Guild Wars 2

Travlane.5948:

daendur doesnt play s/d obviously. its a ruined set if even 1 is nerfed like so.

yes i think if even 1 of those nerfs show up S/D is finished.

@mirra im pretty sure thats wrong. only reason you could use shadow return instead of any other skill is bc it was a stun break. same with shadow return on SS>and removes 3 conditions. take that away and you wont. :/

Lotus Strike: Poison duration increased form 2s to 4s.
Not a bad change, but an obvious attempt to throw dagger auto a tiny bone to make it better DPS than sword auto since it is single-target, too bad most thieves using dagger auto don’t care about conditions

Shadow Trap: Increased recharge to 45 seconds.
Destroy Shadow Trap: This ability now teleports the thief back to the trap location when it is destroyed. Added range skill facts. This skill now breaks stuns.
Shadow Pursuit: This ability now grants fury and 10 stacks of might for 5 seconds along with stealth when used to teleport to the enemy who triggered Shadow Trap. This ability now breaks stuns.
A neat set of changes to the only trap that was already sort of useful. This trap may actually find its way onto more people’s skill bars now. I do wish the boons were AE shared with nearby allies though, thieves could use the utility

Death Blossom: Now costs 4 initiative.
ANet made thieves, but nature, have a spammy playstyle by allowing them to repeatedly use the best skill for the situation. ANet continues to hunt down and destroy any instance wherein the thief does spam a certain skill. I understand they don’t like the dynamic of it, but the entire thief profession needs to be rebalanced around the fact that ANet apparently wants thieves to cycle through different skills despite the entirety of thief mechanics not supporting that.

Body Shot: Aftercast reduced by .4s. Decreased Vuln duratrion to 3s. Increaased to 10 stacks fo Vuln.
Cool, but this isn’t going to fix Body Shot. The problem with Body Shot is that Vulnerability is terrible, not that Body Shot doesn’t apply it well enough.

Pistol Whip: Decreased the time between the sstun and the sword flurry.
Will hopefully bring PW more firmly above auto attack in DPS and allow more strikes with PW to actually land, but I don’t see it really changing the role of the skill or how popular it is. PW’s mobility tradeoff is simply too great in most situations (it’ll continue to be good for stuff like PvE and attacking groups of revivers).

Scorpion Wire: Decreased aftercast by .2 seconds. Reduced cooldown to 20s.
This is what Scorpion Wire needed. It is a decent utility and fits the profession very well, but it needs to be a frequently usable tool and the current cooldown doesn’t support that

Signet of Malice: Increased the base heal by 33% of the passive ability.
This is pretty awesome. SoM was already pretty good and a 33 % boost will be welcome. Thief heals are highly situational and SoM catches a lot of flak for being terrible in the same situations the other heals are good in. I think this creates some misplaced pressure to boost SoM so it is equally viable to, say, Hide in Shadows in every situation, which is silly. SoM will continue to excel where it did before, but this boost won’t make it any more viable where it was previously bad.

Steal: Recharge reduced to 35.
Pretty significant, especially coupled with the Trickery trait changes farther down. This is likely only happening because of the Mug nerf transitioning Steal from something so many thieves used for burst damage to a much more utility-heavy skill. Low-CD Mug will actually give thieves a good amount of staying power.

Cluster Bomb range set to 900 from 1200.
I guess ANet really really doesn’t want thieves to be able to reach out and touch people at 1200 range. It’ll mostly hurt siege combat, I suppose.

Larcenous Strike: Initiative cost increased to 2.
This should probably have been expected, LS is amazingly cheap at 1 initiative. I’d like to see the time LS is available to be used extended a bit though.

Nine tail strike: 3 initiative to 5
Shadow assault: 5 initiative to 7

Woo, water combat nerfs to the only part of water combat that isn’t crazily underpowered for thieves. This is a bit infuriating, thieves went from having almost no water combat options, all of which were terrible and boring, to having zero water combat options. Fix thief utilities under water so thieves aren’t hamstringed and useless. Someone probably complained about these two skills in terms of PvP and ANet completely ignored how utterly bad water combat is for thieves when they decided to “fix” them.

The ripper: 5 seconds of bleed – > 7 s of bleed
Deadly Strike: Weakness duration 4s – 5 s, damage increased from 1 to 1.2
Yeah, that’ll help, especially considering there’s almost no way to get into stealth under water and use these skills. See above. If these patch notes are real then ANet is blatantly ignoring how thieves actually function under water.

Skale Venom: Replaced Weakness with Torment.
On one hand, cool, I hope Torment is useful. On the other hand, this is part of an overall initiative to reduce one of the only viable utilities thieves can bring to the table (weakness), as you’ll see below.

Dancing Dagger: Reduced initiative cost to 3.
This should have happened when DD got a massive damage nerf. It might actually get used again, but this change taking >6 months is pathetic.

Shadow Return (infiltrator strike toggle): This skill is no longer a stun breaker.
This was a great thief asset and it’ll be sad to see it go, it encouraged skill-based play and access to a stunbreak on demand gave thieves a lot of options and set them apart from most professions

Withdraw: Travel distance cut in half underwater to match the land distance.
Why? Every other skill under water throws PCs and NPCs halfway across a lake and way out of the thief’s pathetic ability to manage mobility and chase under water. Just another symptom of ANet not understanding how bad water combat currently is.

Deadly Strike: Reduced weakness duration to 3 seconds.
Seems to contradict above patch note? I believe it though, as part of the mentioned initiative to rid thieves of one of their only useful utilities (longterm weakness)

Crippling Strike: This ability no long applies weakness.
Rusty Scrap Strike: Reduced weakness duration to 8 seconds.
Throw Scale: Reduced weakness duration to 6 seconds.
Thieves apparently shouldn’t be able to contribute utility via conditions. In PvE Defiant already mostly wrecked condition utility, but removing weakness should seal the deal.

Acrobatics
Assassin’s Retreat: This trait now grants 10 seconds of swiftness when you kill a foe. This effect has a 5 second internal cooldown.
Woo, still useless.

Pain Response: This cooldown of this effect has been reduced from 45 seconds to 30.
Hard to Catch: The cooldown of this effect has been reduced from 60 seconds to 30.
The problem with these kind of traits isn’t the cooldown, it is the fact that they’re utterly unreliable

Critical Strikes
Furious Retaliation: This trait now grants 10 seconds of fury when striking a target that is below 50% health. This effect can only occur once every 30 seconds.
*A small buff and mechanical change, but Critical Strikes wasn’t exactly lacking in good damage traits. With 100 % Fury duration this one trait can now manage 66 % uptime on Fury, which is pretty neat.

Signets of Power: This 5 stacks of might that this trait grants has been increased to 10 seconds.
This is a very nice change because of how the double duration will by multiplicatively affected by boon duration. This opens up some more Acrobatics+Signet synergy that I’ll be interested to see people use.

Deadly Arts
Corrosive Traps. This trait now 5 stacks of vulnerability for 8 seconds, up from 5.
Looks like a positive change but is actually pretty bad for thieves. The more trap usefulness is offloaded onto traits, the more traps will be terrible unless heavily traited. This is pushing traps the way of venoms (terrible unless you build around them) and that is bad for the profession as a while. Traps need to be fixed first.

Sundering strikes: Vulnerability caused by this trait has been increased from 5 seconds to 10 seconds.
It looks like ANet wants to replace thieves’ defensive utility via weakness with offensive utility via Vulnerability. This is a good trait, but Vulnerability is still pretty bad.

Panic Strike: This trait’s cooldown has been reduced from 60 seconds to 30.
As befitting a grandmaster trait, this will see a lot more play now

Lotus Poison: Increased weakness duration to 4 seconds, but it can only apply once every 20 seconds per target.
Woo, more weakness nerfs, I like how they tried to play is as a buff though. This utterly destroys stacking weakness via poison fields and the like.

Shadow Arts
Last Refuge: The cooldown of this trait has been reduced from 90 seconds to 60.
Slowed Pulse: The effect of this trait now occurs if you have 2 or more stacks of bleeding.
As above, they failed to miss why people hate these passive unreliable traits.

