper has no burst nor stealth, and that shout has a 120s cd.

With such a high energy cost, the Rev probably isn’t bursting you afterwards; it’s pretty much entirely a support skill. BOTH their utilities and their weapon skills cost energy, so this skill may actually be pretty worthless 1v1.

I’ll believe it’s a problem when we see it in action; Rev has been really underwhelming so far.

A couple of things I haven’t seen anyone mention in this comparison yet…

First, Jade Wind isn’t a skill that can be pre-cast like Basilisk Venom. That means that the Revenant attempting to use it needs to be near his opponents, and has a one-second casting time to deal with, something that can be reacted to and which will have a distinct animation. If I see a Revenant casting Jade Wind, I’m going to dodge it or try to interrupt him. If I see a thief, he’s probably already used Shadow Shot from quite a distance to petrify me before I spotted him, to say nothing of actually approaching in stealth with the venom pre-cast.

The second factor is the Energy system. It costs 50 Energy to cast Jade Wind. That’s half of the maximum resources of the Revenant, resources that he needs to do other things. If the Revenant is using Jade Wind, that’s five seconds of Impossible Odds that he’s giving up, for example. It’s depleting the Energy pool he might need to restore his health with his healing skill. It might even lock out some of his weapon skills for a little bit, as some of them have small Energy costs attached. When a Thief uses Basilisk Venom, it in no way impacts our ability to Shadow Refuge or Shadowstep or Hide in Shadows or Withdraw or Signet of Agility or Heartseeker.

With those factors in mind, the difference in the skills winds up being less glaring.

Zodryn.4216:

Rezok.2709:

You can’t compare one skill between professions. Following your logic mesmer should get something similar to backstab when they attack from stealth because, well, thiefs got backstab.

Bad analogy. Mesmers already have great (ranged AoE) spike damage, so they don’t need backstab. Typically BV gives us a single target stun for 1s (since it doesn’t stack) while jade wind stuns up to 5 targets for 3s each. That’s 15 times as potent with no cooldown. Venomshare helps, but depends on entire team coordination and a gm trait to even gain 1/3 of the effectiveness of one revenant skill. We aren’t asking for thieves to get Jade Wind, just for reasonable buffs to BV (cast time, stacking etc.).

Bad analogy you say? My whole point was, that you cannot compare one skill to another without looking at the profession as a whole. you seem to disagree with me, yet you start speaking of mesmers ranged AoE spike damage, which is exactly my point: mesmers doesn’t need a backstab, they got something else. I’m not talking about BV being strong or weak, I’m saying you can’t say it needs a buff based on another elite being more powerful.
So apparently, no, it wasn’t a bad analogy. In fact, you seem to agree with my point to some extend.
On the side note – yes, I do think BV could use a buff, but not too much, we wouldn’t want it to be something that secure us kills on everything but bunkers. Just a small buff of some sort.

if you want 2s basilisk venom then give up to some damage, because thief + 2-3s stun + stealth + initiative burst would be insane in pvp.
Anything but bunkers would die in 2s, and even bunkers would have problems.

Don’t destroy pvp please.

Rin.1046:

Rezok.2709:

You can’t compare one skill between professions. Following your logic mesmer should get something similar to backstab when they attack from stealth because, well, thiefs got backstab.

Yes, Jade Wind seems stronger than Basilisk Venom, but that’s no reason to buff BV. You balance a profession around ALL of their abilities, not just because x got a stronger skill than y. Yes, I believe thiefs needs some buffs (and nerfs for some things aswell), but saying one skill needs a buff because another profession got something stronger means you’re not looking at the whole picture.
Revenant haven’t gone live, they might get crap damage compared to thief when HoT comes, or they might have to rely on that ONE elite for control, where thiefs got plenty of control. You simply cannot say BV needs a buff because a profession, that isn’t even done yet, got one skill that’s stronger.

That is a fair comment, and to some degree I agree with you. When the right traits are selected BV can be very strong. But I still believe it needs a buff. Personally I think elite skills should be strong in their base untraited form, and not require traits to make them elite. BV to me seems to be designed that way. With venom sharing BV can be devastating, but it should be able to turn the tide of battle on its own, without traits. JW, untraited, has the potential to turn a fight in your favour. Just picture it, a 5v5 fight is occuring, when all of a sudden all 5 enemies are stunned. Now BV can do this too, but only if traited, which means you are sacrificing something else to do this.