Shadow Protector: This trait has been changed to apply 10 seconds of regeneration when you stealth them. This effect will not occur if the ally already has regeneration on them.
This is some neat defensive utility, it might see some play in PvE now

Trickery
Merciful Ambush: This trait now grants 2 seconds of stealth to you and your ally when beginning a revive.
A much better implementation of the combat medic thief motif. The previous implementation was just silly. That said, I’m a little worried thieves will just use this to start reviving an ally and then turn around and use the stealth offensively, which might cause this to get nerfed back down.

Long Reach: This trait now increases the range of Steal to 1500, up from 1200.
An attempt to make up for neutering thief range maybe? If Steal had shadow return it’d make more sense

Ricochet: The chance to bounce for this trait has been increased from 25% to 50%.
Good try, still won’t fix pistols, ANet still doesn’t understand why they’re bad

Sleight of Hand: In addition to dazing your target, this trait now reduces the recharge of Steal by an additional 20%.
Another grandmaster trait getting the love it really needs, Trickery may be worth maxing more often now

Instinctual Response: This trait now properly blinds enemies struck by the feathers. Increased radius from 120 to 180.
Bugfix mostly, but this is another example of a defensive proc that is just unreliable. Maybe if thieves actually had obviously-missing blind synergy traits…

All in all? Meh, this is a pretty bad round of nerfs for thieves targeted at reducing thief utility and underwater effectiveness (which is beating a dead horse)

dont really get all the complaints about S/D. I play S/D mainly and yes it’s a nerf but it’s not as bad as people make it out to be.

Stuns in this game are all quite short in duration, so even if it isnt a stunbreaker anymore it doesnt man we will be dead once the first stun hits us. Immobilize is much much stronger than stuns (imo) and infil strike still takes care of that just fine. We also still have Shadowstep / Roll for Ini / Infil Signet, etc.

Also, 2 Ini on Flanking Strike: Good change. The Skill is still really really good but this prevents all the noobs spamming spamming without properly managing their Inititative. I’ve encountered so many S/D thiefs going 333333 and it was just too rewarding for pressing one button over and over. (Btw you will still be able to spam it just fine if you spec very high into Ini regen -> jumpers build)

Anyway, i cant wait to try Shadow Trap, it sounds really good. I also like that they are buffing Dancing Dagger because thats the only skill i dont use frequently on S/D (i dont use it at all) but the ini reduced to 3 isn’t helping it at all. Infil Strike is still superior, so no point in using it.

kittennit.7648:

it’s not as bad as people make it out to be.

Thats the case for everything on these forums…

kittennit.7648:

dont really get all the complaints about S/D. I play S/D mainly and yes it’s a nerf but it’s not as bad as people make it out to be.

Stuns in this game are all quite short in duration, so even if it isnt a stunbreaker anymore it doesnt man we will be dead once the first stun hits us. Immobilize is much much stronger than stuns (imo) and infil strike still takes care of that just fine. We also still have Shadowstep / Roll for Ini / Infil Signet, etc.

Also, 2 Ini on Flanking Strike: Good change. The Skill is still really really good but this prevents all the noobs spamming spamming without properly managing their Inititative. I’ve encountered so many S/D thiefs going 333333 and it was just too rewarding for pressing one button over and over. (Btw you will still be able to spam it just fine if you spec very high into Ini regen -> jumpers build)

Anyway, i cant wait to try Shadow Trap, it sounds really good. I also like that they are buffing Dancing Dagger because thats the only skill i dont use frequently on S/D (i dont use it at all) but the ini reduced to 3 isn’t helping it at all. Infil Strike is still superior, so no point in using it.

d/d BV gonna sneak up and own your kitten now u have 0 chance hope ur quick with that SS or they gonan 2 hit u

Travlane.5948:

kittennit.7648:

dont really get all the complaints about S/D. I play S/D mainly and yes it’s a nerf but it’s not as bad as people make it out to be.

Stuns in this game are all quite short in duration, so even if it isnt a stunbreaker anymore it doesnt man we will be dead once the first stun hits us. Immobilize is much much stronger than stuns (imo) and infil strike still takes care of that just fine. We also still have Shadowstep / Roll for Ini / Infil Signet, etc.

Also, 2 Ini on Flanking Strike: Good change. The Skill is still really really good but this prevents all the noobs spamming spamming without properly managing their Inititative. I’ve encountered so many S/D thiefs going 333333 and it was just too rewarding for pressing one button over and over. (Btw you will still be able to spam it just fine if you spec very high into Ini regen -> jumpers build)

Anyway, i cant wait to try Shadow Trap, it sounds really good. I also like that they are buffing Dancing Dagger because thats the only skill i dont use frequently on S/D (i dont use it at all) but the ini reduced to 3 isn’t helping it at all. Infil Strike is still superior, so no point in using it.

d/d BV gonna sneak up and own your kitten now u have 0 chance hope ur quick with that SS or they gonan 2 hit u

Where’s the diff between popping roll for ini and shadow return?

only 1 build consistently runs RFI…..RFI has a good .5 or .7 sec lag to it too when you are immob/stun/dazed/chlled etc. plus it has a 60 sec cooldown. better off with blinding powder as it invis you and blinds them and removes 2 condis with infusion of shadow. RFI sux unless running a very specific kind of initiative build. better off brining withdraw if u want the effect. s/d was a reliable build bc of the stun break only. without that you could rip all boons with LS and still die . the stun break allows you to play without stealth. if u dont belive me place a bet. see how many people, if they still use s/d, now change to a stealth mix. :P

Travlane.5948:

only 1 build consistently runs RFI…..RFI has a good .5 or .7 sec lag to it too when you are immob/stun/dazed/chlled etc. plus it has a 60 sec cooldown. better off with blinding powder as it invis you and blinds them and removes 2 condis with infusion of shadow. RFI sux unless running a very specific kind of initiative build. better off brining withdraw if u want the effect. s/d was a reliable build bc of the stun break only. without that you could rip all boons with LS and still die . the stun break allows you to play without stealth. if u dont belive me place a bet. see how many people, if they still use s/d, now change to a stealth mix. :P

I was referring to just breaking the basi, ofc a stun breaker based on initiative will be much better than SS / RFI just for the purpose of breaking a stun. The point is that you can still break a stun, even tho at a higher cost.

And i disagree that the stun break makes or breaks S/D, infil strike was in the top 3 of thief skills period, now it’s “just” very good.

kittennit.7648:

Travlane.5948:

kittennit.7648:

dont really get all the complaints about S/D. I play S/D mainly and yes it’s a nerf but it’s not as bad as people make it out to be.

Stuns in this game are all quite short in duration, so even if it isnt a stunbreaker anymore it doesnt man we will be dead once the first stun hits us. Immobilize is much much stronger than stuns (imo) and infil strike still takes care of that just fine. We also still have Shadowstep / Roll for Ini / Infil Signet, etc.

Also, 2 Ini on Flanking Strike: Good change. The Skill is still really really good but this prevents all the noobs spamming spamming without properly managing their Inititative. I’ve encountered so many S/D thiefs going 333333 and it was just too rewarding for pressing one button over and over. (Btw you will still be able to spam it just fine if you spec very high into Ini regen -> jumpers build)

Anyway, i cant wait to try Shadow Trap, it sounds really good. I also like that they are buffing Dancing Dagger because thats the only skill i dont use frequently on S/D (i dont use it at all) but the ini reduced to 3 isn’t helping it at all. Infil Strike is still superior, so no point in using it.

d/d BV gonna sneak up and own your kitten now u have 0 chance hope ur quick with that SS or they gonan 2 hit u

Where’s the diff between popping roll for ini and shadow return?

I’m gonna respond to both of Shiz’s posts here, I’ve been a die hard sword thief since beta. You claim to play s/d but cant see the ramifications of these, lets call them possible changes. First off, by choosing sword over dagger, your sacrificing damage for mobility and survival. You can gain that survival either through shadow arts (which fits d/p much better than s/d) or through copious amounts of mobility and select condi.

Sword shadow return was a main aspect of that mobility and the weakness on auto provided a decent amount of indirect damage mitigation, something thieves in general lack. with both of these items removed, s/d mobile builds and s/p are hurt drastically. Now you could play s/d daze build and go for shadow arts instead, but this build has already been destroyed in spvp and was never that great in pve/wvw anyhow.

As to your final question, whats the difference in popping sr and roll for ini? Well for one, you have to waste a utility slot on rfi, sr is from a weaponskill. Secondly if your depending on rfi as your stun break, every single class will be able to recharge there cc and burst BEFORE the cd on rfi expires.

Shemsu.8721:

kittennit.7648:

Travlane.5948:

kittennit.7648:

dont really get all the complaints about S/D. I play S/D mainly and yes it’s a nerf but it’s not as bad as people make it out to be.

Stuns in this game are all quite short in duration, so even if it isnt a stunbreaker anymore it doesnt man we will be dead once the first stun hits us. Immobilize is much much stronger than stuns (imo) and infil strike still takes care of that just fine. We also still have Shadowstep / Roll for Ini / Infil Signet, etc.

Also, 2 Ini on Flanking Strike: Good change. The Skill is still really really good but this prevents all the noobs spamming spamming without properly managing their Inititative. I’ve encountered so many S/D thiefs going 333333 and it was just too rewarding for pressing one button over and over. (Btw you will still be able to spam it just fine if you spec very high into Ini regen -> jumpers build)

Anyway, i cant wait to try Shadow Trap, it sounds really good. I also like that they are buffing Dancing Dagger because thats the only skill i dont use frequently on S/D (i dont use it at all) but the ini reduced to 3 isn’t helping it at all. Infil Strike is still superior, so no point in using it.

d/d BV gonna sneak up and own your kitten now u have 0 chance hope ur quick with that SS or they gonan 2 hit u

Where’s the diff between popping roll for ini and shadow return?

I’m gonna respond to both of Shiz’s posts here, I’ve been a die hard sword thief since beta. You claim to play s/d but cant see the ramifications of these, lets call them possible changes. First off, by choosing sword over dagger, your sacrificing damage for mobility and survival. You can gain that survival either through shadow arts (which fits d/p much better than s/d) or through copious amounts of mobility and select condi.

Sword shadow return was a main aspect of that mobility and the weakness on auto provided a decent amount of indirect damage mitigation, something thieves in general lack. with both of these items removed, s/d mobile builds and s/p are hurt drastically. Now you could play s/d daze build and go for shadow arts instead, but this build has already been destroyed in spvp and was never that great in pve/wvw anyhow.

As to your final question, whats the difference in popping sr and roll for ini? Well for one, you have to waste a utility slot on rfi, sr is from a weaponskill. Secondly if your depending on rfi as your stun break, every single class will be able to recharge there cc and burst BEFORE the cd on rfi expires.

Sword main hand still has much much better mobility than Dagger main hand so…

You’re talking like Shadow return got patched out of the game. You realize that it still works the same way it did before? The only difference is that you cannot break stun with it anymore… yes it’s a nerf but its not nerfing he skill from “very very very good” to “useless” so yea…

Also: RFI was an exmaple, can also insert Shadowstep / Infil signet

“If these patch notes are real then ANet is blatantly ignoring how thieves actually function under water.”

Thieves are entirely dysfunctional underwater. I guess now we move away from being situationally perfect (broken) or situationally awful (broken) and just become awful underwater.

kittennit.7648:

Shemsu.8721:

kittennit.7648:

Travlane.5948:

kittennit.7648:

dont really get all the complaints about S/D. I play S/D mainly and yes it’s a nerf but it’s not as bad as people make it out to be.

Stuns in this game are all quite short in duration, so even if it isnt a stunbreaker anymore it doesnt man we will be dead once the first stun hits us. Immobilize is much much stronger than stuns (imo) and infil strike still takes care of that just fine. We also still have Shadowstep / Roll for Ini / Infil Signet, etc.

Also, 2 Ini on Flanking Strike: Good change. The Skill is still really really good but this prevents all the noobs spamming spamming without properly managing their Inititative. I’ve encountered so many S/D thiefs going 333333 and it was just too rewarding for pressing one button over and over. (Btw you will still be able to spam it just fine if you spec very high into Ini regen -> jumpers build)

Anyway, i cant wait to try Shadow Trap, it sounds really good. I also like that they are buffing Dancing Dagger because thats the only skill i dont use frequently on S/D (i dont use it at all) but the ini reduced to 3 isn’t helping it at all. Infil Strike is still superior, so no point in using it.

d/d BV gonna sneak up and own your kitten now u have 0 chance hope ur quick with that SS or they gonan 2 hit u

Where’s the diff between popping roll for ini and shadow return?

I’m gonna respond to both of Shiz’s posts here, I’ve been a die hard sword thief since beta. You claim to play s/d but cant see the ramifications of these, lets call them possible changes. First off, by choosing sword over dagger, your sacrificing damage for mobility and survival. You can gain that survival either through shadow arts (which fits d/p much better than s/d) or through copious amounts of mobility and select condi.

Sword shadow return was a main aspect of that mobility and the weakness on auto provided a decent amount of indirect damage mitigation, something thieves in general lack. with both of these items removed, s/d mobile builds and s/p are hurt drastically. Now you could play s/d daze build and go for shadow arts instead, but this build has already been destroyed in spvp and was never that great in pve/wvw anyhow.

As to your final question, whats the difference in popping sr and roll for ini? Well for one, you have to waste a utility slot on rfi, sr is from a weaponskill. Secondly if your depending on rfi as your stun break, every single class will be able to recharge there cc and burst BEFORE the cd on rfi expires.

Sword main hand still has much much better mobility than Dagger main hand so…

You’re talking like Shadow return got patched out of the game. You realize that it still works the same way it did before? The only difference is that you cannot break stun with it anymore… yes it’s a nerf but its not nerfing he skill from “very very very good” to “useless” so yea…

Also: RFI was an exmaple, can also insert Shadowstep / Infil signet

Well I never said it was totally useless, i’m sure it’ll still work fine in pve where AI is unable to take advantage of you. In tpvp and wvw however? I still wont say completely useless, but no longer good enough to sacrifice daggers damage and stealth access, since you can gain the same amount of survive from shadow arts, you can even run dagger evade builds with acrobatics.

Also you cant point out shadowstep and infil signet as better than rfi for avoid cc burst combo’s. shadowstep cd is barely lower rfi, so the same applies. and infil signet, in spvp at least, you wont have another target available much of the time, so its not really avoiding burst if you shadowstep directly to your enemy..

Shemsu.8721:

kittennit.7648:

Shemsu.8721:

kittennit.7648:

Travlane.5948:

kittennit.7648:

dont really get all the complaints about S/D. I play S/D mainly and yes it’s a nerf but it’s not as bad as people make it out to be.

Stuns in this game are all quite short in duration, so even if it isnt a stunbreaker anymore it doesnt man we will be dead once the first stun hits us. Immobilize is much much stronger than stuns (imo) and infil strike still takes care of that just fine. We also still have Shadowstep / Roll for Ini / Infil Signet, etc.

Also, 2 Ini on Flanking Strike: Good change. The Skill is still really really good but this prevents all the noobs spamming spamming without properly managing their Inititative. I’ve encountered so many S/D thiefs going 333333 and it was just too rewarding for pressing one button over and over. (Btw you will still be able to spam it just fine if you spec very high into Ini regen -> jumpers build)

Anyway, i cant wait to try Shadow Trap, it sounds really good. I also like that they are buffing Dancing Dagger because thats the only skill i dont use frequently on S/D (i dont use it at all) but the ini reduced to 3 isn’t helping it at all. Infil Strike is still superior, so no point in using it.

d/d BV gonna sneak up and own your kitten now u have 0 chance hope ur quick with that SS or they gonan 2 hit u

Where’s the diff between popping roll for ini and shadow return?