You are right, you cannot really compare one skill to another, because your entire build should also be considered, but when there are so many variables to take into account, the only thing you can be sure about is the capability of each skill.

I guess, instead of comparing JW vs BV, we should consider whether BV deserves its elite status. It seems clear to me JW does, but I am not so sure BV does. At least in its base form.

I fully agree with you that BV shouldn’t require traits to work (neither should any elite imo). I fully understand that people think it’s underwhelming as an elite. But still, you can’t just buff BV because JW is strong. If you balance a game that way, you would never get a profession balanced as a whole, you would just keep buffing every skill because there’s always something stronger. Either that, or you would end up with all professions having the same skills and basically being the same. Neither of those outcomes are desirable for any of us.

Trying to compare skills this way is basically the same as this:

Kid A got a small piece of candy and look at kid B who got a bigger piece of candy. Kid A asks his mom for a big piece of candy.
Kid B now look over at kid A, who got both a small and a big piece of candy, and ask for another big piece of candy from his mom.
The kids kept on asking their moms for more candy in order to never have less candy than one another, and in the end the devs… Their moms took away all the candy and thiefs aswell as revenants… No, wait, the two kids cried because they had nothing.

I’m going just ignore all the trolls above who thinks Bvenom shouldn’t get any buffs.

aspirine.5839:

Rin.1046:

aspirine.5839:

BV should perhaps get a nice stack of poison applied. Would 10 stacks of poison be too much

As we already have a poison venom, how about adding 5 stacks of vulnerability, per application, to BV instead?

Skale Venom already does vulnerability.

What about a few stacks of Burning? :p

I like this idea, sounds like cement burn which would fit the idea of being turned into stone should also kittening hurt as hell. (pun not intended). Shouldn’t be too much to make B venom overpowered, but enough to warant it to be an elite skill.

The other 2 elites should be rebalanced as well. TG isn’t really worth it outside of pve and dagger storm is way too situational, mostly just for WvW.

Considering there is another thread in the necro forums comparing this skill to chilled to the bone, I’d say maybe this skill just needs to be weaker.

CttB is actually better then JW https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/revenant/Jade-Wind/page/2#post5301516

However BV can be also used while moving, unlike JW. Those are 2 completely different skills.

Kidel.2057:

if you want 2s basilisk venom then give up to some damage, because thief + 2-3s stun + stealth + initiative burst would be insane in pvp.
Anything but bunkers would die in 2s, and even bunkers would have problems.

Don’t destroy pvp please.

I don’t think it needs to be extended because most players break it anyway, it just needs to be instant cast like all the other venoms are so you can use it to interrupt. A 1 second cast time and then a visible buff on your bar makes it mediocre compared to many utility/weapon skills.

This is hilarious
post on thief forums saying Jade Winds > Basilisk Venom
post on necro forums saying Jade Winds > Chilled to the Bone!
post on revenant forums saying Basilisk Venom > Jade Winds

I’m glad everyone here has already tested these abilities in action and has definite proof of all this.

Anything with a 2 second cast time will be close to useless against good players. Just saying, necros already have plenty of skills you can counterplay with interrupts. Do they really need another one. It is pretty funny though.

Guess what? If you don’t like BV you can use another elite (Dagger Storm is awesome).
If a Revenant doesn’t like JW but needs Impossible Odds, he cannot swap in another elite skill.
My current build on Revenant has Shiro+Jalis, and both have terrible elite skills. I can’t do anything about it. I need to equip Jalis for the healing skill and Shiro for Impossible Odds.
Revenant has many drawbacks. It needs better skills.
(however I personally don’t think that JW is better then BV, just different. BV has less duration but many advantages, like instant application on enemy, double chances, range and so on. Plus Thief has access to stealth and initiative, Revenant does not. Dude, JW telegraph is huge and it’s not instant).

Plus
Leeching Venoms — Gain might when activating a venom. Siphon life from your foe when triggering a venom. This can only occur once per strike.
Venomous Aura — When you use a venom skill, you apply the effects to all nearby allies as well. Venom recharges are reduced.

^This guy actually thinks traiting into venoms is worth it outside of a coordinated WvW group?

Nah, I don’t really care, it just can be traited.
However the skill is very different, and the class too.

You should compare BV to this: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Backbreaker

Basilisk venom is hard to fail, jade winds is easy to fail and takes half initiative. End of the story