I’m gonna respond to both of Shiz’s posts here, I’ve been a die hard sword thief since beta. You claim to play s/d but cant see the ramifications of these, lets call them possible changes. First off, by choosing sword over dagger, your sacrificing damage for mobility and survival. You can gain that survival either through shadow arts (which fits d/p much better than s/d) or through copious amounts of mobility and select condi.

Sword shadow return was a main aspect of that mobility and the weakness on auto provided a decent amount of indirect damage mitigation, something thieves in general lack. with both of these items removed, s/d mobile builds and s/p are hurt drastically. Now you could play s/d daze build and go for shadow arts instead, but this build has already been destroyed in spvp and was never that great in pve/wvw anyhow.

As to your final question, whats the difference in popping sr and roll for ini? Well for one, you have to waste a utility slot on rfi, sr is from a weaponskill. Secondly if your depending on rfi as your stun break, every single class will be able to recharge there cc and burst BEFORE the cd on rfi expires.

Sword main hand still has much much better mobility than Dagger main hand so…

You’re talking like Shadow return got patched out of the game. You realize that it still works the same way it did before? The only difference is that you cannot break stun with it anymore… yes it’s a nerf but its not nerfing he skill from “very very very good” to “useless” so yea…

Also: RFI was an exmaple, can also insert Shadowstep / Infil signet

Well I never said it was totally useless, i’m sure it’ll still work fine in pve where AI is unable to take advantage of you. In tpvp and wvw however? I still wont say completely useless, but no longer good enough to sacrifice daggers damage and stealth access, since you can gain the same amount of survive from shadow arts, you can even run dagger evade builds with acrobatics.

Also you cant point out shadowstep and infil signet as better than rfi for avoid cc burst combo’s. shadowstep cd is barely lower rfi, so the same applies. and infil signet, in spvp at least, you wont have another target available much of the time, so its not really avoiding burst if you shadowstep directly to your enemy..

Dude, i’m not saying that the skill didnt get nerfed it did. I’m just saying that it’s not breaking the weapon set atleast thats my feeling towards it right now, we will know for sure once the patch goes live.

Just for your information, i dont play PvE much i play almost exclusively WvW and sPvP / tPvP

kittennit.7648:

Shemsu.8721:

kittennit.7648:

Shemsu.8721:

kittennit.7648:

Travlane.5948:

kittennit.7648:

dont really get all the complaints about S/D. I play S/D mainly and yes it’s a nerf but it’s not as bad as people make it out to be.

Stuns in this game are all quite short in duration, so even if it isnt a stunbreaker anymore it doesnt man we will be dead once the first stun hits us. Immobilize is much much stronger than stuns (imo) and infil strike still takes care of that just fine. We also still have Shadowstep / Roll for Ini / Infil Signet, etc.

Also, 2 Ini on Flanking Strike: Good change. The Skill is still really really good but this prevents all the noobs spamming spamming without properly managing their Inititative. I’ve encountered so many S/D thiefs going 333333 and it was just too rewarding for pressing one button over and over. (Btw you will still be able to spam it just fine if you spec very high into Ini regen -> jumpers build)

Anyway, i cant wait to try Shadow Trap, it sounds really good. I also like that they are buffing Dancing Dagger because thats the only skill i dont use frequently on S/D (i dont use it at all) but the ini reduced to 3 isn’t helping it at all. Infil Strike is still superior, so no point in using it.

d/d BV gonna sneak up and own your kitten now u have 0 chance hope ur quick with that SS or they gonan 2 hit u

Where’s the diff between popping roll for ini and shadow return?

I’m gonna respond to both of Shiz’s posts here, I’ve been a die hard sword thief since beta. You claim to play s/d but cant see the ramifications of these, lets call them possible changes. First off, by choosing sword over dagger, your sacrificing damage for mobility and survival. You can gain that survival either through shadow arts (which fits d/p much better than s/d) or through copious amounts of mobility and select condi.

Sword shadow return was a main aspect of that mobility and the weakness on auto provided a decent amount of indirect damage mitigation, something thieves in general lack. with both of these items removed, s/d mobile builds and s/p are hurt drastically. Now you could play s/d daze build and go for shadow arts instead, but this build has already been destroyed in spvp and was never that great in pve/wvw anyhow.

As to your final question, whats the difference in popping sr and roll for ini? Well for one, you have to waste a utility slot on rfi, sr is from a weaponskill. Secondly if your depending on rfi as your stun break, every single class will be able to recharge there cc and burst BEFORE the cd on rfi expires.

Sword main hand still has much much better mobility than Dagger main hand so…

You’re talking like Shadow return got patched out of the game. You realize that it still works the same way it did before? The only difference is that you cannot break stun with it anymore… yes it’s a nerf but its not nerfing he skill from “very very very good” to “useless” so yea…

Also: RFI was an exmaple, can also insert Shadowstep / Infil signet

Well I never said it was totally useless, i’m sure it’ll still work fine in pve where AI is unable to take advantage of you. In tpvp and wvw however? I still wont say completely useless, but no longer good enough to sacrifice daggers damage and stealth access, since you can gain the same amount of survive from shadow arts, you can even run dagger evade builds with acrobatics.

Also you cant point out shadowstep and infil signet as better than rfi for avoid cc burst combo’s. shadowstep cd is barely lower rfi, so the same applies. and infil signet, in spvp at least, you wont have another target available much of the time, so its not really avoiding burst if you shadowstep directly to your enemy..

Dude, i’m not saying that the skill didnt get nerfed it did. I’m just saying that it’s not breaking the weapon set atleast thats my feeling towards it right now, we will know for sure once the patch goes live.

Just for your information, i dont play PvE much i play almost exclusively WvW and sPvP / tPvP

And i’m not saying its completely broken like i said, sword will still work in pve, and in hotjoin pvp you can run with one weapon and no traits and still kill bads with anything. but tpvp and to be an effective roamer in wvw, a stealthless build gives up ALOT to roam in wvw, sword had the tools to compensate, the recent changes and this and i no longer think it will. As you say though, time will tell, I hope these are fake personally.

Side Note: if they are not fake, can you imagine the river of tears that will be in this forums once people realize that uber op backstab instagib combo can now be 1500 range?

S/D was not an effective WvW roamer to begin with. It was always a tPvP build.

It gets pwned by mesmer and other thieves in WvW 1on1.

Now it will be useless in tPvP as well.

Did people just misunderstand about stun-break and non-activation skill?

Even if they remove stun-break from IS/SR you will still able to use SR when you are stunned. The only different is that you will stay stun for its duration but your body will still return to the original place.

kittennit.7648:

Shemsu.8721:

kittennit.7648:

Travlane.5948:

kittennit.7648:

dont really get all the complaints about S/D. I play S/D mainly and yes it’s a nerf but it’s not as bad as people make it out to be.

Stuns in this game are all quite short in duration, so even if it isnt a stunbreaker anymore it doesnt man we will be dead once the first stun hits us. Immobilize is much much stronger than stuns (imo) and infil strike still takes care of that just fine. We also still have Shadowstep / Roll for Ini / Infil Signet, etc.

Also, 2 Ini on Flanking Strike: Good change. The Skill is still really really good but this prevents all the noobs spamming spamming without properly managing their Inititative. I’ve encountered so many S/D thiefs going 333333 and it was just too rewarding for pressing one button over and over. (Btw you will still be able to spam it just fine if you spec very high into Ini regen -> jumpers build)

Anyway, i cant wait to try Shadow Trap, it sounds really good. I also like that they are buffing Dancing Dagger because thats the only skill i dont use frequently on S/D (i dont use it at all) but the ini reduced to 3 isn’t helping it at all. Infil Strike is still superior, so no point in using it.

d/d BV gonna sneak up and own your kitten now u have 0 chance hope ur quick with that SS or they gonan 2 hit u

Where’s the diff between popping roll for ini and shadow return?

I’m gonna respond to both of Shiz’s posts here, I’ve been a die hard sword thief since beta. You claim to play s/d but cant see the ramifications of these, lets call them possible changes. First off, by choosing sword over dagger, your sacrificing damage for mobility and survival. You can gain that survival either through shadow arts (which fits d/p much better than s/d) or through copious amounts of mobility and select condi.

Sword shadow return was a main aspect of that mobility and the weakness on auto provided a decent amount of indirect damage mitigation, something thieves in general lack. with both of these items removed, s/d mobile builds and s/p are hurt drastically. Now you could play s/d daze build and go for shadow arts instead, but this build has already been destroyed in spvp and was never that great in pve/wvw anyhow.

As to your final question, whats the difference in popping sr and roll for ini? Well for one, you have to waste a utility slot on rfi, sr is from a weaponskill. Secondly if your depending on rfi as your stun break, every single class will be able to recharge there cc and burst BEFORE the cd on rfi expires.

Sword main hand still has much much better mobility than Dagger main hand so…

You’re talking like Shadow return got patched out of the game. You realize that it still works the same way it did before? The only difference is that you cannot break stun with it anymore… yes it’s a nerf but its not nerfing he skill from “very very very good” to “useless” so yea…

Also: RFI was an exmaple, can also insert Shadowstep / Infil signet

It seems like many thieves only started touching sword in may. The inf strike change damages the already low key venom build on both sets where shadow return has a duty to protect from CC so you can bring your support. Without there is greater need for a stun break which decreases by necessity the possible venoms from 4/3 to 3/2.
Considering S/P’s state that’s another nerf in build variety after the crippling nerf to its burst build in march. Considering the time between attacks for PW even if the delay is reduced that will mean 1 extra slakitten best. In a power crit build that is 500-900 DMG. Which sounds a lot in theory but with only 3-4 hits getting in ATM that’s about 2500-4800 damage instead of 1800-4300 DMG out of the total ~ 5-8k. Ideally with haste it’ll mean 3 more hits. With lack of mug crits this will still be lower than March though S/P thieves can bridge the gap a bit better with skill. With no stun break though you have to work even harder than you did before March with less DMG. Wot?.

Go to S/D and the cost itself is fine if the /D was better. If you find justifying dancing daggers hard for the INI cost you will continue to do so when FS cost goes up simultaneously. A shame CND doesn’t give more vuln. S/D is still less fleshed out then its pre-december form. Running a supportive S/D will drop as well since if you were arguing for venom share S/D vs S/P won’t even matter when the stun break is gone and Venom share anything can’t protect itself well enough. Especially given that SB needs mean staying on the outskirts does not work well.

Shemsu.8721:

kittennit.7648:

Shemsu.8721:

kittennit.7648:

Shemsu.8721:

kittennit.7648:

Travlane.5948:

kittennit.7648:

dont really get all the complaints about S/D. I play S/D mainly and yes it’s a nerf but it’s not as bad as people make it out to be.

Stuns in this game are all quite short in duration, so even if it isnt a stunbreaker anymore it doesnt man we will be dead once the first stun hits us. Immobilize is much much stronger than stuns (imo) and infil strike still takes care of that just fine. We also still have Shadowstep / Roll for Ini / Infil Signet, etc.

Also, 2 Ini on Flanking Strike: Good change. The Skill is still really really good but this prevents all the noobs spamming spamming without properly managing their Inititative. I’ve encountered so many S/D thiefs going 333333 and it was just too rewarding for pressing one button over and over. (Btw you will still be able to spam it just fine if you spec very high into Ini regen -> jumpers build)

Anyway, i cant wait to try Shadow Trap, it sounds really good. I also like that they are buffing Dancing Dagger because thats the only skill i dont use frequently on S/D (i dont use it at all) but the ini reduced to 3 isn’t helping it at all. Infil Strike is still superior, so no point in using it.

d/d BV gonna sneak up and own your kitten now u have 0 chance hope ur quick with that SS or they gonan 2 hit u

Where’s the diff between popping roll for ini and shadow return?

I’m gonna respond to both of Shiz’s posts here, I’ve been a die hard sword thief since beta. You claim to play s/d but cant see the ramifications of these, lets call them possible changes. First off, by choosing sword over dagger, your sacrificing damage for mobility and survival. You can gain that survival either through shadow arts (which fits d/p much better than s/d) or through copious amounts of mobility and select condi.

Sword shadow return was a main aspect of that mobility and the weakness on auto provided a decent amount of indirect damage mitigation, something thieves in general lack. with both of these items removed, s/d mobile builds and s/p are hurt drastically. Now you could play s/d daze build and go for shadow arts instead, but this build has already been destroyed in spvp and was never that great in pve/wvw anyhow.

As to your final question, whats the difference in popping sr and roll for ini? Well for one, you have to waste a utility slot on rfi, sr is from a weaponskill. Secondly if your depending on rfi as your stun break, every single class will be able to recharge there cc and burst BEFORE the cd on rfi expires.

Sword main hand still has much much better mobility than Dagger main hand so…

You’re talking like Shadow return got patched out of the game. You realize that it still works the same way it did before? The only difference is that you cannot break stun with it anymore… yes it’s a nerf but its not nerfing he skill from “very very very good” to “useless” so yea…

Also: RFI was an exmaple, can also insert Shadowstep / Infil signet

Well I never said it was totally useless, i’m sure it’ll still work fine in pve where AI is unable to take advantage of you. In tpvp and wvw however? I still wont say completely useless, but no longer good enough to sacrifice daggers damage and stealth access, since you can gain the same amount of survive from shadow arts, you can even run dagger evade builds with acrobatics.

Also you cant point out shadowstep and infil signet as better than rfi for avoid cc burst combo’s. shadowstep cd is barely lower rfi, so the same applies. and infil signet, in spvp at least, you wont have another target available much of the time, so its not really avoiding burst if you shadowstep directly to your enemy..

Dude, i’m not saying that the skill didnt get nerfed it did. I’m just saying that it’s not breaking the weapon set atleast thats my feeling towards it right now, we will know for sure once the patch goes live.

Just for your information, i dont play PvE much i play almost exclusively WvW and sPvP / tPvP

And i’m not saying its completely broken like i said, sword will still work in pve, and in hotjoin pvp you can run with one weapon and no traits and still kill bads with anything. but tpvp and to be an effective roamer in wvw, a stealthless build gives up ALOT to roam in wvw, sword had the tools to compensate, the recent changes and this and i no longer think it will. As you say though, time will tell, I hope these are fake personally.

Side Note: if they are not fake, can you imagine the river of tears that will be in this forums once people realize that uber op backstab instagib combo can now be 1500 range?

Will be very entertaining

ensoriki.5789:

kittennit.7648:

Shemsu.8721:

kittennit.7648:

Travlane.5948:

kittennit.7648:

dont really get all the complaints about S/D. I play S/D mainly and yes it’s a nerf but it’s not as bad as people make it out to be.

Stuns in this game are all quite short in duration, so even if it isnt a stunbreaker anymore it doesnt man we will be dead once the first stun hits us. Immobilize is much much stronger than stuns (imo) and infil strike still takes care of that just fine. We also still have Shadowstep / Roll for Ini / Infil Signet, etc.

Also, 2 Ini on Flanking Strike: Good change. The Skill is still really really good but this prevents all the noobs spamming spamming without properly managing their Inititative. I’ve encountered so many S/D thiefs going 333333 and it was just too rewarding for pressing one button over and over. (Btw you will still be able to spam it just fine if you spec very high into Ini regen -> jumpers build)

Anyway, i cant wait to try Shadow Trap, it sounds really good. I also like that they are buffing Dancing Dagger because thats the only skill i dont use frequently on S/D (i dont use it at all) but the ini reduced to 3 isn’t helping it at all. Infil Strike is still superior, so no point in using it.

d/d BV gonna sneak up and own your kitten now u have 0 chance hope ur quick with that SS or they gonan 2 hit u

Where’s the diff between popping roll for ini and shadow return?

I’m gonna respond to both of Shiz’s posts here, I’ve been a die hard sword thief since beta. You claim to play s/d but cant see the ramifications of these, lets call them possible changes. First off, by choosing sword over dagger, your sacrificing damage for mobility and survival. You can gain that survival either through shadow arts (which fits d/p much better than s/d) or through copious amounts of mobility and select condi.

Sword shadow return was a main aspect of that mobility and the weakness on auto provided a decent amount of indirect damage mitigation, something thieves in general lack. with both of these items removed, s/d mobile builds and s/p are hurt drastically. Now you could play s/d daze build and go for shadow arts instead, but this build has already been destroyed in spvp and was never that great in pve/wvw anyhow.

As to your final question, whats the difference in popping sr and roll for ini? Well for one, you have to waste a utility slot on rfi, sr is from a weaponskill. Secondly if your depending on rfi as your stun break, every single class will be able to recharge there cc and burst BEFORE the cd on rfi expires.

Sword main hand still has much much better mobility than Dagger main hand so…

You’re talking like Shadow return got patched out of the game. You realize that it still works the same way it did before? The only difference is that you cannot break stun with it anymore… yes it’s a nerf but its not nerfing he skill from “very very very good” to “useless” so yea…

Also: RFI was an exmaple, can also insert Shadowstep / Infil signet

It seems like many thieves only started touching sword in may. The inf strike change damages the already low key venom build on both sets where shadow return has a duty to protect from CC so you can bring your support. Without there is greater need for a stun break which decreases by necessity the possible venoms from 4/3 to 3/2.
Considering S/P’s state that’s another nerf in build variety after the crippling nerf to its burst build in march. Considering the time between attacks for PW even if the delay is reduced that will mean 1 extra slakitten best. In a power crit build that is 500-900 DMG. Which sounds a lot in theory but with only 3-4 hits getting in ATM that’s about 2500-4800 damage instead of 1800-4300 DMG out of the total ~ 5-8k. Ideally with haste it’ll mean 3 more hits. With lack of mug crits this will still be lower than March though S/P thieves can bridge the gap a bit better with skill. With no stun break though you have to work even harder than you did before March with less DMG. Wot?.

Go to S/D and the cost itself is fine if the /D was better. If you find justifying dancing daggers hard for the INI cost you will continue to do so when FS cost goes up simultaneously. A shame CND doesn’t give more vuln. S/D is still less fleshed out then its pre-december form. Running a supportive S/D will drop as well since if you were arguing for venom share S/D vs S/P won’t even matter when the stun break is gone and Venom share anything can’t protect itself well enough. Especially given that SB needs mean staying on the outskirts does not work well.

S/P has much bigger issues in my opinion… it’s called retaliation.

And why ppl keep assuming? I play S/D since last december (used to play a daze build, now i play a hybrid stealth / acro double S/D build)

Dealing damage ATM is the larger issue when S/P could simply kill you before retall killed it 1v1 but got smashed in a group fight on retal. Now retal basically does more because you have to hit more to make up for lack of DMG. Why even come though when you have no damage even before the retaliation is considered. There’s so many ways to reduce retals significance to S/P going forward like a buff to SoM or Assassins Reward but if it lacks threat it doesn’t matter.

the buffs to d/d seem to create a new kind of tanky/condition build option. That was already there, but with the changes to SoM, deathblossom and steal, you can do stuff like run up to a zerg, steal to the middle, caltrops, death blossom spam and then dagger storm before cloak and daggering and stealing to another part of the zerg.

dont wanna get my hopes up too high, but there is some cool synergy in these changes. finally thief might be viable in zerg v zerg without just being a poor man’s ranger.

Tulisin, you do a good job breaking down the individual meaning of different changes, but I disagree regarding vulnerability. It is not a bad ability at all, it’s just body shot never got enough vuln on a target to see its uses. If you look at Osicats videos on the mesmer forum, you’ll see that he does a double shatter move. The first set of shatters only dazes and applies 25 stacks of vulnerability (the build traits for this). The second shatter uses mind wrack and kills the heavy target golem at 80% health.
My point is just that small amounts of vulnerability may seem worthless, but 25 stacks is great. The problem with bodyshot before was that by the time you got enough vulnerability to be worthwhile, the vulnerability was wearing off and you were out of initiative/health. This change sets up a new style of thief that spikes by attaining might/frenzy and vulnerability. For example, it may be viable to run p/d and d/p in the same build now….set up the spike in p/d while kiting, then roll for initiative-steal-cloak and dagger/swap to d/p/backstab, or swap to d/p and roll/powder/heartseeker/steal/backstab…

you also mentioned that anet was ambivalent about the initiative system. I think it’s because spamming a single op’d skill isnt fun for either anyone (on the giving or receiving end). I think what Anet wants is for people to have the option to spam skills, but for optimal play to require some thought, varied skill use and resource management. That then separates the pros from the noobs.

Siva Mira.3546:

Did people just misunderstand about stun-break and non-activation skill?

Even if they remove stun-break from IS/SR you will still able to use SR when you are stunned. The only different is that you will stay stun for its duration but your body will still return to the original place.

Did you misunderstand the horrible pathing changes made recently? that cause sr to NOT move you anywhere at all.

kittennit.7648:

Shemsu.8721:

kittennit.7648:

Shemsu.8721:

kittennit.7648:

Travlane.5948:

kittennit.7648:

dont really get all the complaints about S/D. I play S/D mainly and yes it’s a nerf but it’s not as bad as people make it out to be.

Stuns in this game are all quite short in duration, so even if it isnt a stunbreaker anymore it doesnt man we will be dead once the first stun hits us. Immobilize is much much stronger than stuns (imo) and infil strike still takes care of that just fine. We also still have Shadowstep / Roll for Ini / Infil Signet, etc.

Also, 2 Ini on Flanking Strike: Good change. The Skill is still really really good but this prevents all the noobs spamming spamming without properly managing their Inititative. I’ve encountered so many S/D thiefs going 333333 and it was just too rewarding for pressing one button over and over. (Btw you will still be able to spam it just fine if you spec very high into Ini regen -> jumpers build)

Anyway, i cant wait to try Shadow Trap, it sounds really good. I also like that they are buffing Dancing Dagger because thats the only skill i dont use frequently on S/D (i dont use it at all) but the ini reduced to 3 isn’t helping it at all. Infil Strike is still superior, so no point in using it.

d/d BV gonna sneak up and own your kitten now u have 0 chance hope ur quick with that SS or they gonan 2 hit u

Where’s the diff between popping roll for ini and shadow return?

I’m gonna respond to both of Shiz’s posts here, I’ve been a die hard sword thief since beta. You claim to play s/d but cant see the ramifications of these, lets call them possible changes. First off, by choosing sword over dagger, your sacrificing damage for mobility and survival. You can gain that survival either through shadow arts (which fits d/p much better than s/d) or through copious amounts of mobility and select condi.

Sword shadow return was a main aspect of that mobility and the weakness on auto provided a decent amount of indirect damage mitigation, something thieves in general lack. with both of these items removed, s/d mobile builds and s/p are hurt drastically. Now you could play s/d daze build and go for shadow arts instead, but this build has already been destroyed in spvp and was never that great in pve/wvw anyhow.

As to your final question, whats the difference in popping sr and roll for ini? Well for one, you have to waste a utility slot on rfi, sr is from a weaponskill. Secondly if your depending on rfi as your stun break, every single class will be able to recharge there cc and burst BEFORE the cd on rfi expires.

Sword main hand still has much much better mobility than Dagger main hand so…

You’re talking like Shadow return got patched out of the game. You realize that it still works the same way it did before? The only difference is that you cannot break stun with it anymore… yes it’s a nerf but its not nerfing he skill from “very very very good” to “useless” so yea…

Also: RFI was an exmaple, can also insert Shadowstep / Infil signet

Well I never said it was totally useless, i’m sure it’ll still work fine in pve where AI is unable to take advantage of you. In tpvp and wvw however? I still wont say completely useless, but no longer good enough to sacrifice daggers damage and stealth access, since you can gain the same amount of survive from shadow arts, you can even run dagger evade builds with acrobatics.

Also you cant point out shadowstep and infil signet as better than rfi for avoid cc burst combo’s. shadowstep cd is barely lower rfi, so the same applies. and infil signet, in spvp at least, you wont have another target available much of the time, so its not really avoiding burst if you shadowstep directly to your enemy..

Dude, i’m not saying that the skill didnt get nerfed it did. I’m just saying that it’s not breaking the weapon set atleast thats my feeling towards it right now, we will know for sure once the patch goes live.

Just for your information, i dont play PvE much i play almost exclusively WvW and sPvP / tPvP

iits changing the weapon set from NOT needing stealth to now it NEEDING stealth. u will not be able to shadow return if u are knocked down…back….pulled…pushed….stunned…dazed. it only was able to be used bc it was a stun breaker. now u can only use it when ur immobilized iced bleeding etc. HUGE change.

Tulisin.6945:

Sundering strikes: Vulnerability caused by this trait has been increased from 5 seconds to 10 seconds.
It looks like ANet wants to replace thieves’ defensive utility via weakness with offensive utility via Vulnerability. This is a good trait, but Vulnerability is still pretty bad.

oO?
Why that? Vulnerability is the BEST Debuff in PvE… If we can hold around 10 stacks with CnD and Sundering strikes it’s pretty good. Now we only need to stack might with our autoattack :P

Note to everyone- keep in mind that when you see the weakness duration reductions, this is because weakness was changed to a 25% chance for all attacks to fumble, so the duration is being reduced across the board on all professions. This means weakness itself is buffed because it’s going to help protect against things that hit hard now.

And now my pointless opinions/observations.
It seems to me that anet really wants to push conditions builds. They’re trying to make the class mechanic more important, which is kind of nice.

The 10 stacks vuln to body shot was nice, but at only 3 sec is such a short to take advantage of it.

The underwater nerf was kind of expected seeing as chaining evade was easy, but they should have reworked instead of the usually straight nerf. But underwater content across the board is pretty bad.

Also, crouze.3078 is right about how trickery affects steal recharge. It speeds up recharge rather than reducing cooldown. You can test it out yourself in the mists; 30 trickery= 34sec cd.

Lokheit.7943:

ensoriki.5789:

I believe that cooldown system applies to an Ele regeneration trait when used with a Staff if I can remember.

I can’t find it I will continue the search. Sure it was regeneration? Filtering for that boon doesn’t show it.

And I think it’s very hard for the game to keep track of cooldown on each foe you hit with a condition that others can use but only on your aplications.

This is a little late, but the per foe cooldown mechanic on ele skills exists for shocking aura, frost aura and glyph of elemental power.

regarding stuns – I believe Anet is trying to make stuns into thief kryptonite. so when people qq about thieves, everyone can just say – did you try stunning them?

This has the effect of making glass thieves much more vulnerable, which does something to counteract the other buffs that make them potentially more deadly.

The other buffs make non-glass thieves (like condi-focused and power-focused) more viable though and the stun changes won’t hurt those builds much (since they can survive a 2 second stun). I think that’s their goal; spread out the thief player base into interesting variations. And make full glass builds require more skill to play (i.e. saving the evades for the stuns).

The scary thing is that mesmers supposedly are getting buffs to interrupts, and have some decent ways to cause stuns, so you can expect to see some stunning mesmer builds.

regarding weakness, it got a much needed buff, but thieves got more limited access to it. I think in the past it was considered a poor man’s chill, and so it was fine to let thieves have it. Now it stops a burst, so it’s got limited duration. Thieves can still use it, but they need to anticipate the burst a bit. And it makes for more interesting play/counterplay. I weaken you, then expose myself hoping you blow some cooldowns or initiative, then you notice and wait it out, but that gives me a chance to go on the offensive.

one thing I find strange about the new change is that now almost all the venoms affect mobility (except poison). Not sure why they chose this, but it seems odd. It does encourage saving venoms, rather than using them all at once, since it lets you draw out movement control throughout a battle.

Patch notes could be bogus, too. I suspect some of the things are accurate, but others are not.

bobross.5034:

regarding stuns – I believe Anet is trying to make stuns into thief kryptonite. so when people qq about thieves, everyone can just say – did you try stunning them?

This has the effect of making glass thieves much more vulnerable, which does something to counteract the other buffs that make them potentially more deadly.

The other buffs make non-glass thieves (like condi-focused and power-focused) more viable though and the stun changes won’t hurt those builds much (since they can survive a 2 second stun). I think that’s their goal; spread out the thief player base into interesting variations. And make full glass builds require more skill to play (i.e. saving the evades for the stuns).

The scary thing is that mesmers supposedly are getting buffs to interrupts, and have some decent ways to cause stuns, so you can expect to see some stunning mesmer builds.

regarding weakness, it got a much needed buff, but thieves got more limited access to it. I think in the past it was considered a poor man’s chill, and so it was fine to let thieves have it. Now it stops a burst, so it’s got limited duration. Thieves can still use it, but they need to anticipate the burst a bit. And it makes for more interesting play/counterplay. I weaken you, then expose myself hoping you blow some cooldowns or initiative, then you notice and wait it out, but that gives me a chance to go on the offensive.

one thing I find strange about the new change is that now almost all the venoms affect mobility (except poison). Not sure why they chose this, but it seems odd. It does encourage saving venoms, rather than using them all at once, since it lets you draw out movement control throughout a battle.

Assuming forethought in this, perhaps they wanted venom thieves to have a niche as a movement control type duelist.

Make the players choose between:

Stealthy Burst Assassin
Acrobatic Swordsman
Stealthy DoT Condition Spec
Mobility Control Venom Spec

Torment isn’t going to do enough damage to control movement though (a stack of 3, even doing 200 damage per stack won’t encourage people to stop moving on it’s own), but if you’re referring to using it in conjunction with other means, then, yeah, it will help.

Fade.7658:

Torment isn’t going to do enough damage to control movement though (a stack of 3, even doing 200 damage per stack won’t encourage people to stop moving on it’s own), but if you’re referring to using it in conjunction with other means, then, yeah, it will help.

for the skill to be at all worth taking, it would either need to be on a reasonable cd, or apply more than 1 stack of torment per hit, or have the torment last a long time. There isnt enough info to determine that. Assuming the end result is respectable enough to warrant a skill slot; you can imagine a condi thief dropping caltrops and this, then spamming death blossom (with its new low initiative). creating a dilema for the opponent with movement (stay and take ticks from caltrops, or get out and take more dmg from torment), and when they do get out of the caltrops, using scorpion wire (on its new lower cd) to pull em back in.

Fade.7658:

Torment isn’t going to do enough damage to control movement though (a stack of 3, even doing 200 damage per stack won’t encourage people to stop moving on it’s own), but if you’re referring to using it in conjunction with other means, then, yeah, it will help.

Well yeah, I am referring to torment in conjunction with the chills, immobilizes, stuns, and other effects of the other venoms and skills. In other words, a niche type thief that can effectively impair your ability to move/run for an extended timeframe.

bobross.5034:

Fade.7658:

Torment isn’t going to do enough damage to control movement though (a stack of 3, even doing 200 damage per stack won’t encourage people to stop moving on it’s own), but if you’re referring to using it in conjunction with other means, then, yeah, it will help.

for the skill to be at all worth taking, it would either need to be on a reasonable cd, or apply more than 1 stack of torment per hit, or have the torment last a long time. There isnt enough info to determine that. Assuming the end result is respectable enough to warrant a skill slot; you can imagine a condi thief dropping caltrops and this, then spamming death blossom (with its new low initiative). creating a dilema for the opponent with movement (stay and take ticks from caltrops, or get out and take more dmg from torment), and when they do get out of the caltrops, using scorpion wire (on its new lower cd) to pull em back in.

I’m using the alleged leaked patch notes as a basis. Skale Venom wasn’t exactly all that great prior, and adding torment to it doesn’t make it all that appealing, given the supposed damage and duration if offers. Best case duration is 10 seconds, with 3 stacks.

Of course, I’m looking at it from a solo perspective. Venom sharing would make it shine if you had 2-3 other people applying it from your shared venoms.

so much drama over some “leaked”/fake patch notes LOL.

if they are anything near the real ones, I liked it since I still play D/D, we got a buff on our slow!

But Ill prob have to swap my Sbow for dual pistols …. Unload+interrupt > Sbow 5 since it will be the only usefull skill on Sbow.

CaakEE.7109:

so much drama over some “leaked”/fake patch notes LOL.

if they are anything near the real ones, I liked it since I still play D/D, we got a buff on our slow!

But Ill prob have to swap my Sbow for dual pistols …. Unload+interrupt > Sbow 5 since it will be the only usefull skill on Sbow.

There’s nothing wrong debating on a topic, regardless of the validity (or lack thereof) of the source, or accuracy. :P

Given A: Player has a 50% chance to land a critical hit
Given B: Player hits for 1000 and 2000 on a critical
Old Weakness: 50% of Non Critical hits are glancing blows (50% damage)
New Weakness: 25% of all hits are fumbles (50% damage)

Old Weakness: w/ out weakness 1000-1000-2000-2000 Total 6000
——————w/ weakness——-500-1000-2000-2000 Total 5500

New Weakness: w/out weakness 1000-1000-2000-2000 Total 6000
——————-w/ weakness A—-500—1000-2000-2000 Total 5500
——————-w/ weakness B—-1000-1000-2000-1000 Total 5000

this is under the assumption that every other hit is a critical and the 25% holds true for the new weakness on 4 hits only 1 fumbles. with all the weakness decreases (most in half or more/taken away) this is a huge hit especially to thieve’s damage mitigation. im willing to bet these are all if not mostly fake patch notes. we cant use stealth in spvp and now we cant use s/d really. :P cmon just take out the thief class and stop insulting our intellegence. ruining this game.

the problem with venom share is it uses the player’s own condition dmg stats, so only condi-builds would shine with it. and you wouldn’t make a condition dmg based team due to max bleed/torment stacks.

though I guess if you had a team that could easily get a few people to 25 bleed and 25 torment it would hit them like 38-63 stacks of bleeding dmg, which is sick.

Anubarak.3012:

Tulisin.6945:

Sundering strikes: Vulnerability caused by this trait has been increased from 5 seconds to 10 seconds.
It looks like ANet wants to replace thieves’ defensive utility via weakness with offensive utility via Vulnerability. This is a good trait, but Vulnerability is still pretty bad.

oO?
Why that? Vulnerability is the BEST Debuff in PvE… If we can hold around 10 stacks with CnD and Sundering strikes it’s pretty good. Now we only need to stack might with our autoattack :P

Depends on the cost of applying the vulnerability. Vuln is only heavily useful in PvE situations where the number of players is large enough to benefit from applying the vulnerability but not large enough to max it out. For stuff like Body Shot, the vulnerability was too expensive DPS-wise to make it worthwhile at the 5-man level, so the only place Body Shot was good was open-world events that had 10~ people, but no more or less. Proc vulnerability is significantly less costly, but carries the same issues of only being truly worthwhile in a small number of situations.

That isn’t even accounting for the massive effectiveness nosedive vulnerability takes if some of the people attacking the mob want to use condition-based damage. Vulnerability is supposed to be a support condition, but fails in so many ways at playing nice with others.

vulnerability sux! str8 up suxxxxxxxxxxxx! 3 secs? even if it was 6 secs thats only really usefull on 1 backstab which is like an extra 500 -650 dmg. pffft not worth setting it up or using it. lets say you use body shot which hits for like 700 dmg right….you could have done a nyumber of other skills for less/equal initiative and dont 2-3x more damage…where as 10% vulnerability in the best of scenarios gets you 650 dmg roughly. so at the very best of scenarios u dont even break even. still a useless skill unles like tulisin said u are in a dungeon /champ etc and have 5 people and ur job is to stack vulnerability and have 100% condition duration.

Travlane.5948:

still a useless skill unles like tulisin said u are in a dungeon /champ etc and have 5 people and ur job is to stack vulnerability and have 100% condition duration.

I said quite the opposite. Vulnerability is usually not worth using like that in a 5-person scenario. The group would be better off if the Body Shot spamming thief was just doing actual thief damage. Proc Vulnerability is a different beast, and it helps, but you probably won’t be able to tell the difference unless you have an insanely long boss fight.

yeah tulsin true but even if it is better to just str8 damage the enemy boss its still the only way you can use it. not saying its better but it is an option. if 6 people were attacking a boss it would outdamage. the total dmg is +150 ( 6 players hitting a mob with 25% vuln)

you can’t keep up the perma vuln even at bosses, because of 50% time penalty…
same with weakness (i hate this http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unshakable) ….which it would be like a nerf in pve…
since when mobs did crit ?!?

for pvp/wvw i understand that most have 50%++ crit rate….but pve mobs???
what can you do in 1.5sec of vuln from body shot?
add in a cripple or something useful…

The problem with Body Shot was never Body Shot, it was:

a.) Vulnerability is far too situational
b.) It has to resource-compete with Unload, which is the bread and butter damage skill

Therefore, what needs to happen is:

a.) A buff to Vulnerability to make it more useful
b.) A buff to Vital Shot and a reworking of Unload so that you aren’t resource starved by doing basic DPS and can afford to throw some utility in the mix.

Travlane.5948:

Given A: Player has a 50% chance to land a critical hit
Given B: Player hits for 1000 and 2000 on a critical
Old Weakness: 50% of Non Critical hits are glancing blows (50% damage)
New Weakness: 25% of all hits are fumbles (50% damage)

Old Weakness: w/ out weakness 1000-1000-2000-2000 Total 6000
——————w/ weakness——-500—500—2000-2000 Total 5000

New Weakness: w/out weakness 1000-1000-2000-2000 Total 6000
——————-w/ weakness A—-500—1000-2000-2000 Total 5500
——————-w/ weakness B—-1000-1000-2000-1000 Total 5000

this is under the assumption that every other hit is a critical and the 25% holds true for the new weakness on 4 hits only 1 fumbles. with all the weakness decreases (most in half or more/taken away) this is a huge hit especially to thieve’s damage mitigation. im willing to bet these are all if not mostly fake patch notes. we cant use stealth in spvp and now we cant use s/d really. :P cmon just take out the thief class and stop insulting our intellegence. ruining this game.

In your old weakness example you halved both of the non crits that’s 100%, not 50%. If the 50% held true then only one would be halved, so the total would be 5500.
Second, with more hits the A and B version for new weakness disappears (of course it’d just be the average of the two anyway.)

With the same givens:
No weakness- Average damage per hit = 1500

Old weakness- normal attacks deal average of 750 damage, critcal hits still deal full 2000 damage. Average damage per hit= 1375

New weakness- all attacks now deal an average of 87.5% normal damage
average damage per hit= 1312.5

As for body shot, I think if they just kept the old duration it would be worthwhile. Vulnerability generally only shines when you’re fighting as a team since it increases ally’s damage as well, but 3 sec isn’t much time for allies to notice and take advantage of it.

And again… Huge nerfs for thieves.. goodbye s/d… R.I.P

navzar sorry u are right lol fixing it now!…fixed as of now. its still only going to be better if you get super lucky. or it could be really reaaaaaaally worse if u get super unlucky which generally happens with RNG gods at work. :P

so basically i layman’s terms it has a slight potential to save you more damage but also the same exact potential to receive more damage than the old weakness. risk lvl is higher.

Side Note: i did the math above considering a player opposing you had 50% crit chance. most players dont have high crit chance…usually only thieves and aprox 7-8% of other players/classes run high crit. that said…… MOST of the time the OLD weakness would have been better bc MOST hits would NOT be critical and half of those would be 50% less damage vs 25%. :P overall the old weakness is better hands down.

Kind of yeah. If an enemy specs a lot into crits, then it’s stronger. If they don’t crit at all, then it’s weaker. If they really wanted to punish glass cannons, then they could just made weakness reduce crit chance, or turn a % of crits into regular damage (still proccing traits though).

Most classes with furry have an easy time keeping 50% crit up in their balanced builds though, so this one will probably be a bit better or around equal for all professions imo.
Problem is thieves run glass often, so old weakness is better for them because even low crit builds hurt them easily.